Spheres of Power: War Handbook Open Beta

[A.J.Gibson]

Drop Dead Studios is producing a series of expansions for the Spheres of Power alternate magic system, each expanding upon a single sphere. I'm working on the War sphere, which has just gone into open beta (hopefully for real, this time). Comments can be made on the document or in this thread. I won't be monitoring Paizo boards regularly.

War:The Battlemage's Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wKYQDiexOl7efIFLp_1nfJIlj9ky04senq8l6WbweQk/edit?usp=sharing)

[ImperatorV]

Love the Ghost Sovereign. Some stuff about it:

Can you leave equipment in the twilight kingdom once you get access to it, and pick it up again later?

A random fluff idea I had - I think it would be cool if the Ghost Sovereign could 'reward' mortal companions by having them go to the twilight kingdom on death instead of their normal afterlife. This could confer some sort of mechanical benefit (immune to soul trapping for the recipient or some benefit related to the Ghost Sovereign being able to visit them whenever he goes to his kingdom), or it could be purely a fluff thing. Just an idea.

Another fun concept is a 20th level Ghost Sovereign spawning an offshoot kingdom that will someday be inherited by a distant descendant, but that's more of a campaign-specific thing.

[A.J.Gibson]

Love the Ghost Sovereign. Some stuff about it:

Can you leave equipment in the twilight kingdom once you get access to it, and pick it up again later?

A random fluff idea I had - I think it would be cool if the Ghost Sovereign could 'reward' mortal companions by having them go to the twilight kingdom on death instead of their normal afterlife. This could confer some sort of mechanical benefit (immune to soul trapping for the recipient or some benefit related to the Ghost Sovereign being able to visit them whenever he goes to his kingdom), or it could be purely a fluff thing. Just an idea.

Another fun concept is a 20th level Ghost Sovereign spawning an offshoot kingdom that will someday be inherited by a distant descendant, but that's more of a campaign-specific thing.

Thanks. Ghost Sovereign is my favourite, fluff-wise. Some of it's mechanics need work, I think.

To answer your questions:

Physical matter can not exist in the Twilight Kingdom, nor can anything living. The only exception to this rule is the Ghost Sovereign themself, who's level 20 ability allows them to become 'quasi-dead' and physically go there, bringing their equipment with them.

I've deliberately left the Kingdom sort of vague - it's supposed to be this that exists somewhere, but not somewhere PC's will normally visit. I've left the location vague because not everyone uses the standard cosmology. The GM is free to do with it whatever they feel appropriate, so letting other PC's go to the Twilight Kingdom when they die is perfectly acceptable.

[ImperatorV]

It is a very cool archetype. And I do now have some thoughts on mechanics.

Twilight Courtier is, IMHO, both too versatile and too limiting. Too versatile because designing them on the fly allows too much variation, especially in terms of feats, that can change with each summoning. Too limiting because they have only a small list of form talents to choose from, and adding more with the mechanic as it is now would make the versatility problem much worse.

Here's a suggestion: you're already using the Conjuration rules. Why not, instead of making your own mechanic, just give them the Conjuration sphere for free, with the extra companion talent a few times over the course of the class and some free form talents for each companion, and make it so that you have to spend a soul to summon them and they only come with half the normal health. This would end up mechanically very similar to as it is now, but with a select group of pre-genned companions that are made by the player, not you, with existing rules. This would also increase customization, as the Ghost Sovereign could spend his own magical talents on more Conjuration to enhance his court (magical companion to make a court wizard, ect.). The half health and soul spending would also cut down on the normal high power level of the Conjuration Sphere.

If you do this though, I would recommend having Twilight Courtiers not be able to take the Lingering Companion form. Hours/level or all-day companions completely negate the soul cost, which is a big part of balancing this.

Also note this would qualify the Ghost Sovereign for Conjuration advanced talents if they are in use, but I personally don't mind this. He's the king of an extraplanar kingdom, it makes sense he'd know some people from the outer planes.

[Aoleleb]

Twilight Courtier is, IMHO, both too versatile and too limiting. Too versatile because designing them on the fly allows too much variation, especially in terms of feats, that can change with each summoning. Too limiting because they have only a small list of form talents to choose from, and adding more with the mechanic as it is now would make the versatility problem much worse.


To be fair, the Forms they can select from are the very solid Ability boosting forms. I personally really enjoy classes with lots of versatility, but I'm against the fact that as written, Courtiers can take casting feats such as Advanced Magical Training and Extra Magical Talent. You can essentially pull out a caster that has whatever spell you need at any given time. I think they should be barred from casting feats.

[ImperatorV]

To be fair, the Forms they can select from are the very solid Ability boosting forms. I personally really enjoy classes with lots of versatility, but I'm against the fact that as written, Courtiers can take casting feats such as Advanced Magical Training and Extra Magical Talent. You can essentially pull out a caster that has whatever spell you need at any given time. I think they should be barred from casting feats.

Being able to pull out any sphere at a moment's notice is definitely too powerful. However, I'd prefer to limit them to a select few set-in-stone forms then to bar them from casting entirely. The ability to access any feat in the game is too powerful even if they were barred from casting feats. Imagine a combined Dreamscarred Press/Spheres of power campagin, for example. Any Martial training feat line at will? Even in core pathfinder I think being able to change feats out could set up some broken combos if a person knew what they were doing.

Basically, the ability to come up with new companions at will is the problem, not the access to casting feats. That's my opinion anyway.

[Aoleleb]

Imagine a combined Dreamscarred Press/Spheres of power campagin, for example. Any Martial training feat line at will?

Should balancing try to account for other third party? That seems like a really tall order.

[ImperatorV]

Should balancing try to account for other third party? That seems like a really tall order.

Balancing should account for everything possible while still being simple and intuitive. The "you can have any feat you want at will" is too open ended, there's a huge number of things that could break it across a lot of publications. It's like the tier one casters that Spheres of Power was meant to replace. The more I look at it, the more I think the Ghost Sovereign needs to be limited to a few specific builds for its courtiers, and the existing Conjuration Sphere has a framework for creating those builds. Is my original suggestion balanced? Maybe not, in fact I'd be willing to bet it needs a lot of adjustments but I feel the concept is sound and more balanced then the current system.

[Aoleleb]

Is my original suggestion balanced? Maybe not, in fact I'd be willing to bet it needs a lot of adjustments but I feel the concept is sound and more balanced then the current system.

I'll give you that.

[A.J.Gibson]

Sorry for delay. It's late but I want to at least partially respond.

The GS summon spirit ability has been a thorn in my side for a while. The original system had three preset spirits you could summon: guards with armor and long swords, assassins with short swords, short bows and sneak attack, and sages with skills and maybe some spellcasting. This was shotdown over 'wall of text issues'. Since this is a single feature of a single archetype, is has to be kept pretty simple - the book is too long as it is.

I think barring sphere casting is probably a good idea, and I intend to include that restriction. Actually, I might just say 'the courtier gains no feats'. The idea behind the spirits is that you spend some time designing a few before the game starts, or maybe the GM designs them for you, but I didn't explicitly say that anywhere.

If I just take feats away, would that be enough to fix things?

[ImperatorV]

That would curb any abuses, but it also really hits the power of the ability. Dunno if it'd measure up to the default poltergeists/shadows/wraiths with that change. I'd have to do some math.

[khadgar567]

love the war dancing tradition

[Aoleleb]

If I just take feats away, would that be enough to fix things?

That would be too far in the other direction I feel. It's a tricky ability and one that is gonna be hard to balance. If you remove too much flexibility, it won't hold up to the default option.

It should be noted that I'm a huge fan of it as it exists now and I'll be sad about any nerfs it gets.

Imperator makes a decent point about "Court Wizards" being a pretty prevalent fantasy trope. Removing that capability does seem a shame.

I think that either option (No spellcasting feats or set number of courtiers) would be sufficient to bring the ability in line. Yes "No Spellcasting" does leave the ability open to Path of War shenanigans but attempting to balance an ability around content that may or may not be available seems like a futile effort. My table personally doesn't allow Path of War, so balancing it with that in mind would leave it weaker for me.

Personally, my vote is for "Set Number" after more consideration. Maybe one at 4 and then another every four levels.

[kkplx]

How are the other SoP expansions coming along ? any place I could go to have a look at them?

[AmberVael]

How are the other SoP expansions coming along ? any place I could go to have a look at them?

Currently, expansions for the Alteration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487580-Spheres-of-Power-Shapeshifter-s-Handbook-Open-Playtest) and Time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476362-Spheres-of-Power-Time-Handbook-Open-Beta) spheres are also in playtest.

The Geomancer's Handbook (Nature), Telekinetic's Handbook (Telekinesis), Destroyer's Handbook (Destruction), Diviner's Handbook (Divination), Enhancer's Handbook (Enhancement), and Illuminator's Handbook (Light) have all been released.

I can say that there are at least a couple of other handbooks that are pretty far along, so there might be some other playtests soon, but I can't give any official word on which will be in playtest next, or when.

[kkplx]

Awesome! I only saw the telekinesis handbook over at drivethroughrpg

[kkplx]

Great, found all the ones you listed and purchased them =)

Now what we're missing is time, warp, alteration, mind, death, dark, weather, conjuration, illusion, life, protection... jesus SoP has a lot of spheres :D

[khadgar567]

Great, found all the ones you listed and purchased them =)

Now what we're missing is time, warp, alteration, mind, death, dark, weather, conjuration, illusion, life, protection... jesus SoP has a lot of spheres :D
and new ones gonnabe comming in end of expendions

[A.J.Gibson]

Okay, new twilight courtier version:

At 4th level, the ghost sovereign can expend a soul to summon a member of their court to the nearest unoccupied square. The courtier appears as a finely dressed and slightly translucent member of the sovereign’s race, and counts as a summoned creature. It remains for a number of rounds equal to the sovereign’s Charisma modifier.

The ghost sovereign has 3 possible types of courtier they can summon at any given time: soldiers, spies, and sages. Each of these courtier types is designed as if they were creatures summoned using the conjuration sphere, with the ghost sovereign possessing a caster level equal to their class level. Each courtier is a medium-sized biped creature with the two levels of the undead creature forms. Each courtier receives 3 hit points per hit die, is incorporeal, and can fly 30ft (perfect). Although undead, they still possess and use their constitution attribute, and are healed by whatever energy type the ghost sovereign channels. Twilight courtiers receive knowledge (nobility) as a bonus class skill.

The player may design their three types of courtier, and may change the design whenever they level. For every 4 class levels the ghost sovereign possesses, they may add an additional form to their courtier. They may choose any of the following forms: armored companion, battle creature (x2), fortified companion, magical companion, powerful companion, quick companion, roguish creature, shield bearer, skillful companion or willful companion. When choosing feats for their courtier, they may not choose feats with a limited number of daily uses, such as stunning fist.

Thoughts?

[ImperatorV]

Much more balanced, and looks very fun to play. I approve. There is a new concern though, namely warrior-type courtiers will need a source of ghost touch now.

[A.J.Gibson]

Much more balanced, and looks very fun to play. I approve. There is a new concern though, namely warrior-type courtiers will need a source of ghost touch now.

Added line to make them carry ghost-touch weapons.

Is 3 types enough? I had original thought of letting them have a number of types equal to how many souls they get in a day, and letting them use each one only once, but that seemed like a bookkeeping nightmare.

[Galacktic]

So what are the chances of a feat/advanced talent being made to apply multiple totem effects to a single totem? Maybe with the restriction of only effecting allies or enemies with it? I think an exponentially rising spell point cost could make it fair too, along with boosting the action cost to a full round.

2 spell points for two totem effects at once
5 spell points for three
etc.

[A.J.Gibson]

So what are the chances of a feat/advanced talent being made to apply multiple totem effects to a single totem? Maybe with the restriction of only effecting allies or enemies with it? I think an exponentially rising spell point cost could make it fair too, along with boosting the action cost to a full round.

2 spell points for two totem effects at once
5 spell points for three
etc.

Action economy has always been an issue for War, so it's something I've tried to improve with multiple options. There are currently several options:
-full war casters will probably want Call to Arms
Call to Arms
You may spend a spell point to create a totem or mandate as a move action.
You may take this talent up to three times. If you take it a second time, you can create a totem or mandate as a move action, or spend a spell point to create it as a swift action. If you take it a third time, you can create a totem or mandate as a swift action.

-clerics will probably want Totem With many Faces
Totem With Many Faces (Feat) (requires War Sphere)
As a single full-round action, you may create 2 totems. These totems must all be paid for separately, and their maintenance costs must be paid separately as well. You may choose the order in which the totems are created. An event that disrupts one totem ability being used does not automatically disrupt the other totem ability being used. You may not take other actions between casting the totems. Using each totem abilities draws attacks of opportunity separately.
If you possess Channel Energy class feature, you may substitute channeling energy for one of these totems.

-warrior types will probably want to take the Personal Conflict Drawback twice
-there is also a Warpriest archetype that can create totems as swift actions
-gishes may also prefer momentum to totems

[Galacktic]

Action economy has always been an issue for War, so it's something I've tried to improve with multiple options. There are currently several options:
-full war casters will probably want Call to Arms
Call to Arms
You may spend a spell point to create a totem or mandate as a move action.
You may take this talent up to three times. If you take it a second time, you can create a totem or mandate as a move action, or spend a spell point to create it as a swift action. If you take it a third time, you can create a totem or mandate as a swift action.

-clerics will probably want Totem With many Faces
Totem With Many Faces (Feat) (requires War Sphere)
As a single full-round action, you may create 2 totems. These totems must all be paid for separately, and their maintenance costs must be paid separately as well. You may choose the order in which the totems are created. An event that disrupts one totem ability being used does not automatically disrupt the other totem ability being used. You may not take other actions between casting the totems. Using each totem abilities draws attacks of opportunity separately.
If you possess Channel Energy class feature, you may substitute channeling energy for one of these totems.

-warrior types will probably want to take the Personal Conflict Drawback twice
-there is also a Warpriest archetype that can create totems as swift actions
-gishes may also prefer momentum to totems



Totem with Many Faces is exactly what I wanted, basically. I just didn't see it. Thanks for pointing it out! You've done a fantastic job with the Sphere so far.

[Aoleleb]

Thoughts?
Personally wish it was more than three, but it's definitely more balanced than the original ability. Maybe, if a Ghost Sovereign wanted more Courtiers, could Extra Companion give them an extra type?

[A.J.Gibson]

Personally wish it was more than three, but it's definitely more balanced than the original ability. Maybe, if a Ghost Sovereign wanted more Courtiers, could Extra Companion give them an extra type?

I think we're going to have to stick with 3. Most sovereigns will have one fighter type, and possibly a sneaky type, leaving one or two slots to be casters. Their power increases exponentially with more designs, so adding more, even with a cost, is probably going to break it.

[A.J.Gibson]

An update: the War book is still in playtesting. There has been a lot of polishing here and there, with major changes to the Bonded Blade and Warmonger archetypes, the Keening tradition, some Armorist arsenal tricks, and several talents and feats. I've responded to almost ever comment made (a few I would like to hear from more people from).

I'm curious to hear if there is anything people think should be removed from the book (it's a little long). I know some people don't like the Iron Mage, and the Keening tradition didn't come out the way I hoped, a few people seem concerned about the Battle Hymn boon, and the Bonded Blade has little to do with the subject matter of the book.

[khadgar567]

Can tribal mark used in both lets say speed increase an totem effect

[A.J.Gibson]

Can tribal mark used in both lets say speed increase an totem effect

I'm not certain what your question is. Tribal mark lets you turn a totem into an enhancement, so you could take totem of war and give it as an enhancement to one person. The advantage is that the enhancement will move with the person, and will last much longer (since enhancements start at 1 minute per level instead of 1 round).

[khadgar567]

I'm not certain what your question is. Tribal mark lets you turn a totem into an enhancement, so you could take totem of war and give it as an enhancement to one person. The advantage is that the enhancement will move with the person, and will last much longer (since enhancements start at 1 minute per level instead of 1 round).
let's say I want to use enchantment sphere to give party tank some speed and divisive totem effect can I use tribal mark to do both as same action by turning divisive totem to enchantment and while adding another enchantment to party tank

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm curious to hear if there is anything people think should be removed from the book (it's a little long). I know some people don't like the Iron Mage, and the Keening tradition didn't come out the way I hoped, a few people seem concerned about the Battle Hymn boon, and the Bonded Blade has little to do with the subject matter of the book.

The Iron Mage seems to be an equal trade to turn an incanter into a cleric. So unless the cleric is nerfed for being too strong, I don't see a big problem. You could simply reskin the cleric to achieve the same result (basically replace Death/Life sphere specialization with War sphere and consider domains as pre-chosen specializations). Not sure, what I would actually remove though. Sometimes you have enough material to fill two books.

[A.J.Gibson]

let's say I want to use enchantment sphere to give party tank some speed and divisive totem effect can I use tribal mark to do both as same action by turning divisive totem to enchantment and while adding another enchantment to party tank

You'd have to do it as two actions. Also, a divisive totem wouldn't work because it effects enemies within the totem, and when you make it an enchantment, only the person enchanted is considered inside the totem. You could turn a divisive totem into a totemic aura, however.

[khadgar567]

You'd have to do it as two actions. Also, a divisive totem wouldn't work because it effects enemies within the totem, and when you make it an enchantment, only the person enchanted is considered inside the totem. You could turn a divisive totem into a totemic aura, however.
thanks so we need spell crafting rules after all for sphere system for divisive totem its just random choice for example

[A.J.Gibson]

The Iron Mage seems to be an equal trade to turn an incanter into a cleric. So unless the cleric is nerfed for being too strong, I don't see a big problem. You could simply reskin the cleric to achieve the same result (basically replace Death/Life sphere specialization with War sphere and consider domains as pre-chosen specializations). Not sure, what I would actually remove though. Sometimes you have enough material to fill two books.

Yes, the Iron Mage is basically the cleric version of the Incanter. There was some concern over whether it was necessary to have the class when the Combat tradition Hedgewitch exists, and whether I should allow the Iron Mage to steal the fighter's best features. Someone also objected to the Mystic Grace.

[meemaas]

An update: the War book is still in playtesting. There has been a lot of polishing here and there, with major changes to the Bonded Blade and Warmonger archetypes, the Keening tradition, some Armorist arsenal tricks, and several talents and feats. I've responded to almost ever comment made (a few I would like to hear from more people from).

I'm curious to hear if there is anything people think should be removed from the book (it's a little long). I know some people don't like the Iron Mage, and the Keening tradition didn't come out the way I hoped, a few people seem concerned about the Battle Hymn boon, and the Bonded Blade has little to do with the subject matter of the book.

I personally love the Iron Mage, a create your own gish style caster.

A note on the Keening tradition, I believe the Endless Regrets Hedgewitch Secret should be updated to grant the Tradition Power (for five rounds, plus five for each iteration), seeing as how you have the Amateur Secret available now. You should pull out the wording from the original book with the various secrets to ensure consistency.

On the Battle Hymn boon, it does seem like it could arguably be pretty powerful. Maybe if you wrote a Drawback that it requires to grant it a somewhat hefty downside (like Fortified and Draining), because otherwise it seems like it could be incredibly easy to work with. I mean, most casters I make as a player have four drawbacks fairly easy (Somatic, Verbal, Magical Signs, and Focus Casting), swapping for a skilled casting in exchange for no longer needing a mental stat seems like an easy pick even as a pure Incanter.

[A.J.Gibson]

I personally love the Iron Mage, a create your own gish style caster.

A note on the Keening tradition, I believe the Endless Regrets Hedgewitch Secret should be updated to grant the Tradition Power (for five rounds, plus five for each iteration), seeing as how you have the Amateur Secret available now. You should pull out the wording from the original book with the various secrets to ensure consistency.

On the Battle Hymn boon, it does seem like it could arguably be pretty powerful. Maybe if you wrote a Drawback that it requires to grant it a somewhat hefty downside (like Fortified and Draining), because otherwise it seems like it could be incredibly easy to work with. I mean, most casters I make as a player have four drawbacks fairly easy (Somatic, Verbal, Magical Signs, and Focus Casting), swapping for a skilled casting in exchange for no longer needing a mental stat seems like an easy pick even as a pure Incanter.

I just revised the Keening tradition again to try and make it work better with totems and also to make that change to Endless Regrets.

Battle Hymn already requires skilled casting (perform), perhaps adding somatic casting?

[meemaas]

I just revised the Keening tradition again to try and make it work better with totems and also to make that change to Endless Regrets.

Battle Hymn already requires skilled casting (perform), perhaps adding somatic casting?

Love the change to the Keening tradition, although that brings up a suggestion in regards to that. Maybe a secret to allow Totems attached to a Lamentation to function at full caster level?

Edit: Just found that you had made that decision yourself, lol.

As for Battle Hymn, Somatic Casting is already pretty much guaranteed to be a pick for anyone using Battle Hymn, there's just no reason not to when you're casting off of Dex to begin with, therefore not wearing Heavy Armor, and likely not wearing Medium either.

It just doesn't seem like much of a drawback to require Somatic Casting for this. I'd suggest either Verbal Casting or Focus Casting, maybe even allowing a choice between the two based on the type of Perform chosen. Obviously that'll require GM adjudication more than anything else, and I'm unsure of the best way to word it. Also leaves a gray area with something like Perform (Dance), but I'm sure we can figure out some way to do it.

[A.J.Gibson]

As for Battle Hymn, Somatic Casting is already pretty much guaranteed to be a pick for anyone using Battle Hymn, there's just no reason not to when you're casting off of Dex to begin with, therefore not wearing Heavy Armor, and likely not wearing Medium either.

It just doesn't seem like much of a drawback to require Somatic Casting for this. I'd suggest either Verbal Casting or Focus Casting, maybe even allowing a choice between the two based on the type of Perform chosen. Obviously that'll require GM adjudication more than anything else, and I'm unsure of the best way to word it. Also leaves a gray area with something like Perform (Dance), but I'm sure we can figure out some way to do it.

I could have sworn I responded to this already.

Anyways, I'd love to hear suggestions on what a proper drawback to require could be. Somatic makes logical sense, but as you said, anyone planning to go all Dex will probably forsake armor anyways. I was thinking maybe Extended Casting (to represent the time it takes to perform the skilled casting skill).

The alternative is dumping the boon. And probably dump formulaic casting at the same time.

[meemaas]

I could have sworn I responded to this already.

Anyways, I'd love to hear suggestions on what a proper drawback to require could be. Somatic makes logical sense, but as you said, anyone planning to go all Dex will probably forsake armor anyways. I was thinking maybe Extended Casting (to represent the time it takes to perform the skilled casting skill).

The alternative is dumping the boon. And probably dump formulaic casting at the same time.

I think honestly, that Extended Casting might be the best choice, actually. It gives an honest downside to getting Battle Hymn that can't just be passed with a little optimization, and brings it in line with the Fortified Casting and it's Drawback.

However, that may make Battle Hymn seem unplayable, or relegate it to Gish type casters that just want to stack up some long duration Aegii and similar effects.

An alternative is to write a special Drawback just for Battle Hymn, but I know you're trying to dial back a bit on that, and that wouldn't be the best idea for that reason.

Formulaic Casting isn't a bad idea to be honest, it just doesn't seem like it's suitable for THIS book. Battle Hymn definitely is.

[A.J.Gibson]

I think honestly, that Extended Casting might be the best choice, actually. It gives an honest downside to getting Battle Hymn that can't just be passed with a little optimization, and brings it in line with the Fortified Casting and it's Drawback.

However, that may make Battle Hymn seem unplayable, or relegate it to Gish type casters that just want to stack up some long duration Aegii and similar effects.

An alternative is to write a special Drawback just for Battle Hymn, but I know you're trying to dial back a bit on that, and that wouldn't be the best idea for that reason.

Formulaic Casting isn't a bad idea to be honest, it just doesn't seem like it's suitable for THIS book. Battle Hymn definitely is.

A custom drawback isn't out of the question, but it would have to be something that appropriately balances having a high dexterity. Thing is, Dex is used for so many things...

I did have one thought: each time a sphere ability is used, the caster gains Vulnerability 1 (cumulative). So eventually you better be avoiding every point of damage or you're going to get one-shoted.

[meemaas]

A custom drawback isn't out of the question, but it would have to be something that appropriately balances having a high dexterity. Thing is, Dex is used for so many things...

I did have one thought: each time a sphere ability is used, the caster gains Vulnerability 1 (cumulative). So eventually you better be avoiding every point of damage or you're going to get one-shoted.

I like the idea, but it seems dangerous. Mind you, Vulnerability isn't a mechanic that functions like that, you'd have to create a new condition to make it work that way, since this is Vulnerability quoted below.


Vulnerabilities (Ex or Su)

A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed or if the save is a success or failure. Creatures with a vulnerability that is not an energy type instead take a –4 penalty on saves against spells and effects that cause or use the listed vulnerability (such as spells with the light descriptor). Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions.

That does seem like a dangerous penalty, and a real balancing factor that could work with it, but I think we should hear some opinions from other people before you settle on it.

[A.J.Gibson]

I discussed it with the other spheres writers, and the general consensus is that it's too hard to balance. Even the original author was nervous. So I've decided to cut it.

I'm also cutting Formulaic Casting. It's simply in the wrong book. Hopefully I'll have a chance to use it elsewhere, but I honestly don't think it's that great a loss.

I do like the 'escalating vulnerability' idea, however. Could be a cool alternative to the thaumaturge's backlash mechanic - instead of -1 to all d20 rolls, enemies get +1 to damage you.

[meemaas]

Sounds like something to keep in mind for a future archetype.

[A.J.Gibson]

So now I'm looking to see if any other archetypes need to be chopped. Most notably:
-the Bonded Blade barely has anything to do with the book at all, it originally had more to do with War, but it evolved in a different direction than I expected
-the Divine Heretic is looking somewhat redundant with the Warmonger and Iron Mage around, though it would be weird to have a War book without a Warpriest
-the Forward Observer strikes me as kinda meh, though the fact there is no sphere investigator and the only other investigator archetype is the Psyforensic makes it a little more appealing

[A.J.Gibson]

Alteration came out today, and it looks like War is going to be next. Feedback is still welcome; there was a lot of polishing just last week.

[Newbosauras]

So first off, awesome job, this took war from my least favorite sphere as a DM, to easily the core of one of the next one-shot I'm writing (squad based tactical infiltration w/ premade PCs). Momentum, mandates, and squadrons are fantastic abilities for 4-6 person groups in a way that the base sphere wasn't.

I don't have too many concerns or suggestions all things considered, and I'm afraid I'm not much of a proofreader. The only major thing I have considered is the idea of having a mandate that triggers an effect on completing a certain task, i.e.

Bloodthirst (Mandate)
(su) When creating this mandate designate a target enemy within medium range. If either member of this mandate deals lethal damage to this target, both members are healed for 1d8 hp per 2 caster levels. In addition their next attack gains a +20 bonus on it's attack rolls.

or

CAPTURE! (Mandate)
(su) When creating this mandate designate a target item or creature of special importance (a banner, or insignia or commander for example). Both members of this mandate gain +10 movement speed when moving towards the target, and +2 competence bonus on attack, CMD, or sleight of hand rolls to acquire the item or knockout the creature. If either member of this mandate captures this item (by picking up the item, or restraining or knocking out the creature), all allied creatures in medium range gain a +4 morale bonus on all attack, damage, or saving rolls as well as AC and CMD.

Sure these examples are probably a touch overpowered (combined true strike + healing) but I do like the idea of certain mandates triggering on completion of a particular task, rather than in response to a particular action.

In any case it's probably too late in the process to start adding things. I sincerely look forward to building a war sphere focused set of pregenerated characters. Honestly I think the idea of building a really properly cohesive squadron using this handbook is the most exciting thing I've had to look forward to in Pathfinder for a while. Speeeaking of which, any timeline on release for the Handbook?

[EldritchWeaver]

Sure these examples are probably a touch overpowered (combined true strike + healing) but I do like the idea of certain mandates triggering on completion of a particular task, rather than in response to a particular action.

They are overpowered. Bloodthirst is not only combining attacking with healing, it ensures that once you hit, you always hit afterwards unless rolling a 1. Also this not restricted to one single attack per round. And the healing is on par with a dedicated healer, who needs to invest a large part of his magic talents, where this requires just one talent. The Silver Crane discipline is the closest one to this effect and it requires recovering maneuvers in-between as well as balancing factor. CAPTURE! is less powerful compared to Bloodthirst but still it provides a buff to far too many things at once.

[Newbosauras]

Definitely a fair point, smaller more static bonuses would be more appropriate (i.e. heal 1d8+CL, gain a competence bonus equal to the mandate creator's casting modifier on your next attack roll). The +20 on attack rolls was an error, it should have read gains +20 on it's next attack roll (a la true strike). The tricky part is you need to increase the reward to balance out the fact that you need to fully complete a task to gain the bonus (frankly there would probably have to be a "the target must have equal to or greater than the caster's HD to prevent it from simply being targeted on the lowliest mook available"), rather than gaining it more or less instantaneously. CAPTURE! was actually just a misreading of one of the armor enchants from the handbook, and should have been choose one of those options for a +4 morale bonus.

Mostly though I was curious mostly about what people thought about certain mandates triggering on completing an objective, rather than a specific action?

[A.J.Gibson]

I don't have too many concerns or suggestions all things considered, and I'm afraid I'm not much of a proofreader. The only major thing I have considered is the idea of having a mandate that triggers an effect on completing a certain task, i.e.

Bloodthirst (Mandate)
(su) When creating this mandate designate a target enemy within medium range. If either member of this mandate deals lethal damage to this target, both members are healed for 1d8 hp per 2 caster levels. In addition their next attack gains a +20 bonus on it's attack rolls.

or

CAPTURE! (Mandate)
(su) When creating this mandate designate a target item or creature of special importance (a banner, or insignia or commander for example). Both members of this mandate gain +10 movement speed when moving towards the target, and +2 competence bonus on attack, CMD, or sleight of hand rolls to acquire the item or knockout the creature. If either member of this mandate captures this item (by picking up the item, or restraining or knocking out the creature), all allied creatures in medium range gain a +4 morale bonus on all attack, damage, or saving rolls as well as AC and CMD.

Sure these examples are probably a touch overpowered (combined true strike + healing) but I do like the idea of certain mandates triggering on completion of a particular task, rather than in response to a particular action.

In any case it's probably too late in the process to start adding things. I sincerely look forward to building a war sphere focused set of pregenerated characters. Honestly I think the idea of building a really properly cohesive squadron using this handbook is the most exciting thing I've had to look forward to in Pathfinder for a while. Speeeaking of which, any timeline on release for the Handbook?

The idea of a boost that get re-triggered by hitting some enemy is solid, and could be done a number of ways - I could see a symbiat feat chain working off this, with an ally gaining some sort of reward whenever they hit the target of their Battlefield Relay feature. It's not really a mandate any more though, it's something new. And yes, I'm trying to avoid adding more new stuff if I can.

War is next in line to be published. I'm mostly waiting on Adam; I don't know when this thing will go out, but I expect it this year.

[A.J.Gibson]

As War gets closer to final publication, a number of changes have occurred. For those who are interested, I'll summarize the major changes here:

The Iron Mage has been converted into a hedgewitch archetype. Even though it was basically a cleric, the amount of complaining about clerics in general became a real problem. The new version uses a mechanic similar to Gunslinger Grit, where the Iron Mage receives numerous War sphere tricks as they level, such as being able to move allies who are mandated together and rallying people without using their immediate action.

The Combat Engineer Alchemist archetype has been revised. They still use bombs to deliver totems, but the totems no longer attach to people. Before, they were expected to use their abilities to attach debuffing totems to enemies, but that hasn't worked out well, so now they use bombs to deliver totems, with bonus abilities they can choose from when they do so, such as being able to 'throw' their totem, or increasing the radius of the totem.

The War Hero fighter archetype has been revised. It's original ability of creating a totemic aura made more sense as a feat, so now anyone can take it. The War Hero itself now has a mechanic where they gain totemic auras automatically when they are successful in battle.

A few other talents have been changed. The Ghost Sovereign has had some of their higher level abilities fixed. The WardMage has also been clarified a bit. The Keening Hedgewitch tradition has been dropped due to it being too ****ing hard to balance. Imbued Weapon (the feat that gives you your casting stat to a weapon) has been dropped in favor of specific powers for specific classes that do the same. Mystic Assault continues to get written over and over again until I get it right.

[A.J.Gibson]

War Handbook should be wrapped up this week, so any final comments should be made in the next day or so.

[Warriorking9001]

it's an open beta but google drives wanted a request

[digiman619]

it's an open beta but google drives wanted a request

That's because it's already out. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/204473/The-Battlemages-Handbook?manufacturers_id=4790)