Cunning Action: Dash

[MatchesMalone]

What's the max movement with Cunning Action: Dash if I move my full 30 ft movement speed? Is it an additional 60 ft or is it halved?

[Pope Scarface]

Dash doubles your movement, it does not grant you an extra move. If your speed is 30, taking a Dash makes your speed 60.

[Slipperychicken]

Dash doubles your movement, it does not grant you an extra move. If your speed is 30, taking a Dash makes your speed 60.

It isn't strictly doubling, but grants additional movement equal to your speed. That means each dash action grants adds 30 feet of movement. There's no practical distinction between the two when a character can only take one dash in a turn (which is the case most of the time), but it becomes very important when a character can take multiple dashes in a turn, as multiple doublings would give a far greater increase than intended.

A character with 30 feet of speed taking two dash actions could move up to 90 feet. If you used the "doubles your movement" reading, you'd wind up doubling the movement twice and getting 120 feet instead, which is wrong.

[TheFlyingCleric]

It isn't strictly doubling, but grants additional movement equal to your speed. That means each dash action grants adds 30 feet of movement. There's no practical distinction between the two when a character can only take one dash in a turn (which is the case most of the time), but it becomes very important when a character can take multiple dashes in a turn, as multiple doublings would give a far greater increase than intended.

A character with 30 feet of speed taking two dash actions could move up to 90 feet. If you used the "doubles your movement" reading, you'd wind up doubling the movement twice and getting 120 feet instead, which is wrong.

This is how it works. Additionally, the dash action does not clear the movement you use before you take the dash action; that movement still counts towards reaching your new speed limit of 60 feet.

If you move 15 feet, then take the dash action, you have 60 feet of movement, but you have already used 15 feet. You only have 45 feet remaining for the rest of that turn.

[Malifice]

What's the max movement with Cunning Action: Dash if I move my full 30 ft movement speed? Is it an additional 60 ft or is it halved?

If you have a movement of 30' you move 30'.

Every time you take the dash action, you move another 30'.

A Rogue with 30' movement who moved his full movement and then took the Dash action moves a total of 60'.

He could also move 30' and then dash twice (as an action and a bonus action) for a total of 90'.

[DivisibleByZero]

A wood elf rogue (speed 35) with the mobile feat (+10) moves 45. He can use his action to dash for another 45, or he could use cunning action to dash for another 45, or both, totalling a potential 135 feet of movement in a round.

[Zman]

And a Rogue that just had hast cast on his can move 60', Dash an additional 60', and Cunning action Dash for another 60', and use its Haste Action to Dash an additional 60' for a total of 240' in one round.

[Tanarii]

Every time you take the dash action, you move another 30'.
Technically not correct. Every time you take the dash action, gain an extra 30' of movement on your turn.

The way the rules are worded, it's possible to interpret them as the action not having to be taken at the moment of resolution of the movement. Practically speaking that's normally an irrelevant difference of course.

That's more a philosophical point about rules declaration & resolution. Otherwise your point is entire correct for a speed of 30'.

(Clearly I woke up feeling pedantic this morning. :smallwink: )

[MatchesMalone]

So move 30 ft., use Cunning Action: Dash to move an additional 60 ft, and end with a movement of 90 ft, yes?

[R.Shackleford]

So move 30 ft., use Cunning Action: Dash to move an additional 60 ft, and end with a movement of 90 ft, yes?

Well, no, but yes.

Move: 30'

Action (Dash): 30'

Bonus Action (Cunning Action: Dash): 30'


Edit

Dash doesn't double what you already moved in the round, it just lets you move some more.

[RickAllison]

Sonic the Halfling wants to go fast. He takes Rogue 2 for Cunning Action, Fighter 2 for Action Surge, and Bladesinger X for Haste, along with Mobile. While in Bladesong, he has base movement speed of 45'. He casts Haste so he doubles that to a base speed of 90'. On his next turn, he uses his regular action to Dash, his bonus action to Dash through Cunning Action, his Action Surge to Dash, and his Haste action to Dash. He then gets 90+90+90+90+90=450'.

Do note that if he really wanted to go fast, he would be better suited taking a minimum of Bladesinger levels (just enough for Haste) and dropping his Fighter and Rogue levels for Monk. +10 to 25' makes for a more consistently speedy character (though Rogue 2 could have cause to remain, just so the Dashing is sustainable).

[R.Shackleford]

Sonic the Halfling wants to go fast. He takes Rogue 2 for Cunning Action, Fighter 2 for Action Surge, and Bladesinger X for Haste, along with Mobile. While in Bladesong, he has base movement speed of 45'. He casts Haste so he doubles that to a base speed of 90'. On his next turn, he uses his regular action to Dash, his bonus action to Dash through Cunning Action, his Action Surge to Dash, and his Haste action to Dash. He then gets 90+90+90+90+90=450'.

Do note that if he really wanted to go fast, he would be better suited taking a minimum of Bladesinger levels (just enough for Haste) and dropping his Fighter and Rogue levels for Monk. +10 to 25' makes for a more consistently speedy character (though Rogue 2 could have cause to remain, just so the Dashing is sustainable).

He should have been born a Wood Elf, racial speed of 35.

When will sanic learn *shakes head*

[smcmike]

Wasn't there a thread where they broke light speed with a carefully planned paladin of vengeance?

[georgie_leech]

Wasn't there a thread where they broke light speed with a carefully planned paladin of vengeance?

Give some credit to the pigeons, they worked hard too!

[RickAllison]

Wasn't there a thread where they broke light speed with a carefully planned paladin of vengeance?

Keep in mind that that was with a combination that doesn't actually work by RAW. Tunnel Fighter: "While in your defensive stance, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction". Vengeance Paladin allows the movement as part of the opportunity attack reaction. Since TF makes the OA not use a reaction, the movement cannot be used with it. So the light speed paladin-pigeon machine does not work.

Other than that illegal combo, it is difficult to even break the sound barrier.

Edit: It is more possible if helpers are involved, especially someone with Haste. If the speedster doesn't have to keep concentration on Haste, he can pick up some Totembarian abilities to boost his speed higher while raging.

[Corran]

Wasn't there a thread where they broke light speed with a carefully planned paladin of vengeance?
It was a theoritical experiment if I recall. We might be able to test it in 20 years, if we manage to breed enough pigeons.

On a sidenote, it never sat all that well with me, that being a rogue inherintely comes along with being a great runner. I mean, I get it, rogues might find themselves running a lot, but essentially what is a huge movement bonus that stacks on top of your whole movement...... meh, it is too obvious and too ''real'' in term of how it can be translated to great running speed to be ignored.

[MaxWilson]

It isn't strictly doubling, but grants additional movement equal to your speed. That means each dash action grants adds 30 feet of movement. There's no practical distinction between the two when a character can only take one dash in a turn (which is the case most of the time), but it becomes very important when a character can take multiple dashes in a turn, as multiple doublings would give a far greater increase than intended.

There's at least one practical distinction: doubling your movement (e.g. via Haste) doubles the cost of standing up from a Prone position, but Dashing does not.

If you stand up and then Dash, you move 45' instead of 60' (assuming 30' base speed). But if you stand up and move while Hasted, you move 30' instead of 60' (although you can use your bonus action from Haste to Dash for another 60' on top).

[RickAllison]

It was a theoritical experiment if I recall. We might be able to test it in 20 years, if we manage to breed enough pigeons.

On a sidenote, it never sat all that well with me, that being a rogue inherintely comes along with being a great runner. I mean, I get it, rogues might find themselves running a lot, but essentially what is a huge movement bonus that stacks on top of your whole movement...... meh, it is too obvious and too ''real'' in term of how it can be translated to great running speed to be ignored.

To me, it wasn't great running speed so much as quick acceleration and sprinting. True running speed is better measured worth the chase rules. In that case, the rogue is able to get a quick start on everyone else, but chews through his Dash actions much faster. By contrast, someone with the Mobile feat or another source of higher speed can sustain running fast than the rogue.

[Zalabim]

Combat movement speed lets you make turns and course corrections at a fairly precise level. It isn't an all-out sprint. Rogues are amazing at the series of consecutive sidesteps though.


There's at least one practical distinction: doubling your movement (e.g. via Haste) doubles the cost of standing up from a Prone position, but Dashing does not.

If you stand up and then Dash, you move 45' instead of 60' (assuming 30' base speed). But if you stand up and move while Hasted, you move 30' instead of 60' (although you can use your bonus action from Haste to Dash for another 60' on top).

Incidentally, this means you cover more ground by using a Dash and dive tactic to approach an entrenched position than you do by using normal movement speed and Dodging. Being prone works against enemies you can't see (and works against you if there's melee enemies), but Dodging works against Dexterity saves if you can see them, so there's trade-offs defensively as well.

[TheFlyingCleric]

So move 30 ft., use Cunning Action: Dash to move an additional 60 ft, and end with a movement of 90 ft, yes?

No.

But just to make it clear:


So move 30 ft., use Cunning Action: Dash to move an additional 60 ft 30 ft, and end with a movement of 90 ft 60 ft, yes?
It's as simple as that

[Malifice]

So move 30 ft., use Cunning Action: Dash to move an additional 60 ft, and end with a movement of 90 ft, yes?

Whats your characters pace? 30'

You can move that far on your turn.

Every time you take the dash action you can do it again. Move another 30'.

If you have a base movement of 30' You can:

1) Move 30'
2) Dash (move another 30') as your action.

If you also have cunning action you can:

1) Move 30'
2) Use your action to attack
3) Dash (move another 30') as a bonus action

Or even:

1) Move 30'
2) Dash (move another 30') as your action.
3) Dash (move another 30') as a bonus action

[Tanarii]

Do note that if he really wanted to go fast, he would be better suited taking a minimum of Bladesinger levels (just enough for Haste) and dropping his Fighter and Rogue levels for Monk. +10 to 25' makes for a more consistently speedy character (though Rogue 2 could have cause to remain, just so the Dashing is sustainable).It's important to note that, in terms of sustainability, Dash has limited utility over an extended period of time. Per the DMG Chase rules (p. 252), you can use Dash a maximum number of times = 3 + Con Mod. After that you have to start making Con DC 10 checks to avoid gaining a level of exhaustion.

[RickAllison]

It's important to note that, in terms of sustainability, Dash has limited utility over an extended period of time. Per the DMG Chase rules (p. 252), you can use Dash a maximum number of times = 3 + Con Mod. After that you have to start making Con DC 10 checks to avoid gaining a level of exhaustion.

Exactly, that's why I said rogues were great at sprinting! I also mentioned the chase rules in my follow-up post.

[AvatarVecna]

Wasn't there a thread where they broke light speed with a carefully planned paladin of vengeance?

Yes. Yes there was.


Keep in mind that that was with a combination that doesn't actually work by RAW. Tunnel Fighter: "While in your defensive stance, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction". Vengeance Paladin allows the movement as part of the opportunity attack reaction. Since TF makes the OA not use a reaction, the movement cannot be used with it. So the light speed paladin-pigeon machine does not work.

Other than that illegal combo, it is difficult to even break the sound barrier.

Edit: It is more possible if helpers are involved, especially someone with Haste. If the speedster doesn't have to keep concentration on Haste, he can pick up some Totembarian abilities to boost his speed higher while raging.

Hi! I made the combo. Yes, the combo works, and the reason it works is because you are misremembering what the combo actually was. I was not the one using Tunnel Fighter, other people brought that up...and the reason I didn't use it myself was for the exact reason you're stating here: it doesn't work.

No, what you need is a Scroll of Shapechange given to a Vengeance Paladin capable of using it, who uses it to turn into a Marilith (while an ally casts Foresight on them). Marilith allows for one reaction per creature turn; the intention is to let the Marilith use their reactive defense ability to give themselves +5 AC against an attacking enemy for the rest of the round, but these reactions can still be used for making regular old Opportunity Attacks...and since PCs under the effects of Shapechange keep their class features, the V Pally gets to move half his speed after making the opportunity attack. From there, you just need to have groups of about 20 pigeons where the groups are spaced (half Pally's move speed) ft apart from one another, with all the pigeons readying an action to Dash away if the Paladin moves into the space the group of pigeons is surrounding. Cue the Paladins turn, and they move into the nearest pigeon group; all the pigeons fly away, the Paladin makes OAs with advantage until they hit a pigeon, and then they get to move half their speed...right into another space surrounded by pigeons. Speed is theoretically infinite, provided you have infinite groups of pigeons.

[RickAllison]

Yes. Yes there was.



Hi! I made the combo. Yes, the combo works, and the reason it works is because you are misremembering what the combo actually was. I was not the one using Tunnel Fighter, other people brought that up...and the reason I didn't use it myself was for the exact reason you're stating here: it doesn't work.

No, what you need is a Scroll of Shapechange given to a Vengeance Paladin capable of using it, who uses it to turn into a Marilith (while an ally casts Foresight on them). Marilith allows for one reaction per creature turn; the intention is to let the Marilith use their reactive defense ability to give themselves +5 AC against an attacking enemy for the rest of the round, but these reactions can still be used for making regular old Opportunity Attacks...and since PCs under the effects of Shapechange keep their class features, the V Pally gets to move half his speed after making the opportunity attack. From there, you just need to have groups of about 20 pigeons where the groups are spaced (half Pally's move speed) ft apart from one another, with all the pigeons readying an action to Dash away if the Paladin moves into the space the group of pigeons is surrounding. Cue the Paladins turn, and they move into the nearest pigeon group; all the pigeons fly away, the Paladin makes OAs with advantage until they hit a pigeon, and then they get to move half their speed...right into another space surrounded by pigeons. Speed is theoretically infinite, provided you have infinite groups of pigeons.

Oh dear lord, that actually works. That really works. Be ashamed (and proud) of yourself.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh dear lord, that actually works. That really works. Be ashamed (and proud) of yourself.

Oh trust me, I'm both. And that's why I keep a link in my sig: to remind me of my accomplishment.:smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[RickAllison]

Oh trust me, I'm both. And that's why I keep a link in my sig: to remind me of my accomplishment.:smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Admittedly, it is highly dependent on unlikely items, but it isn't uncalled-for. Makes me feel dirty just thinking about it :smalltongue:

Also, it is like the commoner rail gun in that it only works due to the abstraction of the game. Realistically, you will reach a maximum speed where the pigeons can't fly away fast enough to accelerate you further (yes, I bring up realism when you are talking about turning into a six-armed demon with a snake tail who is rapidly accelerating by murdering pigeons with divine wrath).

Although the strategy really falls flat due to initiative. All it takes to ruin the chain is to have the pigeons roll higher than the previous group to ruin it. I supposed they could all be readied to run away when you approach within 5', but I think you would reach the point where you are functionally invisible due to how few frames you are present in the vision.

[AvatarVecna]

Admittedly, it is highly dependent on unlikely items, but it isn't uncalled-for. Makes me feel dirty just thinking about it :smalltongue:

Also, it is like the commoner rail gun in that it only works due to the abstraction of the game. Realistically, you will reach a maximum speed where the pigeons can't fly away fast enough to accelerate you further (yes, I bring up realism when you are talking about turning into a six-armed demon with a snake tail who is rapidly accelerating by murdering pigeons with divine wrath).

Although the strategy really falls flat due to initiative. All it takes to ruin the chain is to have the pigeons roll higher than the previous group to ruin it. I supposed they could all be readied to run away when you approach within 5', but I think you would reach the point where you are functionally invisible due to how few frames you are present in the vision.

Oh definitely; the entire situation is a ridiculously implausible situation where giving a Paladin a 9th level scroll is the least-questionable part of the combo. The point of the whole thing, much like the aforementioned commoner railgun, is just pointing out the weirdness RAW can accomplish. Obviously, reality like "how long the paladin is visible" would get in the way of this, but the rules are there to simulate reality; using ridiculous combos to point out points where it fails to simulate reality well just shows how much we love this system...and how far we have to go to push it to its limits. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: BTW, I made a thread for keeping track of non-TO 5e records, if you're interested in contributing.

[ClintACK]

Replace the pigeons with "Animated Objects" in clusters along the side of the Imperial Highway and you can send have your infinitely-fast Mariith-Express. (Of course, Teleportation Circle does the same thing much more easily.)

Edit: Until rebels/bandits smash a section of Animated Objects making the messengers stop in their ambush location.

[AvatarVecna]

Replace the pigeons with "Animated Objects" in clusters along the side of the Imperial Highway and you can send have your infinitely-fast Mariith-Express. (Of course, Teleportation Circle does the same thing much more easily.)

Edit: Until rebels/bandits smash a section of Animated Objects making the messengers stop in their ambush location.

Teleportation Circle is teleportation; it's reasonable that magic breaks the bounds of reality, but achieving this reality-breaking speed with regular movement (normally limited to a certain speed) is the point.

Also, bandits attempting to sabotage the messenger system are just going to end up with a CR 16 creature sporting the class features of a Vengeance Paladin 16+; not exactly the best plan in existence.

[ClintACK]

If they're rebels who actually have a chance of overthrowing an Empire that can use a 16th level Paladin to do the job of a Sending spell... they ought to be able to muster up an ambush that can take him out, once they've got him alone.

But, yeah. Breaking reality is the point.

[Ruslan]

Speed is theoretically infinite, provided you have infinite groups of pigeons.
For extra credit, this really should have been "infinite groups of spherical pigeons in frictionless vacuum".

[Inglorin]

Yeah, thread derailment. I HATE the railroad ;-)



No, what you need is a Scroll of Shapechange given to a Vengeance Paladin ... with all the pigeons readying an action to Dash away if the Paladin moves into the space the group of pigeons is surrounding.


Is the readied Dash action really the way to go? Isn't it still the same turn of the original pigeon, that started the chain?

[AvatarVecna]

For extra credit, this really should have been "infinite groups of spherical pigeons in frictionless vacuum".

:biggrin:


Yeah, thread derailment. I HATE the railroad ;-)



Is the readied Dash action really the way to go? Isn't it still the same turn of the original pigeon, that started the chain?

No, it's the Paladin's turn; having the pigeons all readying actions to fly away should the paladin move into the center of their hollow pigeon-sphere is the way to go. With how many pigeons are involved in this to let you move even half your move (some 30-ish pigeons or so), making sure that their initiatives all line up properly would be an even bigger nightmare than getting them spatially positioned correctly in the first place. Much better to base it on Readied Actions.

[RickAllison]

:biggrin:



No, it's the Paladin's turn; having the pigeons all readying actions to fly away should the paladin move into the center of their hollow pigeon-sphere is the way to go. With how many pigeons are involved in this to let you move even half your move (some 30-ish pigeons or so), making sure that their initiatives all line up properly would be an even bigger nightmare than getting them spatially positioned correctly in the first place. Much better to base it on Readied Actions.

Do note Mariliths only get one reaction per turn, not an unlimited amount of them. Thus, you have to line up initiatives to get it to work, as readied actions will trigger on a turn where the reaction has already been used.

[AvatarVecna]

Do note Mariliths only get one reaction per turn, not an unlimited amount of them. Thus, you have to line up initiatives to get it to work, as readied actions will trigger on a turn where the reaction has already been used.

Hrm...this makes a good point, and means we'd have to arrange for all the pigeons to have the appropriate initiatives. We'd have to determine which 20 of the infinite pigeons had the highest initiatives (by virtue of infinite "roll-off to determine result of a tie"s), and have them make the first group, then the next 20 highest make up the second group, and so on. It would take a lot of set-up time, but it's not like the set-up was simple before anyway.