When did hard=fun

[Jamin]

I hear a lot of talk about how such and such a game is hard and everyone is like " alright something fun" :smallconfused:
The biggest example of this Majora's Mask which was just way to hard(IMO) because you had do the same things over and over again and do them in the right order at the right time.It made go crazy. There was a good story or 14 in there but I was too busy going back in time to every really get into.

So what makes hard games fun for people. I want to know what you think

[Crazy Owl]

Probably the how good it feels when you finally beat it is why people like hard games. But I prefer games where I find it fun for the whole time not just at the end.

[Setra]

I don't like things too "hard" per se, but nothing is fun to me, if there isn't a decent chance of losing.

Case in point, playing Warcraft 3. Two friends and myself in a 3v3 against three computers.

We lost horribly. My friends wanted to play a 3v2, I was against it because I knew we'd win.

We ended up doing a 3v3 against the computer and winning barely. Fun :smallbiggrin:

[Penguinizer]

I enjoy a challenge. Although, I'm not that good in rts games. I mainly turtle, using artillery and pincer rushes when I have enough defenses. That is why supreme commander rules. Shield the heck out of your base. You can now safely pump out units to attack in a continuous wave while pounding away with heavy artillery.

SotS, try Karelian Warcry. I find it kind of funny. But it is pretty good for Death metal by my standards.

[Alex Kidd]

Because challenge makes things fun. Though I'm a little biased in that I tend to enjoy torturously hard games. Challenge keeps things interesting, prevents you from getting bored. And how in the hell was MM hard? I mean it was harder than OoT,WW and TP yes, but it wasn't really hard.

[Hermit]

I don't mind hard games, although I do prefer varying diffculty modes in games, so that its more down to the player how difficult their game is. The first time I beat Deus Ex on Realistic was an awesome feeling. What really annoys me is when the difficulty is down to a dodgy, buggy game or control system, rather than the difficulty being provided by the enemies or whatnot themselves. MM was hard, and I never finished it because I lost some save data, but the difficulty came more from learning how to manipulate time to your own advantage. You came to know when you needed to reset, what you'd lose, and you'd begin planning in advance your next moves in order to open the next dungeon, or get that next item. It was an almost strategic element to it, and I at least really liked how it worked.

[Ethdred]

I think it's more challenging=fun. Have you never had a game that you just know the 'right' route to win, so it stops being fun? It's why they put different levels of difficulty in games - so people (like me) will get more replay value out of it. I remember the first time me and a housemate won Civilisation on the lowest level. I wanted to try again on a higher level, he was "Why? We've done it". He was more into hideously complicated platform and FPS games where the challenge is in doing it once - I hate having to go back over the same ground again and again every time you die.

[Pronounceable]

It's challange=fun as has been said. Bigger the challenge, greater the success. (And also the bragging rights, let's not forget bragging rights.)

Consider this paragraph:
PoP2 on hard. The goth bitch on the ship. It took me one whole damn hour to beat her. And it's the effing tutorial!

Now contrast with this:
PoP2. That goth chick on the ship. She's so easy, I can beat her with my eyes closed.

Which sounds more fun? First one. No pain, no gain.

[Khantalas]

It's challange=fun as has been said. Bigger the challenge, greater the success. (And also the bragging rights, let's not forget bragging rights.)

Consider this paragraph:
PoP2 on hard. The goth bitch on the ship. It took me one whole damn hour to beat her. And it's the effing tutorial!

Now contrast with this:
PoP2. That goth chick on the ship. She's so easy, I can beat her with my eyes closed.

Which sounds more fun? First one. No pain, no gain.

An hour?

Were you lacking the use of your arms, eyes, or any other neural connections that would help you beat her in a more acceptable time limit, like, two minutes?

Weren't you the guy that beat Kyle Katarn in two seconds in Jedi Master level?

[Setra]

An hour?

Were you lacking the use of your arms, eyes, or any other neural connections that would help you beat her in a more acceptable time limit, like, two minutes?

Weren't you the guy that beat Kyle Katarn in two seconds in Jedi Master level?
He's probably exaggerating?

[Ronsian]

Has anybody here ever played ADOM? Good game, VERY hard. I have spent years on it, and just got a win. Why did I play it? Because every second of it was hard, and a blast. For instance, do you go back and do the pitifully easy game? Or the one that was hard, and actually presented a challenge.

[Khantalas]

He's probably exaggerating?

Hmm... I was, too. I just take everything said by others incredibly literally.

It takes more like five minutes.

[Setra]

Speaking of hard.. how hard is the Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox? I've been considering trying it, but the difficulty seems rather extreme.

As points of referance, compared to Devil May Cry 3 (On easy), and the original Ninja Gaiden?

[Tengu]

I don't want to state the obvious, but too hard is as bad as too easy.

Now, online games are especially bad when too hard, especially if they penalize you by loss of experience and/or items upon death - a lagspike and there goes what you worked for so many hours. Especially true in case of "hardcore" NWN servers with administration that thinks it's more RP that way.

Offline games, I usually play for the story. So difficulty does not matter that much, but I prefer too easy to too hard.

[Ranis]

When things are too easy, I don't have as much fun. I like games that frustrate me and force me to think out of the box that it has just shoved me in during the level/dungeon. I enjoy it when games frustrate me enough to where I have to walk away from it for a while before I break the controller by throwing it at the TV.

Ever play Ninja Gaiden Black? That game will give you some serious headaches.

[Indon]

I think harder and easier games are both fun, but of different types.

I mean, if I want to play a game so I can get my heartbeat up, really get concentrating on something, and feel really good when I achieve something, I'll play a harder game.

On the other hand, if I'm in a mood to just space out, and give my body something to do while I think of other things, I play an easier game.

Both are fun, but radically different experiences.

[Assasinater]

Has anybody here ever played ADOM? Good game, VERY hard. I have spent years on it, and just got a win. Why did I play it? Because every second of it was hard, and a blast. For instance, do you go back and do the pitifully easy game? Or the one that was hard, and actually presented a challenge.

Likewise, I've lost around 500 characters in many years to that game, but eventually I turn up playing it again. IMHO, games are virtual challenges that people feel the need of, in the midst of a relatively boring life. Of course, this is a generalization, and hardly %100 true.

Though challenge is only one aspect that makes a game good. Personally, I had no difficulty finishing Planescape: Torment, or Baldur's Gate 2, but both are true classics.

[Fualkner Asiniti]

Has anybody here ever played ADOM? Good game, VERY hard. I have spent years on it, and just got a win. Why did I play it? Because every second of it was hard, and a blast. For instance, do you go back and do the pitifully easy game? Or the one that was hard, and actually presented a challenge.

ROGUELIKES PWN!

Ever play Crawl? Awesome. ADOM's good too.

[Pronounceable]

Yes, roguelikes do pwn. But they might take too long, and one may lose interest. I played ADOM and sucked at it for months, then I stopped. Then I went back, sucking a bit less this time. Then I stopped again. I think I'll be finishing it in 30 or so years...

Speaking of difficulty, anyone played Freespace on insane? THAT is what I call difficult. Once the lowly Apollo is out of your sight, you get your afterburner handed to you. Or maybe I just suck at flying.


Khantalas: It felt like an hour. But it probably was around half an hour, because I started the game on hard. Nowadays, five minutes it is. And I was the guy who beat Kyle Katarn on first try, not two seconds.
Although I do such to Tavion from time to time. But they're dumb luck and don't really count...

As I said, let's not forget the bragging rights.:)

[Gungnir]

Sometimes adding a bit of hardness in a couple spots in a game is a good thing, as long as its not completely impassable. Sure, you're frustrated as hell, but then you finally get past it, and theres those glorious 10 minutes of running around the place yelling "BOOYAH!" and emailing any of your friends that play the same game.

[Alex Kidd]

Agreed. Man I remember the first time me and my best friend beat Contra (we didn't know the Konami Code either). Just awesome, we also had bragging rights throughout the schoolyard as the only ones who ever did.

On hard games, anyone here ever play Shin Megami Tensei Lucifer's Call (Nocturne in the States)?

[Mr._Blinky]

Speaking of hard.. how hard is the Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox? I've been considering trying it, but the difficulty seems rather extreme.

As points of referance, compared to Devil May Cry 3 (On easy), and the original Ninja Gaiden?

Unfortunately, I haven't played DMC3, easy or no, so I can't give you a reference on that. But I can't recommend Ninja Gaiden highly enough. Few times have any games ever made me feel like such a badass as when I run up a wall, back-flip off, and decapitate four enemies before I land. On the other hand, while you feel like a crazy, badass motha', you'll learn that the key to success in that game is taking every opponent seriously, and knowing how to kill them. And remember that in that game, Inverse Ninja Law does not work against your enemies. If you get jumped by four or five enemy ninjas, you'd better believe it's going to hurt. The game is really hard, and the original game possesses no easy mode, but it's incredibly fun.

[Haikiah]

Devil May Cry difficulty ----> http://www.cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20070601

'nuff said.

[Ranis]

Unfortunately, I haven't played DMC3, easy or no, so I can't give you a reference on that. But I can't recommend Ninja Gaiden highly enough. Few times have any games ever made me feel like such a badass as when I run up a wall, back-flip off, and decapitate four enemies before I land. On the other hand, while you feel like a crazy, badass motha', you'll learn that the key to success in that game is taking every opponent seriously, and knowing how to kill them. And remember that in that game, Inverse Ninja Law does not work against your enemies. If you get jumped by four or five enemy ninjas, you'd better believe it's going to hurt. The game is really hard, and the original game possesses no easy mode, but it's incredibly fun.

Ninja Gaiden Black is literally the hardest game ever made. It's the only game that I've never been able to make it to the end of, let alone beat. Just...crazy.

[Icewalker]

I'd say part of it is 'I won this game'.

I prefer very hard but beatable games. ie Devil May Cry 3 special edition (the normal version, as I have heard, is totally impossible).

I got pretty good at DMC3, and beat it in normal, hard, and very hard difficulties. Then I tried Dante Must Die mode, which is supposed to be impossible. I got to level 7/20, at which point I gave up after several tries.

I think the 'yay something fun' reply to 'that's a hard game' may due to people finding games too easy nowadays.


Btw, difference between normal and special edition of DMC3:
1. Normal mode in the SE is easy mode in the non special edition, hard in SE is normal in normal version, DMD in SE is Very Hard in normal version, etc. Each difficulty is one step down.
2. I played the 'gold orb' mode of the special edition, in which you have infinite continues (from 1-2 points per level) as opposed to having to restart every time you lose to the boss of the really long level >.> In Gold Orb you can also buy (VERY EXPENSIVE) 'gold orbs' which let you resurrect on the spot and keep fighting once. There is also yellow orb mode, in which no continues, and the special orbs you buy give you a continue.

[Dallas-Dakota]

I like hard games.
But the games like diablo really bored me when you have to just repeat the same thing ......thrice.

Stronghold legends is a nice game,its a bit frustrating but fun.

[Counterpower]

I have three categories of games.

1. Games that I consider "too hard". If I'm having trouble making noticeable progress in the game, I'll probably lose my patience and switch to playing a different game. Although, I will sometimes come back to one of these games and find that my skills have improved to the point where I can acually do something with it.

2. Games that I consider "just right". Basically, it's a challenging game, but not one so challenging that I can't make progress. Most of the Zelda games, like MM, fall into this category. I'll gladly play these games again, at least until theyve lost their fun from sheer repetitiveness.

3. Games that I consider "too easy". Any game that I can beat in eight days, without spending most of my waking hours on it, may not present enough of a challenge to be that much fun. If anyone's played Paper Mario for the N64, that's the game I'm referring to that I beat in 8 days. I'll come back to these sometimes, but only when they have other redeeming features.

[Setra]

Is there any RPG that falls under the "hard" category?

How about FFIV?

Unfortunately, I haven't played DMC3, easy or no, so I can't give you a reference on that. But I can't recommend Ninja Gaiden highly enough. Few times have any games ever made me feel like such a badass as when I run up a wall, back-flip off, and decapitate four enemies before I land. On the other hand, while you feel like a crazy, badass motha', you'll learn that the key to success in that game is taking every opponent seriously, and knowing how to kill them. And remember that in that game, Inverse Ninja Law does not work against your enemies. If you get jumped by four or five enemy ninjas, you'd better believe it's going to hurt. The game is really hard, and the original game possesses no easy mode, but it's incredibly fun.
As fun as a game is, I'd rather not get it if it'll make me too frustrated. If I get frustrated at my game, I have a tendency to punch the wall, and make holes in it.. and break controllers.

And we're renting this house so... It might be better if I didn't get it I guess. :smalltongue:

[SKarious]

Has anybody here ever played ADOM? Good game, VERY hard. I have spent years on it, and just got a win. Why did I play it? Because every second of it was hard, and a blast. For instance, do you go back and do the pitifully easy game? Or the one that was hard, and actually presented a challenge.

Wait, it's possible to win in ADOM?:smallconfused: without cheating?
ADOM is a game I consider not just "very hard" but "unfair". 20 hours of dungeon crawling, and 1 Explosive Runes (tm) later half of your nifty stuff is gone for good. And just then, an invulnerable golem\dragon appears out of the blue and blasts your character.

[Ronsian]

Adom, requires lots of skill and luck. Took me years to learn how to take on that invulnerable golem, be it running away or zapping him. Then, I learned to avoid getting hit by the trap, and starting enough characters to get through. It isn't unfair, goes under the VERY VERY hard category :smallfrown:. It took me a long time to beat it, but when I did, I was glad for weeks. Then, I went back to it and beat it again.

[Destro_Yersul]

Ninja Gaiden Black

Ninja Dog Mode: Extremely easy, especially for the first seven chapters. This mode was put in the game because the designers felt sorry for people who couldn't beat normal.

Normal Mode: Decently hard, but not so hard you want to headbutt a kitten. Learn a few tricks and fight the bosses a couple times to form a strategy and you shouldn't have too many problems.

Hard Mode: Difficult. Multiple tries to get through each horde of enemies, let alone the bosses. Strategy and timing are key.

Very Hard Mode: Quite Difficult. Switching weapons and using combos and throws is essential. Blocking becomes less effective, and dodging at exactly the right moment is necessary for survival.

Master Ninja Mode: OMGWTFBBQ. So amazingly hard it's near impossible to get past the first few fights, let alone the first level. And forget about the bosses! I have spent days on this difficulty, and accomplished nothing.

[CrazedGoblin]

ye spending time practicing and developing then finally beating the boss :smallbiggrin:

[SKarious]

Viewtiful Joe on Ultra-V Rated is also pretty difficult. until you get to a certain boss and then it's nearly impossible.
F-Zero GX is very hard too, but it's OK because it's a fun game and keeps drawing you in even after crashing your car in that jump 20 times in a row.
(dumb stupid casino mission)

[Ranis]

Master Ninja Mode: OMGWTFBBQ. So amazingly hard it's near impossible to get past the first few fights, let alone the first level. And forget about the bosses! I have spent days on this difficulty, and accomplished nothing.

As I understand it, there are only five people in the world who have beaten Ninja Gaiden Black on Master Ninja.

They are all Korean.

[Drascin]

I think the 'yay something fun' reply to 'that's a hard game' may due to people finding games too easy nowadays.


Pretty much. Lately, a lot of games I'm getting end up being wayy too easy. Either that, or the difficulty is just messed up, inconsistant and generally exasperating, which is even worse (star example: Soul Calibur III).

I hate it when I get stuck... but I love that "OH, YEAH!" moment when you S-rank Jumpin' Jack Flash in Insane difficulty even more. I want a challenge, something that takes me a couple tries to figure out, and a few more to beat. It loses a bit of charm when you just breeze through. Easy games can still be very fun (case in point: late Zeldas are pitifully easy, but I still have a blast beating them while they last) but you end up with kind of a "...that's it?" feeling.

[Inigo_Carmine]

I prefer very hard but beatable games. ie Devil May Cry 3 special edition (the normal version, as I have heard, is totally impossible).

I got pretty good at DMC3, and beat it in normal, hard, and very hard difficulties. Then I tried Dante Must Die mode, which is supposed to be impossible. I got to level 7/20, at which point I gave up after several tries.

Devil May Cry 3 (original, never played SE) is a case study on how not to make a game difficult. It was difficult for 2 reasons:

1) Offensive Commitment: Dante is quick, and has some great dodge moves...unless you actually want to attack something. Anytime you decide to swing your weapon, you commit yourself to being entirely unable to dodge for a short length of time.

2) Camera-shy enemies: The AI was cheap in this game. Almost every enemy's tactic was to assault you with ranged/charging attacks from off-camera. That's right, not behind you, or to your side, but to simply get offscreen where you cannot see them and attack you. The fact that you're mostly swarmed by a half-dozen+ enemies at all times makes this annoying. You have to continually dodge attacks before you can actually know they're coming.

The fact that most of these attacks stunned dante for a couple seconds each made getting hit even once practically suicide (since getting hit once stunned you to get hit 4-5 more times and get stunned further, etc) made the higher difficulties in this game tedious. I got through hard mode (non-SE version) by continuously jumping in the air and using pistols. Since you're always moving, many ranged attacks will miss and charge attacks will go beneath you. Took forever, but that was the only way I could survive. Only boss enemies ever saw my melee attacks.

Contrast this to Devil May Cry 1, which was delisciously difficult. You were usually dealing with only about half as many enemies at once, and both ranged and melee were effective. It was more about weapon choice (Alastor for quick wide sweeps hitting multiple enemies, or Ifrit for slower but powerful concentrated attacks).

Also, at just about anytime in DMC1 you could cancel an attack and dodge out of the way. That was a game whose difficulty was extremely fun.

Bottom line is, the more control you have over your fate, the more fun a game is. Many games (DMC3 and the aforementioned Soul Caliber 3) made more "artificial" attempts at difficulty, and lessened the gaming experience because of it. Let me also heap Resident Evil 3 on this list because I just played that last week.

When you overcome a challenge because you increase your understanding of an enemy, or increase your adeptness at controlling your character, it's fun. When you overcome a challenge because you got lucky, or had to find some cheap exploit (ala the jumping/pistolling I used in DMC3), it is not very fun.

[Indon]

Another point I'd like to throw in are games which are easy to beat, but hard to master, in terms of unlocking all availible achievements, etc.

Case in point: Goldeneye 64. Pretty easy on Easy mode. Absolutely ridiculous to beat it on the hardest mode and acquire all the cheats. Both cases, very fun.

[neriana]

I don't like games that are "hard", because they're usually hard because they're blatantly unfair. I don't have the time or the energy to deal with that.

I do like games that are somewhat challenging. Otherwise you're just clicking buttons and looking at pretty pictures... sort of the way the Final Fantasy series is heading, unfortunately :smallmad:.

It's the same as any game or sport -- or life. I want my skills tested, not an automatic win from how easy it is or automatic loss from how difficult it is. There have been actual psychological studies that show people are happiest when they're somewhat challenged, doing things that are neither too easy nor frustratingly hard. Personally, I don't even feel satisfaction when I finally beat something that was incredibly difficult, merely relief that it's over.

[Destro_Yersul]

As I understand it, there are only five people in the world who have beaten Ninja Gaiden Black on Master Ninja.

They are all Korean.

Hehe. One of these days though, I will get it. I almost got to the first save point once!

[endoperez]

Wait, it's possible to win in ADOM?:smallconfused: without cheating?
ADOM is a game I consider not just "very hard" but "unfair". 20 hours of dungeon crawling, and 1 Explosive Runes (tm) later half of your nifty stuff is gone for good. And just then, an invulnerable golem\dragon appears out of the blue and blasts your character.


ADOM, as most roguelikes, can be won without cheating, but is really unfair if you don't read spoilers. Still, playing through one without spoilers is the epitome of bragging rights. Part of it comes from the fact that your character is, and always will be, underpowered. Your own skill and knowledge of the workings of the game is the only thing that may keep your character alive. It took me a few years to finish the game, once, and even then I had read spoilers extensively for months. I've now been trying Dungeon Crawl, which has less "you didn't know this, you die!" moments (but more "you die!" moments). THAT's unfair! In ADOM, after you've reached a certain level of skill, you can be pretty certain of reaching character level 6 or so if you really want to. In Crawl, you won't know if you reach character level 6 until you're there. It's like an arcade game that's fast, furious and turn-based. You can see every monster and danger coming your way, but your actions are limited, so you might still be unable to avoid your death. But it's fun, so you try again.

[Big Bug Basher]

My veiw is this if it is possible to beat and hard then its a good fun game I mean would you like any of your favorite games if you did a few things there was no risk of failure BUT it had a good storyline? I mean a good storyline adds to a game but imagine: you get the game 10 minuts later your standing in front of the boss slash and he's dead. You'd be like what the (insert cuse of your choise here) was that?!?!? understand?

[Querzis]

Its more like easy games are really boring. It seems like everyone love the first prince of Persia...except me. I died once in the entire freaking game, ONCE (when we lose our dagger of time) and it was more because I was stupid then because it was hard. Seriously, as long as I dont die because of a bug in the game, I dont care if I die 200 times on the same boss, I'll try again anyway. I especially love games where practice wont help you, even if its the fourth time you play this game, its still gonna be as hard as the first time like ogreBattle64, Fire Emblem or Warcraft3 (of course you can become better in Warcraft3 but the people you fight can too).

[Jaxinator]

^ that first sentence says it all really.

People are bored by games that tend to be too easy. Hard = challenging. Not too many people feel satisfied with skating by and getting things done when there are no challenges or obstacles.

There are several games on the market that are thought to be quite difficult, but a "hard" game is no more fun than an "easy" game. The point is to be challenged. An insanely hard game isn't fun. When you can see no victory ahead and the ultimate conclusion is almost always failure, this kills the game too. That is why most games have those difficulty settings. If you find it way to easy, set it harder, and vice-versa.

[Enlong]

Aye. Easy is boring, and hard is very rewarding. For example, I love Final Fantasy III as much as I hate it, and that's a lot. The day I finally defeat Cloud of Darkness shall be a very, very happy day for me.

While we're on the subject, did anyone find the GBA version of FFVI to be far easier then the SNES version? I do NOT remember killing Atma Weapon before he used Flare Star or Mind Blast in the SNES version.

[Rob Knotts]

So what makes hard games fun for people. I want to know what you thinkThe equation goes back to arcade cabinet editions of Street Fighter II, Shinobi, Mario Bros., Donkey Kong, even Pac Man and Asteroids. The more addictive a game was, the more quarters players would put into the game, and the harder it became to continue/complete the game, the more addictive it got.

[PlatinumJester]

The best thing about hard games is the great feeling of success when you have shoved the final sword/arrow/bullet/missile/slam/punch etc into the final boss's arse and you can stand up and shout "Thou hast been owned by a ginger person".

[Ranis]

I don't like games that are "hard", because they're usually hard because they're blatantly unfair. I don't have the time or the energy to deal with that.

Can you define "blatantly unfair?" Or give some examples?

[Ethdred]

Can you define "blatantly unfair?" Or give some examples?

I'm not sure what was meant by 'unfair' but I don't like games where you have to guess what the designer was thinking. Like there is one switch hidden behind one curtain in one room that you have to find to progress. Or you have to realise that the green puppy fits in the blue vase. I know some people like these 'puzzle solving games' but not my cup of tea at all. I prefer the 'easy to play, difficult to master' games where you can get some sense of satisfaction fairly early on, but you also realise you could be doing much better - or where you can set your own in game goals.