Psionics in Pathfinder, what should I be wary of?

[inuyasha]

So, I'm extremely happy because I just picked up a copy of Ultimate Psionics for a total of $27, which is an amazing deal. And while it looks way, way better than the 3.X version of psionics, I'm not entirely sure if everything is on a proper power scale, for instance the Cryptic, which can infinitely throw ranged-touch-attack-bolts that will probably wreck low level encounters pretty well, since at that level you mostly just specify creature type (goblins).

Am I looking at that thing in particular wrong? Or am I totally incorrect? Also, what other things should I keep an eye out for in this system, because besides that one thing that sort of glared at me, the rest of it looks like an amazing improvement on 3.X psionics.

[BWR]

I haven't tried everything but I think you're right about this.

My own experience:
My GM threw out continual nerfs on the Aegis because he didn't like lots of the abilities (like the ranged attacks, the enhance weapons abilities, etc.). But he has no trouble allowing Dweomerkeepers, clerics, wizards, other psionics, etc. in his game. And he's the most competent optimizer and well-versed in the rules of the game of us all, so it's not like he doesn't know what the other classes are capable of.
Go figure.

I will say that the Aegis was amazingly useful and versatile, and a great way to combine a tank and minor utility guy, especially with the on the fly reconfigure abilities. Before the nerfs I barely kept up with the Fighter in damage dealing and hampering the enemy, and after them I hadn't a prayer. I couldn't buff the entire group like a caster could but I almost always had a useful ability active or easily available for handling terrain, environment and most combat. Mostly it meant I survived the combat and took hits allowing the rest to do the actual defeating of the enemy.

[Aoleleb]

for instance the Cryptic, which can infinitely throw ranged-touch-attack-bolts that will probably wreck low level encounters pretty well, since at that level you mostly just specify creature type (goblins).

Am I looking at that thing in particular wrong? Or am I totally incorrect?


"As a standard action, the cryptic can make a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet, firing a ray of black energy at the target. If the attack is successful, the cryptic deals 1d6 points of damage + additional damage equal to the cryptic's Intelligence modifier"

This particular ability scales by 1d6 at every odd level and has the exact same scaling as a Kineticist's energy blast. I think we can all agree Kineticists are not overpowered.

[inuyasha]

"As a standard action, the cryptic can make a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet, firing a ray of black energy at the target. If the attack is successful, the cryptic deals 1d6 points of damage + additional damage equal to the cryptic's Intelligence modifier"

This particular ability scales by 1d6 at every odd level and has the exact same scaling as a Kineticist's energy blast. I think we can all agree Kineticists are not overpowered.

I'm not well versed in the Occult system as I have no real interest, but I know that the psionics came first.

[Aharon]

Depending on wether you also use 3rd party, Psionics may be very strong (and as Dreamscarred is often seen as the most trustworthy producer of psionic material, this may be an issue).

For example, having multiple utility constructs around via advanced constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/advanced-constructs-psionic) may be seen as too strong - you can basically run around with a cordon of 4 constructs, making melee attacks against you very hard and giving you soft cover for all ranged combat. Yes, it's kind of novaing, but nobody forces you to start out with 4 - 1 is already pretty good for action economy, and the action economy gets better with higher levels.

(Human Psion Shaper with Psigifted (Astral Construct), Overchannel, Talented and Advanced Constructs).

With Ectoplasmic creation, they have amazing utility as well (Healy Myrrh, Mellowroot, Soothe Syrup, Troll Oil, Allnight, Belladonna, Flayleaf, Garlic, Golden Maple Leaves, Holly, Mistletoe, Poppy Tears, Barbarian Chew, Tobacco, Wolfsbane, Beast Lure, Beast Scent, Hound's Blood, Wild Animal Musk, Harpy Musk, Acid, Alchemical Glue, Alchemical Solvent, Alkali Flask, Brewed Reek, Fungal Stun Vial, Hobgoblin War Draught, Incense, lots and lots of other organic matter...).

I only played this build till 5th level (when Overchannel+Talented reached its peak), but overall, it was pretty good.

[inuyasha]

-snip-

In general I'm okay with 3rd party content as long as it's well made, which I judge on a book-by-book basis. I didn't realize that ectoplasmic creation was a 1st level power! Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Really I don't care as much as other DMs about balance, just that everyone's having fun, but if I decide to introduce psionics and my players just wipe the floor with everything, then it's nice to know what might be to blame.

[Elricaltovilla]

In general I'm okay with 3rd party content as long as it's well made, which I judge on a book-by-book basis. I didn't realize that ectoplasmic creation was a 1st level power! Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Really I don't care as much as other DMs about balance, just that everyone's having fun, but if I decide to introduce psionics and my players just wipe the floor with everything, then it's nice to know what might be to blame.

It is far more likely that any issues that do happen will arise due to a misunderstanding of the most basic rules of psionics, rather than anything inherent to the psionics subsystem in and of itself. One key thing to remember:

You cannot spend more Power Points than your effective manifester level on any given power.

That is a major rule that is often overlooked or unnoticed by those who claim psionics is "overpowered."

Some reading material:

Stackexchange answer (3.5) (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67010/are-psionics-overpowered-or-especially-exploitable/67016#67016)

Older Paizo thread about Psionics (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q9z5?Is-psionics-overpowered)

PDF Essay (https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1454/33/1454339027989.pdf) (Written by DSP's Jeremy Smith. Highly recommended reading!)

Reddit Thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/1a5obk/is_psionics_op/) (Great example of someone breaking that fundamental rule I mentioned above.)

TL;DR: Psionics in PF is not overpowered. Provided you actually follow the rules.

[leftwordmovemen]

It is far more likely that any issues that do happen will arise due to a misunderstanding of the most basic rules of psionics, rather than anything inherent to the psionics subsystem in and of itself. One key thing to remember:

You cannot spend more Power Points than your effective manifester level on any given power.

That is a major rule that is often overlooked or unnoticed by those who claim psionics is "overpowered."

Some reading material:

TL;DR: Psionics in PF is not overpowered. Provided you actually follow the rules.

Well, you have coyly dodged mentioning Overchannel and Wilder surges (which technically don't break the rule, as they bump your manifester level, but do allow you to pump powers beyond what they would normally be). I don't think either of those things are broken, but they should be made aware of them.

Also, the cryptic is a bit hampered even compared to the Kineticist, since they have to declare the enemy type when they psioncally focus (which at low levels is a full round), and also correctly identify the type of enemy being fought.

The only issue I ever encountered with psionic powers is two specific powers. Conceal thoughts as a psionic talent which gives "the subject gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks against those attempting to discern its true intentions with Sense Motive". Since this is a talent it can be maintained indefinitely. Depending on your campaign, a +10 to the most useful aspect of bluff can range from being very important to completely irrelevant. At the stage at which I deployed my psion character (in about book 4 of KM), it was heavily political, and thus, making outrageous and believable lies very easy my character. I should state that no one ever called bs on this though, and most people seemed suitably entertained by the prodigious lying.

The second power which maybe was a bit of a problem, was Psychic Reformation. This is a power that essentially you can use to completely re-adjust skill points, feats, powers/spells known of any other player. There is a -1 penalty for every level you go back to re-adjust (so if you wanted to re-adjust a decision made at level 2, and you were level 7, it would be a -5 to all d20 rolls, and 5x5 HP temporarily lost) for 24 hours. In a tense, fast campaign, this is interesting, in that it opens up the ability to pay some penalty now for some advantage immediately (so like you can re-train a sorcerer on the fly to get a spell you need to overcome the current obstacle, or give the fighter a feat, etc.). The problem is if you have a campaign with lots of downtime (like Kingmaker), this penalty is almost negligible

I have to say, I really appreciate DSP's material for PF, and I had almost completely lost it for the system until they released psionics and later, path of war. So, keep on doing what you do, and I'll keep throwing money at you.

[NamelessNPC]

Psionics as a system is not more broken tan magic, but as mentioned, there are individual powers that may warrant special consideration. Wind Strike, for example, is a no save daze for multiple opponents. Energy Ray is awesome and by no means broken, but being lvl/d6 no save any-energy-type-you-want may have your arcane blaster crying foul.

In general, keep in mind that psionic casters learn fewer powers, so each individual power is usually stronger tan its equivalent spell (Enlarge person vs Expansion, for example).

[Elricaltovilla]

Well, you have coyly dodged mentioning Overchannel and Wilder surges (which technically don't break the rule, as they bump your manifester level, but do allow you to pump powers beyond what they would normally be). I don't think either of those things are broken, but they should be made aware of them.


I have to say, I really appreciate DSP's material for PF, and I had almost completely lost it for the system until they released psionics and later, path of war. So, keep on doing what you do, and I'll keep throwing money at you.

I didn't really dodge anything, as overchannel's been mentioned already and is included in the suggested reading I've provided. I'm glad you're enjoying DSP's material though. I consider myself very lucky that they put up with me and let me work with them. :smalltongue:

[CGNefarious]

I've never actually played a psionic character myself, but I have played with several. I would not call them overpowered, unless you're comparing them to tier 4 classes. A wizard or druid will have more power and versatility than a psionic character, but psionics allows you to do some interesting things. That's not to say they're weak. Far from it. But unless you're very low op, they shouldn't ruin your game.