Forgotten Realms novels to game

[Tyrant]

I have read quite a few Forgotten Realms novels over the years. There are a few things that pop up with reasonable frequency in the novels that I don't see rules for in the 3.0/3.5 material that I have (though I could have easily overlooked something). For instance, the idea of draining magic items of their energy to empower someone happens quite a bit but I don't see any rules covering it. So with that in mind I have a few questions if anyone can help.

1) Are there rules for draining items, wards, etc. of their magic to empower someone/something else?

2) Permanent or virtually permanent wards are mentioned frequently. Barring something like a Mythal, is there a way to achieve something like this and where would the rules be?

3) The concept of layered wards, being added to over centuries, pops up occasionally. Sometimes they have managed to merge into a singular work of magic. Is there anything on the rules front to cover any of that?

[Firest Kathon]

For 1) I think a spellthief can steal an ongoing spell effect to power his own spellcasting.

For 2), this can be achieved with resetting traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#reset) (both mundane and magic) as well as the Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) spell. There are also some protective spells which are inherently permanent. I would guess there are also rules in the Stronghold Builder's Handbook.

For 3) I do not know of any rules for that.

[Telonius]

For 1, strangely enough the clearest rule that covers it comes from Eberron. Artificers get the "Retain Essence" ability at 5th, which allows them to drain an item of its magic and place a portion of that in the Craft Reserve (which they can use instead of XP in crafting other items).

[Bronk]

1) Are there rules for draining items, wards, etc. of their magic to empower someone/something else?

2) Permanent or virtually permanent wards are mentioned frequently. Barring something like a Mythal, is there a way to achieve something like this and where would the rules be?

3) The concept of layered wards, being added to over centuries, pops up occasionally. Sometimes they have managed to merge into a singular work of magic. Is there anything on the rules front to cover any of that?

1: A faerun specialty is Spellfire, which does this. I agree that Artificers fit the bill too.

2: I agree that this is probably mostly permanency.

3: I'd think part of the appeal of the Forgotten Realms books is that they draw on preexisting books and game lore, especially novels written by long running authors like Greenwood and Salvatore. In this case, they're probably riffing off of magic that was mentioned as being most recently used in Myth Drannor - basically spell mantles and spell webs of different kinds.

Well, either that, or there's nothing stopping you in game from casting and recasting ward spells in the same spot.

[Manyasone]

As to the third question, I believe the OP is talking about Mythals. Maybe in some early third edition faerun specific books you can find Info. Else you'll need to dig around Second edition Forgotten Realms

[Tyrant]

Thanks for the replies. For the first, I hadn't considered Spellfire but at least from the novels that would seem to be in line with what I was thinking if I remember those books correctly. It would be something similar to how that was depicted anyway. Generally the way it appears to work in novels is that a spellcaster has a magic item (sometimes a generic magic bobble, sometimes something ancient that is almost literally dripping magic) and they drain it (usually causing it to crumble to dust) to either fuel some spell they are presently working or to "power up" for something bigger they have planned.

Permanency seems to be the non-Mythal answer that I am looking for on the second question.

The third is more of a curiosity question than anything. I have no idea what I would even do with it in a game. The source I was thinking of was the wards of Candlekeep. Before Larloch drained their magic their description made it seem like they had been laid in layers over centuries causing them to merge in some places and leaving very few holes while becoming some type of massive accumulation of magic energy (thus why they were being targeted to be drained). It wasn't a Mythal.

[Darth Ultron]

1)Spell thieves and Spellfire as noted. Also the Incantatrix and the Hellbreaker. And the PH2 has some stuff about stealing xp. The spell Spell Engine absorbs spells. Energy Transformation Field absorbs magic to power an effect. Though for the most part this is a 2E thing, that had stealing magic spells and such.

2.A lot of ''ward'' spells are Permanent or long lasting. Like arcane lock or guards and wards. A ''ward'' might also be a magic item or wondrous architecture or a magical trap. And again 2E had much more of this...

3.No, not exactly. But generations of spellcasters could sure fill a place with permanent magical spells, items and traps. They would not be ''linked'' exactly...

Questions 2 and 3 do go back to 2E, with a single spell: Wardmist. This was the basic, permanent ward spell in 2E FR and could do all of those things. It was one of the ''several page spells'' that never made it into 3E+

[Rangô]

Hey there!
Maybe it's not what you're are looking for answer 3, but I guess you'll apreciate it and I remember it made appearance in some novels. The Faerzress and Node Magic of Underdark p.48. It's like fountains of magic radiation, close to what a Mythal is.

[Âmesang]

Awhile back I had attempted to stat out a touch-range spell based on the artificer's retain essence ability, allowing you to drain a magic item of it's power in the form of XP and using this XP solely for casting spells that have an XP cost (limited wish, permanency, vision, &c). The hardest part of creating a new spell is making sure it doesn't replicate a pre-existing spell, so I hope I didn't miss some obscure spell in some obscure book whilst doing my "arcane research." :smalltongue:

Also if epic spells are an option than page 44 of Lost Empires of Faerûn details the mythal seed and the creation of your own mythals from scratch (and lists corrections to the elven high mage and Netherese arcanist classes, too).

I know magic items can't contain the power of an epic spell… but what if it were reversed? Is it potentially possible to use the mythal seed to try and create a mythallar? (Mainly because I'd like to rewrite Proctiv's move mountain to have a more sensible Spellcraft DC and have it follow 2nd Edition's 10th-level spell version more closely.)

EDIT: More 2nd Edition-based information can likely be found in Netheril: Empire of Magic and Encyclopedia Arcana (including 10th-, 11th-, and the only 12th-level spell, Karsus' avatar). Love the SPELLJAMMER™ references in the latter, such as Proctive's breach crystal sphere.

[Randomthom]

I recall having similar thoughts when reading the Sundering series, particularly in The Herald by Ed Greenwood, the finale of the series.

SPOLIER ALERT
Candlekeep in particular, with it's magic wards described as being permanent and layer upon layer of various warding spells added to over the years. Also in the final few chapters, with the two brothers in the crypts beneath Myth Drannor and later Larloch eclipsing that.

To me though, I don't try to think too hard about the rules when reading the novels. I also accept that, particularly with Ed Greenwood's novels, many of these characters (The Simbul, Elminster, Larloch) are crazy-high-level spellcasters and, certainly in Larloch's case, using custom spells that nobody else knows and thus don't need to be "ruled" in.

It is only when the authors are writing about the more mundane characters I consider how I would represent their actions in the rules (and again, not too hard).

I recall seeing a rather ranty (almost angry) forum post on the candlekeep forums once where the OP was complaining that for Elminster to have used as many lightning spells in one day as he did, he would have to have an int score of at least 47 or something similar. You can take this line of thinking too far sometimes and it either lessens your enjoyment of the worlds these authors have created or lessens your respect for this mostly solid ruleset that was created for gamers. They represent the same world but the novels, rightly, put artistic license above adherance to game mechanics.

[Bronk]

And who knows? Maybe Elminster secretly has the Storm Bolt reserve feat and it was just being described differently? :)

[Âmesang]

Epic Level Handbook Elminster has an Intelligence of 27. Close enough? :smalltongue:

Honestly that reminds me of reading Greenwood's The Wizards Three short stories, wondering how many Silent, Stilled mage hands and prestidigitations he, Dalamar, and Mordenkainen had prepared, despite the fact that those were all 2nd Edition (except for the last story in DRAGON'S last printed issue).

[Gildedragon]

His pearly whites are pearls of power
Or maybe he's hiding a string of pearls of power on himself elsewhere... Somewhere where he'll not get pickpocketed

[Tvtyrant]

I have read quite a few Forgotten Realms novels over the years. There are a few things that pop up with reasonable frequency in the novels that I don't see rules for in the 3.0/3.5 material that I have (though I could have easily overlooked something). For instance, the idea of draining magic items of their energy to empower someone happens quite a bit but I don't see any rules covering it. So with that in mind I have a few questions if anyone can help.

1) Are there rules for draining items, wards, etc. of their magic to empower someone/something else?

2) Permanent or virtually permanent wards are mentioned frequently. Barring something like a Mythal, is there a way to achieve something like this and where would the rules be?

3) The concept of layered wards, being added to over centuries, pops up occasionally. Sometimes they have managed to merge into a singular work of magic. Is there anything on the rules front to cover any of that?

1. This is a hold over from AD&D, where enchant magic item was a spell that stole your life force.

2. Hallow and Unhallow allow you to attach permanent magic effects to an area, I would use those as a reference.

3. See above.

[Tyrant]

Questions 2 and 3 do go back to 2E, with a single spell: Wardmist. This was the basic, permanent ward spell in 2E FR and could do all of those things. It was one of the ''several page spells'' that never made it into 3E+
Thanks. Do you happen to know what book(s) I could find Wardmist in?

Hey there!
Maybe it's not what you're are looking for answer 3, but I guess you'll apreciate it and I remember it made appearance in some novels. The Faerzress and Node Magic of Underdark p.48. It's like fountains of magic radiation, close to what a Mythal is.
Yeah I have been reading about Node Magic and might end up trying to incorporate that if I do anything with this.

Also if epic spells are an option than page 44 of Lost Empires of Faerûn details the mythal seed and the creation of your own mythals from scratch (and lists corrections to the elven high mage and Netherese arcanist classes, too).

I know magic items can't contain the power of an epic spell… but what if it were reversed? Is it potentially possible to use the mythal seed to try and create a mythallar? (Mainly because I'd like to rewrite Proctiv's move mountain to have a more sensible Spellcraft DC and have it follow 2nd Edition's 10th-level spell version more closely.)

EDIT: More 2nd Edition-based information can likely be found in Netheril: Empire of Magic and Encyclopedia Arcana (including 10th-, 11th-, and the only 12th-level spell, Karsus' avatar). Love the SPELLJAMMER™ references in the latter, such as Proctive's breach crystal sphere.
I have thought about trying to do something with mythallars. I know in one of the novels Telamont Tanthul mentions that they could create more floating cities with the current version (3.x) of magic.

I recall having similar thoughts when reading the Sundering series, particularly in The Herald by Ed Greenwood, the finale of the series.

SPOLIER ALERT
Candlekeep in particular, with it's magic wards described as being permanent and layer upon layer of various warding spells added to over the years. Also in the final few chapters, with the two brothers in the crypts beneath Myth Drannor and later Larloch eclipsing that.
While what I am talking about has happened in other novels, it was reading this one recently that got me to wondering about it from a rules standpoint.

To me though, I don't try to think too hard about the rules when reading the novels. I also accept that, particularly with Ed Greenwood's novels, many of these characters (The Simbul, Elminster, Larloch) are crazy-high-level spellcasters and, certainly in Larloch's case, using custom spells that nobody else knows and thus don't need to be "ruled" in.

It is only when the authors are writing about the more mundane characters I consider how I would represent their actions in the rules (and again, not too hard).

I recall seeing a rather ranty (almost angry) forum post on the candlekeep forums once where the OP was complaining that for Elminster to have used as many lightning spells in one day as he did, he would have to have an int score of at least 47 or something similar. You can take this line of thinking too far sometimes and it either lessens your enjoyment of the worlds these authors have created or lessens your respect for this mostly solid ruleset that was created for gamers. They represent the same world but the novels, rightly, put artistic license above adherance to game mechanics.
Yeah I don't try to dissect the novels on a rules level when I read them. The characters are meant to be larger than life and rules need to come second to the narrative. In these particular cases I was wondering about them because they pop up in multiple books and that usually means there is something like them in the rules somewhere. I am definitely not looking to try to figure out how many of what spells any particular character can cast during a day.

[Darth Ultron]

Thanks. Do you happen to know what book(s) I could find Wardmist in?


Volo's guide to all things magical would be the best place. I think that one is even available for free online over at Candelkeep.


I also accept that, particularly with Ed Greenwood's novels, many of these characters (The Simbul, Elminster, Larloch) are crazy-high-level spellcasters and, certainly in Larloch's case, using custom spells that nobody else knows and thus don't need to be "ruled" in.


I would think that nearly every spellcaster over 5th level and an intelligence of 10 would use custom spells. And it makes in more sense if you live in a world with ''rules'' like counterspelling and ''everyone knows all about every single spell ever made with a simple roll''. It would just make sense to use custom spells.

I recall seeing a rather ranty (almost angry) forum post on the candlekeep forums once where the OP was complaining that for Elminster to have used as many lightning spells in one day as he did, he would have to have an int score of at least 47 or something similar. [/QUOTE]

While it is a bit crazy to try and match rules to everything, also consider:

A)Not everything is what it seems. When character shoots a wild hog with a lightning bolt, there is a good chance they are not using the by-the-book 3rd level spell. And it might be more ''least lighting bolt'' like a 1st level spell. So a ''5th'' level caster could shoot out 10 ''lighting bolts'', but of different spells, not all the 3rd level one.

B)There are lots of rules. Some things that look impossible are not. A metamagic feat can make ''scorching ray'' into ''lightning ray'' for example, and the novel might not ''say'' all that in all spelled out rules language.

C)Magic items. There are plenty that allow a character to do lots of things, like permanent mage hand. And every time they ''use magic'', they might not be ''casting a spell'' exactly.

For all the ''ward'' type magics in 3X you will want:

The DMG and Dungeonscape for magical traps, and also Boon ''traps''.

The Stronghold Builders Guide for all the magical architecture

The Dramconian for Lair Wards.

[BWR]

Thanks. Do you happen to know what book(s) I could find Wardmist in?

Wizard's Spell Compendium vol. IV. has it. that series and the Priest's Spell Compendium are your best bet for finding any pre 3.x spell. They don't have all, but they have a lot.
It's also one of the those spells I haven't gotten to in my ever so slow conversion of all spells to PF, mostly because it's another of Greenwood's overly complicated, either-laughably weak or ridiculously strong special spells. Never writes a paragraph where a page will do.