How do you plan encounters for players who simply remove single enemies from combat?

[MonkeySage]

One particular player has a penchant for casting the "Create Pit" spell right underneathe the vast majority of my non flying encounters. In the confined space of a dungeon, this is incredibly inconvenient for me. I can't just send them a bunch of weak enemies because then there's no challenge, but there's no challenge from a single strong enemy that cant' fly either....

Case in point: The rat familiar Nel has sealed a nabasu in the chamber behind him. Nel wants the players to destroy the demon that his master brought into this world so many years ago.

So, the players come in, that one player immediately casts "Create Pit" and for all intents and purposes the demon is defeated....

How can I counter this?


(Lets say it wasn't a nabasu... turns out the nabasu can fly)

[Zanos]

You can climb out of a pit. DC 25, but you get a -5 to the DC from bracing yourself against the corner. A sufficiently large creature could get a -10 from bracing itself against opposing walls. Also, there's a reflex save on create pit. But yes, a 2nd level spell disabling a single creature for a few rounds on a failed save is fairly normal. The creature isn't really dead, it can still use it's ranged options against anything that tries shooting down at it.

But yeah, creatures that can't fly, can't climb, and don't have ranged attacks don't do great in create pit if they fail their save. That seems normal to me.

[MonkeySage]

I know, I edited my post on that.

[Amphetryon]

Have the enemies be active. They should take an interest in patrolling their environs, either personally or with scouts and magic. If the PCs are always allowed to act before the enemies know the PCs' tactics - or even know that the PCs are dangerous - the enemies are having their effectiveness curtailed before Initiative is ever rolled.

Speaking of Initiative, getting the drop on the PCs goes hand-in-hand with the preceding thoughts.

Having enemies spread out over several levels within a room - on chairs/tables/shelves, whatever - would also help, reducing the 'Create Pit' tactic to the efficacy of a single-target Sleep spell.

[Zanos]

I know, I edited my post on that.
Yeah, my bad. Edited mine with actual help.

[squiggit]

Create Pit gives a reflex save to anyone standing where it was opened.

So... don't throw only enemies with terrible reflex saves at the party?

[Wonton]

Make 2 copies of important enemies, honestly. An encounter from an AP I was running had a Witch - the first time the party faced a spellcaster, since they were only level 2. I didn't want her to get charged and instakilled by the Barbarian, which had a very real chance of happening. So I literally just added in another Witch - less powerful (her younger apprentice), but this way there was 2 threats so that if 1 got eliminated, there was still a spellcaster remaining.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Consider encounters with more of a distributed threat.

For example, the players are attacking a cave full or orcs. You could have a single Orc barbarian 4 or two Orc Barbarian 2s out front. Create Pit will deal with them very well. On the other hand, you could have 6 Orc warriors and an orc bard warchanter (bard 2) out front spread out in such that it's hard to get more than 2 in a pit (maybe one is lounging against the cave wall, one is taking a leak, one is poking the firepit, two are playing dice, one is whittling, and the bard is composing a poem. If you put any one (or even any two) members of that group in the bottom of a pit, it doesn't impact the encounter too much. There's still four more and if the bard is at the bottom of the pit, he can still boost all the other orcs (which is most of what he's there for).

[Waker]

One good rule of thumb is to not rely on single enemy encounters. Even if the monster is considerably stronger, the lack of action economy plays in favor of the party, especially if they can land debuffs on the opponent. Have your boss monster get some support from a slew of lower level creatures who can distract, flank and do whatever else.
Also how about enemies with other means of movement like climbing or burrowing? Throw a giant spider or a bullette at them.

[OldTrees1]

Consider a 1-2-4 encounter. Have 1 prime enemy with 2 lieutenants and 4 minions. If the prime enemy is temporarily removed then the lieutenants are still a challenge. Meanwhile the minions know restoring the prime enemy or a lieutenant is a better tactic than contributing directly (although they could still contribute directly).

Off the cuff example:
1 Ogre, 2 Orcs, 4 Goblins (don't ask). If a pit is created under the Ogre, a pair of Goblins would lower & anchor a rope while the party suffers the 2 Orcs and remaining 2 Goblins. So it would only slightly slow the Ogre & remove 2 Goblins rather than remove the Ogre.

Side Question: How confined are your dungeons? Are we talking 30'x30' rooms?

[MonkeySage]

The room with the demon is 25x40.
The level below contains a huge chamber, though, where the players will encounter a mythic lich.

[Manyasone]

Create pit, a level 2 spell with a duration measured in rounds and a max depth of 30 feet locks down a demon... Do you have some obscure houserules floating around?

[daremetoidareyo]

Dispel magic being used as a counterspell is another way to go about this. Some enemies should actively be prepared for spell negation. Not every battle, but real thoughtful enemies would occasionally put counter-magic efforts in most forward scouting groups.

It uses up an opposing spell caster spell, but doesn't instakill the player, while still frustrating the PC. Especially if the caster takes a second turn to negate spell buffs. This makes the beatsticks have to develop tactics wherein they need to go after the opposing caster and be able to stop the oppositional beatsticks from getting their caster.

[OldTrees1]

The room with the demon is 25x40.
The level below contains a huge chamber, though, where the players will encounter a mythic lich.

Ah so you do have enough space for a handful of foes so the 1-2-4 design should work well in some cases.

[AslanCross]

I'm fairly certain almost all demons have greater teleport at will.

In any case I'm with the guys who say that single-monster encounters aren't as threatening as the game says they are. Unless they have an incredible mobility advantage (dragon flight or teleport at will), excellent action economy (Beholders), or powerful mass stun effects (Drowned's drowning aura, or a Glabrezu's at-will Reverse Gravity), solo monsters typically get smashed by a party simply due to action economy.

[Gildedragon]

If a PC is getting good at defeating your challenges with a single tactic it is time to start changing your own tactics

Incorporeal enemies. Invisible foes. Traps. Bigger caverns.
Scrying sensors that have alerted the lich of the party and their tactics. (Try to send the lich into a pit: counterspell ; try again: the lich can fly and was just pretending to walk)

[Wonton]

Consider a 1-2-4 encounter. Have 1 prime enemy with 2 lieutenants and 4 minions. If the prime enemy is temporarily removed then the lieutenants are still a challenge. Meanwhile the minions know restoring the prime enemy or a lieutenant is a better tactic than contributing directly (although they could still contribute directly).

I love this, this is a great rule of thumb. I've been designing encounters more or less like this for a long time, but "1-2-4" is a great mnemonic device.

Now that I think about it, I've used something like 1-2-4-8 for larger battles. Something like 1 big bad, 2 supporting spellcasters, 4 burly melee guys (or 4 archers for a different feel), 8 minions. Works great, though it does make the fight run a fair bit longer.

[Quertus]

Make 2 copies of important enemies, honestly. An encounter from an AP I was running had a Witch - the first time the party faced a spellcaster, since they were only level 2. I didn't want her to get charged and instakilled by the Barbarian, which had a very real chance of happening. So I literally just added in another Witch - less powerful (her younger apprentice), but this way there was 2 threats so that if 1 got eliminated, there was still a spellcaster remaining.

I once had a player who created a rather effective grappler, and I had the same problem (even when using 1-2-4 / minions / etc, which usually helps). Oooh, I've got this cool new monster - how will the party react? What clever tactics will they employ. Oh, they'll just have grapplematic grapple it again, like they do every monster. :smallfrown:

So I started putting in 2 of any monster if I wanted to see how they'd deal with it.

I don't like the idea of making all your monsters immune to the player's trick - that punishes the player for playing well. But surely some of your monsters should be immune.

[Pugwampy]

Give that wizard his own medicine . Use the pit spell on him . :smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

When you employ single opponents, you'll have to keep in mind that the players will have action economy on their side. Thus, it takes some additional preparations:
- Try to give them decent defenses (be they numeric saves/AC/HP, various immunities and rerolls, hide/invisibility/etc. based, terrain or whatever combination there-of)
- Try to in particular give them meaningful ways to contribute with all their actions (swifts and immediates included)
- Consider some options that grant extra actions
- Use AOE effects against the PCs, particularly the CC to try and pick them off individually
- On a caster-type, consider summon-type effects

You could also leave it as a puzzle encounter (players have to figure out its weakness or it becomes extremely hard; things like Hydras or many swallow whole burrowers are like this by default), or a glass cannon who is likely to kill/incapacitate a PC and then die. However, generally I do prefer using multiple opponents unless there's a very good reason for the enemy to be alone.

For more interactive, epic fights though, single enemies generally need to be able to shrug off much of what the players are throwing at him. Create Pit in particular is hardly that big a problem between the Reflex-save (including a chance to reroll), the trivialization by flight/burrowing/earthgliding/incorporeality/etc. and the option of climbing/teleporting/whatever out even after it happens. It mostly bothers humanoid bruisers. Even there though, if you look into the saves and the rerolls a bit, you can make it rather unlikely that they'd be completely helpless against it.

[Eno Remnant]

A good strategy would be to send a small force at the players, with one guy the clear leader. What the players don't know is that this is a tactic the leader devised, and he is actually disguised as one of the mooks, with one of them disguised as him.

Player drops mook in pit, has a very nasty shock when apparent mook takes him down. Simple yet effective, and definitely a feasible tactic for a clever enemy.