Trap Classes

[Ethernil]

Which classes and prestige classes, as either dips or taking all levels, are traps, mechanicaly weak, failing to justify bringing to a group? For example i keep seeing swashbuckler suggested as a 3 level dip to many melee builds, but it pidgeonholes you into light armor and if you are melee your inteligence is probably not gona be something to write home about, 14 at best. You 're better off grabing 2 levels of fighter for 3 bonus feats, the 2 regular you get for fighter 1 and 2 and the secret one, tower shield proficiency which can be swapped for exotic shield proficiency with gnomish battlecloak for example if you re a finesse type of character.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Swashbuckler is actually pretty good for a rogue, thanks to Daring Outlaw.
Rogues want high int anyway, and if you take Able Learner or don't care much about skills you essentially trade 4 skill points/level for d10 HD, free Weapon Finesse and full BAB.
That's not too bad if you're more interested in melee damage. As for the armor, dex-based melee wear light armor anyway.

As for things that are traps, basically any caster PrC with half or less progression is a trap, no matter what class features.
Some of those that progress on uneven levels are useful as dips (like Mindbender or Spellsword), but i've never seen anyone take one for all levels.

Most nature-themed prestige classes are traps for druids, but that's mostly because druids get so many good, level-dependant class features.
Moonspeaker or Lion of Talisid are essentially sidegrades depending on your focus, but nobody takes Nature's Warrior and Master of Many Forms is also clearly inferior (and mostly used on WS rangers).

True Necromancer has to be one of the worst caster traps ever designed. It loses so much casting that you might as well not bother casting at all.
The same applies to the Yathrinshee which would actually be really cool if it didn't cripple you just by entering.
Other theurges have the same problem to a lesser degree unless you use early entry. At most levels they don't even get significantly more spells than a single-classed caster, in addition their slowed progression.

Arcane Archer is also a big offender. The lack of casting progression makes the main feature (Imbue Arrow) worthless, and even as a dip it's often not worth losing 2 levels of casting progression.
The other granted abilities either have little impact or are too limited in daily uses to make much difference.

Most psionic PrCs are losers too. They almost all lose at least one level of manifesting, and few make it worth it.

Post-errata Weretouched Master is a massive trap. They basically took everything that made the class good and fun and nerfed it to hell.

[noce]

Your definition could apply to most base classes.

For example, taking more than 4/5 cleric levels does nothing for you, so you should take a prestige class as soon as possible. Sorcerer and wizard are the same.
(Exceptions do exsist, for example if you want an alternative class feature)
I purposely mentioned casters since, despite them being strong classes, going pure is most often a trap.

Prcs that could be considered traps are most gish prestige classes that do not advance spellcasting.
Green Star Adept is a case in point. Nice flavor and huge bonuses can lure unexperienced players to a low bab, half casting, no constitution score prestige class.



True Necromancer has to be one of the worst caster traps ever designed.

Yeah, almost forgot about the perfect example of trap prc.

[Willie the Duck]

Swashbuckler isn't a trap so much as a really specialized build addition that you should not consider for normal melee builds. It does highlight one problem: If you are trying to build a melee character, and not using a ToB class or one of the traditional melee class-to-PrC routes like Barbarian->Bear Warrior, there's a certain temptation to just grab each one up through whatever people think of as their cutoff point (so, paladin 2 or 4, hexblade 2, swashbuckler 3, fighter 2, barbarian 1, ranger 2, yes some of those are incompatible with each other). But when you get to the end of it you can easily end up with a character that can't do anything.

One interesting 'possible trap' classes is the PrC Ur Priest. Not that it isn't good, it is (nearly full cleric abilities in 10 levels, and 9th level spells by 14th level). However, if you take two characters, side-by-side, and progress one as a typical Cleric5/PrC10/something5, and a X5/Ur Priest10/Y5, how many of those levels are you actually able to do more or better as the UP? It still has the potential to be good, but I've seen all too many people end up lost in the weeds chasing the benefits of the class.

[Ethernil]

As a base class i dare say the factotum could prove a trap. It generalizes so much that it ends up weaker than many others. A simple rogue wizard multiclass without any prc can probably outhine him. The class is very poorly written, what does all skills are class skills mean? Does it include skills from third party editor books? Would it be too hard to use a line similar to what they use for other classes(as rogue with the addition of x,y,z and pi)? Why do i have to search for an online article to bring inspiration points to a usable level? Couldn't they just add to the class description: you gain an extra inspiration point per inteligence bonus point? And what is the reason behind being unable to use a single spell more than once a day?

As for prestige classes, master of masks has a crazy cool flavor but it is bound to weaken any build it is added to. Mask bonuses don't cover for the abomination that is 1/2 bab with 4/10 spellcasting. If it had 3/4 bab or 8/10 casting or both even i believe it would be just fine. Maybe with increased requirements as a balancing factor.

Oh and war hulk, unless you plan on turning your character into an npc with minimal roleplay value apart from hulk smash, and if it is damage you want you are probably better of as a barbarian using that extra bab for your power attack.

[Gildedragon]

As a base class i dare say the factotum could prove a trap. It generalizes so much that it ends up weaker than many others. A simple rogue wizard multiclass without any prc can probably outhine him. The class is very poorly written, what does all skills are class skills mean? Does it include skills from third party editor books? Would it be too hard to use a line similar to what they use for other classes(as rogue with the addition of x,y,z and pi)? Why do i have to search for an online article to bring inspiration points to a usable level? Couldn't they just add to the class description: you gain an extra inspiration point per inteligence bonus point? And what is the reason behind being unable to use a single spell more than once a day?

Ooooh thems fighting words
A wizard alone would outshine a factotum by virtue of being a wizard. Rogue alone: doubtful, and even rogue-wizard would have a hard time beating the factotum at what the factotum does best: Skill encounters
(and stuff like knowledge devotion and iaijutsu focus turn combat into a skill encounter)
(as to what "all skills" means: all skills extant in the campaign world/allowed books...)

A factotum's spells aren't meant to be blasting spells or short duration buffs but rather are intended as one-shot problem solvers; critical situation boosters and "get the party out of a sticky spot" cards.


Also while I was super fond of FoI early on, it really doesn't need as much feat investment as I had estimated... There are several int to damage routes that can be explored (if PF is on the table)
Overall factotum makes a great skill monkey or bonus member to a party, not wholly unlike a bard.

Trap: the soulknife; knight; and favored soul

[digiman619]

Trap: the soulknife; knight; and favored soul

Ooh, I pity anyone who picks a 3.5 Soulknife over a PF one...

[mabriss lethe]

Very few classes are out-and-out traps. It's more dependent on what you're trying to accomplish and what sources are allowed in your game.

... Even the 3.5 soulknife can be turned into the basis of some pretty solid builds. It leads nicely into pyrokineticist (and it's mind's eye alt classes) and its ACFs can be used to pretty startling effect. (The bonus feat ACF opens up access to ToB maneuvers via martial study/stance, and the Hidden Talent acf can be used in conjunction with the appropriate races as the beginning phases of bootstrapping true manifesting onto the chassis.) It's also a decent entry point for Umbral Disciple, and you can actually make pretty good use of Bladewind on a UD build.

[Troacctid]

I would say that the biggest trap class is probably Combat Trapsmith, because it is the only trap class that is an actual trap class.

[The Viscount]

The factotum is not a trap, just like any class that offers choices, you could make the wrong ones and end up with a sub-par build. The same is true for wizard. All skills as class skills mean that every printed skill you find in 3.5 and 3.0 (unless updated) is a class skill for factotum. Third party isn't included in their intent because any third party book isn't strict RAW allowed. Just like with savant, they didn't print out all the skills in a list because it would take up a lot of space. I can't guess as to why they didn't let you use the same spell more than once, but there's a simple answer for why you need to take font of inspiration a few times to have enough: the writers didn't playtest.

On the subject of classes that are traps, I'll mention Yathrinshee, True Necromancer's Drow cousin that's bad in all the same ways.

Also a trap, and famously so: Spellthief after level 1. Master spellthief means advancement of stealing spells, which is all that most care about.
Mountebank, for really any number of levels. It's a bad, bad base class.

[Ethernil]

Ooooh thems fighting words
A wizard alone would outshine a factotum by virtue of being a wizard. Rogue alone: doubtful, and even rogue-wizard would have a hard time beating the factotum at what the factotum does best: Skill encounters
(and stuff like knowledge devotion and iaijutsu focus turn combat into a skill encounter)
(as to what "all skills" means: all skills extant in the campaign world/allowed books...)

A factotum's spells aren't meant to be blasting spells or short duration buffs but rather are intended as one-shot problem solvers; critical situation boosters and "get the party out of a sticky spot" cards.


Also while I was super fond of FoI early on, it really doesn't need as much feat investment as I had estimated... There are several int to damage routes that can be explored (if PF is on the table)
Overall factotum makes a great skill monkey or bonus member to a party, not wholly unlike a bard.

Trap: the soulknife; knight; and favored soul

In the campaign's i have played unaproachable east isn't allowed. So no iaijutsu focus even without the quickrazor cheese. "Edit": i meant oriental adventures.

About font of inspiration i meant that it should be a class ability, not a feat, since i believe the base inspiration points you get are not enough. At level 8 for example you can use cunning surge to cast 2 spells in one turn, that is 5 inspiration points out of the 5 you have in total or if you decided to use your inspiration points to boost your attack roll it won't last you past 2 or 3 rounds when full attacking and that is just pitiful.

And since i have played the class, it is natural that i know better than to use those few spell slots on anything but utility spells, preferably with long duration. The problem is that, if for example you decided you need to cast knock or bear's endurance or fly or whatever twice in a day, you can't, and that is a totally unneeded handicap. It wouldn't break anything to let you prepare a spell extra times. And no, use magic device is no replacement for spellcasting otherwise the rogue would be tier 3 if not 2.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yathrinshee as three-level dip is not bad - stacking caster levels is valuable, especially for animate dead and command undead. It's worse than just taking Theurgic Specialist, of course, and you need to have some theurgic tricks, such as Ur-Priest or Circle Magic, but if Dragon Magazine is banned, it's a sensible theurge dip.

(if your DM allows you to stack Theurgic Specialist and Yathrinshee, it's even better, but you may need to get your DM checked out)

[Gildedragon]

Iaijutsu Focus is in OA not UE AFAIK
Yes the inspiration points per level are a bit low, but not terribly so.

Also if you're casting 2 spells in a turn, those two spells best be worth it for ending the encounter fast. Odds are you had the first go in the round (Dex + Int to init). You best have set up your foe to fall OR got your party out of a bad spot. If you spent all your IP in... something that won't have cut combat down considerably, you made the wrong choice.
Same as if a wizard putzed their spells in nothing of much use.

Also part of the handiness of the spells + UMD is using them to create your own magical gear and be able to reliably use it.
Storing unused spells in weapons for later use is also a very viable option.

But that's going off course. Trap classes are... Well classes that can't do what they set out to do, or hamper one's character goals.
VoP Monk is a great trap example. It looks great and synergistic but Nope!

Master of the Unseen hand on a Wizard

Dragon Disciple is a massive trap

Also Trapsmith is yup trappiest class... or Kobold+Trap domain Cleric
Ranger too...

[Ethernil]

Also Trapsmith is yup trappiest class... or Kobold+Trap domain Cleric
Ranger too...

Male Kobold ranger, into Trapsmith, with a trap domain cleric dip wearing female clothes. Oh and named Admiral Ackbar.

[Troacctid]

Trapsmith is ironically not a trap. The class is quite good.

[The Viscount]

Very few classes are out-and-out traps. It's more dependent on what you're trying to accomplish and what sources are allowed in your game.

... Even the 3.5 soulknife can be turned into the basis of some pretty solid builds. It leads nicely into pyrokineticist (and it's mind's eye alt classes) and its ACFs can be used to pretty startling effect. (The bonus feat ACF opens up access to ToB maneuvers via martial study/stance, and the Hidden Talent acf can be used in conjunction with the appropriate races as the beginning phases of bootstrapping true manifesting onto the chassis.) It's also a decent entry point for Umbral Disciple, and you can actually make pretty good use of Bladewind on a UD build.

Could you explain what you mean? The ACF that grants feats for Soulknife mentions "any feat designed for soulknives" and "any feat your mind blade can benefit from." Are you using a broad reading of the second to include the martial study/stance feats?

As for Umbral Disciple, I like the class, but I think i'm missing the mesh here. Is it anything beyond an extension of range? How are you getting the essentia to support UD?

Is everyone leaving out combat trapsmith? But it's so trappy itself.

[Ethernil]

Umbral disciple 3 is probably the best and cheapest way to get hips on a rogue build. Probably starting as rogue 3 incarnate 2, and soulmelds can really boost your skills. Also free miss chance and 6 skill points per level isnt a bad deal. Going the full 10 levels only really boosts your esentia pool, the other features are lucklaster.

Oh and we mention the trapsmith as a joke, you know, TRAP smith. As a class it is not too bad.

[Renen]

Spell thief is most definitely not a trap past 1.
At worst it's a trap past 9.
Not only do you get useful abilities from it after level 1, like stealing active spells, but the number of spell levels you can hold is limited by spell thief level. As in actual class level. So as level 1 spell thief you can only hold one level of a spell. So you can't steal level 2 spells no matter how you try

[Troacctid]

Spell thief is most definitely not a trap past 1.
At worst it's a trap past 9.
Not only do you get useful abilities from it after level 1, like stealing active spells, but the number of spell levels you can hold is limited by spell thief level. As in actual class level. So as level 1 spell thief you can only hold one level of a spell. So you can't steal level 2 spells no matter how you try
IIRC, technically, a 7th level spellthief with the spelleater variant could steal 8th and 9th level spells to eat, since that doesn't require you to store them. But yeah, you won't be stealing anything above 1st level as a spellthief 1.


Is everyone leaving out combat trapsmith? But it's so trappy itself.
Ahem.

I would say that the biggest trap class is probably Combat Trapsmith, because it is the only trap class that is an actual trap class.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Look, there are a lot of bad PrCs. Acolyte of the Skin comes to mind since it requires casting but only gives 5/10 advancement. All of those PrCs are bad. But they're only regular-bad. They don't make you worse just for the taking of them.

Then there's Acolyte of Peace, which is broken as written and also completely unplayable in 99% of campaigns since it requires the player to regulate every other player's actions. Not ok. It's a trap because it ends the hell out of campaigns, not for mechanical reasons.

The Blighter does actually just make you worse across the board, no matter how you enter it. But it is despite the flaws a fast-advancing caster that gets 9th level spells faster than its progenitor.

Fochlucan Lyricist is almost the definition of a trap class because it can be safely disarmed by acquiring evasion in a way that doesn't require LA or levels. Do that, and it's good!

And that is why the worst PrC is Reaping Mauler. No spells. One singular combat trick, which is bad and easily countered. Does nothing other than combat. Adds MAD. Class features are actively anti-synergistic. There's no way that I'm aware of to make this class even competitive with any other grapple-focus build.


Umbral disciple 3 is probably the best and cheapest way to get hips on a rogue build. Probably starting as rogue 3 incarnate 2, and soulmelds can really boost your skills. Also free miss chance and 6 skill points per level isnt a bad deal. Going the full 10 levels only really boosts your esentia pool, the other features are lucklaster.

Dark template. +8 H/+6MS, HiPS, cold resistance, +10 all move modes for +1 LA. And it's both acquired and inherited, so a PC could pick it up during play.

[Faily]

For base classes I've often found the Monk (at least in 3.5) to be a Trap. It's the kind that new and inexperienced players look at when browsing through the PHB and go "Whoah! Look at all the abilities the Monk get! It must be good!", and then just lead to disappointment. :smalltongue:

[Renen]

A pair of glasses, with nose pads made from valuable gems, and with trap the soul spell cast on said gems. As soon as you put them on (and the nose pads touch your nose), your soul is sacked out!

Trap Glasses!

[noce]

It's the kind that new and inexperienced players look at when browsing through the PHB and go "Whoah! Look at all the abilities the Monk get! It must be good!", and then just lead to disappointment. :smalltongue:

No. Monk is the kind of class that new and inexperienced players look at and go "Whoah! I'll do a monk in each and every campaign I will play!", and then they do so with great disappointment of their fellow players.

Seriously, I've met more than a couple monk fans that build it crappily and then charge against a demon horde and die horribly and then make another monk character worse than the previous. :smallmad:


...sorry, you touched a sore spot :smallconfused:

[OldTrees1]

Dark template. +8 H/+6MS, HiPS, cold resistance, +10 all move modes for +1 LA. And it's both acquired and inherited, so a PC could pick it up during play.

RE: Umbral Disciple

It is not so cut and dry. Dark Template gives you a new weakness (Save or Lose) and loses a HD while and Umbral Disciple gives good HD (decent skill points with a good list) for a Roguish character. Sure I think the Dark Template is usually better, but sometimes 3HD is a better price than +1LA.

[Ethernil]

The fighter is a trap for new players as well. Everyone at the beginning believes that you cant mess him up but it is quite the opposite. The fighter is a good 1 or 2 level dip for feats and proficiencies or 6 if you plan to use the dungeoncrsher acf. If you want to take more levels, even 20, you need access to at least 5 different splat books not everyone has access to, so that you remain relevant. Yes acfs and feats can make fighter do his job, not like casters do it but still ok.

The same goes for sorcerer, you pick up all the cool looking spells as you level up and you end up with 20 different ways of doing the same thing, more or less, regretting you didnt pick what really mattered.
Wizard, druid and cleric only need that you keep your highest ability score to your casting stat and you can change your spells to fill your needs any day.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

RE: Umbral Disciple

It is not so cut and dry. Dark Template gives you a new weakness (Save or Lose) and loses a HD while and Umbral Disciple gives good HD (decent skill points with a good list) for a Roguish character. Sure I think the Dark Template is usually better, but sometimes 3HD is a better price than +1LA.

The weakness is real, but 1 LA isn't a big deal with buyoff (and even if you can't, the comp should be the LA + 2 levels of whatever class suits your build best). Plus it's available from level 2, so you can have your HiPS+Darkstalker thing running much earlier.

[ekarney]

Combat Trapsmith

I'd have to say Sohei, from OA, concept wise it's incredible, however it fails to perform.

[OldTrees1]

The weakness is real, but 1 LA isn't a big deal with buyoff (and even if you can't, the comp should be the LA + 2 levels of whatever class suits your build best). Plus it's available from level 2, so you can have your HiPS+Darkstalker thing running much earlier.

You mention buyoff as if they would not already have LA they were buying off. The 1st +1 LA isn't a big deal with buyoff. The 3rd +1 LA can be. Don't forget those 3 levels still progress skill ranks towards prereqs. Sure they are not as good as more base class levels but it is not a complete loss. But you are completely right about low level.

As I said, Dark is usually better but it is not cut and dry. I have had builds where I swapped out Dark for Umbral Disciple, but Dark was & is still my default despite it usually being the 2nd +1LA and having the Save or Lose.

[Seppo87]

factotum is not a trap class, and neither is swashbuckler. They are solid dips, and have place in many builds in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.

[OldTrees1]

factotum is not a trap class, and neither is swashbuckler. They are solid dips, and have place in many builds in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.

I agree about Factotum (although I would have preferred a Chameleon Base Class)

Swashbuckler can drop someone into the +numbers trap. The 3 level dip might be worthwhile if you are getting qualitative improvements elsewhere but if your combat is dull qualitatively then spending 3 levels on more +numbers is a common trap.

[Seppo87]

I agree about Factotum (although I would have preferred a Chameleon Base Class)
(OT)
Have you tried the Medium from Pathfinder occult classes? It's got a very similar feel

[OldTrees1]

(OT)
Have you tried the Medium from Pathfinder occult classes? It's got a very similar feel

(OT)
*goes and reads* It is similar but is mechanically unable to hold up to the Chameleon fluff. It would be a decent place to start modifying from.

[The Viscount]

Umbral disciple 3 is probably the best and cheapest way to get hips on a rogue build. Probably starting as rogue 3 incarnate 2, and soulmelds can really boost your skills. Also free miss chance and 6 skill points per level isnt a bad deal. Going the full 10 levels only really boosts your esentia pool, the other features are lucklaster.

The important thing when getting HiPS is that not all HiPS abilities are equal. Umbral Disciple gives ranger HiPS, which only means you can hide while observed; you still need cover and concealment to hide behind. Embrace of shadows doesn't actually count, since it's only a miss chance, not concealment.
I would say best is from shadowdancer or assassin, but they both take time. Dark Creature's isn't super clear on whether you still need cover/concealment, if it doesn't by your DM, that gives it a large advantage over UD.


Spell thief is most definitely not a trap past 1.
At worst it's a trap past 9.
Not only do you get useful abilities from it after level 1, like stealing active spells, but the number of spell levels you can hold is limited by spell thief level. As in actual class level. So as level 1 spell thief you can only hold one level of a spell. So you can't steal level 2 spells no matter how you try

I said that spellthief was a trap because of the existence of the Master spellthief feat, which allows you to stack with another class for the purpose of stealing spells. Sure there are other things it has, but stealing spells, the main feature, can be taken care of with multiclassing and Master Spellthief. THat's why I said 1 level.

[Renen]

Spell thief's spell stealing ability is specifically keyed to spell thief level. You can NOT raise with the feat (or rather you can't raise part of it).
At most you can hold enough spell levels equal to your spellthief level. Feat or no feat. If you are level 1, you can't hold more than one spell level, meaning you can't even steal spells above level 1.

[The Viscount]

I'm sorry, I didn't read your post carefully enough.
I hadn't noticed that quirk of the class. Doesn't that essentially render the feat functionless, then?

Wait, what's the save or lose weakness of the Dark Template?

[OldTrees1]

The important thing when getting HiPS is that not all HiPS abilities are equal. Umbral Disciple gives ranger HiPS, which only means you can hide while observed; you still need cover and concealment to hide behind. Embrace of shadows doesn't actually count, since it's only a miss chance, not concealment.
I would say best is from shadowdancer or assassin, but they both take time. Dark Creature's isn't super clear on whether you still need cover/concealment, if it doesn't by your DM, that gives it a large advantage over UD.


Embrace of Shadow (Su): Starting at 3rd level, you can weave incarnum into an obscuring shadow that clings to you, providing you with a limited amount of concealment.

I think it gives concealment.


Wait, what's the save or lose weakness of the Dark Template?

Your native plane is changed by the template. Do you know of any save or lose effects for extraplanar enemies?

[Troacctid]

I'm sorry, I didn't read your post carefully enough.
I hadn't noticed that quirk of the class. Doesn't that essentially render the feat functionless, then?
Well, no. First off, it also stacks your caster levels. So that's helpful. Second, it can still allow you to steal higher level spells. A 4th level spellthief can store up to four spell levels, but can only steal spells of up to 2nd level. Master Spellthief could allow that spellthief to steal 3rd and 4th level spells.

[torrasque666]

Well, no. First off, it also stacks your caster levels. So that's helpful. Second, it can still allow you to steal higher level spells. A 4th level spellthief can store up to four spell levels, but can only steal spells of up to 2nd level. Master Spellthief could allow that spellthief to steal 3rd and 4th level spells.
It would allow them to steal spells of that level yes. But Master Spellthief does not say anything about raising the number of spell levels that they can hold. So while a Spellthief 4/Other thing 2 might be able to steal a 5th level spell, they would not be able to then possess it for recasting. However, each spell you steal is a spell your opponent cant cast. So it loses part of its supposed functionality but retains an important part (denying your opponent their spells)

[nedz]

And that is why the worst PrC is Reaping Mauler. No spells. One singular combat trick, which is bad and easily countered. Does nothing other than combat. Adds MAD. Class features are actively anti-synergistic. There's no way that I'm aware of to make this class even competitive with any other grapple-focus build.

I see your Reaping Mauler, which is bad, and I'll raise you Shining Blade of Heironeous - which is worse. Half casting and you get a magic weapon - it's very hard to come up with a build option which is not strictly worse than taking levels in this PrC.

[OldTrees1]

I see your Reaping Mauler, which is bad, and I'll raise you Shining Blade of Heironeous - which is worse. Half casting and you get a magic weapon - it's very hard to come up with a build option which is not strictly worse than taking levels in this PrC.

Anti Synergy vs No Synergy? I think Anti Synergy is worse.

[nedz]

Anti Synergy vs No Synergy? I think Anti Synergy is worse.

Hmm, well they are both classes which make you worse at what you do than any other available option - so it's a race to the bottom.

Another candidate here is Order of the Bow Initiate. This has a hefty feat tax of Archery feats - the best of which is anti-synergistic with the classes Shtick.

[Seppo87]

Hmm, well they are both classes which make you worse at what you do than any other available option - so it's a race to the bottom
Note that Reaping Mauler depends on a feat that requires being medium sized or smaller. You lose the benefits if you grow in size.

[Troacctid]

I see your Reaping Mauler, which is bad, and I'll raise you Shining Blade of Heironeous - which is worse. Half casting and you get a magic weapon - it's very hard to come up with a build option which is not strictly worse than taking levels in this PrC.
Shining Blade is not as much of a trap class, though, because it looks bad and then, shocker, actually is bad. The worst traps look like they might be good, but are actually bad.

A better example would be Metamind. It sells itself as a way to turn you into an endless font of power points, but then you take the class and it turns out it actually gives you fewer power points than a straight psion or wilder, despite the fact that "Here, have more power points" is literally the class's only ability.

[Soranar]

Rule of thumb

losing more than 2 caster levels is usually a trap for casters
if you do lose 2 caster levels it better give you something really good(say a malconvoker)
losing 1 caster level can be ok

LA templates and races without LA buy off are almost always a trap too, no matter what kind of character you make. A regular race at higher level will nearly always outshine you.

Martial PrC that require a lot of weak feats and skills are usually a trap (see blackguard for an example)

nearly every PrC for a druid is a trap

A well built Factotum is definitely not a trap

A Swashbuckler's abilities tend to be useless against a LOT of enemies (crit immune creatures are legion) so I would second that it's a trap. If you want a sneak attack character with full BAB, play a stealthy fighter thug instead (which saves you from wasting so many feats on class stacking).

DEX based fighting in general is a trap (STR based fighters will deal more damage, more reliably with less feats)

for similar reasons, crossbow archery is a trap (more feats to do less than regular archery)

precision damage characters tends to be a trap (exception being swift hunter builds since they have a built in mechanic that ignores immunities)

unless you go EPIC most base caster classes are not worth staying 20 levels in (the dread necromancer is one of the few exceptions I can think of)

thrower builds (due to how enchanting works) have a built in trap (you're literally throwing away money and returning is not worded well to compensate for what). The only exception is a blood storm blade but even that takes way to long to achieve. Also, due to range increments, thrower is incredibly weak compared to archery (with the exception of Iaijutsu focus builds)

[The Viscount]

A trap with a non-devastating penalty, but a class that I would nonetheless call a trap is the Alienist.

Yes it is full casting, and it advances familiar.

However, it thinks that 3 hitpoints are so neat that it gives them to you twice and slaps you with a massive penalty to certain skill in exchange.

And more importantly, it is a summoning focused class that forbids you from summoning anything but pseudonatural animals ever again. For a summoner, that's removed the bulk of things you care about.

[zyggythorn]

The utter Tri-suck-ta: OA samurai, soul knife, and true namer.

OA Samurai is strictly worse than fighter, getting 1 feat/3 lv, with ewp and ancestral relic tacked on. And your bonus feats must be taken from specific clan lists. Atleast it was fixed into a decent fear tankwiyh CW.

Soul knife (as written) looks awesome but... Isn't. Gets no powers, or power points, and eventually can do some stuff. Decent with PrC's and ACF's.

True namer.... Literally gets worse the more class lvs you have. The DC is (AFB atm) 10+2HD, which a player can never overcome.

[Renen]

Well not to say truenamer is good or anything... But technically you can "overcome" the increase of twice your HD because you also get higher WBL, which you can use on items which boost the skill.

[Ethernil]

The utter Tri-suck-ta: OA samurai, soul knife, and true namer.

Soul knife (as written) looks awesome but... Isn't. Gets no powers, or power points, and eventually can do some stuff. Decent with PrC's and ACF's.

True namer.... Literally gets worse the more class lvs you have. The DC is (AFB atm) 10+2HD, which a player can never overcome.

Soul knife into soul bow is actually a pretty good archer. True namer is the epitome of bad design, to a point I would consider ripping the pages off the book.

Soulborn is worse than a fighter picking incarnum feats or any class dipping incarnate. Incarnate 6 is better than soulborn 20.

Fochulcan lyrist without home brew allowing feats or other cheesy methods of gaining evasion is worse than straight bard.

Warlock is a weak class in comparison to full casters, not a trap, but it's prestige class enlightened spirit is one that doesn't advance invocations, it's like saying: here is a wizard prc with no caster lvl increase that allows you to heal with your magic missiles.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Fochulcan lyrist without home brew allowing feats or other cheesy methods of gaining evasion is worse than straight bard.
You get to augment bard casting and music with druid casting (and full base attack), that's not worse than a straight bard. Worse than a straight druid, but then most things are. Of course, like all theurge builds, FL builds take a while to come online, but I wouldn't hold that against any theurge class specifically.

A very basic rogue 2/druid 1/bard 7/fochlucan lyrist 10 build is very functional tier 3, with access to 6th-level bard and druid spells, 17 base attack bonus, and 17th-level bardic music. The more druid-focused rogue 2/bard 1/druid 7/fochlucan lyrist 10 gets druid 9ths and bard 4ths, with 11th-level bardic music and 17 base attack bonus. These builds aren't even optimized for theurging (other than illumian early entry). Evasion takes two feats to get, so it's pretty straightforward (just feat-starved) to go druid 3/bard 1/mystic theurge 2/arcane hierophant 4/fochlucan lyrist 10, for 19th-level druid casting, 17th-level bard casting, and 17 base attack bonus.

In short: Fochlucan Lyrist definitely requires some tricks, but it's not a trap - you won't cripple your character by taking it, and it's about as good as it looks (powerful but tricky). It's not worse than straight bard, and an acceptable power loss compared to straight druid, because, let's face it: if you can't lose power compared to a straight druid, we're left with very few classes to pick from.

[Troacctid]

You can do even better than that. Bard/Druid/Green Whisperer/Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyrist, with Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra to get evasion and Able Learner to hit the skill requirements, is a legitimately strong build.

[Ethernil]

You get to augment bard casting and music with druid casting (and full base attack), that's not worse than a straight bard. Worse than a straight druid, but then most things are. Of course, like all theurge builds, FL builds take a while to come online, but I wouldn't hold that against any theurge class specifically.

A very basic rogue 2/druid 1/bard 7/fochlucan lyrist 10 build is very functional tier 3, with access to 6th-level bard and druid spells, 17 base attack bonus, and 17th-level bardic music. The more druid-focused rogue 2/bard 1/druid 7/fochlucan lyrist 10 gets druid 9ths and bard 4ths, with 11th-level bardic music and 17 base attack bonus. These builds aren't even optimized for theurging (other than illumian early entry). Evasion takes two feats to get, so it's pretty straightforward (just feat-starved) to go druid 3/bard 1/mystic theurge 2/arcane hierophant 4/fochlucan lyrist 10, for 19th-level druid casting, 17th-level bard casting, and 17 base attack bonus.

In short: Fochlucan Lyrist definitely requires some tricks, but it's not a trap - you won't cripple your character by taking it, and it's about as good as it looks (powerful but tricky). It's not worse than straight bard, and an acceptable power loss compared to straight druid, because, let's face it: if you can't lose power compared to a straight druid, we're left with very few classes to pick from.

If you wana go through that kind of hogey pogey you can go something like bard 8 druid 1 sublime chord 1 lyrist 10 for 9th lvl sorc spells. For some reason i had missed that lyrist advances bardix music, my bad. The only problem is that for the first 12ish levels you re gona be of a lower power level than even mildly optimized teammates. Especially if your campaign starts @ lvl 1 it i going to be painful.

[Jormengand]

True namer.... Literally gets worse the more class lvs you have. The DC is (AFB atm) 10+2HD, which a player can never overcome.

I think you misspelled "Easily", pardner. By level 3, you should be able to pass your truespeak checks without needing to roll. By level 8, you should be able to quicken utterances without having to roll.

I do love all the hate that truenamer gets from people who have, in about 80% of cases, never played one, though.

[CharonsHelper]

No. Monk is the kind of class that new and inexperienced players look at and go "Whoah! I'll do a monk in each and every campaign I will play!", and then they do so with great disappointment of their fellow players.

Seriously, I've met more than a couple monk fans that build it crappily and then charge against a demon horde and die horribly and then make another monk character worse than the previous. :smallmad:


...sorry, you touched a sore spot :smallconfused:

In 3.5 monk was an okay 2 level dip for all of the feats & all high saves. But actually playing a monk as a monk? Yes. It epitomizes a trap class because it looks so cool to new players. (My first 3.5 was a monk, though in some ways fortunately that campaign didn't get past 2nd level.)

That was one class which Pathfinder (eventually) fixed rather nicely. (You need either Unchained Monk or the Qinggong archetype stealth buff to make it good.)

[The Viscount]

While a trust that you can accomplish your claims, even with roughly at will utterances (until resistance stops you) Truenamer simply isn't very strong. I am firmly of the belief that a class should not require optimization to be playable. With all the effort and wealth you're spending on this, there can't be much left over, can there? Also, out of curiosity, does it remain easy to pass your checks at higher levels, or without truespeak tools and an item familiar?

[digiman619]

I think you misspelled "Easily", pardner. By level 3, you should be able to pass your truespeak checks without needing to roll. By level 8, you should be able to quicken utterances without having to roll.

I do love all the hate that truenamer gets from people who have, in about 80% of cases, never played one, though.

well, yes; If you make it extremely optimized, it's OK; not great but OK. (as in T4). However, unless you are an optimizing wizard, it's easy to make a build that is crippled at best.

[Willie the Duck]

You can do even better than that. Bard/Druid/Green Whisperer/Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyrist, with Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra to get evasion and Able Learner to hit the skill requirements, is a legitimately strong build.

Yes, by using a Dragon Magazine PrC and Incarnum, you can accomplish what the class probably should have been from the get-go (well, without Sublime chord it is what it should have been from the get-go, with it, it is fairly cheesy). What I dislike about that is that you shouldn't have to do that to make Fochlucan Lyrist a reasonable choice (especially since it makes it so vulnerable to DM veto).



I think you misspelled "Easily", pardner. By level 3, you should be able to pass your truespeak checks without needing to roll. By level 8, you should be able to quicken utterances without having to roll.

I do love all the hate that truenamer gets from people who have, in about 80% of cases, never played one, though.

I think it's folly to assume that any of us are the ones who truly know the game and the people who disagree with us clearly haven't played it. Yes, given how easy it is to improve ones rolls, you can indeed accomplish what the Truenamer was intended to do (which, as pointed out, puts them probably in tier 4), but they end up putting a lot of their resources into doing so while the rest of the party gets their basic abilities right out the gate. Plus of course the fact that they wouldn't have to if the author had made good design decisions.

[Cosi]

I think you misspelled "Easily", pardner. By level 3, you should be able to pass your truespeak checks without needing to roll. By level 8, you should be able to quicken utterances without having to roll.

At level 3 your baseline is +11 (6 Ranks +5 INT), against DC 21. You need to get +9 worth of other bonuses to auto-pass. A +5 necklace is 2,500 GP out of your 2,700 GP, and it still leaves you four points short. Taking freaking Skill Focus leaves you a point short. I'm sure there's something out there I'm forgetting about, but you're investing 90%+ of your resources into just "getting you use your abilities", which counts as easy in absolutely no sense of the word.

But even if you do optimize it, it's still basically worthless. Look at your 1st level utterances. +1 to AC? +5 to skill checks? A 1d6 DoT? That's trash. I'd rather have a Warlock. At least they don't have to give up after half a dozen uses of their disappointing abilities.

The Truenamer has two fundamental problems:

1. Its abilities are almost all turds, with the exception of at-will gate and some that are extremely poorly written.
2. Actually using those abilities involves getting massive skill bonuses, which breaks the game if people are allowed to use your tricks for Diplomacy or UMD + Staves.

It's like showing up with an Incantatrix, then using Extend Spell instead of Persist Spell for your buffs. You jumped through a bunch of hoops, brought something clearly broken into the game, and then threw down something that is barely worth talking about. Why would you do that?


I do love all the hate that truenamer gets from people who have, in about 80% of cases, never played one, though.

I love all the hate being punched in the throat gets from people who have, in about 80% of cases, never been punched in the throat. It turns out that analysis is an actual thing you can actually do, and an analysis of the Truenamer easily demonstrates that it is somewhere between "terrible" and "worthless".

What's next, some guy coming in with an impassioned defense of the Swashbuckler? The Monk? The Ninja? Are we going to get passive aggressive sniping about how we all just don't get the CW Samurai?

[Jormengand]

If you don't think that 3d6 damage at first level (Mortalbane, anyone?) or +5 to all skill checks at first level isn't a decent ability to have quite a few shots at (plus, unlimited out of combat healing at low levels is nice) then I'm not even sure we're playing the same game. If skill focus truespeak counts as high-OP or "Jumping through hoops" then we're definitely not.

But hey, if the truenamer's crap, can we take a moment to talk about the fighter, the barbarian, the rogue, the paladin, the ranger, the monk, the, like, half of classes in the game? Because obviously, if "Trap" means "Not as good as a wizard" or even "Not as good as a 6-level caster" then of course most classes are going to be a trap, but if you're not playing a "Hey, let's become a god by the time we're 8th level!" kind of game, it's not exactly the worst thing you can take if you have a clue what you're doing.

[Cosi]

If you don't think that 3d6 damage at first level (Mortalbane, anyone?)

I'll take "things a Warlock can also do" for $500, Alex. Also, you're either not getting Skill Focus or not getting your +2 INT racial bonus.


If skill focus truespeak counts as high-OP or "Jumping through hoops" then we're definitely not.

No it's not "high OP", but if your plan is to follow up one of the worst classes with one of the worst feats, I'm not optimistic about that going well for you.


But hey, if the truenamer's crap, can we take a moment to talk about the fighter, the barbarian, the rogue, the paladin, the ranger, the monk, the, like, half of classes in the game?

Were you at any point under the delusion that the Fighter, the Barbarian, or the Monk weren't trap classes? Because those are obviously trap classes. Paladin arguably is, Core Ranger probably is (but between Mystic Ranger, Wild Shape Ranger, and Swift Hunter there's enough splat support to make the class overall pretty good). Rogue is actually pretty good if you can get multiple attacks and consistent sneak attack.

[Someguy231]

Because obviously, if "Trap" means "Not as good as a wizard" or even "Not as good as a 6-level caster" then of course most classes are going to be a trap.

How I envisioned what this thread was going to be filled with.

[Jormengand]

Were you at any point under the delusion that the Fighter, the Barbarian, or the Monk weren't trap classes? Because those are obviously trap classes. Paladin arguably is, Core Ranger probably is (but between Mystic Ranger, Wild Shape Ranger, and Swift Hunter there's enough splat support to make the class overall pretty good). Rogue is actually pretty good if you can get multiple attacks and consistent sneak attack.


Yeah, I think the difference here is that we're playing a fundamentally different kind of game. There is a time for "Full casters or bust", and a time for "Hey, let's play some classes with a few cool abilities, do some stuff that we do, and have fun". Sure, if you think that about 45% of the classes of the game are traps, you're entitled to that opinion, but the kind of logic that says that everything that isn't at least a 6th-level caster is a trap is not really going to convince me of anything except that you really, really love full casters. That, and you're convinced that sneak attack is a lot better than it is, but whatever.

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah, I think the difference here is that we're playing a fundamentally different kind of game. There is a time for "Full casters or bust", and a time for "Hey, let's play some classes with a few cool abilities, do some stuff that we do, and have fun". Sure, if you think that about 45% of the classes of the game are traps, you're entitled to that opinion, but the kind of logic that says that everything that isn't at least a 6th-level caster is a trap is not really going to convince me of anything except that you really, really love full casters. That, and you're convinced that sneak attack is a lot better than it is, but whatever.

He never said anything of the sort, and implying that he did suggests that you aren't confident arguing against the position he actually took. I know the term gets hopelessly misused almost every time it is brought forth on an internet discussion, but I feel that you are making a straw man. Argue against what he actually said, not the argument that you'd like to be having. He suggested that late 3e rangers, as well as rogues were examples of non-trap martial classes. Perhaps you should ask his opinion about ToB classes, or Duskblades (not a 6th-level caster), etc. I'd love to hear your thoughts on his comments about dedicating a feat and 90% of wpl to get near guaranteed success at 3rd level.

Anyways, we don't really have a definition of trap yet (the OP mentioned "traps, mechanicaly weak, failing to justify bringing to a group," implying that mechanically weak of unjustified in a group were things other than traps he was looking to discuss, so what is 'traps?'). I would posit that to be a trap, it has to look good going in, and then disappoint. Monks certainly do this. Fighters as well (all those feats should be beneficial). I would disagree with Cosi on barbarians -- I think they give you exactly what they advertise. Paladin has a role (martial with crazy good saves) and a purpose, they are just so so MAD (We moved all the Wis-based class features over to Cha, and it made them quite playable). It's really the mounted combat system which is a trap (making their mount less useful than otherwise might be the case) which disappoints, not them.

[Jormengand]

It's the direction he always takes this argument in, so I have no real qualms assuming he intends to now. You're also a truenamer, so you have nothing better to spend your feats or items on than improving your truespeak check.

[Troacctid]

I do love all the hate that truenamer gets from people who have, in about 80% of cases, never played one, though.
I think 80% is a lowball estimate, actually.

Truenamers catch more flak than they deserve. The truth is that you can make the DCs just fine given only a bare minimum of effort. You won't be able to use all your utterances twenty times a day each, boo hoo, maybe go cry to the shadowcaster about how limited your daily resources are. And you have to roll a d20 to see if your action succeeds, oh no, it's almost like that's this game's core mechanic.

The actual reason why truenamers are bad is because the available utterances are just super underwhelming. But the class is very far from being the worst you can do. At least it actually compares well against NPC classes, unlike certain non-buckler-proficient swashbuckling classes I could name.

[Cosi]

Yeah, I think the difference here is that we're playing a fundamentally different kind of game. There is a time for "Full casters or bust", and a time for "Hey, let's play some classes with a few cool abilities, do some stuff that we do, and have fun".

I want to point out that this is a pretty clever argument Jormengand is making. Rather than defending the position he actually staked ("the Truenamer is not a trap option"), he's opted to defend the completely unrelated position "Cosi is a filthy min-maxer". He has yet to do basic things like showing the math behind auto-passing at Truespeak checks at 3rd, and that the big trick he showed us for the Truenamer (Mortalbane) works just as well with Warlocks.


That, and you're convinced that sneak attack is a lot better than it is, but whatever.

Yet another completely unsupported assertion (well, implication). Generally speaking, you can get pretty consistent sneak attack triggers with a Ring of Blinking or similar, and wands of various gravestrike type spells make immunities largely a non-issue.


Anyways, we don't really have a definition of trap yet (the OP mentioned "traps, mechanicaly weak, failing to justify bringing to a group," implying that mechanically weak of unjustified in a group were things other than traps he was looking to discuss, so what is 'traps?'). I would posit that to be a trap, it has to look good going in, and then disappoint.

Let me ramble a bit about things I consider to be traps.

First, classes that make you worse at whatever you set out to do. Consider, for example, the Mindbender. Taking more than one level of Mindbender costs you enough casting that the bonus abilities it gives you make you end up with less mind magic than you would have gotten if you had gone straight Wizard (or Beguiler, or Sorcerer). There are very few classes that fall into this category, but there are a lot of PrCs that do. Notably, just about any half casting PrC.

Second, classes that are inferior versions of other classes. There's no reason to play a Fighter if you're allowed to play a Warblade. There's very little reason to play a Sorcerer or Wizard specializing in Necromancy or Enchantment if you're allowed to play a Dread Necromancer or Beguiler (not none, but those classes are generally superior, particularly if you're tightly focused). This is not always completely clear cut. For example, is the niche of Divine Grace + Smiting + Mount enough to separate the Paladin from an LG War Cleric? I'd be inclined to say no, but you could reasonably say there are. Most martial classes fall into this category, especially with ToB in the mix.

Third, classes that are simply very bad. Monks, Truenamers, Samurai, and so on. It's not necessarily that there's some super-Samurai out there that would put your Samurai to shame, the class is just really bad.


He suggested that late 3e rangers, as well as rogues were examples of non-trap martial classes. Perhaps you should ask his opinion about ToB classes, or Duskblades (not a 6th-level caster), etc.[/QUOTE]

I should point out that there's nothing wrong with choosing to play a trap option (except insofar as not being able to pull your weight hurts other people's fun). If you have fun playing a Warmage or a Monk, that's fine. I'm not going to beat you up for having different tastes than I do. That said, the fact that you can have fun with a trap option doesn't make it not a trap option.

All that aside, there are plenty of things which aren't 6th+ casters that I would call not traps. Off the top of my head, Binders and Totemists are pretty good, there are some PrCs that can keep a Fighter-type going for a while (i.e. Warshaper), and there are some caster PrCs which, while pretty bad in comparison to straight casters, compare favorably to most classes (i.e. Master of Many Forms).


Truenamers catch more flak than they deserve. The truth is that you can make the DCs just fine given only a bare minimum of effort.

That's certainly a looser statement than Jormengand's, but I'd still like to see one of the Truenamer defenders actually run down what the "easy tricks" to make DCs are.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Warlock is a weak class in comparison to full casters, not a trap, but it's prestige class enlightened spirit is one that doesn't advance invocations, it's like saying: here is a wizard prc with no caster lvl increase that allows you to heal with your magic missiles.

Ummmmmm. . . You know that there are more prestige classes for warlock, right? I assume you're just bagging on enlightened spirit (which in all fairness sucks pretty hard), but I just wanted to clarify that A) everything is weak next to full casters and B) warlocks can be very effective at killing things if built intelligently, and have some interesting options in terms of mobility.

[Someguy231]

Don't mind me. I'm just cooking up the popcorn

[Troacctid]

That's certainly a looser statement than Jormengand's, but I'd still like to see one of the Truenamer defenders actually run down what the "easy tricks" to make DCs are.
Max ranks. Silver tongue amulet. Headband of intellect. Skill Focus. Have Intelligence as your highest stat. There you go, you can now make your scaling DCs more than half the time at every level, and you barely even had to try.

[Cosi]

Max ranks. Silver tongue amulet. Headband of intellect. Skill Focus. Have Intelligence as your highest stat. There you go, you can now make your scaling DCs more than half the time at every level, and you barely even had to try.

Let's break that down.

First, note that what you're proposing is "what a normal character does, but more". That's already a bad deal.

Second, you're still looking at a failure chance. Not necessarily 50%, but something. Maybe 15%. How many Wizards do you see wearing Studded Leather armor? In my experience, not a whole lot.

Third, even if you make the check, the ability can still fail (i.e. saves). Yes, that's the same deal as any other caster, but did you see the last two points about how much worse your setup is than other casters?

To recap, you do more work that other casters, accept a failure chance anyway, and your abilities aren't any more consistent themselves. That seems pretty much like a trap to me, and that's without mentioning any of the ways that the actual abilities the class gets are awful.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Max ranks. Silver tongue amulet. Headband of intellect. Skill Focus. Have Intelligence as your highest stat. There you go, you can now make your scaling DCs more than half the time at every level, and you barely even had to try.
Masterwork tool, too. At level 3, when you can't afford the amulet or headband, you get 6 ranks + 4 int + 2 tool + 3 skill focus = +15, versus a DC of 16 for on-CR targets. Probably gets you more successful casts than a sorcerer of equivalent level, just much less power per cast, sadly, and fewer free feats to shore up some of your numeric deficiencies (because you're shoring up your Truespeak deficiency).

[Troacctid]

I'm not saying that truenamer isn't a bad class, because it is a bad class. But it's not because "Oh, the DCs are out of whack, it literally doesn't function!" It can function. It's bad because it doesn't do anything, even when you can make the DC consistently.

[Ethernil]

Ummmmmm. . . You know that there are more prestige classes for warlock, right? I assume you're just bagging on enlightened spirit (which in all fairness sucks pretty hard), but I just wanted to clarify that A) everything is weak next to full casters and B) warlocks can be very effective at killing things if built intelligently, and have some interesting options in terms of mobility.

Yes, i was refering to the awful prc. I actually prefer warlocks, binders, specialized casters like beguiler and warmage to wizards and other t1 classes. Picking those makes a much more balanced group and your team mates can fit in your group nicely even with a monk, you wont be stealing the spotlight, at least not without breaking a sweat optimizing.

[nyjastul69]

Max ranks. Silver tongue amulet. Headband of intellect. Skill Focus. Have Intelligence as your highest stat. There you go, you can now make your scaling DCs more than half the time at every level, and you barely even had to try.

Definitions vary of course, but that is some serious resourcing. To call it barely trying sounds disingenuous.

[Troacctid]

Definitions vary of course, but that is some serious resourcing. To call it barely trying sounds disingenuous.
It's literally just an ability enhancer for your primary stat and one other magic item that is designed especially for the class. It is the laziest item loadout I can imagine for a truenamer. It's the equivalent of buying a belt of strength and a +1 flaming weapon for a barbarian. And by my math, both items combined are taking up less than a quarter of your overall WBL at any given level, so it's hardly a serious resource expenditure.

[Renen]

Definitions vary of course, but that is some serious resourcing. To call it barely trying sounds disingenuous.

Oh come on. I wouldn't say that having high int for a class relying on INT is serious resourcing. I wouldn't say having max ranks in a skill that's important is high resourcing. I wouldn't say that having a headband of intellect as a class that relies on int is... Or the feat.
The only possible arguments you can make is against the silver tongue amulet.

Edit: Right it's made for truenamer. Nevermind

[nyjastul69]

It's literally just an ability enhancer for your primary stat and one other magic item that is designed especially for the class. It is the laziest item loadout I can imagine for a truenamer. It's the equivalent of buying a belt of strength and a +1 flaming weapon for a barbarian. And by my math, both items combined are taking up less than a quarter of your overall WBL at any given level, so it's hardly a serious resource expenditure.

It's more than that. Max ranks, high Int, a crappy feat, a magic item, another magic item. These are all investments. These are the foci of the build. It's not a small investment.

[Troacctid]

If you're going to seriously suggest that a truenamer might choose to not put maximum ranks in Truespeak and not spend her WBL on obvious, powerful, level-appropriate items that synergize with her class, I guess I don't know what to tell you?

You're right, a naked truenamer with low Intelligence and no ranks in Truespeak is a glorified aristocrat. But a reasonable person would not say that that makes the class nonfunctional.

Here is my math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17MCVFx-p0qT3fUvRseEes0873CJqnxbbVeQAYS4uYaM/pubhtml), by the way. I misremembered, you actually do fall below 50% at level 20, but since you have gate at will at that point, it's probably not a big deal.

[CharonsHelper]

It's more than that. Max ranks, high Int, a crappy feat, a magic item, another magic item. These are all investments. These are the foci of the build. It's not a small investment.

Wait - my ranger needs a good STR, good DEX, a decent WIS, he also needs to buy a bow, arrows, AND armor? And he actually has to spend at least 3 feats (PB/Precise/Rapid-Shot) to actually do his archery job properly!? *flips table* (I'm with others though - that doesn't mean that Truenamer is a good class.)

[nyjastul69]

If you're going to seriously suggest that a truenamer might choose to not put maximum ranks in Truespeak and not spend her WBL on obvious, powerful, level-appropriate items that synergize with her class, I don't know what to tell you.

You're right, a naked truenamer with low Intelligence and no ranks in Truespeak is a glorified aristocrat. But a reasonable person would not say that that makes the class nonfunctional.

I suggested nothing of the sort. I only stated that I feel it is a greater investment than you implied.

[TheCrowing1432]

The thing about these type of threads is, its too easy to establish a definition of "traps" and answer the question easilly.


I mean, I just say "All PRC's with less then full caster progression are traps" which....takes care of a huge swathe of PRC's in the game.

[The Viscount]

Here is my math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17MCVFx-p0qT3fUvRseEes0873CJqnxbbVeQAYS4uYaM/pubhtml), by the way. I misremembered, you actually do fall below 50% at level 20, but since you have gate at will at that point, it's probably not a big deal.

All right clearly I kicked up a bit of a hornet's nest. I didn't mean to cause such trouble, let's try and clear the air and cool down a bit.

Asking completely out of curiosity, is the math here representing a partial investment of resources, or is that as good as your mod can be expected to get? Are you satisfied with those success percentiles? Are you using similar things to pump up the saves, or are you simply avoiding utterances with saves?

[Troacctid]

Nah, it's nowhere close to maximized. It's meant to represent a baseline low-op level. Two very obvious items (added at the level recommended by the Magic Item Compendium—you could get them sooner if you wanted to craft them yourself or spend a greater percentage of your wealth), an obvious feat, and 16 starting Int. Jormengand can probably tell you more about how to actually optimize the check; I'm not really much of a truenamer fangirl, I don't remember all the tricks. Something something illumian, something something competence bonus? *shrug*

Of course you also have to keep in mind that these are the DCs to target your allies with an Utterance of the Evolving Mind. You get a +4 bonus when targeting yourself, which I didn't include. That helps a lot. (You can get the bonus for your allies if you research their personal truenames, I suppose.) And anything from the other two lexicons is going to have a significantly lower DC—Utterances of the Crafted Tool are essentially a flat DC 25, only slightly higher for magic items, easy enough to do all day. Utterances of the Perfected Map DCs are a little higher, but still flat, and lower than the Evolving Mind DCs at every point in your progression, so even my low-op math quickly auto-succeeds.

And I spent like 10 minutes on this like a month or two ago for a totally different thing, so don't worry, this isn't me going into Research Mode just to knock you down in this thread. :smallwink:

[Big Fau]

If you're going to seriously suggest that a truenamer might choose to not put maximum ranks in Truespeak and not spend her WBL on obvious, powerful, level-appropriate items that synergize with her class, I guess I don't know what to tell you?

You're right, a naked truenamer with low Intelligence and no ranks in Truespeak is a glorified aristocrat. But a reasonable person would not say that that makes the class nonfunctional.

Here is my math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17MCVFx-p0qT3fUvRseEes0873CJqnxbbVeQAYS4uYaM/pubhtml), by the way. I misremembered, you actually do fall below 50% at level 20, but since you have gate at will at that point, it's probably not a big deal.

Just gonna say; outside of the Gate "at will" thing, Truenamer utterances are typically underpowered for the levels you acquire them at. And the Law of Sequence isn't helping.

Nor is the metautterance abilities. Those are nearly worthless to use due to how badly they screw up the DCs.


You get a +4 bonus when targeting yourself, which I didn't include. That helps a lot. (You can get the bonus for your allies if you research their personal truenames, I suppose.)

Nitpick edit: You only get the +4 for saying your own personal truename. Using anyone else's doesn't give you a +4, and actually increases the target DC by 2. In fact, there's no special text negating the +2 to the DC for using your own personal truename in an utterance!

[Ethernil]

I woul really appreciate it if we didn't turn this thread to a personal dispute one. Also it would be fun to also discuss other classes than the true namer.

[Cerefel]

More than 3 or so levels of Bear Warrior is probably too high of an opportunity cost to be worth the levels, but it's still really tempting to try to get to the second and third bear forms.

[Seppo87]

More than 3 or so levels of Bear Warrior is probably too high of an opportunity cost to be worth the levels
By my personal standards, 5 is a fair trade, 10 is worthless

[Ethernil]

Bear warrior swaps your rage to wild shape into a bear right? So doesn't that mean that you can no longr use weapons?

[Seppo87]

Bear warrior swaps your rage to wild shape into a bear right? So doesn't that mean that you can no longr use weapons?

That's why you're supposed to pair it with Fist of the Forest if you want to optimize.
(there are various entries, including a very solid monk dip - in b4 "lol monk trap class" people need to start actually check the numbers and evaluate corner cases like this)
This way you get to make an unarmed full attack with claws and bite at the end (faqs confirm, it's allowed)

[Gildedragon]

That's why you're supposed to pair it with Fist of the Forest if you want to optimize.
(there are various entries, including a very solid monk dip - in b4 "lol monk trap class" sorry to say that came and went a ways back...

[Seppo87]

sorry to say that came and went a ways back...

I don't know this idiomatic expression - and google didn't help.

[OldTrees1]

I don't know this idiomatic expression - and google didn't help.

It is form of "has come and gone" (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/has+come+and+gone) meaning "has already arrived and has already departed".

Basically "You missed it" or "It already happened"

[Gildedragon]

I don't know this idiomatic expression - and google didn't help.

Monk as trap was already talked about:
Monk good for dip, but it's barrage of class features are the quintessential trap: it looks extremely good and even OP (no dead levels!) but is much weaker than it appears

[Bobby Baratheon]

While on the subject of crappy PRC's, how about the blighter? It's somewhat mitigated by being a druid class, but it pretty much makes you straight up worse. You liked that casting? Cool, now it's gone. You can get it back, you say? But with a much worse list compared to core and with the loss of all the druid splatbook spells? Well shucks. Also, you have to mordor a 20 foot square of land to be able to use your spells, which is kind of silly.

It's honestly not that bad compared to other classes/builds (you still get 9ths, after all). It just sucks pretty hard compared to Druid.

[Gildedragon]

While on the subject of crappy PRC's, how about the blighter? It's somewhat mitigated by being a druid class, but it pretty much makes you straight up worse. You liked that casting? Cool, now it's gone. You can get it back, you say? But with a much worse list compared to core and with the loss of all the druid splatbook spells? Well shucks. Also, you have to mordor a 20 foot square of land to be able to use your spells, which is kind of silly.

It's honestly not that bad compared to other classes/builds (you still get 9ths, after all). It just sucks pretty hard compared to Druid.

True. Traps needn't be wholly BAD; just bad at what they claim to advance and bad in deceptive ways.
For example vow of poverty is bad on a sorcerer or druid; but it is straight out a trap on a monk, because it bills itself as concordant with the monk's shtick but actually handicaps the class further

Master of the Unseen Hand is a trap because it seems to advance spellcasting (or at least give more spell slots) because its shtick will burn through spell slots like mad, but it doesn't.

Paladin into Antipaladin is likewise a trap, where getting the best bonus features and advancing the antipaladin class are at odds with each other

True Necromancer...
It isn't so much the bad class features but that the class doesn't do what it sets out to do.

[Willie the Duck]

True Necromancer...
It isn't so much the bad class features but that the class doesn't do what it sets out to do.

Most theurge builds (without early entry shenanigans, which we'd have to evaluate on a case-by-case basis) are like that -- they promise more spell diversity, but because spells/day and diversity go up along with power for spellcasters, it usually doesn't actually do that.

Gishes... I guess it really depends on what you think Gishes advertise themselves as. If they are advertised as PCs who can cast or who can front-line: trap. If they are either a spellcaster with more survivability or a strategic PC like rangers and rogues, then sure.

[CharonsHelper]

Master of the Unseen Hand is a trap because it seems to advance spellcasting (or at least give more spell slots) because its shtick will burn through spell slots like mad, but it doesn't.


I will say - I used Master of the Unseen Hand very effectively once. (Not on a PC.)

The boss of the entire campaign was a master vampire (in that campaign - she was the progenitor of all vampires) and she took all of the levels. It worked because master vampires have Telekinesis at will and their crappy HD didn't matter because, being undead, she always got d12s anyway. So it made her at-will telekinesis better and had full BAB. (Very handy since she mostly used telekinesis to chuck stuff at people or close to melee with Flurry of Blows.)

But you're right - it's terrible for spell-casters. Though, I did think that even in the class description it was implied that many/most of those in the class got Telekinesis as a racial thing. I believe it mentioned githyanki and beholders.

[Ethernil]

True. Traps needn't be wholly BAD; just bad at what they claim to advance and bad in deceptive ways.
For example vow of poverty is bad on a sorcerer or druid; but it is straight out a trap on a monk, because it bills itself as concordant with the monk's shtick but actually handicaps the class further

Master of the Unseen Hand is a trap because it seems to advance spellcasting (or at least give more spell slots) because its shtick will burn through spell slots like mad, but it doesn't.

Master of the unseen hand is actually fun on a ghost character. But that is another extremely corner case.

[Gildedragon]

I will say - I used Master of the Unseen Hand very effectively once. (Not on a PC.)

The boss of the entire campaign was a master vampire (in that campaign - she was the progenitor of all vampires) and she took all of the levels. It worked because master vampires have Telekinesis at will and their crappy HD didn't matter because, being undead, she always got d12s anyway. So it made her at-will telekinesis better and had full BAB. (Very handy since she mostly used telekinesis to chuck stuff at people or close to melee with Flurry of Blows.)

But you're right - it's terrible for spell-casters. Though, I did think that even in the class description it was implied that many/most of those in the class got Telekinesis as a racial thing. I believe it mentioned githyanki and beholders.


Master of the unseen hand is actually fun on a ghost character. But that is another extremely corner case.

Which is sorta my point on trap classes.
They needn't be BAD, but the abilities are meant for very specific builds, while the fluff and presentation invite others.