Slight Change to the Healer Class

[AnimeTheCat]

Hey playground, what do you think the impact would be if I changed healers from prepared spell casters to spontaneous, they get their whole spell list (like beguilers) when they can cast spells of that level, and they keep their spell progression?

Personally, due to the limited spell list, I don't see any problem with it. But maybe that makes it cheese-worthy for some random prestige class that I don't know about or something like that. What do you guys think? Have you done this before? If you have what was the effect? Did anything change? If not, what has stopped you (other than "Cleric is better". That's not what this thread is about)? Do you see the potential of any problems?

[eggynack]

The class will become worse at the baseline. One of the big assets for the healer is that they can cast sanctified spells, and it shifts them up a tier or two. Really strong and versatile list, that. It can plausibly make them better if you pull a lot of extra spell sources, because getting spells glommed onto the list is one of the classic beguiler tricks, but it's still not necessarily better than a pile of sanctified spells.

[AnimeTheCat]

The class will become worse at the baseline. One of the big assets for the healer is that they can cast sanctified spells, and it shifts them up a tier or two. Really strong and versatile list, that. It can plausibly make them better if you pull a lot of extra spell sources, because getting spells glommed onto the list is one of the classic beguiler tricks, but it's still not necessarily better than a pile of sanctified spells.

I would really rather avoid bringing tiers in to this discussion if at all possible, however any prepared casting class can cast sanctified spells so I don't feel that the ability to cast those spells changes the tier of a class at all.

I will say that your point does present a problem. BoED does say that Clerics can cast them spontaneously, like CLW, so I would feel comfortable still allowing the Healer class to do the same. I doubt that a healer casting sanctified spells could be any more game breaking than a cleric doing the same.

[eggynack]

I would really rather avoid bringing tiers in to this discussion if at all possible, however any prepared casting class can cast sanctified spells so I don't feel that the ability to cast those spells changes the tier of a class at all.
Any prepared casting class can indeed cast sanctified spells, but the healer is the only one whose base list sucks. Remove the sanctified spells from the cleric list and you still have one of the most robust lists in the game. Remove them from the healer and the healer has one of the least robust lists in the game. The sanctified spell list, on its own, is something like a tier three or four ability.


I will say that your point does present a problem. BoED does say that Clerics can cast them spontaneously, like CLW, so I would feel comfortable still allowing the Healer class to do the same. I doubt that a healer casting sanctified spells could be any more game breaking than a cleric doing the same.

Sure, go ahead. Just noting a potential problem. It's not more game breaking than a cleric, but I've got to think that a game where a healer is intended to be is going to be lower optimization. This whole thing definitely falls somewhere around tier three, so make of that what you will.

[Troacctid]

If you add sanctified spells to its spell list, then yes, it will make the class much better. This is what I do in my games. I also give them all the healing spells from the Spell Compendium, the ability to turn undead as a cleric, and the ability to choose either Charisma or Wisdom as their casting stat. The class has a lot of room for buffs before it can compete with cleric.

[eggynack]

If you add sanctified spells to its spell list, then yes, it will make the class much better. This is what I do in my games.
You're not really adding them. They're just kinda already there. Such is the nature of the rules.

[TaiLiu]

You're not really adding them. They're just kinda already there. Such is the nature of the rules.
I think what Troacctid is saying is that you'd be adding the sanctified spells to the spontanteous-casting Healer, so it'd do away with the "will become worse at the baseline" problem.

[AnimeTheCat]

If you add sanctified spells to its spell list, then yes, it will make the class much better. This is what I do in my games. I also give them all the healing spells from the Spell Compendium, the ability to turn undead as a cleric, and the ability to choose either Charisma or Wisdom as their casting stat. The class has a lot of room for buffs before it can compete with cleric.

I like the idea of changing their casting Stat to charisma. Makes them more SAD, which is always good. As for expanding their spell list, this is an idea for a lower power game where the players don't want to play full casters like druid, wizard, cleric, etc. For the most part they want to play more specialized classes. In leu of cleric someone wants to play a healer with sacred vow, vow of poverty, vow of non violence, and vow of peace. Their character concept is very well thought out and I don't feel that they will be too over powered for the game I have planned. I will need to look at the other healing spells from spell compendium before I pass a verdict on making that change. Could you possibly post a list of the spells you use so I can use that as a starting point please?

[Troacctid]

I will need to look at the other healing spells from spell compendium before I pass a verdict on making that change. Could you possibly post a list of the spells you use so I can use that as a starting point please?
Taken from the Spell Index (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=healing):


Name
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cleardot.gif (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=healing&tablesort=1)
Source
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cleardot.gif (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=healing&tablesort=2)
Page
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cleardot.gif (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=healing&tablesort=3)
School
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cleardot.gif (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=healing&tablesort=4)
Class/Level
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cleardot.gif (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=healing&tablesort=5)
Range
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cleardot.gif (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=healing&tablesort=6)
T/E/A
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cleardot.gif (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=healing&tablesort=7)


close wounds
SpC
48
conjuration (healing)
cleric 2
close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
target


delay disease
SpC
63
conjuration (healing)
cleric 1, druid 1
touch
target


faith healing
SpC
87
conjuration (healing)
blackguard 1, cleric 1, paladin 1
touch
target


fortunate fate
SpC
99
conjuration (healing)
cleric 7
touch
target


heal animal companion
SpC
110
conjuration (healing)
druid 5, ranger 3
touch
target


healing lorecall
SpC
110
divination
cleric 2, druid 2, ranger 1
personal
target


healthful rest
SpC
111
conjuration (healing)
bard 1, cleric 1, druid 1
close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
target


panacea
SpC
152
conjuration (healing)
cleric 4, druid 5
touch
target


positive energy aura
SpC
161
conjuration (healing)
cleric 4
personal
area


rejuvenation cocoon
SpC
172
conjuration (healing)
druid 5
touch
target


renewal pact
SpC
173
conjuration (healing)
cleric 7, Pact 7
touch
target


restoration, mass
SpC
174
conjuration (healing)
cleric 7
close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
target


revenance
SpC
175
conjuration (healing)
bard 6, blackguard 4, cleric 4, paladin 4
touch
target


revive outsider
SpC
175
conjuration (healing)
cleric 6
touch
target


revivify
SpC
176
conjuration (healing)
cleric 5
touch
target


seek eternal rest
SpC
182
conjuration (healing)
paladin 3
personal
target


stabilize
SpC
204
conjuration (healing)
paladin 2, cleric 2
n/a
area


vigor
SpC
229
conjuration (healing)
cleric 3, druid 3
touch
target


vigor, greater
SpC
229
conjuration (healing)
cleric 5, druid 5
touch
target


vigor, lesser
SpC
229
conjuration (healing)
cleric 1, druid 1
touch
target


vigor, mass lesser
SpC
229
conjuration (healing)
cleric 3, druid 3
20 ft.
target


vigorous circle
SpC
229
conjuration (healing)
cleric 6, druid 6
20 ft.
target



Heal animal companion works on your unicorn companion. Close wounds is lowered to 2nd level, as per the updated version.

[Thurbane]

Hey playground, what do you think the impact would be if I changed healers from prepared spell casters to spontaneous, they get their whole spell list (like beguilers) when they can cast spells of that level, and they keep their spell progression?

I've seen this as a fairly common homebrew fix for Healers (along with making them single-stat casters, and expanding their spell list).

As already raised above, unless Sanctified spells are in play, it will very much help their versatility and playability.

I have a real soft spot for Healers, and often have them as NPCs in my games.

[nedz]

I do this already in one game - but then I did this with all Vancian casters.

[stack]

I played a charisma only healer with an expanded spell list similar to the above (sanctified spells, SC spells, etc) and it worked. Certainly not over powered.

[AnimeTheCat]

I've seen this as a fairly common homebrew fix for Healers (along with making them single-stat casters, and expanding their spell list).

As already raised above, unless Sanctified spells are in play, it will very much help their versatility and playability.

I have a real soft spot for Healers, and often have them as NPCs in my games.

I commonly use healers as NPCs in temples with a Cleric or three (depending on the temple size) as the head priests and paladins as the guards. I too have pretty soft spot for healers. My favorite character was a vows healer that we played in a campaign that ended in a raid on a vampire stronghold. That was really fun for me because the roles changed and I became the tank/damage dealer throwing heals and mass CLW and stuff at hoards of undead. good times.

It appears that even with the expanded spell list and making them single attribute casters they didn't overshadow anyone in a "normal" game, but do you think it would be too much when compared to weaker classes or do you think it will fit in just fine? This is one of my first real experiences with making changes to classes like this so I'm just trying to make sure I don't unsettle what little balance the game does have.

[Psyren]

eggy is correct, this change will make them actively weaker unless you houserule further. On its own, their list is just a whole lot of ways of doing the same thing (keeping people alive) until they get Gate; Sancitified Spells break them out of that comfort zone with a host of offensive and utility magics.


I would really rather avoid bringing tiers in to this discussion if at all possible, however any prepared casting class can cast sanctified spells so I don't feel that the ability to cast those spells changes the tier of a class at all.

Well, you asked what the impact was. Tiers are part of that, even if you avoid using that specific word. (You can use something like "capability" instead if that's more palatable, but it doesn't change the answer.)