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Durzan
2016-07-15, 10:26 AM
More specifically... Why do some players just randomly stop participating without even speaking to the GM?

I honestly have a pet peeve with this, and just needed to vent a bit. If your going to stop playing, particularly in a PbP, it's common cortesy to let the GM know about it. And yet, I have had this happen to me three different times, at least. Twice on PbP games I started, a player just vanishes from the game. The other time, I was playing tabletop, and the GM just decided to stop coming to the Store we played at... and didn't leave a message (he could've easily contacted us, he had at lleast one of the players numbers). Such is how games fall apart.

Back to the PbP games, the first time was sort of justified, considering that he stopped attending the forum that we were playing on.

The second time... was not justified, as the guy posted twice in the game and then stopped playing! in fact he's still active in other games and posts! I tried PMing him, but no response. Heck I even tracked one of the messages to see if he would even look at it. didnt even touch it. If he was busy, lost interest, or needed to drop out for other reasons, he could've let me and the other players know. Why?!? I'm a nice guy... a bit annoying sometimes, but I usually don't go out of my way to be a jerk. Did I tick this person off in some way?

All I want to know is why such a player would do this? Sorry, but this has been at the back of my mind for a while, and has long been driving me crazy.

Comet
2016-07-15, 10:38 AM
Nerds being nerds. Confrontation is hard, just fading away and putting things out of sight and out of mind is way easier.

Especially true for PbP, where the chances of you accidentally running into someone whose game you've bailed on approaches zero. Anonymity makes irresponsibility way too easy.

J-H
2016-07-15, 10:47 AM
I don't know. Started a game last week... one of the players I selected rolled well, had a finished character sheet, and then never showed up in the IC/OOC threads. I PM'd him twice and even posted on a thread where he was talking about DMing for another game (!!) asking him to check his PMs.

I don't get it.

Of course, he's now blacklisted for as long as I remember his name. Same with a few other people who have totally bailed on games or created lots of stupid drama.

Durzan
2016-07-15, 10:49 AM
Nerds being nerds. Confrontation is hard, just fading away and putting things out of sight and out of mind is way easier.

Especially true for PbP, where the chances of you accidentally running into someone whose game you've bailed on approaches zero. Anonymity makes irresponsibility way too easy.

Makes sense... although it certainly haven't faded from my mind.

Durzan
2016-07-15, 10:50 AM
I don't know. Started a game last week... one of the players I selected rolled well, had a finished character sheet, and then never showed up in the IC/OOC threads. I PM'd him twice and even posted on a thread where he was talking about DMing for another game (!!) asking him to check his PMs.

I don't get it.

Of course, he's now blacklisted for as long as I remember his name. Same with a few other people who have totally bailed on games or created lots of stupid drama.

i know what you mean. This guy had a great or character ready to go In that game... but now said character is in a coma somewhere in the game world.

these days not many people take commitment seriously.

OldTrees1
2016-07-15, 11:01 AM
A)People overestimate their ability and underestimate tasks

B)This forum has a very strong "No gaming is better than bad gaming" advice philosophy that, when hearing only one side of the story, is biased toward no gaming even in the case of minor temporary conflicts.

C)People can forget. This can happen IRL too.

D)*insert more reasons that I omitted*

Durzan
2016-07-15, 11:27 AM
A)People overestimate their ability and underestimate tasks

B)This forum has a very strong "No gaming is better than bad gaming" advice philosophy that, when hearing only one side of the story, is biased toward no gaming even in the case of minor temporary conflicts.

C)People can forget. This can happen IRL too.

D)*insert more reasons that I omitted*

a. Not a real excuse for not letting the GM know.

b. Again, let the GM know privately so he can improve his game based on your feedback. If he doesn't know what he did wrong, then he can't improve. Also, define "bad gaming", as its definition varies from player to player. Leaving two posts into a game on the first page is a bit premature for determining if it's a "bad game".

c. perfectly excusable... although that is what PMs are for...

d. ???

OldTrees1
2016-07-15, 11:28 AM
a. Not a real excuse for not letting the GM know.

b. Again, let the GM know privately so he can improve his game based on your feedback. If he doesn't know what he did wrong, then he can't improve. Also, define "bad gaming", as its definition varies from player to player. Leaving two posts into a game on the first page is a bit premature for determining if it's a "bad game".

c. perfectly excusable... although that is what the spams are for...

d. ???
Not all reasons are justified excuses.

Durzan
2016-07-15, 11:29 AM
Touché, my good man.

PersonMan
2016-07-15, 01:39 PM
I think the following is a common cause:

1. See new post. Not sure how to reply, close tab, leave it for later.
2. Time passes. Become reminded. Look at the thread, remember why it was hard to reply before. Leave it for later.
3. Repeat 2 until it becomes awkward to post in the OOC or IC or PM someone, just leave.
4. Ignore PMs and similar because it's awkward to explain that you just sort of didn't want to post, then left.

Several stages where things can be righted, but all require effort and it's easier to just...let it go.

hymer
2016-07-15, 01:42 PM
I think the following is a common cause:

1. See new post. Not sure how to reply, close tab, leave it for later.
2. Time passes. Become reminded. Look at the thread, remember why it was hard to reply before. Leave it for later.
3. Repeat 2 until it becomes awkward to post in the OOC or IC or PM someone, just leave.
4. Ignore PMs and similar because it's awkward to explain that you just sort of didn't want to post, then left.

Several stages where things can be righted, but all require effort and it's easier to just...let it go.

I consider stage 3 the best observation of these good observations. :smallsmile:

Ninja_Prawn
2016-07-15, 01:49 PM
Yeah. This happens all the time in PbP. And it's not just players; I've lost count of the DMs who've ghosted on me*. Clearly the feedback cycle of writer's block and awkwardness is part of it... and based on various confessions I've read here and elsewhere, it seems that forum environments (especially heavily-modded ones like this) tend to attract a greater proportion of people with anxiety issues than would happen by chance alone. It's not a constructive mix.

Which all means that, when you do get a good group together, it's even more important to keep them together!

*Sometimes I have only myself to blame though; I just joined a game where the recruitment post opened with this:

So, I figured since I'm already DMing one terrible thing, I may as well DM another terrible trainwreck for a week, then abandon it and hate myself for a month or two! Hurray!

Spore
2016-07-15, 01:52 PM
I have only left one campaign I was in and I justified my decision. My reasoning was ... not well received. We played Vampire and I expected a laid back gothic world with mystery, monsters and madness. What our group made out of it was a soap opera vampire style. I also insulted people ingame which weirdly enough the players took personally. I did not clarify that I didn't mean the players and just left.

In hindsight I would have probably preferred never actually talking about my reasons and just stay at home. It would have saved my several messages of whining.

Durzan
2016-07-15, 03:01 PM
I have only left one campaign I was in and I justified my decision. My reasoning was ... not well received. We played Vampire and I expected a laid back gothic world with mystery, monsters and madness. What our group made out of it was a soap opera vampire style. I also insulted people ingame which weirdly enough the players took personally. I did not clarify that I didn't mean the players and just left.

In hindsight I would have probably preferred never actually talking about my reasons and just stay at home. It would have saved my several messages of whining.

I admit, that was odd.

OldTrees1
2016-07-15, 03:26 PM
I admit, that was odd.

I don't find it odd. Even in the general forum area where things are less personal you see people take difference in tastes as critiques of their tastes. People becoming defensive and interrogative when you say "personally, this is not for me" is quite common. Mostly it is only the degree that varies.

Tengu_temp
2016-07-15, 04:28 PM
Are you playing PbP games mostly on these forums? Because I found that, for some reason, the GitP PbP subforum has a real problem with people dropping from games on the drop of a hat. I don't know why exactly that is, but I can see the mindset behind it: it's very easy to drop a game without a feeling of guilt when all the other participants are not just strangers, but internet strangers, there are no repercussions for dropping, and there are dozens of other games recruiting for you to pick from.

Solution: play with people you know.

Vitruviansquid
2016-07-15, 04:47 PM
My experience is also that people don't think about their RPGs when they're not sitting there playing their RPGs.

For example, a player may go on a lengthy vacation to a place without internet access and forget to inform their RPG group because they just didn't remember among all the other friends and family they informed and all the packing they did and so on and so forth.

Yuki Akuma
2016-07-15, 04:54 PM
I personally suffer from pretty severe social phobia and anxiety, so I often end up entering a spiral of checking in less and less often before running away and not even logging in for weeks.

Once I left this site for an entire year!

Durzan
2016-07-15, 06:27 PM
so anyone else with stories like this?

LaserFace
2016-07-15, 06:44 PM
There can be any number of reasons a person stops participating. Sometimes it's not that they hate the other people at the table or the game.

I once became a ghost in one game, because I was going through some hard times and I just didn't even want to think about PbP, let alone make the effort of signing in to throw someone a message about it. I eventually got in touch with the DM well after he killed off my character, although he wanted a pledge of unyielding commitment and possibly my soul before letting me rejoin ... so I declined.

If they just cut ties and you suspect it specifically has to do with your game, you just have to let it go. Something about their experience wasn't what they were hoping for; and though try as we all might to deliver fun games, it's impossible to appeal to everyone. It might be rude and even an inconvenience to the game, but there are no solid ways to avert it from happening altogether, as far as I know.

I think a big factor is that PbP is a pretty impersonal medium for the game that allows people to sever ties without much regard for other people. You're not necessarily playing with friends; you might have no real interaction with the other participants other than what they do in the game.

I personally lost interest in PbP years ago, primarily because I realized the kind of D&D I enjoy most involves a 6pack at a table with dorks who are more interested in the entertainment of a friendly gathering, than specifically D&D. If I had any advice about avoiding this in the future, it would be to make strong bonds with your players.

Zman
2016-07-15, 08:11 PM
I've been on both ends, DM and Player.

I feel guilty about games where I've been the DM and stopped posting. Usually it is a combination of two things, life kicks me in the ass and players make the game work. I usually post an apology that my posting is slow, and it eventually stops and often precedes a long term absence from the forums. Another is when the pace of a game slows, when I have active players that care about the game I put in the work, when players are slow to post and I am waiting around it becomes work. I've run long term many month successful games and ones that didn't make it two months etc.


As a player... I try not to ghost and usually have out lasted many campaigns, but I'm sure I have in some games. Biggest reasons are life kicking me in the ass, no interest in the game, game turns into munchkin optimization, and bad DMing. I usually do my best to post that I'm leaving. I usually say something about it not being a good fit or not having time, but mostly it is the other players, their terrible Homebrew, or just poor DMing. One thing that'll cause me to drop a game like a bad habit is a DM that merges IC and OOC information in the IC thread without spoilers, or one that uses their phone for their posts, or one that cannot spell and has poor writing skills.

goto124
2016-07-15, 08:26 PM
We played Vampire and I expected a laid back gothic world with mystery, monsters and madness. What our group made out of it was a soap opera vampire style.

Don't you know VtR/VtM? The very source material is nothing but soap opera vamps!

I've been in many PbPs where the GM or a player just faded off. I let them fade off, because the actual game was quite boring anyway, and I could see how continuing was a huge struggle and may not even be worth the effort.

2D8HP
2016-07-15, 10:16 PM
Last I checked I said IC "Let's go bandit hunting", I still haven't heard any results.
I think it's just me and the DM left, and I don't think the PC can survive solo.

Clistenes
2016-07-15, 10:56 PM
Maybe they are angry, and what they really want to tell you is *****************, so they choose to just stop playing because they think a game is not worth a fight?

With D&D you have this dichotomy were you know it is just a game and it's all make believe and not really important, but you can get really, really, really pissed if you perceive somebody else as spoiling your fun, ruining you character (or your world) or making fun at your expense.

It makes no sense to keep playing if you aren't having fun, and even less sense to stay and spoil the fun of others our of spite. And while it would be common courtesy to warn you, if they are angry at you they may think that neither telling it to your face and getting in a fight nor making up a lie are worth the effort.

Durzan
2016-07-16, 02:36 AM
Maybe they are angry, and what they really want to tell you is *****************, so they choose to just stop playing because they think a game is not worth a fight?

With D&D you have this dichotomy were you know it is just a game and it's all make believe and not really important, but you can get really, really, really pissed if you perceive somebody else as spoiling your fun, ruining you character (or your world) or making fun at your expense.

It makes no sense to keep playing if you aren't having fun, and even less sense to stay and spoil the fun of others our of spite. And while it would be common courtesy to warn you, if they are angry at you they may think that neither telling it to your face and getting in a fight nor making up a lie are worth the effort.

Unfortunately I was on the receiving end of an angry player who chose to walk out in a very vocal manner... and the ironic thing is, it's just as bad knowing exactly why they left, as it is to be left hanging...

I made a series of mistakes today... stupid mistakes, that I feel awful about. And because of them, one of my players left with his last remark being a public callout of me in the OOC thread... a call out based on hastily made conclusions, but one I never the less deserved. and as a result of that there's a decent chance the entire game will fall apart. Because... of... me.

I tried to apologize, but with this being the Internet, and with him being angry at me, I highly doubt that he would read the PMs.

Just my luck.

Well. that's my side of the story. I'm not sure if he will present the other side or not.

Cespenar
2016-07-16, 03:07 AM
I had a long running signature in which I was (sarcastically) taking score of the dead games I had here versus the completed ones. Around a ratio 65 to 1, I think, I gave up and removed the signature. It had stopped being funny for a long time.

All in all, I believe the reasons are a mixture of apathy towards strangers, anxiety issues, and lack of communication skills.

The best "counter" method I have seen is to keep patient and recruit more people. You really can't do anything more from your side, so it's better to learn to roll with the punches.

Gastronomie
2016-07-16, 05:47 AM
Many DMs fail to get enough information in their posts for the players to understand the current situation, as well as "what they're supposed to do". And it's not their failt, because such thing is actually impossible to do in the first place. People always have questions, and the DM can't answer all of them beforehand. It's possible in Roll20 games and Skype games and IRL games for the players to ask all sorts of questions and have the DM immediately answer, but in PbP that process takes days on its own. It's just really slow.

It also often drags, gets boring, and what you can do in PbP is very limited.

I eventually realized it's a really bad system, at least for my personal taste, and quit. PersonMan's observation sums up everything.

DigoDragon
2016-07-16, 08:22 AM
Several stages where things can be righted, but all require effort and it's easier to just...let it go.

The sad thing it isn't even much effort. Games that I run I try to keep an open channel that if a player can't think of something to post, just let me know. If three days pass and no one posted anything, I'll come right out in the OOC and offer ideas to help get the game moving. And if a player just isn't able to stay on board, all I ask is to be notified. I don't hold it against anyone if they need to part ways. All I ask for is communication.

Stan
2016-07-16, 01:58 PM
I think part of the problem is that many of the people who try pbp are those who lack the time and organization for a live game. Then they find they lack the time/energy for a pbp as well. I think it's especially true for people new to pbp who expect it to be very similar to live play.

Kish
2016-07-16, 02:07 PM
I have no clue why and not much sympathy for most people who disappear due to an overabundance of sympathy for people who don't and see games they were excited about just stop through absolutely no fault of theirs. But it's the way it is: people just stop posting here. As a GM, I plan from the start for a constant level of player attrition; as a player, I don't bother to join games anymore unless I have some reason to be confident the GM won't suddenly disappear.

thirdkingdom
2016-07-16, 02:43 PM
I play most of my pbp games over at rpg.net, and a few years ago there was a community initiative to institute a Blacklist in the pbp forum, run by one of the mods (although it is not an official forum warning tool). It's purpose is to warn people who drop out of games without giving notice *and* who continue to be active on the forum. It serves as a good place for prospective DMs or players to look when joining a game with people they are unfamiliar with.

There was some initial negative feedback about it, but overall I think it has become a positive force in the pbp community there. I also think that it has forced people to be more courteous when they either get swamped in real life or simply lose interest in a game. You can see the Blacklist here (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?709461-The-Blacklist), although I think you likely have to be a member to get access to the pbp section of the forums (to reduce spammers posting in games).

Kish
2016-07-16, 04:46 PM
That looks awesome.

Durzan
2016-07-16, 05:33 PM
I must agree. A similar policy might do wonders here as well...

Zman
2016-07-16, 06:06 PM
I must agree. A similar policy might do wonders here as well...

Unfortunately such a "Blacklist" is inherently against the forum rules here, so don't count on it. It would take something special for that to fly here.

thirdkingdom
2016-07-16, 08:41 PM
It is essentially self-policing. The mod who maintains it volunteered to take it on as extra duty; infractions in the pbp forum are largely meaningless to the forum as a whole (like, someone can't be banned from rpg.net by skiving off a bunch of games).

It was started end of November, 2013, and in that time there have been roughly fifty warnings, including a couple of time lapse bans for serial abandonment and one sternly worded warning for a dude caught cheating on dice rolls. We've got a pretty active pbp forum; maybe not as many games as here.

Mr Blobby
2016-07-17, 02:29 AM
When I moved into DM'ing after years simply as a player, I thought about the reason[s] this may happen, and tried to put in things to stop this.

1/ DM 'laziness'.
Symptoms: DM keeps on vanishing, players feel ignored [particularly when DM is present on site but not doing your stuff], DM not doing the work.
Solution: Announce when you've a bit tied up or overloaded. Try to have FAQ sheets etc to answer basic questions. If currently suffering from mental block / logjam of stuff, to at least tell players ['Aware of current thing you've asked. Will get to you as soon as' etc]. If using a dedicated forum, DM must *not* be hidden. Players must feel that DM is putting in effort, even if they don't get back to you [player] straight away.

2/ Not the type of game the player expected.
Symptoms: Enthusiasm rapidly wanes. Questions show they expect it to be quite different from reality.
Solution: DM to make it clear from the start what is needed [posting rules etc] and the type of game [like in public FAQ's]. DM to make the first question to new player is 'Welcome to X. Now, what kind of game would *you* like to play?' DM to be honest when they simply can't fit an idea in their game.

3/ Player finds it confusing and intimidating to start play.
Symptoms: Often seen in sandbox games; the player has made a character but doesn't enter play. Or does enter, but vanishes in their intro thread.
Solution: DM must have formalised intro threads; where the new player can be introduced to plots, characters etc. If possible, have a quick private 'prologue' thread first, where player can get a feel of how to play and build confidence. [This also helps the DM work out the player too].

4/ Player gets bored at start.
Symptoms: Similar to 2/
Solution: Unless DM trusts another player to be a frequent, interesting poster, all intro threads must be done by DM. Nothing saps the will to play than having an intro thread last several months due to the other player posting every 4 days...

5/ Player gets bored later.
Symptoms: Often seen in sandbox games, player is interacting with other players, but all they get is fluff threads. Their interest wanes and then dies.
Solution: DM to introduce plots to player as soon as possible [ideally, in the intro or leading off of it]. If DM knows what kind of game they'd like, said plots can be tailored.

6/ Player has to leave for a little bit, but does not feel how they can return.
Symptoms: Obvious.
Solution: DM to put into place publicly a method of character retirement, hiatus and return. Even the best players run into this situation every now and then.

7/ Player feels it's 'not going their way'.
Symptoms: Player is frustrated by IC failures.
Solution: DM to point players into more attainable goals and/or assisting in them making 'plans of action' for the PC's goals.

8/ Player feels DM is biased / playing favourites.
Symptoms: Very hard for a DM to notice this.
Solution: DM *must* give the appearance of being impartial at all times; they must not reveal publicly that they're friends with some of the players etc. This means if there is a player vs player disagreement, they can feel that the DM will be fair. On the same token, DM must make it clear to their friends that in the interests of the whole game, they have to be neutral party. And never, *never* must a DM play their own PC there as an alt. Players will work it out soon enough and will feel that it's unfair [rightly or wrongly].

9/ Player does not like DM.
Symptoms: Again, hard to notice this.
Solution: DM must not post when they are annoyed, hurt or cranky. Must learn how to differentiate between constructive criticism and simple bitching. DM must *never* start ignoring particular players because they feel they are 'difficult'. When a player complains about your [DM] actions, you must work on the principle 'I am wrong until proven otherwise'. In this respect, having an assistant DM the player concerned can sometimes be good.

10/ Player does not like other player[s].
Symptoms: Not much, except the posts get increasingly terse etc.
Solution: Very hard to deal with this one. After seeing several pbp forums, I think the best bet is to simply keep the OOC posting topics to the barest minimum.

2D8HP
2016-07-28, 03:27 AM
With the birth of my son (June 1st), I may no longer schedule any time for "tabletop", so I have applied to play in quite a few PbP games.

"Back story" seems to just now be a standard audition/interview for a game.
As a player I don't like it, but considering how much more work being the GM is, it's become understandable that GM's want a writing sample.

Thankfully a few DM's have been kind enough to let me play, which has great fun.
I can definitely tell that the other players are better fiction writers than I am, but what is puzzling is how often the other players will write long impressive introductions of their PC's (typically to illustrate how badass/quirky/tormented/intense the PC is), then a few more posts, and then silence. No more posts.

I just don't get it.

Maybe my bad role-playing is driving the others away?

Or maybe for some writing and having others read the "back-story" is the main point of the game, and they aren't very interested in the GM's scenerio?

GM"s, if you don't think my out-of-date role-playing skills (I started in the 1970's and pretty much stopped in the early 1990's as the games then played were not to my taste, only again briefly playing table top DnD this year) are driving off the other players, please know that out of the four PbP's I've been accepted to play, in two of them I am the last player who has posted, and still communicated with the GM long after the other players stopped.
Maybe your games would last longer if you choose players who actually want to game instead of budding authors, because in my (admittedly limited) experience the best writers don't stick around.

PersonMan
2016-07-28, 03:42 AM
Maybe your games would last longer if you choose players who actually want to game instead of budding authors, because in my (admittedly limited) experience the best writers don't stick around.

To be fair, how do you tell the difference between the guy who can't be bothered to write character fluff, won't be fun to play with* and won't put more than the bare minimum of investment into the game and someone who's bad at writing character backstory / doesn't like it / doesn't see the point, but is a great roleplayer and super-reliable?

2D8HP
2016-07-28, 03:57 AM
To be fair, how do you tell the difference between the guy who can't be bothered to write character fluff, won't be fun to play with* and won't put more than the bare minimum of investment into the game and someone who's bad at writing character backstory / doesn't like it / doesn't see the point, but is a great roleplayer and super-reliable?I only claim to be super-reliable, I hope I'm at least a fair role-player, but I doubt that I'm a great one. Also within an hour of writing my post I saw this post at another thread, which blows my "the best writers don't stick around" theory out of the water:
Besides, not all PbP involves successive posts of flowery purple prose; you're welcome to take a glace through, say, the most recent page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475390-A-Faerie-Affair-IC-II-A-Pixie-in-a-Bottle/page18) of one of my games as a sample of how fluid dialogue and action can be in PbP. I checked out the link, and they're more than 86 pages in the IC threads alone for that game, and pretty much sll of them are better writers than me.
This tells me that it's my bad role-playing/writing that drives the other players away.
:frown: