Optimize this vehicle 1: Iceberg from Frostburn

[daremetoidareyo]

Optimize this vehicle!

Here's the stats:
Colossal vehicle; Profession (sailor) –20; Spd 5 ft. (nautical clumsy); Overall hp 900 (hardness 8); Overall AC –6; Section hp 50 (hardness 8); Section AC 3; Ram 20d6+1d6 cold; Space 100 ft.; Height 200 ft.; Cargo 1,000 tons; Cost —.
An iceberg is a massive chuck of freshwater ice that has broken free of a glacier and fallen into the sea. These towering behemoths reach as high as 200 feet or more in height above the waterline (with usually another 800 feet or more hidden below the surface). An iceberg moves with the current and is impossible to control without some sort of sail, engine, or other force. For the specific terrain features of an iceberg, see Iceberg Terrain, page 25.

Minimum number of class levels to make an iceberg in 1 week, 1 day, minutes?

What can we do with the profession sailor check (it's only -20) that would be pretty ridiculous? Can this skill optimization be paired with the minimum class levels to make an iceberg?

Vehicle augments RAW?

[Jormengand]

Cost - means that it can be made instantly, much like quarterstaves and clubs, so you can just conjure up random icebergs out of nowhere.

The main feature of the iceberg is its utterly lethal ram damage, but honestly being able to craft an iceberg as a free action has all sorts of applications: you can flood entire cities as the iceberg rapidly melts, or crush a bridge under the weight of ice, or if you can fly (or jump at least 10 feet, which is a DC 40 jump check - shouldn't be THAT hard), bombard the poor fools below you with 285980d6 points of falling damage, plus up to another 20d6 for distance. (I did some vague density calculations with the lowest possible density of ice).

Let's just check that out a moment. That's a practical minimum of about three hundred thousand points of damage. That means you can break through six hundred twenty-five feet of adamantine wall (SBG 35), a little under an eighth of a mile, on a fairly low die roll. With one shot. Obdurium, the hardest material in there, you can break through about a thirteenth of a mile of the stuff.

The Earth's volume is about 1083210000000 Km^3, or 38253200000000000000000 ft^3. The earth is made of a lot of things, but I'm going to say it averages out to about unworked stone. A single ss of stone wall is actually enough stone to have a five foot thickness around the perimiter of a 20 ft by 20 ft by 10 ft room, meaning that the area of it is (4(20*10)+2(20*20))*5=8000 cubic feet, meaning that 8000 ft^3 = 900 hit points, meaning the earth has 4303485000000000000000000 hit points. Each attack you inflict deals 285980*3.5 damage (hardness is just going to get rounded out of the calculation, because it only takes 8 damage off each attack), meaning it will take 4299490000000000 attacks to take out the whole Earth. But, whatever, you can craft as many icebergs as you like for free...

The fact that the iceberg moves with the current means that if enemies are downstream of you, it doesn't matter if you can't fly: craft some icebergs and watch them float lazily down the river towards the enemy, dealing their fairly extreme ram damage when they hit.

Also, who needs Create Water when you can create a gigantic 1000-foot tall pillar of ice?

[Job]

Craft check are made by the week or day, not instantly. Additionally crafting is not a free action, it does not require any action at all. With all that you can only make one at a time.

On top of that, this is a vehicle, and IIRC crafting them has another set of rules that supersedes crafting as presented in the SRD.

Plus you need raw materials, ice in this case. If you're seriously suggesting you can conjure ice out of nothing with a craft check by """RAW""" you've introduced several other ridiculous notions into the game space that completely defeats the point of optimizing and iceberg in the first place.

[Jormengand]

Craft check are made by the week or day, not instantly. Additionally crafting is not a free action, it does not require any action at all. With all that you can only make one at a time.

On top of that, this is a vehicle, and IIRC crafting them has another set of rules that supersedes crafting as presented in the SRD.

Plus you need raw materials, ice in this case. If you're seriously suggesting you can conjure ice out of nothing with a craft check by """RAW""" you've introduced several other ridiculous notions into the game space that completely defeats the point of optimizing and iceberg in the first place.

Right, except all of that is wrong. Except maybe the vehicle crafting rules things. I didn't look too carefully at that, but I do know all of the standard objections to the infinite quarterstaves trick, and more importantly, why they're all wrong. Oh, and yeah, I'm using the expression "Free action" a little liberally, but it amounts to the same thing.

If you get at least double the amount you need to finish it exactly in a week - that is, at least double zero - then you do it in half as much time - that is, half a week. That's also true of other multiples "(If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.)". So if you get at least three times the amount you need - that is, at least three zeros, which is zero - you do it in a third of a week. Now, if you get at least infinity times zero - which is still zero - then you create it in 1/infinity of the time. I'm not sure that actually has a value (certainly the limit of 1/X as X->infinity is 0), but that doesn't matter, because we can say we'll do it in 1/1593153029572358295295428905325230 of a week instead; it's pretty immaterial whether we're using up some tiny amount of our turn (which, I'll admit, probably has to waste the entire turn, but oh well?) or none of it.

Next, the raw materials. You require, and I quote, "one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials." You need not actually have any raw materials, only one third of the item's price. What is that? Oh, yeah, zero.

Finally, the triple-inverted-comma RAW isn't necessary. If you go through the Optimise This Feat threads, you'll see that my other optimisations include convincing a crowd that someone is bad even if the crowd can't see or hear you, and nailing the earth to the sun through some confusing wording involving sharing your target's space. Messing with the RAW is what we do in these threads. If you don't like RAW abuse, This Is Not The Droid You Are Looking For.

[daremetoidareyo]

I personally prefer my optimization to have a chance of convincing a real DM, but I do feel like i learn something about how to read rules, laws, regulations, and legislation with a more critical eye every time jormengand wipes their brain against rules text.

[Job]

Right, except all of that is wrong. Except maybe the vehicle crafting rules things. I didn't look too carefully at that,

Yes, the part that defeats your argument, just that part.


but oh well?

That works for me, now do you want to make the check by the day or by the week?


Next, the raw materials. You require, and I quote, "one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials." You need not actually have any raw materials, only one third of the item's price. What is that? Oh, yeah, zero.

I disagree, the 'for' conveys the requirement to the material. (I.E you require 0 gp for the needed 30,000 lbs of ice)


Messing with the RAW is what we do in these threads. If you don't like RAW abuse, This Is Not The Droid You Are Looking For.

I'm fine with rules abuse,

Edit: I'm getting a somewhat passive aggressive vibe from the response, and to be fair i was being somewhat flippant in dropping quotes around RAW. I'm generally of the opinion that RAW does not exist as it's often used in these conversations. So i'm rather disinclined to declare any reading authoritatively RAW. But i digress,

In any case I did not mean to offend and will gladly discuss the rules.

[Jormengand]

To be fair, the vehicle crafting rules - which I can't actually find - are likely from 3.0's Arms and Equipment Guide, meaning that the 3.5 craft skill overrules them.

I'll make the check by the week, but I'll finish in an infinitesimal fraction of one.

Ah, but you only have to pay for the cost of the materials, not the materials themselves. The cost of the materials is 0.

TBH, messing with RAW is kinda what we do in these threads. Apart from "Oh lookit, this thing is free and has a lot of ram damage" there's not much you can do with the damn thing apart from RAW abuse.


I personally prefer my optimization to have a chance of convincing a real DM, but I do feel like i learn something about how to read rules, laws, regulations, and legislation with a more critical eye every time jormengand wipes their brain against rules text.

Pfft, says you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20443743&postcount=7).

[Ashtagon]

Actually, the rules for crafting fail utterly for icebergs and quarterstaffs and anything else with a price of "—". Why? Because that is NOT a price of "0 gp". It is a price of "—". And in 3e, null value is not the same as zero.

If you want one of those items, you simply find it in appropriate terrain. You can't "Craft" it.

That aside, where on earth are you getting that insane ram damage from?

[Job]

To be fair, the vehicle crafting rules - which I can't actually find - are likely from 3.0's Arms and Equipment Guide, meaning that the 3.5 craft skill overrules them.

Dubious, It may still apply, or even simply wiped out the ability to craft them altogether.


I'll make the check by the week, but I'll finish in an infinitesimal fraction of one.

Yes, you worked for a week, and completed the iceberg in no time at all.


, but you only have to pay for the cost of the materials, not the materials themselves. The cost of the materials is 0.

What costs are you paying if not for the materials? Is there and abstract 'cost' entity to which we appeal here?

[Troacctid]

TBH, messing with RAW is kinda what we do in these threads.
It's what you do in these threads, anyway.

The Craft skill is pretty clear that you need raw materials to craft things. In the case of icebergs, the raw materials don't cost anything because it's just a big hunk of naturally-occurring ice. This means you can craft it into an iceberg in a negligible amount of time because, y'know, it's already an iceberg, and without paying any money because who's charging you, the Rimefire Eidolon's Guild? Pssh.

[Jormengand]

Actually, the rules for crafting fail utterly for icebergs and quarterstaffs and anything else with a price of "—". Why? Because that is NOT a price of "0 gp". It is a price of "—". And in 3e, null value is not the same as zero.

If you want one of those items, you simply find it in appropriate terrain. You can't "Craft" it.

Yes you can. You simply put the null value into silver pieces - which turns it from "No money at all" into "zero silver pieces" and then craft from there.


That aside, where on earth are you getting that insane ram damage from?

The ram damage is listed on the vehicle; the falling damage is due to its large weight, and only damage from height is capped, not damage from weight.


Dubious, It may still apply, or even simply wiped out the ability to craft them altogether.

If we can't craft or create or otherwise acquire this thing, there's no point even talking about it in the first instance.


Yes, you worked for a week, and completed the iceberg in no time at all.

No, I completed the task of working on the iceberg in no time at all, meaning I crafted for no time at all.


What costs are you paying if not for the materials? Is there and abstract 'cost' entity to which we appeal here?

The great mystical being known only as Dee Em? Look, the rules don't make sense.

[Ashtagon]

Yes you can. You simply put the null value into silver pieces - which turns it from "No money at all" into "zero silver pieces" and then craft from there.

That assumes that null value can be converted to zero. Based on the rules readings of other notable areas in which null values exist (most notably ability scores), that is not a conversion that can happen. Null is quite clearly not zero, nor even convertible to zero.



The ram damage is listed on the vehicle; the falling damage is due to its large weight, and only damage from height is capped, not damage from weight.


Rules Compendium (p52) caps this damage at 20d6 for combined weight-based plus distance-based damage.

(Yes, I know the SRD and PHB don't cap this damage, but RC supersedes them)

[Rizban]

I'm inclined to agree with Jormengand on this one regarding his interpretation of the crafting system.

Is this clearly "No Sane DM" territory? Absolutely.
Is it RAW? It certainly appears to be so.

Though, honestly, I'm far less interested in icebergs than I am in skybergs, the entry listed immediately under icebergs in Frostburn. Sure, they don't fall for massive damage, but they're still hilarious in their own way.


Edit

That assumes that null value can be converted to zero. Based on the rules readings of other notable areas in which null values exist (most notably ability scores), that is not a conversion that can happen. Null is quite clearly not zero, nor even convertible to zero.By that interpretation, it is impossible to craft a club, quarterstaff, or sling. If there's no shop around to buy one for "null" gp, you're out of luck... For that matter, how do you make a purchase for null gp? It isn't zero, so you can't give the shop keep 0 gp. Since the rules don't address it, it now requires DM fiat to purchase any of those items...


Rules Compendium (p52) caps this damage at 20d6 for combined weight-based plus distance-based damage.

(Yes, I know the SRD and PHB don't cap this damage, but RC supersedes them)If you want to get hard RAW, Rules Compendium is not a primary source and doesn't have the authority to grant itself primary source status.

[Tvtyrant]

Yes you can. You simply put the null value into silver pieces - which turns it from "No money at all" into "zero silver pieces" and then craft from there.


No, there is no rule allowing you to turn an undefined amount into 0. Every time you multiply by the cost you multiply by undefined, so it takes an undefined amount of time to craft (aka you can't). Inferring steps is not RAW, and the rules do not support you.

[Ashtagon]

regarding items with null cost, I generally say they are essentially free for the taking in any area where they would naturally exist (clubs and quarterstaffs can be trivially made from a tree branch, slings can be trivially made from any old scrap of cloth, etc.) Such trivial creations are simply below the resolution of the crafting rules, since no skill is involved.

You ask how do you buy something with no value. I ask why would a shopkeeper sell something with no value.


If you want to get hard RAW, Rules Compendium is not a primary source and doesn't have the authority to grant itself primary source status.

iirc, WotC said that more recently produced books supersede older books. I'm not sure what kinds as more primary a source than the game publisher itself.

[Troacctid]

I'm inclined to agree with Jormengand on this one regarding his interpretation of the crafting system.

Is this clearly "No Sane DM" territory? Absolutely.
Is it RAW? It certainly appears to be so.
Raw materials appearing out of nowhere is not RAW, but instantaneous crafting time is. In this case there is simply no difference between the raw materials and the finished product.


If you want to get hard RAW, Rules Compendium is not a primary source and doesn't have the authority to grant itself primary source status.
Every book is the primary source for its own content.

[Rizban]

regarding items with null cost, I generally say they are essentially free for the taking in any area where they would naturally exist (clubs and quarterstaffs can be trivially made from a tree branch, slings can be trivially made from any old scrap of cloth, etc.) Such trivial creations are simply below the resolution of the crafting rules, since no skill is involved.

You ask how do you buy something with no value. I ask why would a shopkeeper sell something with no value.Ah, but that's all a DM ruling, not RAW. If you're going to base your argument on the basis of RAW, you can't then immediately turn around and ignore the same RAW just because it's inconvenient and maintain the integrity of your argument. Either it is or it isn't, not both.

Because, in Step 10 on PHB p6, you are specifically instructed to "buy" your starting gear. It's listed on the gear list, so the Semi-Mythical Starting Gear EmporiumTM therefore stocks it. :smalltongue:

All presented rules in all sources are for purchasing gear, both mundane and magical, from a merchant of some sort, with the exceptions of Loot and Crafting. Since you've eliminated crafting as an option, and the same interpretation rules out purchasing, we're left with DM fiat or Loot, which is also DM fiat.

((As something of an archaic weapons buff in real life, I can say from experience that a random branch does not a quarterstaff make, nor is a sling trivially made from a random scrap of cloth. However, that has no bearing on a RAW discussion.))


iirc, WotC said that more recently produced books supersede older books. I'm not sure what kinds as more primary a source than the game publisher itself.Perhaps, but forum posts and blurbs on news announcements also aren't rules and therefore cannot be RAW...

[Troacctid]

Ah, but that's all a DM ruling, not RAW. If you're going to base your argument on the basis of RAW, you can't then immediately turn around and ignore the same RAW just because it's inconvenient and maintain the integrity of your argument. Either it is or it isn't, not both.

Because, in Step 10 on PHB p6, you are specifically instructed to "buy" your starting gear. It's listed on the gear list, so the Semi-Mythical Starting Gear EmporiumTM therefore stocks it. :smalltongue:

All presented rules in all sources are for purchasing gear, both mundane and magical, from a merchant of some sort, with the exceptions of Loot and Crafting. Since you've eliminated crafting as an option, and the same interpretation rules out purchasing, we're left with DM fiat or Loot, which is also DM fiat.

I think you're misinformed on this point.


Note that buying beginning equipment this way is an abstraction. Your character doesn’t walk into a store with handfuls of gold and buy every item one by one. Rather, these items may have come the character’s way as gifts from family, equipment from patrons, gear granted during military service, swag gained through duplicity, and so on.

[Rizban]

Every book is the primary source for its own content.

I counter with the following.


Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct.

[snip]

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
involves book and topic precedence. The Player's
Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing
the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class
descriptions. If you find something on one of those
topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the
Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's
Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is
the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the
primary source for topics such as magic item
descriptions, special material construction rules, and so
on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for
monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural,
extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

Combined with this:


Both CAr and PG include a feat named Innate Spell, but
the prerequisites and uses per day differ. Which version is
correct?
Unless stated otherwise, any time that a rule appears in two
different sourcebooks (other than the PH, DMG, and MM), the
most current sourcebook is considered correct and all previous
sources are superseded. A book’s credits page lists its
publication date (typically near the bottom of the page).
In this case, CAr (published in November 2004) supersedes
PG (published in March 2004), and thus its version of Innate
Spell should be considered the official version.

Emphasis added.

Officially, the Rules Compendium cannot supersede the rules as given in the PHB, DMG, or MM.

Furthermore, if we are going to go with most recent books published, the revised and updated 3.5 Premium PHB (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/premium-dungeons-dragons-35-players-handbook-with-errata-wizards-rpg-team/1111943726), DMG, and MM with all updates and errata included supersede the Rules Compendium on both Primary Source authority and on most recent rules published. These books rescind more than a few rulings in the Rules Compendium by not including any of its rulings that were not already published elsewhere.


I think you're misinformed on this point.
You seem to have missed that I was making a joke. Hence the use of :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

I counter with the following.



Combined with this:



Emphasis added.

Officially, the Rules Compendium cannot supersede the rules as given in the PHB, DMG, or MM.
The Rules Compendium says in the introduction that it is intended to supersede all preexisting books, with the core books explicitly included in this category. Since it is the primary source for itself, well, there you go. Even if it weren't, I'm pretty sure there is no rule in the core books that contradicts RC's ability to make this claim.

Exceptions taking precedence over general rules is one of the foundations of the system. Lose that and the whole system falls apart. "I don't care what Complete Divine says about your favored soul, the core rules are the primary source, and they say that all divine casters must prepare their spells!" "No, you can't put ranks into Autohypnosis, the Player's Handbook is very clear on what skills exist in the game, and Autohypnosis is not one of them!" Etc.


Furthermore, if we are going to go with most recent books published, the revised and updated 3.5 Premium PHB (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/premium-dungeons-dragons-35-players-handbook-with-errata-wizards-rpg-team/1111943726), DMG, and MM with all updates and errata included supersede the Rules Compendium on both Primary Source authority and on most recent rules published. These books rescind more than a few rulings in the Rules Compendium by not including any of its rulings that were not already published elsewhere.
I checked the Premium DMG, and it lists its original publication date as 2003 on the copyright page. This predates the Rules Compendium by about four years.

[Jormengand]

Shall we go with the interpretation that it is in fact possible to get your hands on one of these things?

Also, with the fall damage, it doesn't really matter, because you can just jump 10 feet above someone and crush them under a hail of icebergs.

[Rizban]

Shall we go with the interpretation that it is in fact possible to get your hands on one of these things?

Also, with the fall damage, it doesn't really matter, because you can just jump 10 feet above someone and crush them under a hail of icebergs.

Yay for replicating a 9th-level spell (namely iceberg, Frostburn p101) with a Craft check. :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

Shall we go with the interpretation that it is in fact possible to get your hands on one of these things?
Well, sure, but not by creating them out of thin air with a Craft check, because that's just not how crafting works in the rules. You need raw materials.

[Rizban]

Well, sure, but not by creating them out of thin air with a Craft check, because that's just not how crafting works in the rules. You need raw materials.So, I'm confused. Can we or can we not craft them? Can we or can we not buy the raw materials? I'm just not sure I'm understanding your position.


Anyway, can we all just drop digression into crafting and get back to the discussion about optimizing actually having the iceberg?
Let's assume we have one iceberg and only one, and it's currently floating in the ocean then go from there.

[Jormengand]

Well, sure, but not by creating them out of thin air with a Craft check, because that's just not how crafting works in the rules. You need raw materials.

No, you need money to pay for raw materials, equal to 1/3 the item's cost.

[Job]

No, I completed the task of working on the iceberg in no time at all, meaning I crafted for no time at all.

Well, I'm not sure how you are able to conclude that. If we want to assume that 'the task' and "represents a week's worth of work" are equivalent in this case, why not just assume that the cost of raw materials actually refers to the purchase of raw materials?

Or selective readings of the crafting sections don't seem to be based on consistency, just what we want.

It might be more fair to say the rules are ambiguous with regards to 0 cost items.

[Job]

"Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials."

So you need to aquire materials, and you do this via the crafting process by paying he needed amount.

If payment is in involved in this context. It would be to an entity with the needed materials, no?

[Troacctid]

No, you need money to pay for raw materials, equal to 1/3 the item's cost.

If I may direct you to the crafting rules:


To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.

Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the DC from the table below.
Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.


You're looking at the rules for determining how much time and money it takes to craft an item. You are correct that you have to pay 0 gp. Icebergs are just floating around in the Frostfell, breaking off glaciers, free for the taking. However, you're overlooking that these calculations are only used to determine the monetary cost of the raw materials you need. You still need to actually have raw materials to work. It just so happens that in this case, it doesn't cost you any money to obtain those raw materials.

[Jormengand]

You still need to actually have raw materials to work. It just so happens that in this case, it doesn't cost you any money to obtain those raw materials.

Really? Could you source that, please?

[Troacctid]

Really? Could you source that, please?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

The DC, your check results, and the price of the item determine how long it takes to make a particular item. The item’s finished price also determines the cost of raw materials.

If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.
Crafting requires raw materials, and the raw materials cost money. The cost of crafting is explicitly to pay for raw materials that the item is crafted from.

[daremetoidareyo]

Here is a list of spells that are in contention as being possible to help optimize this vehicle:

Disguise Ship (StW) Sorc/Wiz 4: shrink the appearance of your iceberg so that you can crash them from slightly more afar.

Column of Ice (FB) Druid 3/Sorc/Wiz 4: permanent 10' radius + 5ft per level height...column of ice. How many castings does a 6th level druid need?

Flash-freeze (FB) Druid 2: Gold standard RAW abuse here.

Freeze (SpC) Druid 6: 5 ft. coat of ice encapsulates a creature. What is a friendly colossal creature that presents the most surface area? Cuz you might be able to harness enough ice off a single casting. Maybe: A hydra that you're immune to? Just keep lobbing off heads until you get enough to make a 200 foot high wall of ice?

Frostfell (FB) Druid 8/sorc/wiz9: Self explanatory. But 9ths is too late to be messing around with icebergs.

Jhanifer's Deliquescence (Waterdeep)get it?) Sorc/wiz 4
Melts ice to cold water, remains that way until dispelled, whereafter it has a different shape...

Move Snow and Ice (FB) Druid/sorc/wiz 6: pretty direct.

Crack ice (FB) sorc/wiz 3: you can make an iceberg out of an icesheet if you are located in the right place.


========

Is there a way to mess with those shadow classes that make illusions super real? Can I just cast an illusion of an iceberg that people believe does a buttload of damage?

=======

Similar to crack ice, if you are located on an ice sheet, can you make a disable device check on the ice-sheet to break off an iceberg?

=======

Are there any ice generating magic items?




Pfft, says you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20443743&postcount=7).

I learned from watching you.

[Rizban]

@Troacctid Referring to your own quote.


3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.Technically speaking, this line right here disproves your position. You don't actually need to have any raw materials in your possession or available to you. You just have to "Pay for the cost of raw materials."

For crafting an item with a null cost, assuming we go with the (in my opinion somewhat odd) interpretation that an item cost of "—" is not equal to 0, we can still pay (1/3 * —) sp for raw materials. Whether we pay 0 sp or — sp, we've paid the cost. Having satisfied that step, we can now move to step 4, regardless of if we actually have any raw materials on hand.

Is this interpretation still absurd? Yes, it is. It's also how the rules are written...



Is there a way to mess with those shadow classes that make illusions super real? Can I just cast an illusion of an iceberg that people believe does a buttload of damage?Theoretically, yes, but that's optimizing illusions rather than optimizing an iceberg. Not really the same thing.


Similar to crack ice, if you are located on an ice sheet, can you make a disable device check on the ice-sheet to break off an iceberg?I don't think that would work, since the ice sheet isn't a device or trap.

[Job]

Is this interpretation still absurd? Yes, it is.

Hence the advocacy for an interpretation that isn't absurd.

Also if you can't buy the material for any cost, then you can't rightly be said to have payed for it can you?

[Troacctid]

@Troacctid Referring to your own quote.

Technically speaking, this line right here disproves your position. You don't actually need to have any raw materials in your possession or available to you. You just have to "Pay for the cost of raw materials."
Check the header above that list again—those steps are used to determine the required a. time and b. money in order to craft something. Raw materials are outside the scope of that particular rule, and their availability is governed by a different rule, found in Chapter 7 of the Player's Handbook.

If you want to buy something not described in this chapter, the general rule is that you can buy anything that costs as much as 3,000 gp. Buying a more expensive item, such as a +2 longsword, means either going to a big city where rare things are for sale, making a special deal with someone who makes or can provide the item, or paying a premium price to a merchant who makes a special effort to get you what you want.

Depending on where in the fantasy world the character is, it might be possible to buy more expensive items without a problem, or it might be more difficult to do so. In a small town, for example, it’s practically impossible to find someone who can make a suit of full plate armor. The DM determines what is and is not available depending on how he or she runs the world and where the characters are in it.

[Rizban]

Hence the advocacy for an interpretation that isn't absurd.

Also if you can't buy the material for any cost, then you can't rightly be said to have payed for it can you?I agree with you about it being nutsy. Would I allow this in a game I DM? Absolutely not.

But arguing that something is absurd is completely different from arguing that something is RAW. In this instance, I think both conclusions are accurate. If you want to say, "Don't do this, because it's not realistic or it's stupid," then that's fine. Just don't say, "That's not RAW," because you don't like the way the rules are written. If you're the DM, you're free to rule anything in any way you want. Heck, you don't even need the rulebooks at all!

If we do go with your interpretation, as I've already pointed out, you're outlawing access to anything with a null price. If it can't be crafted and can't be purchased, then it can't exist in the game without DM fiat. Clubs, quarterstaves, and slings become DM fiat only items. Since those are clearly available in the PHB and meant for player use without the need for a DM to explicitly grant it, and there's no indication that they're DM only territory, we have to conclude that this is not what the rules mean.


Check the header above that list again—those steps are used to determine the required a. time and b. money in order to craft something. Raw materials are outside the scope of that particular rule, and their availability is governed by a different rule, found in Chapter 7 of the Player's Handbook.
If you want to buy something not described in this chapter, the general rule is that you can buy anything that costs as much as 3,000 gp. Buying a more expensive item, such as a +2 longsword, means either going to a big city where rare things are for sale, making a special deal with someone who makes or can provide the item, or paying a premium price to a merchant who makes a special effort to get you what you want.

Depending on where in the fantasy world the character is, it might be possible to buy more expensive items without a problem, or it might be more difficult to do so. In a small town, for example, it’s practically impossible to find someone who can make a suit of full plate armor. The DM determines what is and is not available depending on how he or she runs the world and where the characters are in it.So, once again, applying this rule to crafting means that it is simply impossible to use the Craft skill or any kind of Item Creation feat in any regard short of DM fiat. By saying "raw materials" is not described in that chapter and has a variable price, you're relegating it to a position outside the jurisdiction of the rules entirely. We're discarding the entire section on crafting and saying, "Okay, this is what it says... but..."

My thought is that "raw materials" is never explicitly counted as a particular "item" as the rules define an item. "Raw materials" is an intentionally abstract concept that you never actually have as an item in your inventory. The process goes Have Money -> Make a Payment -> Do Work -> Have Item. You aren't even necessarily required to make a purchase from a merchant, because you're never actually buying a raw materials item. You just have to pay the gold as part of the process. You technically also don't ever have an "unfinished item" in your inventory either. The finished item just sort of appears once you've made the appropriate number of successful checks.

If we look at the item creation feats, they further specify that you literally just "use up" the raw materials involved. The item isn't actually made from the raw materials, they're just used up in the process. Though it's not strictly RAW, we can somewhat reasonably assume that the intention was that the magic item creation rules worked the same as the mundane item creation rules in this regard. You pay the gold, the abstract "raw materials" were used up, and then you got your item. The process seems to be the same in both cases, even if the specific checks made along the way are different.

[Troacctid]

So, once again, applying this rule to crafting means that it is simply impossible to use the Craft skill or any kind of Item Creation feat in any regard short of DM fiat. By saying "raw materials" is not described in that chapter and has a variable price, you're relegating it to a position outside the jurisdiction of the rules entirely. We're discarding the entire section on crafting and saying, "Okay, this is what it says... but..."

My thought is that "raw materials" is never explicitly counted as a particular "item" as the rules define an item. "Raw materials" is an intentionally abstract concept that you never actually have as an item in your inventory. The process goes Have Money -> Make a Payment -> Do Work -> Have Item. You aren't even necessarily required to make a purchase from a merchant, because you're never actually buying a raw materials item. You just have to pay the gold as part of the process. You technically also don't ever have an "unfinished item" in your inventory either. The finished item just sort of appears once you've made the appropriate number of successful checks.
That's because it is an abstraction. You're assumed to be able to get your hands on the raw materials (assuming they're within the gp limits of the area you're in) without any problems. Characterizing this as a DM fiat issue would be ignoring the concrete, non-fiat-dependent rules for item availability that are right there in the rules—kind of like if you said "Tracking individual spell components is annoying, but most DMs will let you ignore spell components as long as you have a component pouch." Yes, it's technically true that most DMs will allow that, but it glosses over the fact that that's also the actual rule for how spell components actually work.


If we look at the item creation feats, they further specify that you literally just "use up" the raw materials involved. The item isn't actually made from the raw materials, they're just used up in the process. Though it's not strictly RAW, we can somewhat reasonably assume that the intention was that the magic item creation rules worked the same as the mundane item creation rules in this regard. You pay the gold, the abstract "raw materials" were used up, and then you got your item. The process seems to be the same in both cases, even if the specific checks made along the way are different.
Oh, magic items are a whole different ball game. Completely separate set of rules. No transparency between them whatsoever. Not the same at all. We can ignore them for the purposes of this discussion.

[Ashtagon]

Shall we go with the interpretation that it is in fact possible to get your hands on one of these things?

Also, with the fall damage, it doesn't really matter, because you can just jump 10 feet above someone and crush them under a hail of icebergs.

I go with the interpretation that they are there for the finding in any area where icebergs naturally occur.

[Jormengand]

Crafting requires raw materials, and the raw materials cost money. The cost of crafting is explicitly to pay for raw materials that the item is crafted from.

Uhm, exactly? The cost, zero, is the cost of the raw materials that the item is crafted from. You don't need to go and find some ice, only pay 0 gold pieces for some.


Column of Ice (FB) Druid 3/Sorc/Wiz 4: permanent 10' radius + 5ft per level height...column of ice. How many castings does a 6th level druid need?

Too many. The volume of the iceberg is 900000 ft^3, whereas the spell makes about 9000, meaning you need a hundred castings to get something you could have made for nothing, in no time.

[Necrov]

Gee. I came here to find an interesting discussion on the optimization of piloting an iceberg.

I found a rather obvious discussion about how the crafting formulas break when you feed "-" into them.

...But I'd really like to know how I can be an Iceberg pirate. So, could we get back to that?

[Jormengand]

Gee. I came here to find an interesting discussion on the optimization of piloting an iceberg.

I found a rather obvious discussion about how the crafting formulas break when you feed "-" into them.

...But I'd really like to know how I can be an Iceberg pirate. So, could we get back to that?

Point iceberg at enemy. Ram enemy for 20d6+1d6 cold damage. Profit. Your maneuverability and speed are both awful, so you mainly have to rely on trapping an enemy somewhere that they can't help but smash into the iceberg.

[Tvtyrant]

Gee. I came here to find an interesting discussion on the optimization of piloting an iceberg.

I found a rather obvious discussion about how the crafting formulas break when you feed "-" into them.

...But I'd really like to know how I can be an Iceberg pirate. So, could we get back to that?

Well first you will want to find a way to keep it from melting, like permanent cold Wall of Fires. Then you can carve a large fortress into it, with Ice Shape or Disintegrate.

Once you have a permanent ice ship you go for ships that cannot run, ie ones in harbors. Normally pirates are too scared to do this, but you have an entire ice city to attack with!

[Necrov]

Well first you will want to find a way to keep it from melting, like permanent cold Wall of Fires. Then you can carve a large fortress into it, with Ice Shape or Disintegrate.

Once you have a permanent ice ship you go for ships that cannot run, ie ones in harbors. Normally pirates are too scared to do this, but you have an entire ice city to attack with!

Floating Pirate Ice City you say? Gotta add me some ballista to that. Do damage as we close range.

What about propulsion? I'm not sure sails are going to do the job on this baby.

[daremetoidareyo]

flash freeze (FB )+ sea legs from shining south

All earth, stone, and water in the spell's area is drained of heat. Earth, mud, and stone become everfrost and water freezes. You affect a 10-foot-square area to a depth of 1 foot. Magical, enchanted, dressed, or worked stone cannot be affected. Earth, stone, or water creatures are not affected. This spell can be used to create small icebergs in large bodies of water. These icebergs float, but are extremely slippery and unstable, requiring a DC 15 Balance check per round to stay on the iceberg. Icebergs may be propelled through the water by the current, paddling, or other means.

No stats for small icebergs, but perhaps that 20d6 ram damage scales down to small size?
so if you take this chart and put 20d6 in for spear and scale down in equal proportions...
Colossal=20d6; Gargantuan 15d6; huge 10d6, Large 5d8, medium 5d6, small 5d4

You can ram for 5d4 damage + 1d4(?) cold with a small iceberg summoned using the 2nd level druid spell flash freeze...

[Tvtyrant]

Floating Pirate Ice City you say? Gotta add me some ballista to that. Do damage as we close range.

What about propulsion? I'm not sure sails are going to do the job on this baby.

Propulsion depends on your level of cheese. If you go all out just use a few scrolls of polymorph any object on some water to make permanent water elementals to push it for you. Super cheap money wise, and it works well.

If you have a lot of money, look at stronghold builders guide for moving it via enchantment, or get a coldfrost engine from Frostburn to push it.

[Ashtagon]

Before you go raiding harbours with this, bear in mind its dimensions. It's a 100 foot square on the surface, but it's "deck" is 200 feet above sea level, making ship-to-ship boarding assaults impractical, and it has a draft of 800 feet, which means it's not getting anywhere near a coast, let alone an actual harbour.

To give you an idea, this map (link (http://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/dry-world-png.57246/)) shows the 100-metre (330 feet, give or take) depth line. Your iceberg needs a depth of twice that to avoid being grounded. Most harbours will ground your iceberg from several miles out to sea, at best.

[Tvtyrant]

Before you go raiding harbours with this, bear in mind its dimensions. It's a 100 foot square on the surface, but it's "deck" is 200 feet above sea level, making ship-to-ship boarding assaults impractical, and it has a draft of 800 feet, which means it's not getting anywhere near a coast, let alone an actual harbour.

To give you an idea, this map (link (http://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/dry-world-png.57246/)) shows the 100-metre (330 feet, give or take) depth line. Your iceberg needs a depth of twice that to avoid being grounded. Most harbours will ground your iceberg from several miles out to sea, at best.

So instead you build submarine docking stations into its base, and have it park off of the coast while the subs attack.

[Zsaber0]

The spell Submerge Ship turns the giant iceberg into a silent underwater death machine as it slams into things from below with a swim speed of 60. You can also change the speed and direction instantly as a free action, giving it near perfect maneuverability.

[daremetoidareyo]

A&EG: earth keel is a good way to attack that harbor. Only 150,000gp.

Also, planar sails might be the way to go here. Go to elemental plane of cold, plant your sails on the icy tundra, sail your chunk of ice back into the prime.