So... Where is Belkar's romantic opposite?

[Starhawk]

I mean Roy has one. Vaarsuvius has its significant other. Elan and Haley have each other. Durkon needs to be redeemed, or at least a chance of being redeemed before he finds his. But... doesn't Belkar need to have someone to be loved by before he dies?

Just hoping...

[Gift Jeraff]

Vaarsuvius

[dancrilis]

Here she is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)

Belkar however knows he is an evil guy and so when he met her he did the decent thing and let her down gently instead of forming a relationship where he would only hurt her.

[Starhawk]

Here she is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)

Belkar however knows he is an evil guy and so when he met her he did the decent thing and let her down gently instead of forming a relationship where he would only hurt her.

Wow... I'd forgotten about her

It'd be nice if he got some affection before he gets killed off.

[Starhawk]

Actually... I'm not sure he's evil any more. I think that his friend and his feline companion has tilted him over the evil line. He cares. And given he's supposed to die before the comic ends I want him to find someone before he's killed.

[Starhawk]

And I just want to add I think that Mr. Scruffy is an avatar for the Tiger of the Twelve. Putting that out there for the record.

[Darth Paul]

Actually... I'm not sure he's evil any more. I think that his friend and his feline companion has tilted him over the evil line. He cares.

By his own statement, holy water burns if he spills it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html). So... still evil. The caring and loving his cat is still possible, even for evil people.

Maybe he'll hook up with Hilgya? :smallyuk:

[NerdyKris]

He's also burned by the protection from evil ring. So yeah, he's still very much chaotic evil.

[dancrilis]

It'd be nice if he got some affection before he gets killed off.

Depending on what you mean by affection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html) he got that also.


He's also burned by the protection from evil ring. So yeah, he's still very much chaotic evil.

Although perhaps less on both than he used to be (if he can scrape into the outlands it might be funny).

[Jay R]

Everyone he doesn't hate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), of course.

[factotum]

But... doesn't Belkar need to have someone to be loved by before he dies?


No. No he doesn't. And I'm not saying that just because I wish Belkar would get on and die already, but because I don't see why every character in the strip has to find love before the end--it's not a romantic comedy!

[Jasdoif]

If we're playing "Stretch Past the Limit of Believability" in the romance department, I'd have to note that Belkar's recent interaction with Andi (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) is much more respectful than most of his interactions with sapient beings.

[Morquard]

Actually... I'm not sure he's evil any more. I think that his friend and his feline companion has tilted him over the evil line. He cares. And given he's supposed to die before the comic ends I want him to find someone before he's killed.
Even Evil people can care about friends and family and still be irredeemably evil.

As always, true character isn't measured by how someone treats his friends and loved ones, but how he treats his enemies. (How often do you hear about serial killers who had a family and were described by their neighbors as "a loving father and a pillar of the community"?)

The one thing that can be argued maybe is that he's becoming less Chaotic and more Neutral Evil, but he's still evil, reasons have been given above.

[Wildroses]

I don't think love has to be romantic. Belkar is deeply loved by Mr Scruffy, and it makes him very happy. Introducing a romantic love for Belkar seems a bit redundant for the story. What could a romantic interest really teach him or give him in the short time he has left that Mr Scruffy already hasn't? (First one to say sex gets slapped, I was talking emotionally not physically).

Which is why part of me hopes they die together. I don't want Mr Scruffy to lose another owner and be heartbroken. In fact, one of my crack theories is Belkar will decide not to allow himself to be resurrected because Mr Scruffy wants to stay with Shojo, and Belkar decides he'd rather stay with Mr Scruffy.

[Peelee]

I mean Roy has one. Vaarsuvius has its significant other. Elan and Haley have each other. Durkon needs to be redeemed, or at least a chance of being redeemed before he finds his. But... doesn't Belkar need to have someone to be loved by before he dies?

Just hoping...

Why do Belkar and Durkon need one?

[2D8HP]

How often do you hear about serial killers who had a family and were described by their neighbors as "a loving father and a pillar of the community"?I think usually it's, "He was the quiet type, keeped to himself mostly. Not like the loud wild partiers in that house! I WISH HE ATE THEM!
:wink:

Everyone he doesn't hate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), of course.
Heh.
"Wild empathy check. WILD EMPATHY CHECK!"
Still cracks me up.
:biggrin:

[mouser9169]

Belkar does get plenty of lovin', at least the physical kind.

But far be it from me to stand in the way of anyone's ship. There are plenty of likely candidates out there (and even more unlikely ones) for whatever time he has left.

Although if he has a partner who can plane shift...

[BaronOfHell]

Here she is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)

Belkar however knows he is an evil guy and so when he met her he did the decent thing and let her down gently instead of forming a relationship where he would only hurt her.

I doubt she'll remember him, and I don't think we know if her intentions were anything more than casual.

[Liquor Box]

Belkar Bitterleaf gets plenty of action - it's just a matter of finding a character hot enough to hold his interest.

[dtilque]

Hey, not too long ago, Belkar turned down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) a possible hookup. I guess a sexy shoeless god of war gets so many offers he can be picky....

[Morquard]

I think usually it's, "He was the quiet type, keeped to himself mostly. Not like the loud wild partiers in that house! I WISH HE ATE THEM!
:wink:
Yes those exist too for sure. Just because someone is a horrible monster, does not mean they're a horrible monster to everyone. Because no matter if it's "He was a loving family father" or "He was the quiet type", it almost always continues with "I never expected him to be capable of something like that".

[Peelee]

Yes those exist too for sure. Just because someone is a horrible monster, does not mean they're a horrible monster to everyone.

And I say, Zangief you are bad guy, but this does not mean you are *bad* guy.

[137beth]

Why does he have to have one? Can't there be at least one character in the entire saga without a romantic partner?

[martianmister]

Mr Scruffy.

[nleseul]

Why does he have to have one? Can't there be at least one character in the entire saga without a romantic partner?

I, personally, am perfectly content to assume that Belkar is aromantic (https://www.buzzfeed.com/mcrosswell/5-myths-about-aromanticism-tysc) until proven otherwise.

[wumpus]

Even Evil people can care about friends and family and still be irredeemably evil.

As always, true character isn't measured by how someone treats his friends and loved ones, but how he treats his enemies. (How often do you hear about serial killers who had a family and were described by their neighbors as "a loving father and a pillar of the community"?)

The one thing that can be argued maybe is that he's becoming less Chaotic and more Neutral Evil, but he's still evil, reasons have been given above.

The entire "Belkar redemption" sequence started with Shojo steering Belkar into a chaotic form with a better chance at survival: there's no reason to believe that he is neutral evil unless you consider neutral evil is "less evil" than chaotic evil (by definition it allows "more evil", since it allows any action based on how evil it is).

As far as his evilness, he still has chaotic evil written in bold type on his character sheet (before this he had 9 kilonazis of evil, and even a much improved Belkar would presumably qualify for vile feats). He is also presumably faking any move toward chaotic neutral, but presumably given much more time than he has he would "fake it till he makes it" to chaotic neutral. But there is no way for that to happen in the little time he has.

[Calemyr]

Didn't Belkar already spend some time with a girl back at the end of the Greysky arc (i.e. the one with Roy the flesh golem)? Are you expecting him to actually show feelings of affection for someone other than his pets?

I don't think there's any justification to expect more for him in that regard.

[norman250]

It's the cat. Has to be.

[StLordeth]

Nah. Belkar is fine how he is.

[KorvinStarmast]

Nah. Belkar is fine how he is. Yeah. More relationship mush will not add value to the story.

[137beth]

I, personally, am perfectly content to assume that Belkar is aromantic (https://www.buzzfeed.com/mcrosswell/5-myths-about-aromanticism-tysc) until proven otherwise.

Personally, I headcanon that all characters are aromantic until it is demonstrated otherwise. Otherwise I'd never see depictions of aromantic characters in media:smallfrown:

[LunarDrop]

Vaarsuvius. I ship Vaarsuvius and Belkar so hard, they are my OTP. I am hoping against hope it will become canon, as they are perfect for each other. You can see how they are influencing each other, with Belkar actually being considerate at times with the androgynous wizard (since when does he genuinely thank people?) and Vaaarsuvius not taking his insults to heart anymore. I could go on about these guys, really, for the longest time but I don't think you guys want to hear it.

[Peelee]

Vaarsuvius. I ship Vaarsuvius and Belkar so hard, they are my OTP. I am hoping against hope it will become canon, as they are perfect for each other. You can see how they are influencing each other, with Belkar actually being considerate at times with the androgynous wizard (since when does he genuinely thank people?) and Vaaarsuvius not taking his insults to heart anymore. I could go on about these guys, really, for the longest time but I don't think you guys want to hear it.

[Unrepetently evil] is a perfect for [making eternal penance for his evil]?

[Onyavar]

I'm curious why no one mentioned Jenny (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html) so far (or sorry if I overlooked that?). The relationship began in 611 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) and ended in 648 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html), so it's the one that got the longest screentime.

Also, as already mentioned, he turned down that female gnome, he kissed Vaarsuvius, he hit on Royette, but that hardly counts as "signficant other". Neither do his beloved animals, ugh. He's got his fair share of whores too, but it's only alluded to in the comic.

[factotum]

I'm curious why no one mentioned Jenny (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html) so far (or sorry if I overlooked that?). The relationship began in 611 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) and ended in 648 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html), so it's the one that got the longest screentime.

Pretty sure it has already been mentioned, but it was hardly romantic, was it? He wouldn't even share a sandwich with her!

[AuthorGirl]

Belkar however knows he is an evil guy and so when he met her he did the decent thing and let her down gently instead of forming a relationship where he would only hurt her.

Well, then, it sounds like that's a pretty major point towards his redemption.
By the way, Mr. Scruffy is Belkar's redemptive influence. Seriously, I do not mean this in a creepy way, but can you get any more sappy than devoutly caring for an adorable little cat? Plus Mr. Scruffy had no home once his previous owner died. Plus Belkar is seriously softening up with every moment spent in that cat's company; Mr. Scruffy is a cause that Belkar will unselfishly fight for.

[AuthorGirl]

[Unrepetently evil] is a perfect for [making eternal penance for his evil]?

Um. V is married with two adorable children, and also they probably wouldn't have much of a relationship as one won't even share his/her/whatever's gender identity.

[2D8HP]

Um. V is married with two adorable children, and also they probably wouldn't have much of a relationship as one won't even share his/her/whatever's gender identity.Yes, V is married to a partner, and they have children who are sibling and sibling.
Despite Haley referring to the others in the party as the "boys" when they shared a room, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) that may just refer to their lack of maturity rather than gender, as V can't recognize gender differences, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html) whether that's an inspired bit of Worldbuilding and is true of other Elves in Rich's world is still a mystery.

BTW,
In my first PbP game ever I made a PC and purposely the gender entry blank. The other poster's insisted that I put it down, and I relented because in fairness my PC was only half-elf, though it may have been fun otherwise.
:wink:

[Peelee]

[Unrepetently evil] is a perfect for [making eternal penance for his evil]?Um. V is married with two adorable children, and also they probably wouldn't have much of a relationship as one won't even share his/her/whatever's gender identity.

I fail to see your point. What, exactly, are you replying to in my statement? That V can't attempt to atone because dude has kids, or because he keeps his gender identity shrouded in mystery? That either of these actually do make him a perfect fit for Belkar? Throw me a bone here, I'm lost.

[Ruck]

Vaarsuvius isn't married.

[factotum]

Vaarsuvius isn't married.

...any more. :smallsmile:

[2D8HP]

Vaarsuvius isn't married.
...any more. :smallsmile:


True V didn't contest the divorce. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

or

really try to save the marriage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html)

so that could leave a door open for a 'ship 'tween V and Belkar, and while

Belkar has shown that he finds V attractive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html),

but

V dissuades him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html)

and

Belkar just doesn't go steady (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)

[skim172]

We're all assuming here that Belkar, a halfling, could even be romantically attracted to an organism outside his species. I'm aware that inter-species sexuality is a popular theme in fantasy, for reasons that we probably don't want to explore. But it would be effectively like a human being attracted to a chimpanzee. Sure, we share 98% of our DNA and opposable thumbs, but there are clear reasons why Bobo and I would never work as a couple, no matter how I may dream outside the primate house bars...

We don't even know if Belkar has the capacity for romantic attraction - even if he wasn't a sociopath, the halfling brain might not even be wired in such a way to associate love with mating - let alone if their social norms would inculcate that kind of behavior. For all we know, halflings lay eggs, 20,000 to a brood, which are then infected by rapidly mutating viruses that introduces new genetic changes, and once the halfling-lings hatch, they'll fight for survival within the egg-pit until the strongest of the brood emerges alone blinking into the sunlight.

This would explain much about Belkar's personality. Durkula may have adapted to the dark, but Belkar was born in it, smothered it, and cannibalized it for sustenance.

As for why Belkar has been seen previously smooching it up with other species, I submit that rather than mating with these people, he is instead harvesting specimens of their DNA and proteins, to be stored for the purposes of mutating his own brood, when the time comes.

[nleseul]

But it would be effectively like a human being attracted to a chimpanzee.

More like a modern human being attracted to a Neanderthal. Which totally did happen (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/humans-mated-neandertals-much-earlier-and-more-frequently-thought).

[Darth Paul]

But remember, this IS a D&D setting, where cross-species attraction and mating happens regularly, and is moreover a staple of fantasy settings going back to Tolkien and long before.

Understandably, from my point of view, because those elven women are totally hot. And their men are... from where I sit... rather lacking in studliness, so I could see where the ladies might go shopping around the nearby human villages for a suitably burly fellow to ease the tedium of their long lives. Which, in such a setting, I'd be happy to do. :smallwink:

[Ruck]

I assumed from skim's last post that that last paragraph was a joke, but if not, then yeah, OOTS has a sizeable number of inter-species relationships / romantic involvements.

[Darth Paul]

Personally, I headcanon that all characters are aromantic until it is demonstrated otherwise. Otherwise I'd never see depictions of aromantic characters in media:smallfrown:

Sherlock Holmes? (I mean the original novel version, not whatever they have on TV now.)

How about Dr. Van Helsing in Dracula?

Wait, I may be making your point for you...

[DuctTapeKatar]

I think that IF he were to get a romantic interest- if he is even capable of even feeling love, compassion, or any other feeling of insatiable bloodlust- it would be another psychopath. Basically, his romantic interest would be his Sexy Shirtless Goddess of War to his Sexy Shoeless God of War.

If not, it would probably be someone who can cool him down, literally or figuratively, as ice magic tends to be the best way to stop people from doing something that you don't like. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html) Something like Aphrodite and Ares, with our mystery gal being hot enough that even with the crappy marriage after the honeymoon would be worth it, or someone that actually strikes his fancy as someone he would actually like to be around for reasons other than because she's hot/really good at fighting. Maybe she can cook better than he can?

But that's all IF he were to get a romantic interest. Note how large I made the if. I actually don't think he needs one, but I won't object as long as it doesn't screw around with his formula too much.

[wumpus]

True V didn't contest the divorce. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

or

really try to save the marriage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html)

so that could leave a door open for a 'ship 'tween V and Belkar, and while

Belkar has shown that he finds V attractive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html),

but

V dissuades him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html)

and

Belkar just doesn't go steady (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)

Not to mention Belkar's dramatically limited lifespan would make an ideal [dramatic] romance. Unfortunately, I doubt that the Giant is willing to commit yet another subplot just to get V and Belkar together. Also I don't think there will be all that many strips *after* Belkar kicks off for V to gush own about unrequited love for Belkar (I'm betting on non-revivable, but hopefully with at least a chance of progressing up the Abyss to full blown "sexy shoeless god of war").

[Mandor]

Remember Soon's speech to Miko about Redemption.

I'm truly sorry, Miko, but redemption requires more than simply the execution of your duty, even if you follow that duty to the end.
True redemption demands that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you.
That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong.
You have done none of this.

Granted Belkar isn't looking to be fully redeemed into Paladinhood, but he's also MUCH more firmly in the Deep End of the Alignment Pool, than Miko ever was. He's currently on a better path than he was in the early comic but.... I haven't seen much in the way of seeking forgiveness for past misdeeds or atoning for his actions. MAYBE he'll make it to Neutral before he shuffles off this mortal coil. MAYBE. But I wouldn't bet on it.

[Calthropstu]

Belkar's romantic opposite is painfully obvious to anyone reading the comic.

Belkar's romantic opposite is Belkar.

[mouser9169]

Remember Soon's speech to Miko about Redemption.

I'm truly sorry, Miko, but redemption requires more than simply the execution of your duty, even if you follow that duty to the end.
True redemption demands that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you.
That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong.
You have done none of this.

Granted Belkar isn't looking to be fully redeemed into Paladinhood, but he's also MUCH more firmly in the Deep End of the Alignment Pool, than Miko ever was. He's currently on a better path than he was in the early comic but.... I haven't seen much in the way of seeking forgiveness for past misdeeds or atoning for his actions. MAYBE he'll make it to Neutral before he shuffles off this mortal coil. MAYBE. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Changing alignment from Evil to Neutral (or even to Good) does not require Redemption. Especially not the kind of redemption required for a paladin to regain her powers. It simply requires a solid change of world view and belief.

This is why the occasional Evil act does not cause a Good person's alignment to change any more than the occasional Good act dings an Evil one.

All that said, we've gotten plenty of in-comic evidence that Belkar is still squarely in the 'deep end' of the alignment pool.

[Darth Paul]

Changing alignment from Evil to Neutral (or even to Good) does not require Redemption. Especially not the kind of redemption required for a paladin to regain her powers. It simply requires a solid change of world view and belief.

This is why the occasional Evil act does not cause a Good person's alignment to change any more than the occasional Good act dings an Evil one.

All that said, we've gotten plenty of in-comic evidence that Belkar is still squarely in the 'deep end' of the alignment pool.

Very well analyzed. There's also little or no evidence that Belkar is even seeking to change his alignment. His neutral or good-ish acts (even the early ones involving being kind to Mr. Scruffy) were all against his better judgement. You can see that every time he has a good-ish impulse, it rubs him the wrong way.

As I see it, not only is Belkar still paddling happily around in the deep end of the alignment pool, he's also peeing in the direction of the rest of the pool, laughing evilly all the while.

[Peelee]

Very well analyzed. There's also little or no evidence that Belkar is even seeking to change his alignment. His neutral or good-ish acts (even the early ones involving being kind to Mr. Scruffy) were all against his better judgement. You can see that every time he has a good-ish impulse, it rubs him the wrong way.

As I see it, not only is Belkar still paddling happily around in the deep end of the alignment pool, he's also peeing in the direction of the rest of the pool, laughing evilly all the while.

I think this may be the best metaphor I've heard to describe Belkar.

[goodpeople25]

I love the metaphor but i don't think it fits perfectly when i think about (mainly that the metaphor has physical actions while I think the situation also has to do with his lack of actions recently)
I think it's more like he was and is doing that but now he stops to play with his cat once in a while being annoyed that people find it adorable. And that he has been floating in place for longer periods recently because he can't (or if it would hurt him,ect) do that( for whatever reasons) while still thinking how awesome it'll be to get back to his splashing peeing fun. But that a bit too wordy to be a awesome metaphor anyway.

[Darth Paul]

I can go along with that somewhat, but that's really not a reflection on Belkar; it's just that the overall focus has been on other characters for a while now. We've had Haley vs. Crystal Golem, then Belkar vs. Durkula (which was, alas, rather brief and one-sided), followed by the Godsmoot and an extended Roy vs. Durkula epic conflict. Belkar hasn't had much of a chance to shine lately.

Staying with the pool metaphors, he's been treading water.

[wumpus]

Very well analyzed. There's also little or no evidence that Belkar is even seeking to change his alignment. His neutral or good-ish acts (even the early ones involving being kind to Mr. Scruffy) were all against his better judgement. You can see that every time he has a good-ish impulse, it rubs him the wrong way.

As I see it, not only is Belkar still paddling happily around in the deep end of the alignment pool, he's also peeing in the direction of the rest of the pool, laughing evilly all the while.

Nevertheless, Belkar not only *has* good-ish impulses, he *acts* on them (neither were possible for the first 75% of the comic). Given enough time, I suspect he can "fake it till he makes it" to if not chaotic neutral, at least be headed to Pandamonium (which honestly will likely happen if he somehow trips the barrier to chaotic neutral).

Alas, he only has a couple of weeks (instead of the decades it would really take). The best we can hope for is a place on the battlefield and a chance to eventually officially be declared "the sexy shoeless god of war").


Belkar's romantic opposite is painfully obvious to anyone reading the comic.

Belkar's romantic opposite is Belkar.

Ouch. I'm sure that had Rich wanted a romantic opposite for Belkar he would have had one he could lust after more and hate less than himself, but until then his romantic opposite remains Belkar.

[Goblin_Priest]

It's Scruffy.

[wumpus]

Yes, V is married to a partner, and they have children who are sibling and sibling.
Despite Haley referring to the others in the party as the "boys" when they shared a room, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) that may just refer to their lack of maturity rather than gender, as V can't recognize gender differences, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html) whether that's an inspired bit of Worldbuilding and is true of other Elves in Rich's world is still a mystery.

BTW,
In my first PbP game ever I made a PC and purposely the gender entry blank. The other poster's insisted that I put it down, and I relented because in fairness my PC was only half-elf, though it may have been fun otherwise.
:wink:

Was. The key word here is was. Spoilers for 1045Looks like V doesn't have the time to ship with Belkar, even in regret.
Personally, I think that V is what you get if you leave gender blank (actually V's gender line is smudged and unreadable, not blank) on a charisma dumped elf PC. Andrej Pejic* is what you get for a high-charisma [non-gender specified] elf (and is presumably what you think of by the "gender:elf" trope. But power-gamers like V (never mind the evocation, maybe this is a players first stab at 3.x) invariable dump charisma (to the point that they would be Evan and his band of nobodies if it weren't for Roy and his super-high pointbuy stats).

* I'm not remotely familiar with the guy, just that he is capable of pulling off either gender at the highest modeling levels.

[MReav]

Belkar doesn't need romance when he's got ale and whores.