Paladin of Mephistopheles? Questions.

[TheFurith]

Thinking of running this thing in a game. LE Dhampir Anti-Paladin(Tyrant Variant which is LE) of Mephistopheles. (Thing just screams Mary Sue, no?) I came up with it for 3.5 but Pathfinder didn't have the things I was looking for. As close as I could get it. Anyway. The idea is To RP as a genuinely good guy, just off doing good deeds. Spreading the good will of Mephistopheles. But in much the same way a djinn grants wishes. A bringer of peace, try to resolve conflict before it begins, but if you don't want the peace he will paint the walls red. Then lick them clean became leaving a mess would be rude, right? As well as actively mocking all of the typical paladiny things to do. Like killing a dozen orcs who were just there and saying with conviction, "It was the right thing to do. Those things are evil."

Charisma score of 20 and a lot of points into social skills. Lord of Darkness variant for some fluff. Not terribly concerned with how it performs in combat. It's just an idea to have some fun with and see where I could take such a thing from a character perspective. Which is probably straight to the gallows....

I have three questions.

1. What would you do if you were either playing with, or the DM of a game with this? Assuming it was a game where this would fly.

2. If you were playing this, how would you do it?

3. Is there anything you think would add to the character, as I'm not terribly familiar with Pathfinder even the obvious would be useful.

[BWR]

Thinking of running this thing in a game. LE Dhampir Anti-Paladin of Mephistopheles. (Thing just screams Mary Sue, no?) I came up with it for 3.5 but Pathfinder didn't have the things I was looking for. .

PF has dhampir, PF has anti-paladins, PF has Mephistopheles; what exactly are you looking for that they do not have?


The idea is To RP as a genuinely good guy, just off doing good deeds. Spreading the good will of Mephistopheles. But in much the same way a djinn grants wishes. A bringer of peace, try to resolve conflict before it begins, but if you don't want the peace he will paint the walls red. Then lick them clean became leaving a mess would be rude, right? As well as actively mocking all of the typical paladiny things to do. Like killing a dozen orcs who were just there and saying with conviction, "It was the right thing to do. Those things are evil."


If you RP him as a genuinely good guy, he is a Good guy, by almost any standard. What you are suggesting here is, by most standards, not good.



I have three questions.

1. What would you do if you were either playing with, or the DM of a game with this? Assuming it was a game where this would fly.

2. If you were playing this, how would you do it?

3. Is there anything you think would add to the character, as I'm not terribly familiar with Pathfinder even the obvious would be useful.

1. Huh? that is such a vague question that I cannot answer it in any meaningful way without more information or making tons of assumptions that will most likely be wrong.

2. I wouldn't, not the way you are proposing. An anti-paladin is not a nice guy. They may go around and try to keep order, but they would not except in the most superficial and meaningless of ways be anywhere near good.

3. Mechanically or setting-wise?

[TheFurith]

PF has dhampir, PF has anti-paladins, PF has Mephistopheles; what exactly are you looking for that they do not have?

Deathtouched and Paladin of Tyranny. Which was what it would have been for 3.5, but couldn't be. Which was my explanation for why I would ever play any variant of some sort of vampire.


If you RP him as a genuinely good guy, he is a Good guy, by almost any standard. What you are suggesting here is, by most standards, not good.

Exactly. He acts as though doing good, but is doing anything but. Just because he's doing evil doesn't me he has to be running through the streets flailing a severed head. It's the whole Mephistopheles thing. Outwardly charming, except for the odd veiled, implied, entirely deniable threats. But really just looking out for some loopholed excuse to kill somebody, or everybody.


Huh? that is such a vague question that I cannot answer it in any meaningful way without more information or making tons of assumptions that will most likely be wrong.

What more information would you like?


I wouldn't, not the way you are proposing. An anti-paladin is not a nice guy. They may go around and try to keep order, but they would not except in the most superficial and meaningless of ways be anywhere near good.

I wouldn't play it the same way you seem to think I would either. Which might be my lack of information. Too short, not enough info. Too long, nobody will read it. Can't win.


Mechanically or setting-wise?

Both. The setting of the game as far as I know is up in the air right now. Mechanically combat is seeming a little too full round attack for my liking, so if you know of something that would help with that it'd be great.

[BWR]

Deathtouched and Paladin of Tyranny. Which was what it would have been for 3.5, but couldn't be. Which was my explanation for why I would ever play any variant of some sort of vampire..

Deathtouched, as in the FR template? Closest thing I can think of is the dhampir. the dhampir doesn't have the same abilities but doesn't have LA either. I'd ask your GM and see if s/he allows it.
The paladin of tyrrany is basically a worse version of the antipaladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin) so you're better off already. There might be some archetypes listed at the bottom that interest you.




What more information would you like?.

What sort of people you're playing with, what your GM is like, what the tone and goal of the game is to be, where it is set, etc. All sorts of stuff better answered by your GM and group than anyone else.
Because I personally would not likely accept such a character in my game nor would I want to play in a group with one. Mostly because I have little interest in playing in or running evil games.



Both. The setting of the game as far as I know is up in the air right now. Mechanically combat is seeming a little too full round attack for my liking, so if you know of something that would help with that it'd be great.

I'm not too familiar with Golarion so you're better off asking someone else about that. It sounds like someone from Cheliax (you might want to read up on Cheliax and the Hellknights before you become too wedded to your current concept).

Mechanically, what are you interested in accomplishing? What sort of vision do you have for your horrible person?
This (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9vv1a7v3y5BSGpObWxScUs1YlU/edit?pref=2&pli=1) guide might be of some use.

[Gildedragon]

I am not keen on this but since it has to do with his colleagues... -draws protective octogram-
Red Fel Red Fel Red Fel

[Telonius]

A Paladin of Mephistopheles, you say? I'd examine the patron if you want to know a bit about how to play the character.

Mephistopheles is basically the Starscream of Baator. This is the guy who's been allowed to actively oppose Asmodeus for millennia. The inventor of Hellfire, second in power only to Asmodeus. And power really is what he's all about: Flashy shows of it, desire for it, schemes to get it. Although he does get portrayed as Baator's Rebel, he's not chaotic. He recognizes the value of the hierarchy, he just wants to be the one on top of it.

A Paladin devoted to him would share some of the same characteristics. He'd approach any situation with thoughts like, "How can I get more power out of this? How I use this to aggrandize myself?" He's a glory-hound, and will react violently to anybody who besmirches his reputation. If there's a chance to be in charge of people, he will try to seize it.

Super-high charisma is a great start. I'd look for opportunities to be flashy. If he's doing something, he wants to do it big. Do things like Power Attack for as much as you can get away with. Never do 100 damage when you can do 500 damage (even if the target is just as dead either way). You want to impress the witnesses.

[Red Fel]

I am not keen on this but since it has to do with his colleagues... -draws protective octogram-
Red Fel Red Fel Red Fel

An octogram? I didn't think I'd put on that much weight.


Thinking of running this thing in a game. LE Dhampir Anti-Paladin of Mephistopheles. (Thing just screams Mary Sue, no?) I came up with it for 3.5 but Pathfinder didn't have the things I was looking for. As close as I could get it.

Okay. Let's pause for a moment, because you've said two different things.

First, an Antipaladin is not an Evil Paladin. An Evil Paladin is LE, also known as a Paladin of Tyranny. An Antipaladin is CE. Explicitly CE. I don't much like the class, because the whole premise is just "Let's take whatever the Paladin is, and mirror-image up an opposite thing."

I'm going to assume you wanted an LE servant of Mephistopheles, because there is no way he would take a CE minion. Blood War and all that.

Let's move on.


Anyway. The idea is To RP as a genuinely good guy, just off doing good deeds. Spreading the good will of Mephistopheles. But in much the same way a djinn grants wishes. A bringer of peace, try to resolve conflict before it begins, but if you don't want the peace he will paint the walls red. Then lick them clean became leaving a mess would be rude, right? As well as actively mocking all of the typical paladiny things to do. Like killing a dozen orcs who were just there and saying with conviction, "It was the right thing to do. Those things are evil."

Have you read my handbook? There's a bit in there that I call the "Dark Knight." The basic premise is a character who does the worst possible things for the best possible reasons. It sounds like what you're going for.


Charisma score of 20 and a lot of points into social skills. Lord of Darkness variant for some fluff. Not terribly concerned with how it performs in combat. It's just an idea to have some fun with and see where I could take such a thing from a character perspective. Which is probably straight to the gallows....

Probably, if you play him like a jerk. If you play him smartly, there's stuff you can do that keeps you from being execution-bait. But let's table that.


I have three questions.

1. What would you do if you were either playing with, or the DM of a game with this? Assuming it was a game where this would fly.

This character, as you've described? I wouldn't play the character. As DM, I'd give him exactly the consequences he earns - and as you describe him, that would be wanted posters, then mercenaries, then executions. Like the Spider-Man, this guy is a menace.


2. If you were playing this, how would you do it?

By expanding on the concept. It sounds like your character is a quiet, gentle soul, with a steel edge to him. He values peace and tranquility, and will quell violence with a sudden and terrible brutality and glee. So expand on that. He is a protector of the peace, a defender of the weak. He fights for those who refuse to fight.

Abandon the Mephistopheles angle. It makes no sense in this context. And expand on what makes him so savage. Why protect the weak?

If this were 3.5, I'd throw out a Hextorian angle. The weak exist to serve the strong, the strong to dominate over the weak, but there is no honor or strength to be found in fighting the weak or disrupting the peaceful order. Those who disrupt order are presenting themselves as strong, and challenging those who (like this PC) preserve that order - they are inviting a challenge. You are simply giving them what they want, proving your bestial dominance over them in the process.


3. Is there anything you think would add to the character, as I'm not terribly familiar with Pathfinder even the obvious would be useful.

I'll be honest, I don't know about much PF material for Evil Paladins beyond the Antipaladin alternate class. The Hell Knight Commander (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight) class is pretty vicious for what you're looking at, but before you can even get there you have to adapt your Paladin to LE - assuming you want to go with a Paladin at all. Honestly, you could do pretty well with a Fighter or Hybrid Class. For example, a Warpriest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest) can give you some divine (or profane) powers with a pretty buff martial chassis, if that's what you're after.

Honestly, it sounds like your concept is a bit incomplete so far. It has potential, but you need to figure out how you want to play this thing before we can give you mechanical advice.

[Gildedragon]

@Red Fel: better safe than sorry. Besides with nice symmetry in both axes octograms are much neater to draw than other starforms free hand.

@OP
It is worth remembering that "paladins" are less about serving an entity than an ideal. Though a LE Pally can worship the Mephster it is not as beholden to Mr Cold as a cleric or champion of him, and would further His interests only tangentially as they further Tyranny and Ruthless, Merciless Order. They'd be more liable to open a DMV than to assassinate a LG magistrate to allow their Meph-worshiping underling to take power... One could argue said assassination might cause the evil pal to fall.

A champion of Mephistopheles, however (crusader, battle cleric, etc) might engage in some mayhem to further Mepher
Possibly preaching about the virtues of the fiend (He's a real Cool dude) and perform some wonders in his name.
Wonders at a cost: service, favor, souls, proselytism, worship exclusivity... Maybe even start a monotheistic cult around him... And be particularly ruthless in hunting and exterminating other fiendish cults ("they kill babies you kknow " the Crusader would say)
PR is a big part of politics; and the Hells are particularly political
Heck wouldn't it tickle M pink if he got to ascend to a God before his boss? I think M would be very amused.

An aside for RedFel: don't tell me a devil wouldn't find a use for an anti paladin dumb enough to pledge allegiance to them, tools are tools... And if one can use a well meaning but reckless CG bard to further one's agenda; one can easily find use for an Evil meaning but reckless antipaladin... If only to enact false flag operations

[Red Fel]

An aside for RedFel: don't tell me a devil wouldn't find a use for an anti paladin dumb enough to pledge allegiance to them, tools are tools... And if one can use a well meaning but reckless CG bard to further one's agenda; one can easily find use for an Evil meaning but reckless antipaladin... If only to enact false flag operations

Imagine being served soup, but the spoon is old, rusted, and coated in something that you sincerely hope is only brown mold.

You can use it, but you will hate yourself for doing so. Particularly if you can simply ask the waiter for a nice, clean spoon, seeing as he's got a pile of them literally right over there don't tell me you don't I can see them seriously what even is this.

That's high-level LE employing CE. CG at least has a moral idealism to which LE can appeal; CG may loathe LE, but CG has its own agendas, and LE can play into those. It's very hard to play into CE's agendas, particularly when you're accustomed to simply killing CE to keep matters simple. I explore this concept in greater detail in my handbook, but the gist is that while it's not impossible, it's not an ideal or sustainable situation. Meph might employ a CE out of necessity, for a brief period, but he would likely orchestrate the annihilation of said CE shortly thereafter, simply to prevent CE as a whole from gaining valuable influence or strength. There is no long-term end-game in which working with CE has a high rate of success or positive outcome for LE.

Yes, one can find use for it. But that doesn't mean you want to know for certain whether that brown stuff is just mold.

[Gildedragon]

Imagine being served soup, but the spoon is old, rusted, and coated in something that you sincerely hope is only brown mold.

You can use it, but you will hate yourself for doing so. Particularly if you can simply ask the waiter for a nice, clean spoon, seeing as he's got a pile of them literally right over there don't tell me you don't I can see them seriously what even is this.

That's high-level LE employing CE. CG at least has a moral idealism to which LE can appeal; CG may loathe LE, but CG has its own agendas, and LE can play into those. It's very hard to play into CE's agendas, particularly when you're accustomed to simply killing CE to keep matters simple. I explore this concept in greater detail in my handbook, but the gist is that while it's not impossible, it's not an ideal or sustainable situation. Meph might employ a CE out of necessity, for a brief period, but he would likely orchestrate the annihilation of said CE shortly thereafter, simply to prevent CE as a whole from gaining valuable influence or strength. There is no long-term end-game in which working with CE has a high rate of success or positive outcome for LE.

Yes, one can find use for it. But that doesn't mean you want to know for certain whether that brown stuff is just mold.

Oh sure one doesn't want to know if one intends to EAT it
But knowing what it is is necessary for more creative uses.

For example the antipaladin works beautifully for the aforementioned killing of an LG magistrate; a CE follower is great for destabilizing LG or NG societies to push LE as a viable solution to chaos (or to move LE pawns into place). Why they work great to inspire a rhetoric of "Your compassionate, reformation-oriented, criminal code is not deterring crime, is not making the citizenship safe. What is needed is hard laws that are tough on crime and judges strong enough to uphold said laws"
And if the antipaladin goes around saying they work for a devil... Well most folk confuse all fiendish types and even they don't confuse them, they may assume the antipaladin misspoke (after all they'd then also know that anti paladins serve an ideal, not an individual)

One might want to then change the PR of one's LE branch though. Rebranding oneself to put distance between the CE patsies and catspaws and the more "reputable" LE branches.

Besides CEs can be sent to harass LE types (LE types like Asmodeus) and maintain plausible deniability.
A strange brown moldy soup is terrible as soup, but makes a great culture for bioweapons. A rusty spoon makes for a bad spoon, but a nice shiv if it is dirty and probably holds tetanus, or a nice expendable fine-detail digging tool (using the nice silver spoon is wasteful and you'll feel bad if it bends or chips or breaks while digging)

Just make sure you have a cure if there's a spill... Installing a kill switch on your antipaladin is probably handy.

[Xuldarinar]

Dhampir Antipaladin who worships Mephistopheles.

Use the Tyrant Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/tyrant-antipaladin-archetype) for LE.

Conversely, use the Insinuator archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/insinuator-antipaladin-archetype). Meph is all about contracts, you make a contract at the start of each day.

Don't like either of those? Be a Lawful Evil Champion of the Faith (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest/archetypes/paizo---warpriest-archetypes/champion-of-the-faith). Sure, it is a Warpriest archetype, but you get smite and can tune it to being against Chaos instead of being against Good if you prefer, and you still get another blessing to pick associated with your patron.



Boiling down to the RP side of things; Don't focus on what your character is, but who they are. Make an individual. Yes, they are part something else.. That is an aspect of them, not who they are. They are a Lawful Evil 'paladin', but that can be approached countless ways. Which law are they concerned with most? Their personal code? The code they follow as their paladin type? The dogma of their religion? The laws of hell? The laws of the their home nation? The laws of wherever they are at the time? Are they more lawful, or are they more evil?

[TheFurith]

I'm not too familiar with Golarion so you're better off asking someone else about that. It sounds like someone from Cheliax (you might want to read up on Cheliax and the Hellknights before you become too wedded to your current concept).

Mechanically, what are you interested in accomplishing? What sort of vision do you have for your horrible person?
This (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9vv1a7v3y5BSGpObWxScUs1YlU/edit?pref=2&pli=1) guide might be of some use.

I'd actually decided on a Dhampir variant from the area that would be Cheliax, but for whatever reason didn't bother reading about the place. Now that I have that's very helpful. As well as the guide. Thanks.

I'm thinking of using the paladin's abilities as a way of just getting some enemies out of the way temporarily while I fight the rest. So really anything that would help with that.


A Paladin devoted to him would share some of the same characteristics. He'd approach any situation with thoughts like, "How can I get more power out of this? How I use this to aggrandize myself?" He's a glory-hound, and will react violently to anybody who besmirches his reputation. If there's a chance to be in charge of people, he will try to seize it.

That's exactly what I'm going for.


First, an Antipaladin is not an Evil Paladin. An Evil Paladin is LE, also known as a Paladin of Tyranny. An Antipaladin is CE. Explicitly CE. I don't much like the class, because the whole premise is just "Let's take whatever the Paladin is, and mirror-image up an opposite thing."

I'm going to assume you wanted an LE servant of Mephistopheles, because there is no way he would take a CE minion. Blood War and all that.

Yes. But pathfinder lacking the Paladin of Tyranny that I wanted to play does have an Antipaladin and a Tyrant subtype, which is LE. So no conflict, and I get diplomacy for free.


Have you read my handbook?

I have not, but I'm getting the feeling I should.


By expanding on the concept. It sounds like your character is a quiet, gentle soul, with a steel edge to him. He values peace and tranquility, and will quell violence with a sudden and terrible brutality and glee. So expand on that. He is a protector of the peace, a defender of the weak. He fights for those who refuse to fight.

Abandon the Mephistopheles angle. It makes no sense in this context. And expand on what makes him so savage. Why protect the weak?

He doesn't protect them as much as he makes them indebted to him. Makes sure to remind them just who's servant it is that gave them what they wanted. Even if not exactly in the way they wanted it. So he can get what he wants later. Which is mostly to force them into servitude. Just not at the tip of the sword. If it can be avoided. It's a bit of a long con for power really. I figure with a character that will live centuries he'd think in larger time frames.

Not just how can I get control today, but how can I gain control before anyone even realizes it. Before they can resist. Find a way into the system and use it. Be outwardly direct and seem to have good intentions, but constantly plotting behind the scenes and tricking people into committing evil for him. Doing things to show that it's people's "best interests" to follow his Lord. That's the idea anyway.


A champion of Mephistopheles, however (crusader, battle cleric, etc) might engage in some mayhem to further Mepher
Possibly preaching about the virtues of the fiend (He's a real Cool dude) and perform some wonders in his name.
Wonders at a cost: service, favor, souls, proselytism, worship exclusivity... Maybe even start a monotheistic cult around him... And be particularly ruthless in hunting and exterminating other fiendish cults ("they kill babies you kknow " the Crusader would say)
PR is a big part of politics; and the Hells are particularly political
Heck wouldn't it tickle M pink if he got to ascend to a God before his boss? I think M would be very amused.

That's pretty much exactly where I'm going with this idea.

[GreyBlack]

So. Without reading everyone else's stuff, the only problem I see is that Mephistopheles is LE, while the Antipaladin is CE. There is a variant Antipaladin in Ultimate Intrigue that allows you to be LE, so I recommend taking that.