Opinion on some Events

[Draco_Lord]

So I am just curious as to peoples oppinions about this player and GM interaction. Is one side being unfair? Is this behaviour you would encourage, discourage, or not care about?

Scene 1: Bandits in a dungon. So basically the players want to pass through a fortress but found out that bandits are using it as their den of operations. The players, rather then going through the fortress fighting the bandits room by room, instead set up a fog cloud and with some other magic try to pretend to be a ghost in the fortress to scare the bandits away. The bandits are scared, but don't run, even after a success intimidate check. They instead run forward to attack the fog cloud. The party rogue makes short work of them, while the druid casts entangle to limit their movement. Slowly more bandits show up, each time one or two making it into the fog, getting killed by the party, and having a head or two rolled back out for dramatic flare. Not a single bandit runs, the bandit lord claims this is all fake, and swiftly dies.

Scene 2: The party arrives at a pass in the mountains, they are told it is dangerous to go through as wild beast stalk that area. The druid suggests going over the mountain instead, the DM is upset by this, definitely wanting the party to go through their prepared dungeon. The druid doesn't really notice, instead climbing up the mountain as a spider. There is a Roc up there (The party is level 4). The druid tries to talk to the Roc, make a new friend and all that. The Roc turns out to be kind of evil, says he enjoys hunting humans for fun, and so the druid wants to remove the menance, which leads to him trying to think up a plan to kill the Roc, and ignoring the path they were told to take.

Scene 3: A party member is kipnapped (player was away at the time, so it was useful). They chase the kidnappers to an old church made of stone. The druid scouts the building, finding where their missing party member is held, wants to just go in direct, so casts stone shape on the wall to create an entrace way and is told that the walls are 7 feet thick, and thus not able to create an entrance. He gets a bit annoyed, and instead tries to tilt the building, at least get the people inside unsure what is happening, summons some animals to help dig, starts to dig out the church's foundation, but is told the church is magic and will not fall even if you removed all the earth under it.

So yeah, just want some opinions. What do you think about the DM actions? The players actions?

As a side note, this is the DM first time DMing.

[MrUberGr]

1. First of all, I think there should have been more dice checks.
I would have don Wis throw for bandit army, and another Wis throw for bandit leader. If both fail then they flee. If army fails but leader succeeds Persuasion check to get the army to stay.

Other questions would be:
Did the bandits have another way to leave?
Have they faced magic before?

2. Obviously the dm wanted them to go in. But the threat was wrong. The DM should say: "you will need 3 weeks extra to go over, and you do not have cold gear and might die at the top".
P.S. Rocs are not evil. Should've used a dragon. Other than that, mieh.

3. General sillyness. If the player managed to dig out the church it should tilt. However the time needed should be very long. Also only castles or castle walls might have 7foot stone walls. Unless it's Super Pelor temple I guess.

Just give the following advice to your DM: Whenever something is planned have at least three ways to complete it, and be prepared to improvise for your players' actions. The players will never think what the dm thought when coming up with the encounter.

I once had a monk run up a wall of force to get to the cultist casters. My solution was to shoot the chandelier hanging over them to disrupt the casting! You can NEVER be prepared for your player's actions

[Rusvul]

It sounds to me like the DM wants their story to be told. Their monsters, their dungeons, their railroad. There's nothing inherently wrong with that- there's a place for that style of game. But it sounds like the players want a more open-ended game where creative solutions are rewarded. The DM is pushing back against that by ad-libbing in random things to nullify the players' creativity. Nothing egregious has occurred, but I'd get the group together and have a chat about what everyone (DM included) wants the game to be. It's likely that some sort of compromise could be made.

You might also have your DM look into node-based adventure design- That could be a good compromise between the DM's wish for their story and the players' wish for an open-ended adventure.

[smcmike]

1. The players' idea is fun, and allowing it to work for a little while is nice. At some point it strains believability, though, and also drains the challenge from the game. I would have allowed the players to slaughter a bandit or two, but after that the remaining bandits would recognize a serious threat and start to actively plan to deal with it. This might work out very poorly for the players: they've essentially given away the element of surprise with their strategy. That's on them though.

2. Yeah, mountains are hard to cross for spiders too. If the DM doesn't want you just scaling the mountain, a bit of nasty weather and extreme terrain should really do it. Mountains are scary! As for planning to kill the Roc, that's probably biting off more than the Druid can chew without much of a reason. It sounds like the incentive to get over the mountains quickly wasn't strong enough. Also, was the Druid doing a bit of spotlight hogging at this point?

3. I would have allowed the stone shape to work, and it does sound a bit suspicious to suddenly declare that the walls are seven feet thick.

On the other hand, "tilting" the church is a remarkably silly idea, and the magic explanation is totally unnecessary.

[Blarmb]

It sounds like the DM wants to running a relatively straightforward adventure without a lot of improvisation.
It sounds like the players want to be doing wacky, lets take our powers to the max and turn the world upside down hijinks.


These are both fine things to do want to do, but it seems like there was a failure to get everyone on the same page at some point.

[Ninja_Prawn]

There are issues here that others have already picked up. People may not have been on the same page. The church walls shouldn't be 7 feet thick (though in some settings having magical foundations to hold it in place isn't so farfetched). The structure of the encounters in terms of obstacles and incentives to overcome them could probably have been better, though not many DMs are going to be five-star brilliance all the time in that regard. The bandit leader's realisation that the 'ghost' was a trick probably could have been handled more organically, etc. etc.

What gets me though, is how is a fourth-level druid casting Stone Shape? :smalltongue:

[Easy_Lee]

Just to address the first point, the bandits ought to have run. Most people spend most days of their life not dying, and that's because people are remarkably willing to walk, or run, away from threats. One head rolling out would have resulted in the bandits saying "screw that" and leaving, assuming these bandits behave like normal people.

A lot of people seem to forget, in real life and especially in fantasy, that most people are not psychopaths. Your foe lies beaten before you; can you now bludgeon him to death with a club? 98% of actual human beings could not bring themselves to do it. Wanton killing? Not something most people are even capable of doing. Charging fearlessly into a pointless battle? Not gonna happen; people will hide behind cover and generally avoid getting killed. Dangerous wild animal in the house? People run.

Too often, D&D humanoids don't behave like actual humans.

[Bubzors]

1) I don't really have a problem with this except that the bandits ran conga line style to their death. I might have allowed the first wave tentatively head in. But after that they are experienced fighter in possession of a fortress. They might pull back to reevaluate. For ghosts to suddenly appear in a place I assume didn't have a ghost proble before is a little fishyou. So in short, players might get and early advantage but wouldn't scare everyone off.

2) as others have said, the DM should have emphasized how difficult it is to scale a mountain directly over even as a spider. Weather and distances might add time you can't waste getting over it.

3) this is the most egregious of the 3. It's obvious he didn't want the players circumnavigating his plans. No wall except for an outer fortress wall should be 7 ft thick. And for it suddenly to be declared magical? Yea, that's a **** move

Overall sounds like your DM is new like you said. He makes plans and when the players leave the tracks he doesn't quite know how to handle it. Every new DM screws up like this at times, hell even very experienced DMs do it occasionally.

My advice to him is to never believe the players will think the same as him. Think of multiple ways for a goal to be accomplished so you have at least a basis for when the players do something wacky. And for the players, they might want the freedom to do anything, but if you know it's a new DM maybe cut some slack and don't go completely off into the woods. Work with the DM a bit and they'll probably have a better time. Maybe the dungeon is super cool and the DM just wants to show it off.

[Blarmb]

Just to address the first point, the bandits ought to have run. Most people spend most days of their life not dying, and that's because people are remarkably willing to walk, or run, away from threats. One head rolling out would have resulted in the bandits saying "screw that" and leaving, assuming these bandits behave like normal people.

A lot of people seem to forget, in real life and especially in fantasy, that most people are not psychopaths. Your foe lies beaten before you; can you now bludgeon him to death with a club? 98% of actual human beings could not bring themselves to do it. Wanton killing? Not something most people are even capable of doing. Charging fearlessly into a pointless battle? Not gonna happen; people will hide behind cover and generally avoid getting killed. Dangerous wild animal in the house? People run.

Too often, D&D humanoids don't behave like actual humans.

This depends. I think if you're going for a more/less modern feel with a fantasy coat of paint that's fine. It's the only way I play. However if you're taking the whole medieval times thing as more than just skin, this is less true. Things back then were brutal, and the people similarly so. If you weren't going to cave in a defeated guy's head with a club it's because you had something better to do with your time, not that doing so would bother you.

We benefit a lot form a modern social structures, strong states, broad social inclusion and the long term stability this affords us on a personal level. This gives a vision of what a "normal" person does that probably doesn't hold true for most that have lived.

We're largely detached from just how frequent and normal what is now bone-chilling brutality was for most of human history. Any close examination of our history as species makes our darkest fiction look absolutely optimistic. Game of Thrones is virtually a disneyland theme park of sunshine and sugarcoating compared to the real thing.

Which isn't to say that I'd ever want to play in a game that hewed closer to that reality. Just that bludgeoning people to death, charging into pointless battles and so on very much is within the normal band of human behavior.

[smcmike]

Just to address the first point, the bandits ought to have run. Most people spend most days of their life not dying, and that's because people are remarkably willing to walk, or run, away from threats. One head rolling out would have resulted in the bandits saying "screw that" and leaving, assuming these bandits behave like normal people.

A lot of people seem to forget, in real life and especially in fantasy, that most people are not psychopaths. Your foe lies beaten before you; can you now bludgeon him to death with a club? 98% of actual human beings could not bring themselves to do it. Wanton killing? Not something most people are even capable of doing. Charging fearlessly into a pointless battle? Not gonna happen; people will hide behind cover and generally avoid getting killed. Dangerous wild animal in the house? People run.

Too often, D&D humanoids don't behave like actual humans.

Running is obviously a valid option, but I tend to think that it would be followed by regrouping, telling the boss, and attacking the PCs in force. "Screw that" is a fine first reaction, but bandits may not have a ton of other options if the boss man tells them they WILL kill whatever is behind the mist.

As far as the ability of the average person to kill or get killed, this is worth thinking about, but context is really really important. Plenty of people have, in fact, walked themselves into enemy fire and certain death. Fearlessly? No, probably not. But when turning around will also result in death, but with the additional shame of a court-martial, sometimes you just walk forward.

Similarly, and more darkly, even the worst butchers of history weren't necessarily psychopaths or predisposed to cruelty. My guess is that the majority of people end up being pretty cruel on the wrong circumstances.

[Draco_Lord]

To at least cover some of the replies.

When the druid cast stone shape he was level 7, it was much later in the campaign, so having access to the spell was not an issue.

As for the silliness of the church being tipped, I believe the druid was kind of frustrated at the railroading, and general feel that he had only the one way to proceed, and wanted to try and do something extreme, and tipping a church seemed like an answer to that. Did not help that we misunderstood some of the burrow rules and the abilities of earth elementals (thought that the burrow speed let them just dig up that much dirt in a round). So that probably shouldn't have been allowed in the first place. But whats done is done.

[Corran]

1. It seems to me that your players were creative, and creativity should be rewarded. If as the DM you were not comfortable of throwing away the whole encounter for whatever reason, and having the players claim an easy victory cause of their trick, then at least you should have some of the bandits panic (since they succeeded in an intimidation check) and run away. This way the players are happy since they see that their actions matter and their cunning plan worked to some extent. I dont mean to quote rules or anything like that, I am just saying that since the plan seems clever and creative enough, and since they even spent some resources on it (casting fog cloud and whatever other illusion or spooky rp they performed), it doesnt feel right not to get anything out of it. If none of the bandits run, it just seems like you are saying a big NO to their plan just because you dont like it or because it doesnt fit the story, and that creates a railroading kind of feeling, and personally as a player I never appreciate that. Have the players' actions matter, or at least make them believe that their actions matter (eg have some bandits flee and then have some reinforcements arrive or sth like that).

2. This is a bit more tricky. I completely understand that a DM hates when the players go off-road and bypass prepared dungeons or side quests and such, but the best advice I can give you on that, is to be cool. Players dont do side quest X to enter into prepared dungeon Y? You can always keep that dungeon for a later side quest. Let the players improvise and explore their choices and the world, and improvise along with them, even if you feel that improvising is not your best suite, you will get better at it. I have seen this play too many times, and more often than not I was the instigator of unexpected by the DM decisions in campaigns I played as a player. Heck, in my very first campaign the party was visiting Skuld of Mulhorand for a pit stop before continuing the main quest, and we ended up playing countless sessions there (well, until all the party members died in various horrible ways, mine died at the hands of an angry mob, poor Mordred...), doing our own thing. And till this day the guy who was dming that campaign tells us how easier we had made his life and how he improved at improvising because of this unexpected turn. So.... they want to climb the mountain...? Sure, let them try! Bring up beforehand that they may lack provisions, warm clothing, climbing gear (ninja'd in all that), thus putting some realistic obstacles, but never put invisible walls. The evil Roc is not that bad of an idea, but dont purposely lead them into a tpk, for example, give them a chance to try and go over the mountain unoticed, and throw at them some random encounters maybe. Most importantly!!!! Talk to the players about when they take an unexpected course of action, tell them that improvising is not always easy. I dont mean to talk to them in a way to suggest to them that putting you in a place where you have to improvise is a bad thing, just ask them to work with you and not against you when you are improvising. I mean, when you are improvising you might not get every detail to make sense, just because you are making things up on the fly. The players should help you when you are improvising, they should be working with you, and not against you (such as stressing you out and pointing every little insignificant detail that might not be perfectly polished). If you can accomplish that as a table, everyone will be happy!

3. Mmmmm, you should have let the druid use his spell and open a passage, I fail to see how that would upset your plans, though I might not know every detail. Still, back to point 2, let him do his thing and see how things play out.

[Alejandro]

If the players had used a holocaust cloak and a wheelbarrow instead, Scene 1 could have been great.

[BurgerBeast]

It sounds like you hit the nail on the head when you said it's the DM's first time. I did a lot of this when I was an inexperienced DM. From today's perspective, I cringe at the thought.

My prediction is that the DM needs help. I strongly suggest directing him to the Angry GM. It can be frustrating to plan for hours and then have the whole thing go to waste... but you absolutely have to develop the ability to let it happen. If you get even better, you learn to economize your planning in such a way that you aren't confronted with such a dilemma.

So, while it's easy for me to say that the DM is clearly in the wrong, it's even harder to judge a first-time DM for it. I still do it myself to some degree, and I know DMs, who are better than me, who still do it, after years of experience.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I am just curious as to peoples oppinions about this player and GM interaction. Is one side being unfair? Is this behaviour you would encourage, discourage, or not care about?

Scene 1: Bandits in a dungon. So basically the players want to pass through a fortress but found out that bandits are using it as their den of operations. The players, rather then going through the fortress fighting the bandits room by room, instead set up a fog cloud and with some other magic try to pretend to be a ghost in the fortress to scare the bandits away. The bandits are scared, but don't run, even after a success intimidate check. They instead run forward to attack the fog cloud. The party rogue makes short work of them, while the druid casts entangle to limit their movement. Slowly more bandits show up, each time one or two making it into the fog, getting killed by the party, and having a head or two rolled back out for dramatic flare. Not a single bandit runs, the bandit lord claims this is all fake, and swiftly dies.

Scene 2: The party arrives at a pass in the mountains, they are told it is dangerous to go through as wild beast stalk that area. The druid suggests going over the mountain instead, the DM is upset by this, definitely wanting the party to go through their prepared dungeon. The druid doesn't really notice, instead climbing up the mountain as a spider. There is a Roc up there (The party is level 4). The druid tries to talk to the Roc, make a new friend and all that. The Roc turns out to be kind of evil, says he enjoys hunting humans for fun, and so the druid wants to remove the menance, which leads to him trying to think up a plan to kill the Roc, and ignoring the path they were told to take.

Scene 3: A party member is kipnapped (player was away at the time, so it was useful). They chase the kidnappers to an old church made of stone. The druid scouts the building, finding where their missing party member is held, wants to just go in direct, so casts stone shape on the wall to create an entrace way and is told that the walls are 7 feet thick, and thus not able to create an entrance. He gets a bit annoyed, and instead tries to tilt the building, at least get the people inside unsure what is happening, summons some animals to help dig, starts to dig out the church's foundation, but is told the church is magic and will not fall even if you removed all the earth under it.

So yeah, just want some opinions. What do you think about the DM actions? The players actions?

As a side note, this is the DM first time DMing.

As a disclaimer, being there in person might provide a different perception of DM/player choices/attitudes that a summary simply won't convey.

Scenario 1: It's difficult to assess all the actions without a rundown on the motivating factors for the bandits. For example, maybe the Bandits face possible execution/exile for fleeing.

There is a literary corrolary I was reminded of upon reading this one. In Captain Hook's death scene, all the Lost Boys and Wendy have been captured by Hook's crew and are hostage on Hook's boat. Peter uses subterfuge to sneak on board and hide in the cabin. Hook orders one of his men to get the cat'o'nine tails to flay one of the captives. The crewmember enters the cabin, whereupon Peter kills him and then crows eerily, terrifying the group. The crew learn that one of their men is dead, but despite being terrified of the consequences of marching into likely death, the crew are even more afraid of Hook, so when he orders the next man in, he goes.

Anyway, it seems possible the bandits are more afraid of the captain they know than they are the mysterious cloud that they don't.

Scenario 2: Sorry what dungeon? The DM went out of his way to warn the players not to proceed along the only apparent pathway (a dangerous mountain pass beset by hungry animals!?). And if the DM wants them to enter the dungeon, have them find a hole or whatever that leads into the designated encounters. The player actions were rational, the DM being upset was not.

Scenario 3: I mean, on it's face this sounds like an absurd situation that would call for players to interject with questions about what exactly is going on here. Then again, the scene doesn't really give basic details like....that the "old church" has seven foot thick stone walls.

I might even express amazement that our DM's description was limited to "old church" and wonder what old churches they are familiar with that have walls which have gone well into the realm of heavily reinforced medieval fortress walls. I might also take the time to swear while asking all this. Maybe.