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AnimeTheCat
2016-07-15, 07:06 PM
Hello again Playground. Thanks for all the great feedback with my healer question, now I've got another opinion based question/idea that applies to all casters. What do you guys think about having metamagic function like something that uses more power from you in a different way.

The way I see metamagic now is that it requires a higher degree of training and ability to use, thus requiring a higher level spell slot. That's just how I see, possibly (Probably) not how the flavor intends it.

What if there was another way to illicit a metamagic effect. Another way being by using up extra energy from other spells. If you think about the reason for limiting casters to spells per day one option you can come up with for the limit is that casting spells is draining on the body and they only have the energy reserves to cast x number of spells per day. flavor wise, I think you should be able to use up more spell energy to cast a spell at the same level but more powerful.

The way I'm thinking about allowing this is by allowing a prepared spell caster to prepare a spell with a metamagic effect, such as extend spell (+1 spell level), in the spell slot that the spell belongs in, such as detect undead (1st level, concentration up to 1 min/level), by using up lower level spell slots to fuel it. Effectively you can use two first level spell slots to cast an extended detect undead in a first level spell slot (1 slot for the spell, 1 slot for adding the necessary power). Spontaneous casters can do the same thing on the fly, but it does increase the spell's casting time to 1 full action or 1 round (If the spell already has a 1 full action casting time).

My general rule that I'm toying with is to allow metamagic spells to be cast at their normal level if you pay for the spell increase with spell slots. 1st level spell slots are worth 1 spell level, 2nd level spell slots are worth two spell levels, etc. The limits on the rule are that you can't apply a metamagic effect to a spell if the spell level would normally be increased above 9th level (I haven't played epic characters so this rule isn't for epic casters.)

A different example:
a 5th level wizard with 18 int can sacrifice the class granted 3rd level spell slot as well as the bonus 3rd level spell slot to prepare a persistant Fox's Cunning (2nd level spell). The Spell level increase for the persistent spell is +6 which means he has to sacrifice 6 levels worth of spell slots.

Am I being clear enough? I feel like my description is a little murky, so if it's confusing please let me know what you would like me to elaborate on. If this is already a feat somewhere (other than dragon magazine, I don't have access to any of that), could you let me know? Otherwise, what do you all think? Good idea, bad idea? game breaking? useless? just general opinions is all I'm looking for.

BowStreetRunner
2016-07-15, 07:45 PM
Why not just switch to using the Psionic rules for magic?

ExLibrisMortis
2016-07-15, 09:24 PM
What if there was another way to illicit a metamagic effect.
Black market metamagic. You mean elicit.

It makes enough sense, but it's easy for high-level wizards to throw a bunch of seconds and thirds away for a few persisted ninths - it's no harder to persist ninths than cantrips, with your houserule. Of course, Incantatrices can already do that, but this would put that level of power into every casting class. Consider carefully.

A suggestion that was put forth a while ago was this: to prepare or cast a +[number] metamagic spell, you have to prepare or spend [number] spell slots of that level. For example, casting a persistent shapechange would require six ninth-level spell slots.

Sun Elemental
2016-07-16, 01:19 AM
It's an interesting idea, and it feels balanced as long a party is forced to go through the normal number of encounters.

Also consider, 3.5 Expanded Psionic HB had 2 options, both rather limited. One was a feat, Overchannel, it merely allowed you to cast a higher level. At level 8 you could boost yourself to caster level 10, getting the equivalent of a +1 metamagic 'slot', and take 3d8 damage. However the caster still had to pay the 2 extra power points.

The other was the Wilder's Wild Surge ability, which could give +2 CL at level 3, +4 CL at level 11 and +6 CL at level 19. The power points were also free, so that would be the equivalent of getting +1, +2 and +3 absolutely free metamagic. The drawback was that you had a 5% chance per caster level of being Dazed for 2 turns and losing power points equal to your level.

Cerefel
2016-07-16, 01:27 AM
As has been mentioned, it's a pretty significant buff to essentially every caster, so you should definitely think carefully on whether to allow it. Also something to consider: how strong effects like pearls of power become in allowing you to regain spell slots, which are now worth more.

Chronikoce
2016-07-16, 04:19 AM
If you're going to allow spells to pay for metamagic then I think they need to cost way more.

Something like
*Putting metamagic on 5th level spell
*other 5th level spells can pay off 1 metamagic cost
4th levels spells can pay off 1/2 of a cost
3rd level spells 1/3 cost
2nd level spells 1/4 cost

Basically I think your version is way to powerful and needs to be toned down

daremetoidareyo
2016-07-16, 09:31 AM
If you're going to allow spells to pay for metamagic then I think they need to cost way more.

Something like
*Putting metamagic on 5th level spell
*other 5th level spells can pay off 1 metamagic cost
4th levels spells can pay off 1/2 of a cost
3rd level spells 1/3 cost
2nd level spells 1/4 cost

So if you wanted to cast a 5th level spell

Basically I think your version is way to powerful and needs to be toned down

This idea is good for balance.

prufock
2016-07-16, 07:49 PM
Well it would destroy most of the utility of Versatile Spellcaster. That lets spontaneous casters use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell one level higher. So an Extended Heroism (a 4th-level spell equivalent) can be cast with two 3rd-level spells. Your variation would allow it to be cast with two 2nd-level spells - quite a savings in itself - or a 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or four 1st-level spells.

Metamagic becomes much cheaper, without the usual feat or class ability tax. Casters therefore become even more powerful.