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Madokar
2016-07-15, 10:14 PM
So my Pathfinder group is in an interesting position. Or maybe it would better to say, it is possible for the group to arrive at an interesting position. Spoiler ahead if you just want to get straight to my question, but I want to provide an example of the situation as it's playing out for me.

We're in the middle of a homebrew campaign that's been going on for about a year. The GM stuck us on the continent of Arcadia on the west side of Golarion. The one continent that has had no material written about it. No cultures, faiths and politics. Nothing. And so far, he's done well. No complaints. In fact, something he's done has prompted an interesting situation that I'd like to talk about and get some opinions on.

The party was on a quest to escort some religious artifacts to a temple on the southern tip of Arcadia. Due to the paladin (i.e. me) underestimating a bunch of urchins and their sticky fingers, the religious artifacts were pick-pocketed and sold on the black market of a city-state called Halftown (there is a halfling name for the city, but I have no clue how to spell it). Thing is, said artifacts turned out to 24 "Memories" that were actually a set of demiplanes contained within marbles that record how to combat and seal the Material Plane against incursion from Hell. The icing on the cake is that outside of their satchel, they serve as beacons to Devils to try and reclaim the Memories to undo the seal that prevents them from flooding through.

The GM was actually thankful for this, as before, he had no idea where the campaign was going to go. Now we have to reclaim all 24 Memories from random areas in the city (and sometime other PLANES). Now, the party has to be quick and discreet about this, since this can cause a panic. So the party has been trying to work with the Church of Abadar, the Lawful Neutral God of Law and Wealth, since that church is the largest of the various faiths in the city with the largest contingent of paladins.

Thing is, it wasn't long before we realized that these paladins, and the general attitude of the Abadarans in the city, was pretty Lawful Stupid. Case in point, we tracked some dragon cultists in possession of one of the Memories. Long story short, they were kidnapping poor people off the street and turning them into bombs. And in the process, their headquarters in the Noble Quarter of the city caught on fire.

Naturally, it didn't take long for the Abadarans to come see what all the ruckus was about. And it's here that the problems first started becoming obvious. First off, they executed one of the dragon cultists we managed to take alive while said cultist was unconscious, bound and helpless. Thankfully, my paladin had enough ranks in Heal to make a successful check to stabilize the cultist before he died. Then, they refused to enter the burning building without a permit. When the party entered the building once we realized that the cultists had an escape tunnel in the basement, the Abadarans went after US for B&E.

But all of that wound up being a minor HEADACHE compared to what happened later. We tracked down the dragon cult to a crypt and were able to round up a lot of them. When the Abadarans showed up to take the cultists into custody, we noticed something big. Some of the cultists were from the nobility of the city. Which in hindsight, made a lot of sense since the last base was IN the Noble Quarter. But when the Abadarans thought nobody was looking, we noticed that some of the PALADINS were taking bribes from the arrested nobles so said nobles could walk off scot free.

At this point, my half-orc paladin of Iomedae swore to start his own temple and order of paladins in the city to fight this massive corruption. And even though my temple isn't even finished yet, there are talks of some Abadarans defecting to Iomedae.

Now, here comes the issue. I believe that some of the more... zealous members of the Abadaran faith have been seduced by some Asmodean cultists. While we have no concrete proof of an Asmodean cult operating in the city yet, the fact that the Abadarans are more focused on rule of law, nobility, and the fact that the said nobility has been in possession of a Memory containing knowledge on how to seal and open gates to Hell, my paladin is fearful for the fate of Halftown. Not to mention the Abadarans are willing to execute someone without fair trial. That, and taking bribes are BIG no-nos for the Abadaran faith.

Ultimate Intrigue has also introduced a can of worms with it's Tyrant Archetype for Antipaladins, which allows for LE Antipaladins. So now it's possible for there to be Antipaladins of Asmodeus, and the paladins of Abadar can fall and convert to that class if this all happens as I suspect it will.

So this campaign has the potential to take the LN Abadarans, and divide them between the LG Iomedaen faith and the LE Asmodean faith. In essence, a big examination on when the drive for order hits the point of tyranny, and what it means to be Lawful Good when the Law is abused and twisted from it's purpose.

I know I gave a lot of backstory for the campaign I'm in, but I wanted to share how complex the issue is being presented in my case. Has anybody had issues like this in their campaign, when being Lawful was not as clear and cut as those of the alignment would like you to believe?

Slipperychicken
2016-07-15, 10:51 PM
My guess is that the DM had the paladins kill the cultist so you guys wouldn't try torturing him. They might also have been covering their tracks, since he might have pointed you back to them.

And yeah, paying off Abadar people makes sense. Their big thing is making money, so it's hardly a surprise that at least some of them would be corrupt, especially the higher-ups. It even says right on the wiki that lawful evil is fair game for his worshipers.

In the metagame, you're trusting NPCs to do things that help you. That's not a good assumption; treat all NPCs as backstabbers until proven.. well okay just treat them as if they could backstab you at any moment. You should also be fully prepared for any major religious group to be utterly corrupt, as if it was a caricature of the catholic church.

Madokar
2016-07-15, 11:03 PM
The funny thing is that the cultist wound up torturing himself. We tried interrogating him, he bit his tongue off. We used magic to heal him, he bit his tongue off. Then we rolled diplomacy to make him see how pointless that was, and now he's in the dungeon of the temple of Sarenrae. Which another party member founded, but he did so before we discovered the (potential) corruption of the Abadarans.

While some of Abadar's faithful can be LE, it's not the overall goal of the church to be such. However, the fact that it's the paladins doing these things that's the real concern, since they're supposed to be LG. If the paladins are committing such questionable behaviour, it's a major source of concern since they consist of the largest fighting force in the city. We have since switched to working only with the town guard, but the office of their captain is IN the Abadaran temple.

Well, the party has all three varieties of Good alignments. Not an Evil or Neutral member in the bunch. So we're a bit more trusting. We want to help these people, but we don't want to disregard their rights to do it. So far, the Guard Captain and the temple of Desna are our major allies in the city, but that's not saying much considering all the problems the city is facing now.

Fiery Diamond
2016-07-16, 12:17 AM
The funny thing is that the cultist wound up torturing himself. We tried interrogating him, he bit his tongue off. We used magic to heal him, he bit his tongue off. Then we rolled diplomacy to make him see how pointless that was, and now he's in the dungeon of the temple of Sarenrae. Which another party member founded, but he did so before we discovered the (potential) corruption of the Abadarans.

While some of Abadar's faithful can be LE, it's not the overall goal of the church to be such. However, the fact that it's the paladins doing these things that's the real concern, since they're supposed to be LG. If the paladins are committing such questionable behaviour, it's a major source of concern since they consist of the largest fighting force in the city. We have since switched to working only with the town guard, but the office of their captain is IN the Abadaran temple.

Well, the party has all three varieties of Good alignments. Not an Evil or Neutral member in the bunch. So we're a bit more trusting. We want to help these people, but we don't want to disregard their rights to do it. So far, the Guard Captain and the temple of Desna are our major allies in the city, but that's not saying much considering all the problems the city is facing now.

So some Paladins have fallen and are maintaining the charade that they haven't. Interesting.

trikkydik
2016-07-16, 12:35 AM
My guess is that the DM had the paladins kill the cultist so you guys wouldn't try torturing him. They might also have been covering their tracks, since he might have pointed you back to them.

And yeah, paying off Abadar people makes sense. Their big thing is making money, so it's hardly a surprise that at least some of them would be corrupt, especially the higher-ups. It even says right on the wiki that lawful evil is fair game for his worshipers.

In the metagame, you're trusting NPCs to do things that help you. That's not a good assumption; treat all NPCs as backstabbers until proven.. well okay just treat them as if they could backstab you at any moment. You should also be fully prepared for any major religious group to be utterly corrupt, as if it was a caricature of the catholic church.

I really agree with that.

If youre looking to use religious/diplomatic means to solve your situation:

The less educated and impoverished are more susceptible to the temptations of religion.

If i was to start a cult, or recruit more members to my religious cause, i would start with the uneducated, impoverished, and expendable members of society. (Also keeping them fed and happy improves loyalty.)

Kol Korran
2016-07-16, 01:48 AM
You seem to be mostly worried about the paladins not acting as paladins, and how that may reflect on the lawful alignment, or the lawful good alignment, if I understand this right?

There may be a few explanations though:
1. As has been mentioned, the fact that they are called "paladins" doesn't mean that they ARE in fact paladins. Quite a few of their abilities can be faked by other ways- Smite evil may be just good fighting prowess or even using feats such as power attack, and such... Lay hands may be a result of healing spells or powers. There are also a lot of ways to register as "good" for "detect evil" spells. In most societies, paladins gain a lot of respect, and as such that can certainly be advantageous.

2. They may be gray paladins (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/gray-paladin-paladin-archetype), which enables a "divergence" from the fully strict paladin code. This can enable them to be "mostly paladins" but also be able to make small breaks from the code.

3. The Abadarian faith promotes maintaining civilization and society, order and smooth running, more than "good- evil" moral codes. As such, the church itself may deem the maintaining of the noble order (And preventing the chaos that might ensue if the general population learns of this), over their accusations, if this can be dealt with... discreetly. Also, bribery may well be one of the major underlying factors in Halftown, which may then seem as acceptable to the Abdarian faith.

For comparisons, if you know of Terry Pratchet's ruler of Ankh- Morpork, the patrician Vetinari, than you know he isn't good, not exactly bad, and his methods of ruling the city might be questionable by some, but... he makes the city function and work.

4. Or... you may be right all along, and either part of the church (Big or small), or even the entire church is but a cover for an Asmodeus clergy, which are very well known to be able to infiltrate and pose as other faiths, slowly corrupting the entire population...

A small other note, if I may, about paladins, adhering to Law, and being Lawful Good (Assuming alignments are in play, and not discarded): Palainds are LG. This doesn't mean "They follow all that is good AND follow all that is lawful. It means they follow what is BOTH good and lawful. They don't just follow ANY law, but laws that ARE good. Laws that aren't, especially laws who reek of evil, need not be followed by the paladin, and in fact- fervently opposed, as you seem to start doing.

And if I may offer a bit more advice- Just building an opposing temple isn't enough- The corrupted Abadarians/ Asmodeus clergy have deep roots in Halftown (Or so is my impression), and they have already corrupted some of the place, and have established sources of influence and power... You are not just offering a "competing offer", you are in a war! A war over the nature, morality and souls of Halftown. Appeal to the masses, make speeches, accuse wrong doers, nd pursue justice, along with fighting any corruption.

You got your work ahed of you, but I for one... envy you! This seems like such a great undertaking, and such a great and powerful story to tell. I hope the campaign (Tracking down those 24 memories) will enable pursing this fully. I'd LOVE to be able to play such a scenario!

Good luck to you!

Madokar
2016-07-16, 10:52 AM
You seem to be mostly worried about the paladins not acting as paladins, and how that may reflect on the lawful alignment, or the lawful good alignment, if I understand this right?

There may be a few explanations though:
1. As has been mentioned, the fact that they are called "paladins" doesn't mean that they ARE in fact paladins. Quite a few of their abilities can be faked by other ways- Smite evil may be just good fighting prowess or even using feats such as power attack, and such... Lay hands may be a result of healing spells or powers. There are also a lot of ways to register as "good" for "detect evil" spells. In most societies, paladins gain a lot of respect, and as such that can certainly be advantageous.

2. They may be gray-paladins, which enables a "divergence" from the fully strict paladin code. This can enable them to be "mostly paladins" but also be able to make small breaks from the code.

3. The Abadarian faith promotes maintaining civilization and society, order and smooth running, more than "good- evil" moral codes. As such, the church itself may deem the maintaining of the noble order (And preventing the chaos that might ensue if the general population learns of this), over their accusations, if this can be dealt with... discreetly. Also, bribery may well be one of the major underlying factors in Halftown, which may then seem as acceptable to the Abdarian faith.

For comparisons, if you know of Terry Pratchet's ruler of Ankh- Morpork, the patrician Vetinari, than you know he isn't good, not exactly bad, and his methods of ruling the city might be questionable by some, but... he makes the city function and work.

4. Or... you may be right all along, and either part of the church (Big or small), or even the entire church is but a cover for an Asmodeus clergy, which are very well known to be able to infiltrate and pose as other faiths, slowly corrupting the entire population...

A small other note, if I may, about paladins, adhering to Law, and being Lawful Good (Assuming alignments are in play, and not discarded): Palainds are LG. This doesn't mean "They follow all that is good AND follow all that is lawful. It means they follow what is BOTH good and lawful. They don't just follow ANY law, but laws that ARE good. Laws that aren't, especially laws who reek of evil, need not be followed by the paladin, and in fact- fervently opposed, as you seem to start doing.

And if I may offer a bit more advice- Just building an opposing temple isn't enough- The corrupted Abadarians/ Asmodeus clergy have deep roots in Halftown (Or so is my impression), and they have already corrupted some of the place, and have established sources of influence and power... You are not just offering a "competing offer", you are in a war! A war over the nature, morality and souls of Halftown. Appeal to the masses, make speeches, accuse wrong doers, nd pursue justice, along with fighting any corruption.

You got your work ahed of you, but I for one... envy you! This seems like such a great undertaking, and such a great and powerful story to tell. I hope the campaign (Tracking down those 24 memories) will enable pursing this fully. I'd LOVE to be able to play such a scenario!

Good luck to you!

It's just that I've read the Inner Sea Gods book from Paizo. And corruption of the courts is a big no-no for the church. If the people cannot have faith in the justice system, then society breaks down and chaos reigns. Taking bribes is a pretty notable sign of corruption in the justice system. Especially when the nobles have had a hand in taking the poor and turning them into bombs for terrorist attacks in the city. If that's not corruption, then I don't know what is.

There are plans to sway the masses. Charity work and the like. So far, one thing we are planning to do is use both our Sarenite and Iomedaean temples to improve the lives of the poorer districts. We've even established our temples a block apart in the "Poor Quarter". The Sarenite temple has already redeemed a band of pickpockets and absorbed them into the clergy.

Later, the Sarenites are going to build an orphanage. I'm going to build a school. Get kids off the streets, get an education and have a better chance at life than being street criminals. But this is all one phase of the plan. I plan to work with the other good aligned religions in the city and try to form a pan-faith council so that they have more of a voice in the way the city is run.

For example, there are chapters of the LG churches of Torag and Erastil in the city, but they have little power so far. The Toragites seem restricted the market area, whereas the Erastilians keep to the farmlands outside the city and have no say about what happens inside the city walls. Both have paladins, but can't get a lot done because of how secular they have become under the city's current administration and how few in number they are. In times of crisis, paladins should band together to defend their charges.

The big thing, however, is to find a way to address some of the Abadarans and tell them some passages from their holy texts. Try and get them to realize how many of their own commandments they seem to be failing. Either inspire them to defect from the corrupted, or to make them realize they have the power to expel the corrupted from their church. Because Abadar has good teachings. It's just that some of his core lessons have been twisted in this case.

Madokar
2016-07-18, 11:19 PM
For any curious about the progression of my Law Conundrum with the Abadarans, they have arrested my paladin on trumped up charges of committing fraud when constructing my temple. Then they threw him into solitary after coming to the conclusion that he's the "Orange God" the dragon cult worships.

There's a tiny explanation as to why they claim my paladin is said Orange God. But it's because my paladin leveled up twice in the home plane of the Fey, the First World. Now my paladin has orange skin and budding wings on his back due to absorbing fey magic while in the First World.

Can't tell if they're extremely Lawful Stupid or if they're obfuscating that stupidity to hinder my paladin's efforts in the city.