What does "monk" mean to you?

[LTwerewolf]

The second post in the series I started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493915-What-does-quot-ranger-quot-mean-to-you).

A few things before the discussion: I already intend to turn the term "monk" into a class category rather than a single class in itself. This one is rather than trying to come up with one single class, coming up with the classes that would be under said category.

Other concepts I intend to do in the series include

Alchemist, Archer, Armormaster, Assassin, Bard, Champion, Crusader, Paladin ,Shadow Knight/Dark Knight ,Druid ,Enchanter, Knight, Samurai, Necromancer, Rogue, Savage, Sorcerer, Spellsword, Swashbuckler, Thaumaturge, Warlock, Wizard, Investigator

[Red Fel]

Short version?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4f/be/59/4fbe59d1441d4c06d318c8540fde74b6.jpg

As an aside, I would love to see him as an actual class. He'd be like a Ranger, except the exact opposite.

[LTwerewolf]

I can certainly add investigator to the list.

[Geddy2112]

Well, I was going to say

A monk is anyone that has a a doctrine that is (at least in part) based in asceticism, that stresses reaching a sort of perfection or becoming some ideal. It could be a tradition, order, group, or their own personal views, but it is a lifestyle that eschews(at least in some aspect) the worldly for something otherworldly, and to become the latter is ideal over the former. In 3.X terms, a fair amount of classes could be played as a "monk" by this definition. However, just because some archetypes of these classes could be monks, it by no means implies that anyone playing those other classes is a monk.

BUT

Short version?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4f/be/59/4fbe59d1441d4c06d318c8540fde74b6.jpg

As an aside, I would love to see him as an actual class. He'd be like a Ranger, except the exact opposite.
This tops anything I can say, or probably anything else that can be said in the thread.

[DMVerdandi]

I mean it obviously holds some weight as a concept. Generally to me it means someone who is trained in asceticism and martial arts at the same time, and that training leads to mastery of the external and internal forces.

Personally, I think one can play almost all classes in a wuxia flavor, making them all monk-like. It's all about execution. Casting classes all but have direct analogs in wuxia fiction, and can be adapted as such.
As do Psionic classes.

Monk works better as a style or collective sort of identity, rather than a class.
As do concepts like samurai, or ninja. Having multiple classes representing the same concept means you can have multiple expressions of the same theme, which gives it a lot of variance.

Out of the classes that CAN be reflavored as a monk, the best in my opinion are
1. Dragon Magazine Erudite (Spell to power option included.)
With this you can represent a LOT of metaphysical powers that the monk gets, and you can mitigate a large amount of the unfavorable obstacles that come with arcane casting. The 4e monk was probably the best iteration of it ever, and it was psionic, and I think intelligently so. Following that trend, using a psionic class to represent the powers and abilities granted by understanding the self is natural

Also my the erudite is favorite class in general but yeah.


2. Cleric or Druid
Both are user friendly, powerful, and have tons of options for utilizing them, and both do SO much better at throwing around monk flavor than the actual monk.
The cleric with it's spiritual flavored spells aim directly at the core of being a ascetic. Armored ones make excellent Sohei, and taking a cloistered one reminds one of your average unarmed unarmored practitioner.

Druids in my opinion do the most wonderful job of expressing a taoist . Connection to nature, balanced control over the elements, communion with animals and even the ability to shape change. Straight up taoist sage right there.

3. TOB classes
We all know why. With it's maneuvers, it's the martial exponent that we always wanted and never got.
Instead of the more casty style this is more of the physical style. All three have the ability to be very monk-like even with fluff intact. Simply because, again, there is more than one way to monk.



But yeah, the best class to use as a monk just happens to be the best classes to use, rather than being a "monk", Simply because of High Tier flexibility. The more flexible the class, the easier to represent any one concept.

[LTwerewolf]

I'm not looking for d&d classes to play a monk-type character. I'm remaking the classes.

[Red Fel]

Gonna be a bit more honest, when I think monk, I think something like this:

http://data.whicdn.com/images/44926357/large.gif

That is what "monk" means to me, conceptually. Not martial artist. Not unarmed fighter. To me, "monk" means religious ascetic.

You want the guy whose hands blur as he punches? The one who can balance on a leaf or spin through the air like a helicopter? That's a martial artist. He may or may not be religious, may or may not be associated with some kind of ascetic order or philosophy. He's not a "monk" to me. Is he wuxia? Probably. Badass? Sure. But that doesn't mean "monk" to me.

Now, if you have a character with a religious ascetic bent who happens to be martially focused, I could see that as a monk. Certainly. But he is a martial artist incidentally; his focus remains on his ascetic training and faith, the martial arts simply being an extension of that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A monk is a spiritual ascetic that seeks a deeper connection to his belief system; be it enlightenment, a god, or some other thing. Because of some eastern traditions, there is also an association with bodily perfection.

[HolyDraconus]

Easy Kill.

[DMVerdandi]

I'm not looking for d&d classes to play a monk-type character. I'm remaking the classes.

So you want...assistance in remaking a monk?

Aight, I will bite.
===================================
MONK
Alignment:Any
Hit Die: D8
Skills:Same
BAB: Medium
Weapon and armor proficiency: All simple and martial weapons. All armors

Class features
Power points per day: As Psion, but uses wisdom as key ability score

Powers known
Each Monk starts knowing two powers, and every even level gains two additional powers known. Monks can choose their powers known from any divine spell casting list. Even though they choose their powers from said lists, they are manifested as psionic powers[see manifesting powers rules].


Monks can add to their powers known by spending time memorizing divine spells. This takes one day per 3 spell levels of quiet study with one concentration check each day[15]; An experience point cost of 10*[spell level] per spell memorized; and a spellcraft check at the end of the time memorized [10+level of spell] to successfully add a divine spell to the powers known list. The spell in question must be either written down in a prayerbook or as a divine scroll.

To be taught a spell not in written form, there must be someone capable of teaching the divine spell to the monk present during the whole process, and the spell craft check is then [15+spell level]

Monk Powers must be prepared to be used. After resting a full 8 hours, the monk can change which powers it has prepared with 1 hour of meditation. The monk can prepare up to 3 spells per spell level [example: 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/2/1]
If a slot is left unprepared the monk can prepare it later in the day. Each power being prepared individually takes 1 minute of preparation per power level.
Powers prepared can be used as many times as desired so long as the points necessary to manifest the power are available. When using metapsionic feats, the feats are applied to the power when it is manifested, rather than when it is prepared.


Powers from other psionic lists can be learned through the expanded power feat, or through going through the same process as learning divine spells, but the experience cost and time required is quadrupled. Psionic powers from other classes are also only able to be learned up to 7th level.




AC bonus: same

Fast movement: same

Unarmed Strike: same

Perfect self: Same

BONUS FEAT: Once every 3 levels and one at first level. Can take Psionic Feats, or any feats that
================================================== =====

My reasoning is that most of the Class abilities that the monk has invoke to specific of a type of martial artist, so leaving customization in the hands of the player is better than having one rigid idea.

This is most definitely a tier 1 monk, and I would do so on purpose.
Who is to say monk isn't the strongest, or shouldn't be the strongest class.

[khadgar567]

So you want...assistance in remaking a monk?

Aight, I will bite.
===================================
MONK
Alignment:Any
Hit Die: D8
Skills:Same
BAB: Medium
Weapon and armor proficiency: All simple and martial weapons. All armors

Class features
Power points per day: As Psion, but uses wisdom as key ability score

Powers known
Each Monk starts knowing two powers, and every even level gains two additional powers known. Monks can choose their powers known from any divine spell casting list. Even though they choose their powers from said lists, they are manifested as psionic powers[see manifesting powers rules].


Monks can add to their powers known by spending time memorizing divine spells. This takes one day per 3 spell levels of quiet study with one concentration check each day[15]; An experience point cost of 10*[spell level] per spell memorized; and a spellcraft check at the end of the time memorized [10+level of spell] to successfully add a divine spell to the powers known list. The spell in question must be either written down in a prayerbook or as a divine scroll.

To be taught a spell not in written form, there must be someone capable of teaching the divine spell to the monk present during the whole process, and the spell craft check is then [15+spell level]

Monk Powers must be prepared to be used. After resting a full 8 hours, the monk can change which powers it has prepared with 1 hour of meditation. The monk can prepare up to 3 spells per spell level [example: 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/2/1]
If a slot is left unprepared the monk can prepare it later in the day. Each power being prepared individually takes 1 minute of preparation per power level.
Powers prepared can be used as many times as desired so long as the points necessary to manifest the power are available. When using metapsionic feats, the feats are applied to the power when it is manifested, rather than when it is prepared.


Powers from other psionic lists can be learned through the expanded power feat, or through going through the same process as learning divine spells, but the experience cost and time required is quadrupled. Psionic powers from other classes are also only able to be learned up to 7th level.




AC bonus: same

Fast movement: same

Unarmed Strike: same

Perfect self: Same

BONUS FEAT: Once every 3 levels and one at first level. Can take Psionic Feats, or any feats that
================================================== =====

My reasoning is that most of the Class abilities that the monk has invoke to specific of a type of martial artist, so leaving customization in the hands of the player is better than having one rigid idea.

This is most definitely a tier 1 monk, and I would do so on purpose.
Who is to say monk isn't the strongest, or shouldn't be the strongest class.
hold your wuxia horse mate this is discusion treat not create me a monk wannabe treat
as for monk for me is basicly some one with martial initiation and furry of blows maybe with some hadoken like moves for representing spiritual side not charles xavier and iron fist fusion

[D.M.Hentchel]

To me the concept of the monk varies a lot depending on the outlandishness of the setting.

If I play pathfinder (a system and setting I view to take a very "why the f*** not?" approach) I expect my monk to be able to teleport, punch a hundred times in a second, heal, fly, jump hundreds of feet, move insanely fast, and shoot fire out of their fists.

If I play 3.5's Dragonlance (which is low magic and generally NPCs are very mundane) I want to be tough as nails, athletic, and defend myself without weapons or armor.

I really do feel like the monk is two distinctly different concepts that got merged into one (to the detriment of both) in 3.X. But there are some traits both should have:
-Awareness (monks should always be present and 'on guard')
-Strong Willed (monks should always be clear of mind and difficult to scare or dominate)
-Agile and Athletic (if there is a terrain obstacle, the monk shouldn't be the one to slow everyone down)
-Non-reliant on weapons and armor (monks should still be able to fight without having equipment with them)

On the subject of religion, I don't feel it to be nesssessary for monk class, certianly the class should be compatable with appropriate religion fluff. But the religious stuff should just be fluff.

[Melcar]

When I first started playing D&D I saw monk as a shaolin kung fu monk, but I have come to see it just as any martial class that focuses on hand to hand combat without the use of weapons (not includingthe monk weapons). So now I use it as differet types of brawlers as well as the more disciplined putilists... I actully never really use it as the shaolin monk type...

When I DM, I remove the alighment restriction so to be able to multiclass monk and barbarian for a raging wrestlers type for fx an orc grapler type or somthing... I personally dont like alignment restrictions so I tend to remove them entirely when I DM.

[BWR]

I have to agree with several others that 'monk' to my mind primarily means 'member of a religious order, often somewhat distanced from the rest of society'. Asceticism and fighting abilities are optional, as there were a number of quite well-off monastic orders around the world and not all monks trained in combat. Granted, in D&D terms it has come to mean 'mystic fighter, often unarmed', and in RPG situations that's what I tend to think of. I'm not quite sure what a good replacement term would be for that general concept.
'Mystic', as they were called in BECMI, was basically a D&D monk and that seems as good a term as any for those who don't want to use 'monk'. Honestly, all the major classes have either overly generic names or ridiculously specific used to cover more general fields, and 'monk' is no different.

As for what I want out of it, I loved the BECMI Mystic and the general idea was at least attempted in d20, with various degrees of success. A combat-focused character with various abilities well beyond what mortals are capable of, entirely from discipline and internal power. Qualitatively different flavor-wise (and importantly, mechanically different) from other classes. What PF started to do with the ki pool is a great idea and what I wish they had focused on, making it a main component of the class rather than a support feature (which is what my homebrew fix has been primarily about, and it has worked quite nicely for my game). Part wuxia hero, part cheap kung fu flick, all awesome.

[Gildedragon]

An ascetic, faith-oriented*, mystic (though not a spellcaster)
A monk needs to be pretty gear independent, with armor, in particular, being unneeded
A monk ought be serene and focus on non-lethal takedowns (in fact in monks I play I tend to go for vow of peace: for the weapon-shatter effect, and the infectious tranquility)
There ought'n't be an alignment restriction

*like a cleric, faith needn't be in a deity but ideal... In fact I think ideals work better for monks

[Tiri]

Well, when I hear 'monk' I generally think of someone who lives in some monastery away from any other large civilised area. Devoted to some sort of religion or ideal and usually with some degree of abstention from luxury. Of course, as a class it would probably have to have some abilities related to this. If I wanted to represent it with the currently available D&D classes I think I would pick Cloistered Cleric.

I know D&D in particular has them as martial artists of some sort, but even in those eastern monasteries where such martial arts were practiced I find it hard to imagine EVERYONE there was a martial artist. Of course, a monk can be a martial artist, but I always saw the two things as separate.

[Peat]

A guy with a funny haircut who lives with a bunch of other guys, living (theoretically) hard lives in the name of God.

Also, the most obvious logical disconnect formed by D&D's kitchen sink attitude to fantasy. It always feels slightly weird for me having a bunch of wuxia guys wandering into the otherwise overwhelmingly European pastiche.

[Seppo87]

To me, a monk is the 3.5 monk, without abundant step and quivering palm, as an NPC class that serves as a basis for more competent PC classes with different focuses

[LTwerewolf]

So right now the classes I have for the monk are

Friar/Nun
Simple weapons
low divine casting ability, spell list consisting of healing spells and debuff spells
light or no armor


Shifu (think monk/wu jen hybrid)
simple weapons
mid casting ability, spell list consisting of a mix of several things dealing with the elements
no armor

Wushu master (think the regular martial artist from fantasy)
monk weapons or unarmed
no casting
high mobility and dodginess
no armor

Yin (think aikido or jujitsu)
monk weapons or unarmed
no casting
low mobility
no armor
very high hp, ability to riposte both weapons and spells


The names of the classes need a little work, but that's the concepts I've got so far.

[Gildedragon]

Friar/Nun and Shifu are very similar (with the friar's only benefit being armor (which isn't that monk-y) if one were to give some armors (ultra light, low ac, high max Dex armors) the "monk" quality to allow monks to access armor enhancements that would be enough to roll these "classes" together
And the Wushu and Yin are also very similar; more like an acfs

So far you have a demicaster and a mundane martial expert
I figure there's bound to be a middle ground.
A moderately casting martial expert with a couple style options

[Red Fel]

Friar/Nun
Simple weapons
low divine casting ability, spell list consisting of healing spells and debuff spells
light or no armor

Comparing this to a standard Cleric, it utterly fails to stand up. Admittedly, bog-standard Cleric is powerful, but this is just incredibly weak. Further, there is already a concept of a religious order cooped up in a hideaway monastery - it's the Cloistered Cleric variant class.

So if you're making something new, you have to compete with that. I'd agree you should keep the divine casting and simple weapons, light or no armor. In addition, however, I'd suggest passive benefits that reflect their role. Bonuses to trained skills, such as knowledge, crafting, and various professions, to reflect their years of study and self-sufficiency. Social benefits, such as a circumstance bonus to social roles when dealing with peasants, or the ability to "pull rank" to a limited degree with nobles, reflecting society's regard for withdrawn religious scholars. Perhaps something akin to Bardic Knowledge to reflect the myriad of texts they have likely had to study and transcribe.


Shifu (think monk/wu jen hybrid)
simple weapons
mid casting ability, spell list consisting of a mix of several things dealing with the elements
no armor

Again, kind of exists, but I like where it's going. It will probably end up feeling like a Bender (a la Avatar) when it's through. If you really wanted to make it interesting, you could break it out into five classes - one centered around each element, Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water - with PrC options centered around branching out into multiple elements or exploring the Void that unites and defies them all. Each subclass would have options reflecting it - Metal, for example, could have superior BAB and Fort save, and many martial weapon options, while Water would have a superior Reflex and Will save, and bonuses to things like Escape Artist.


Wushu master (think the regular martial artist from fantasy)
monk weapons or unarmed
no casting
high mobility and dodginess
no armor

It's an interesting start. The challenge is distinguishing it from the Monk or similar non-casting melees. Fortunately, there are plenty of "How to fix the Monk" threads, so that could really inform this idea.


Yin (think aikido or jujitsu)
monk weapons or unarmed
no casting
low mobility
no armor
very high hp, ability to riposte both weapons and spells

Interesting that you're going with a low-mobility option. Something a bit more tanky could be interesting, and could explore some of the "passively mystical" side of the Monk - that is, the idea that spiritual balance leads to physical perfection. Consider bringing in techniques like Iron Shirt, Cotton Belly, or Golden Bell, which reflect the Monk's spiritual capacity to enhance himself and his strikes, pierce enemy defenses, and withstand his foes. These can be in the form of class features or "Select one of the following" options.

[LTwerewolf]

The friar's spell list and the shifu's spell list is meant to be entirely different, along with decently different class features. The friar is intended to be able to fight as a mediocre combatant without use of their spells at all, where the shifu is intended to augment their fighting ability with the spells they cast.


The wushu and the yin are intended to have entirely different class features, different saves, different hit points, different everything really. The only thing they share in common is no armor and the weapons.

As far as comparing it to the bog standard cleric, that's not a fair comparison, because the bog standard cleric is being scrapped and rebuilt. Spells like divine power that obviate entire classes are being scrapped entirely. Next time I'll include the description of what I'm doing in each post, rather than expect people to click the link to read the description of what I'm doing. Every class is being scrapped and rebuilt.

[Melcar]

So right now the classes I have for the monk are

Friar/Nun
Simple weapons
low divine casting ability, spell list consisting of healing spells and debuff spells
light or no armor


Shifu (think monk/wu jen hybrid)
simple weapons
mid casting ability, spell list consisting of a mix of several things dealing with the elements
no armor

Wushu master (think the regular martial artist from fantasy)
monk weapons or unarmed
no casting
high mobility and dodginess
no armor

Yin (think aikido or jujitsu)
monk weapons or unarmed
no casting
low mobility
no armor
very high hp, ability to riposte both weapons and spells


The names of the classes need a little work, but that's the concepts I've got so far.

This in very interesting! :smallsmile:

[digiman619]

Too me, when I think of a monk, I think of someone who, through attuning his mind and body, has attained a level of physical fitness that borders (and sometimes crosses into) the supernatural. But the important part is is that the power comes from within; you aren't tapping he power of the universe like a wizard, or channeling the divine like a cleric, or even having some strange power you were born with, like a sorcerer. A monk taps into the self (which is why it combos so flavorfuly with psionics) and in such a way that anyone with the dedication and perseverance could do.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It means an expert martial artist. He may use weapons as well, particularly some exotic ones that seem less practical to normal people, like a bladed whip or three-section staff or heavy bladed spear, but he's comfortable with no weapons at all, and is a resourceful fighter, adept at using his surroundings and ordinary objects to aid him in a fight. He's also very acrobatic and good at various combat maneuvers that involve manipulating his foe's position or his own. When grappling, he relies on speed and technique rather than brute force to overpower. Likewise, his attacks rely more on striking weak points or pressure points than sheer strength, and when his foe's guard is down, he can deliver an extremely rapid flurry of attacks. While some adhere to "iron body" training, most monks' preferred defense is avoiding being hit at all or deflecting the majority of the force of a blow away from himself.

He meditates and draws on powers that are blatantly beyond the mundane. In a lot of ways, having limited psionic abilities makes a lot of sense for the character. He should have legitimate means of getting by with little or no equipment and magical items, since the wandering aesthetic in simple robes with just a small knapsack is such a staple archetype.

[AslanCross]

1. Asceticism is definitely a must. It is not necessarily a religious asceticism; it could be a philosophical one.
2. The pursuit of this asceticism involves and is directly related to the pursuit of physical perfection. At least, this is why the real-world inspiration behind the monk class invented martial arts in the first place. It was a part of their philosophy and life, not merely an incidental skill set they happened to pick up as a matter of circumstance.
3. Unarmed is not necessary, and should not be the priority.

[Psyren]

*Points at Irori*

Pretty much that. Particularly the ideal of monking so hard that you ascend.



3. Unarmed is not necessary, and should not be the priority.

It's not - but should they decide to fight unarmed, they should be the best at it.

[Milo v3]

It's not - but should they decide to fight unarmed, they should be the best at it.
This depends on if there is a Fighter or Brawler class in my opinion.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This depends on if there is a Fighter or Brawler class in my opinion.

A monk who wants to fight unarmed should be better at it than a Fighter.

[Milo v3]

A monk who wants to fight unarmed should be better at it than a Fighter.

Fighting is all the fighter has, at least the monk has mobility and supernatural utility options. At the very least, the fighter should be able to fight with unarmed as well as a monk could if the fighter has chosen unarmed for his focus.

[Nightcanon]

Hmm. In a 'standard' W European- type setting monk might be a synonym for cleric, or at least a sub-type of that. The Eastern mystic/ martial artist/ Ki-powers thing doesn't really fit in there.

In D&D terms, monk = MAD with weak class abilities (or, if you design for WOTC, a class with no dead levels, in contrast to the Wizard, who hardly gets anything, poor lamb).

I have to admit here that my experience of martial arts films is limited pretty much to Kung-Fu Panda. That said, for me the flavour is very much of someone whose inner something (Wis, I guess, in game terms) transcends the physical- you get these tiny frail old folks punching through bricks and dancing up walls not because they also have STR, DEX and CON in the mid-20s, but despite having mediocre scores in those stats. If I were rebuilding the Monk class from the ground up, I'd give some thought allowing WIS in place of other ability scores. So at, say, 4th level, a monk could use his 18 WIS in place of STR of 8 in all situations (in effect he gets an 18 STR, but still looks frail as he used to). Then a few levels later, he can effectively replace his CON of 10, or DEX of 12 with WIS. Maybe chose an ability score to 'replace' each time he gets an ability score boost, maybe do it as 'Monk level to all non-WIS scores, up to a maximum of current WIS score'. The Monk thus stops being MAD and can ignore weak scores like full casters are able too (but still with a martial flavour), and doesn't have to have a full collectlion of +6 items to keep pace with his peers.

[Melcar]

Hmm. In a 'standard' W European- type setting monk might be a synonym for cleric, or at least a sub-type of that. The Eastern mystic/ martial artist/ Ki-powers thing doesn't really fit in there.

In D&D terms, monk = MAD with weak class abilities (or, if you design for WOTC, a class with no dead levels, in contrast to the Wizard, who hardly gets anything, poor lamb).

I have to admit here that my experience of martial arts films is limited pretty much to Kung-Fu Panda. That said, for me the flavour is very much of someone whose inner something (Wis, I guess, in game terms) transcends the physical- you get these tiny frail old folks punching through bricks and dancing up walls not because they also have STR, DEX and CON in the mid-20s, but despite having mediocre scores in those stats. If I were rebuilding the Monk class from the ground up, I'd give some thought allowing WIS in place of other ability scores. So at, say, 4th level, a monk could use his 18 WIS in place of STR of 8 in all situations (in effect he gets an 18 STR, but still looks frail as he used to). Then a few levels later, he can effectively replace his CON of 10, or DEX of 12 with WIS. Maybe chose an ability score to 'replace' each time he gets an ability score boost, maybe do it as 'Monk level to all non-WIS scores, up to a maximum of current WIS score'. The Monk thus stops being MAD and can ignore weak scores like full casters are able too (but still with a martial flavour), and doesn't have to have a full collectlion of +6 items to keep pace with his peers.

I like this Idea very much. I have a level 7 monk, in a casual game we play, and I really found the " I need 4 high stats..." to be quite difficult to balance. In the end, I went low on con, hoping for high avoindance and possible some infight heals... But your suggestion would make it easy and would fit the whole "wholeness of mind and body." I will try to remember this for future refrence!

[Psyren]

A monk who wants to fight unarmed should be better at it than a Fighter.

Yes.


Fighting is all the fighter has, at least the monk has mobility and supernatural utility options. At the very least, the fighter should be able to fight with unarmed as well as a monk could if the fighter has chosen unarmed for his focus.

I view the Fighter's strength as versatility/breadth, not in focus/depth, particularly where iconic styles are concerned. Similarly, a Fighter can be a competent archer, but the very best archers should be Rangers, because that is their iconic fit. Or a fighter can be good with a pair of daggers, but a Rogue should be the optimal choice for that style. A Fighter would outperform all three if for some reason you wanted a character that could swap between them seamlessly, but if you want to focus exclusively on one of these, the Fighter should come second (albeit a close second.)

For weapons/styles that don't have a clear iconic fit however, the Fighter should be best - e.g. Best At Dire Flail, Best At Heavy Crossbow, Best at Bastard Sword etc.


TL;DR - Fighter is Jack of All Styles, Master of Most (But Not All.)

[LTwerewolf]

That leads to an interesting discussion about what "best" really means in the context. "Most attacks" and "most damage" aren't necessarily the same thing.

[khadgar567]

That leads to an interesting discussion about what "best" really means in the context. "Most attacks" and "most damage" aren't necessarily the same thing.
aka kenshiro or goku who you want to build as your monk

[Psyren]

That leads to an interesting discussion about what "best" really means in the context. "Most attacks" and "most damage" aren't necessarily the same thing.

My perspective is that this thread isn't so much about hashing out specific mechanics (that's what the Homebrew subforum is for) - but rather, a discussion of high level design goals. So speaking in those broad terms, I would say that "best" means that "a monk who chooses to fight unarmed should have more baseline effectiveness than a fighter who does the same. In situations where unarmed combat proves to be more advantageous overall, the monk should then shine above other melee classes as a whole."

Effectiveness itself is a broad term, which I boil down to three possible definitions:
- Higher DPR (all else being equal): A monk fighting unarmed should have higher damage potential than a fighter fighting unarmed, assuming equal level, wealth, stats etc. This can come from a higher number of max-bonus attacks, the ability to bypass creature defenses like DR/regen/miss chance, higher crit chances, greater damage dice, the ability to charge unarmed strikes with elemental bonuses, etc.
- More/Early options: a monk fighting unarmed should have access to techniques in combat that an unarmed fighter of the same level (or even any level) does not - like the ability to duplicate or qualify for special unarmed combat feats earlier than the fighter does, special defenses that activate only with free hands, or special moves (like a flying kick pounce) that the fighter doesn't get at all.
- A combination of both of the above: A monk gets multiple options when fighting unarmed - some of which can be put towards the first bullet (raw DPR), while others can be put to the second (control, utility, or even support.) Even if the fighter gains access to some of these, they should either come later or be less effective than the monk versions, so that the monk's niche as unarmed combatant is protected.

I recognize that the devil is in the details with a lot of these, but as a high-level design goal, I think this captures what a lot of people have in mind when they think "monks should be best at unarmed."

[LTwerewolf]

My perspective is that this thread isn't so much about hashing out specific mechanics (that's what the Homebrew subforum is for) - but rather, a discussion of high level design goals.

This is exactly the intent of the thread.

[Gildedragon]

...That said, for me the flavour is very much of someone whose inner something (Wis, I guess, in game terms) transcends the physical- you get these tiny frail old folks punching through bricks and dancing up walls not because they also have STR, DEX and CON in the mid-20s, but despite having mediocre scores in those stats. If I were rebuilding the Monk class from the ground up, I'd give some thought allowing WIS in place of other ability scores. So at, say, 4th level, a monk could use his 18 WIS in place of STR of 8 in all situations (in effect he gets an 18 STR, but still looks frail as he used to). Then a few levels later, he can effectively replace his CON of 10, or DEX of 12 with WIS. Maybe chose an ability score to 'replace' each time he gets an ability score boost, maybe do it as 'Monk level to all non-WIS scores, up to a maximum of current WIS score'. The Monk thus stops being MAD and can ignore weak scores like full casters are able too (but still with a martial flavour), and doesn't have to have a full collectlion of +6 items to keep pace with his peers.
This is a remarkably good idea

Though I do find Wis to AC to be a very Monk ability and getting wis twice to AC might be a bit much (though really how big would the boost be? 4 extra AC points? 6? Monks already don't wear armor so...)

[Psyren]

This is exactly the intent of the thread.

Which goes back to the second half of my post - "most damage" is one way to be the best (and, while I agree with you that "most attacks" is not necessarily equivalent, it can be), but there are several others.


This is a remarkably good idea

Though I do find Wis to AC to be a very Monk ability and getting wis twice to AC might be a bit much (though really how big would the boost be? 4 extra AC points? 6? Monks already don't wear armor so...)

Rather than power up the modifier bonus (which can easily get you a monk who exceeds full plate AC at level 1), I would consider buffing the static bonus they get from levels. The monk's problem is less about what you get early on, and more about how badly it scales - hence why it's such a great dip but a lously single-class.

[Zaq]

The word itself means a lot of different things, though that is so plainly obvious that I probably don't even need this first sentence. Some examples:


There's your historical (/semi-historical, since there's lots of depictions of this sort of thing with many varying degrees of authenticity) European-style cloistered religious figure. The attributes of this that stand out here are "religious" (even though I'm entirely willing to believe that some folks entered monasteries for primarily political reasons rather than true religious devotion) and "cloistered" (meaning that they're not generally going to be aware of or mixed up in the goings-on of the rest of the world, which of course can contribute to comedic depictions like this one (http://the-toast.net/series/two-monks-inventing-things/)). This wouldn't translate super well to D&D, but I'd compare them more to Clerics or (even better) Archivists than to the punchy-kicky Monk in the PHB.
I've read a fair bit of classical Japanese literature, so in that context, there's the idea of someone who has voluntarily "left the world" and, nominally, focused on furthering themselves on the path to Buddhist enlightenment, though they may or may not actually be removed from the rest of society. Of course, when you're reading something like the Genji Monogatari or similar works of that era, you're dealing pretty much exclusively with an extremely privileged upper class of society, and there's always sort of an unwritten understanding that these folks who take the tonsure have a pretty extensive support network in place (they claim to just hole up and recite sutras day in and day out, but their food still comes from somewhere, y'know?). It's actually very common for people in this context to "enter religion" for nakedly political reasons, as well.
Still in classical Japanese literature but moving a little bit farther ahead, in the context of the Heike Monogatari, you've got the monks of Mt. Hiei and of similar major temples, and they're usually depicted as hot-headed, violent, and too involved with political intrigue for their own good (the well-connected political nobility often view them either as pawns or as boors who seek to meddle in the affairs of their betters). Plenty of folks in that story who could be described as monks are shown to be incomparably rude/provincial/uncultured, and they aren't at all removed from the world around them. They certainly do a lot of fighting, though I don't recall any depictions of them fighting unarmed as a primary strategy.
Moving towards contemporary fiction and games, we all know that D&D 3.5 shows the Monk as a mess of a class that tries and fails to be a self-reliant unarmed/unarmored living weapon. That said, even though the mechanics fall flat, there's enough material to give us an idea of what the developers intended—they're supposed to be highly mobile, they're supposed to attack very quickly, they're supposed to be very dodgy, and they're supposed to focus on their own internal strength rather than on external tools.
Guild Wars had a class called the "Monk" that was basically a straight up white mage. They were very clearly casters rather than weapon-users, and they were your go-to class for healing, defensive buffs, and so on, though they had a branch of skills dedicated to "smiting" (which was almost never effective as a straightforward damage path, though that's not to say that it wasn't useful at all). They explicitly got power from the gods, so they're way closer to D&D Clerics than to anything else. I liked nearly every part of GW's overall feel, but I definitely liked that even though having a Monk (or a pseudo-Monk) dedicated to healing was a near necessity in difficult missions, there were lots of different ways to build an effective Monk and take care of your party without feeling like every other Monk in the world.
D&D 4e had the Monk as a psionic striker (striker = primary damage character) with a focus on mobility and on spreading damage around (you could build a decent single-target-focused Monk, but it wasn't necessarily what the game guided you towards). They used implements rather than weapons (though they were very good at using weapons as implements), but they were definitely frontline attackers rather than backline supporters. I like the idea of D&D Monks as being psionic, since it fits with the idea of pulling strength from yourself rather than from anything else (but still acknowledging a fantastical/supernatural component).
Legend made it easy to chop up its classes into their component parts (tracks), but the Monk as presented in Legend was the go-to class for applying status conditions along with physical attacks. They were the only ones who could smoothly use combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, etc.) at high levels without sacrificing effectiveness, and they got some combat maneuvers that other characters didn't. (Taking that specific track was basically the quick-and-dirty way of allowing a character to do interesting things on most or all of their attacks in a round.) They also had a track dedicated to "nope, that bad thing you're doing to me doesn't bother me much," which was neat. The Monk had perhaps a slightly lower damage ceiling than some other classes based around physical attacks, but I like the idea of the Monk being the one who applies debuffs with every hit rather than the one who just achieves the highest numbers. (To me, that's a natural extension of 3.5's Stunning Fist and 4e's pseudo-controller focus.)


By no means are these the only games or the only fiction that discuss monks, but these are the kinds of things that I think of when we're talking about monks. When you're dealing with the context of 3.5 and its offshoots, there's a lot of baggage associated with the Monk being what it is; it's a PHB class, so nearly every book acknowledges it in some way, but it's also extremely poorly written and unbalanced, so there's a lot of unpleasantness there. I guess it all depends on what your goal is. If you just want to rewrite the Monk (still keeping the vague idea of them being martial artists who probably focus on unarmed combat), there's dozens and dozens of homebrew fixes out there (of varying quality, naturally). If you want to redefine what the Monk means to your players, that's an entirely different story. You might focus on the religious aspect (which, in D&D, usually means some kind of divine magic), you might focus on the self-improvement aspect (which might translate to straight combat abilities, or it might be something similar to the Factotum's Inspiration abilities, or it might be a menu of stuff you can pick and choose from), you might stick with the martial artist image, or you might do something else entirely.

[tsj]

in my view... classes should be limited in number... so the monk should be flexible enough to cover the following...

religious zealot or
martial artist or
a little of both

[Psyren]

in my view... classes should be limited in number... so the monk should be flexible enough to cover the following...

religious zealot or
martial artist or
a little of both

I would say "ascetic" or maybe "mystic" rather than "zealot." (The latter belongs more with Clerics and Paladins; a monk's divine connection tends to be more incidental and generally spiritual rather than aimed at one specific faith or creed like a zealot's would be.)

[Canine]

I really do feel like the monk is two distinctly different concepts that got merged into one (to the detriment of both) in 3.X. But there are some traits both should have:
-Awareness (monks should always be present and 'on guard')
-Strong Willed (monks should always be clear of mind and difficult to scare or dominate)
-Agile and Athletic (if there is a terrain obstacle, the monk shouldn't be the one to slow everyone down)
-Non-reliant on weapons and armor (monks should still be able to fight without having equipment with them

I like these traits as high-level ideals for the class. The d20 Rokugan (I forget if they were 3.0 or 3.5) books have several feats and abilities that emphasize these well; I'm irrationally fond of a feat that lets you make perception checks at no penalty while asleep.

[Milo v3]

I like these traits as high-level ideals for the class.
Having that as a bar for high-level ideal may be why martials suck at high-level.... That stuff sounds like it should be happening at 5th level to me.

[Prime32]

A monk is... someone who seeks perfection and mastery of the body, both physically and spiritually. As they grow in skill they can take control of normally involuntary body processes, remove their subconscious limiters, and manipulate the flow of energy throughout their body. They're good at fighting, but that isn't really the point of their training (the average monastery will have a few acolytes who develop into monk/fighters, monk/rogues, etc. as a result of their individual talents).

I like the idea of monks picking a "path" that grants a small number of unique abilities as they level up. Rivalries between different martial arts are a common theme which that would help to emphasise. E.g. one school teaches members how to walk on air, a second how to make their skin harder than steel, and a third how to shoot fire from their hands. At higher levels you can pick some of the basics of other paths.


A monk who wants to fight unarmed should be better at it than a Fighter.

Fighting is all the fighter has, at least the monk has mobility and supernatural utility options. At the very least, the fighter should be able to fight with unarmed as well as a monk could if the fighter has chosen unarmed for his focus.
An unarmed fighter would be the equivalent of a Krav Maga practitioner or something like that. If a monk limits himself to only doing things a fighter can do, then the fighter will be better. But the fighter can't turn intangible or punch people from across the room.

[Ruethgar]

To me monk means free feats and early entry shenanigans.

Flaw: Education
Flaw: Dodge
First: Mobility
Martial Monk: Spring Attack

Mmmm Jaunter at level 2, just need to visit one more plane after you dream once. A friend with Precocious Apprentice Rope Trick might work.