How does wizard, sorc and arcanist compare to each other at low levels?

[Huldaerus]

Hi guys.

I'm playing a game from level 1 to level 6-7 and I want to play an arcane caster. Which one is more enjoyable at this range? Could you point me out some tips, tricks and builds with that levels in mind?

Thanks!

[Gildedragon]

Personally I find the arcanist more fun overall (I am not keen on the rigidity of sorc spells known; nor of assigned spell slots)

[DarkOne-Rob]

There is so much diversity in those three classes over those three levels that it is really hard to give you a useful response (other than personal preference).

Wizards will get new spell levels earlier. For many players and PC-builds this is very significant. There are a couple of school specializations that are very neat and fun, making this an excellent option for traditional magic masters. I am not aware of any methods to build a melee-oriented wizard at these levels.

Sorcerers are incredibly diverse because of their bloodlines. A Draconic sorcerer (as well as several others) can get a decent number of natural attacks as early as level 1, making it possible to build melee sorcerers. As spontaneous casters they lack the diversity day-to-day of wizards. In addition, they are more inclined to be social PCs.

Arcanists have very few tricks unique to them, but can mix and match several of the tricks of both Wizards and Sorcerers. Several archetypes present new options, though, making them an interesting blend of the two classes.


To give you a better response it will help to know more about what you want to do with this PC.

[Kish]

What book is the arcanist from, anyway?

[Huldaerus]

To give you a better response it will help to know more about what you want to do with this PC.

I'm a fan of the classic god / batman builds in 3.5 and I love crowd control and debuffing. I'd like to build for survivability first, flexibility second, offensive output third.

[holywhippet]

What book is the arcanist from, anyway?

Despite it not being in the title I'm assuming they are referring to Pathfinder: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist

[Kish]

Ah, thank you.

[DarkOne-Rob]

I'm a fan of the classic god / batman builds in 3.5 and I love crowd control and debuffing. I'd like to build for survivability first, flexibility second, offensive output third.
In that case, I would advise you to stick with Wizard. Specialize in Conjuration (Teleportation), and essentially continue as you did in 3.5. It is still effective, though less likely to be overpowering from level 1 (only because some of the most powerful spells received minor nerfs).

[Zanos]

Assuming a primary ability score of 20:

A sorcerer has 5 first level spells per day. He has 2 first level spells known, and 1 bloodline spell. Having 3 spells to choose from, he has semi-decent variety and a bit of staying power.

A wizard has 3 first level spells per day. He has unlimited spells known, but he can only prepare 3 spells, so his per day variety is the same as the sorcerer. His advantage comes from being able to change his spell selection from day to day to meet different needs, or to cast spells with long staying power. This is relatively limited at low levels, however. As he levels up, both his at the moment and day to day versatility vastly exceeds most sorcerers.

An arcanist has 4 first level spells per day, and 2 spells prepared. His per-day variety is the worst of all the classes, and his staying power is right between sorcerer and wizard. His strength, like the wizard, comes from being able to prepare different spells from day to day, and like the sorcerer he does not have to guess how many times he will need a specific spell. There is a disadvantage to his casting that pops up later concerning buff spells. An arcanist probably only needs 1 cast of each of his hour or 10 min/level buffs, but those will still eat preparation slots that are dead for the rest of the day. This is more critical at high levels, when buff stacking is common among arcane casters. As an arcanist gains levels, his at the moment versatility will always be less than a sorcerers, but his day to day is better.

As intended, the arcanist is pretty much between the sorcerer and wizard. I personally am not a fan of the class, since I favor casting spells with long durations at the start of the day, which is more difficult for an arcanist to manage. I do recommend an arcanist to newer players, who don't want to have to guess the number of times they'll need a certain spell. It's probably the most forgiving of the casters to build, since you aren't locked into spell choices OR have to predict what spells you'll need. The wizard is more powerful, however.

[Eldariel]

Wizards are the best. On these levels it's all about the next level of spells and waiting until level 4 to get l2 spells feels like an eternity. Lots of good generalist spells cover any daily needs you may have anyways, so spontaneity isn't that big of a deal if you know what you're doing. On even-leveled spell levels, Arcanists tend to be insane since they basically have the best Wizard-spells for the day available at any point spontaneously. But Wizards are slightly more ridiculous, though requiring more experience from the player.

[Zanos]

Yep, wizards have the highest skill ceiling by quite a bit. I'd argue arcanist has the lowest floor.

[Kurald Galain]

Assuming a primary ability score of 20:

That's not a reasonable assumption.

Also, you're overlooking that the wizard gets more spells from his school specialization AND one more from his arcane bond (if he wants); and that both wizard and sorc get spell-like abilities from their school and bloodline, respectively. Finally, at low levels, cantrips are still a viable combat option (most notably Daze).

[Zanos]

That's not a reasonable assumption.

Also, you're overlooking that the wizard gets more spells from his school specialization AND one more from his arcane bond (if he wants); and that both wizard and sorc get spell-like abilities from their school and bloodline, respectively. Finally, at low levels, cantrips are still a viable combat option (most notably Daze).
It is. Pathfinder uses point buy by default, and several races, including human, get a +2 bonus to any ability scores. Several others get a +2 bonus to intelligence or charisma. Why would you build a spellcaster and not put a 20 in "stat for spellcasting?" If you're building a gish, that's an entirely different discussion.

I was more comparing the spellcasting than anything else. Bloodline and School abilities are incredibly varied, so comparing them is very apples to oranges. Arcane casting off the sorc/wiz list is where the classes actually overlap, so it's much easier to compare them based on that. In a vacuum, bloodlines tend to be somewhat more powerful than school specialization, however.

Every caster gets cantrips at will, and there's a very small number of good ones. Since all casters are equally good at spamming daze, the differences between the cantrip casting are minor enough to ignore.

[Kurald Galain]

I was more comparing the spellcasting than anything else.

Yes, but that's a meaningless comparison. If you're looking at staying power of a low level caster, you'll also have to look at school/bloodline powers and cantrips. Furthermore, "low" doesn't mean "level 1" per se.

Overall, it is simply incorrect to conclude that the wiz has the lowest staying power of the three (for example, a third-level wizard has eight spells per day plus a 7/day school ability, whereas arcy is stuck with five).

[Sayt]

It is. Pathfinder uses point buy by default, and several races, including human, get a +2 bonus to any ability scores. Several others get a +2 bonus to intelligence or charisma. Why would you build a spellcaster and not put a 20 in "stat for spellcasting?" If you're building a gish, that's an entirely different discussion.

I was more comparing the spellcasting than anything else. Bloodline and School abilities are incredibly varied, so comparing them is very apples to oranges. Arcane casting off the sorc/wiz list is where the classes actually overlap, so it's much easier to compare them based on that. In a vacuum, bloodlines tend to be somewhat more powerful than school specialization, however.

Every caster gets cantrips at will, and there's a very small number of good ones. Since all casters are equally good at spamming daze, the differences between the cantrip casting are minor enough to ignore.

Sorcerers and Arcanist know 4 cantrips at L1, wizards 'prepare' 3, on the other hand, I'm not sure if there are four decent cantrips to all have prepared.

An eighteen in a stat costs 17 point buy points. If you're at 15pb (Deity have mercy on your soul), you have to dump a stat and you have to dump further to get, say, any con.

Why wouldn't you? Because you've decided you don't want or need to min/max this particular character, because you want to have decent scores in other abilities.

[Incorrect]

The Arcanist can get +2 CL or +2 DC on spells, with an Exploit
Its not the same as a spell level, but it is very useful.
The same goes for move action "dimension door".

In my experience, wizard is more powerful when optimized, but the arcanist is way more fun :smallsmile:

[Huldaerus]

Having a 20 is not a problem. We hace a wooping 32 point buy.

[Spore]

I'd go Bard or Magus honestly but that's not the point of the topic. But I'd go for Sorcerer. Wizards have to conserve their spells and nothing is more frustrating to me than a wizard that waits for their turn only to shoot with a crossbow or use that boring 1st level SLA. That being said if a Sorcerer picks the WRONG spells he or she is screwed.

[Kurald Galain]

But I'd go for Sorcerer. Wizards have to conserve their spells

Wizard/3 has eight spells per day; sorc/3 has six spells per day.
Whoops, looks like the sorc is the one who has to conserve their spells.

[Spore]

Wizard/3 has eight spells per day; sorc/3 has six spells per day.
Whoops, looks like the sorc is the one who has to conserve their spells.

I don't know where you pull your numbers from. Assuming 20 Int or Cha as it is closer to OP's 32pbuy and it even benefits your side of the argument.

Sorc has 7 spells per day on 1st level; 5 cantrips to use.
Wizard has 4 1st level spells per day and 2 2nd level spells per day, equalling 6 spells per day; 4 cantrips to use.

I'd say they are roughly equal with the Wizard have the edge. But that is balancing for you and I prefer the sorcerer experience because their curve is more smooth. It's the same reason I prefer a bard or magus over a Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight. the Eldritch Knight might have the ultimate spell list at his disposal but man, is the way there weird.

[Kurald Galain]

Wizard has 4 1st level spells per day and 2 2nd level spells per day,
Five 1st level spells (2 base, 1 from specialist, 2 from int) and three 2nd level spells, not counting arcane bond.

Sure, the sorc is a great class and there are several reasons to play one, but "the wizard runs out of spells" isn't one of them.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Five 1st level spells (2 base, 1 from specialist, 2 from int) and three 2nd level spells, not counting arcane bond.

Sure, the sorc is a great class and there are several reasons to play one, but "the wizard runs out of spells" isn't one of them.

The biggest reason to play a wizard rather than a sorcerer or arcanist is not having to live through level 3. After level 3, things get better for the sorcerer, but level 3 is terrible.

[Gallowglass]

I'm a fan of the classic god / batman builds in 3.5 and I love crowd control and debuffing. I'd like to build for survivability first, flexibility second, offensive output third.

Druid. Druid is the right choice.

kidding, kidding.

So, here's a question you have to ask yourself that most other advice is going to gloss over. What can you expect out of this DM? Because the advantage wizard has over sorcerer is a lot more DM/game dependent than the optimizers let on. You see, the wizard's strength is flexibility. They should have more spells to choose from than the sorcerer and they can change out spells on a day by day basis. But will they have that at low levels? I'm going to assume a 20 in int here and I'm ignoring cantrips entirely.

A wizard starts with 8 1st level spells in their spellbook.
A sorcerer starts with 2 1st level spells known
A arcanist starts with 8 1st level spells in their spellbook

The difference between 8 and 2 is YUUUUGE at 1st level. So out of the gate, the wizard is definitely and significantly more flexible. But are they more powerful?

A wizard can memorize and cast 4 1st level spells a day. (1 + 2 for int + 1 for school). These can be 4 different spells.
A sorcerer can cast 5 1st level spells a day (3 + 2 for cha). These pull from their 2 spells known.
A arcanist can memorize and cast 4 1st level spells a day (2 + 2 for int) BUT can only prepare 2 spells to use for those 4 castings.

So the wizard is still king of flexibility. I can have 4 different spells a day. Whereas the arcanist and sorcerer can spam their 2 spells 4 or 5 times.

So as you go up level, the wizard and arcanist each get 2 new spells of whatever level they want added to their spellbook. That's by rule. Nothing the game or DM can do outside of houserule to change that. The sorcerer also learns new spells at a much more erratic rate.
(ignoring cantrips and including bloodline spells):

2nd 0
3rd 2
4th 1
5th 3
6th 1
7th 4

How ridiculous is that? How'd they even let that get through editing? No new spells at 2nd level? 4 at 7th? seriously guys.

But, that's the deal. that's ALL the wizard and arcanist can depend on getting neutral of the DM and game. Because they don't know what the WBL will be. They don't know what the access to buy scrolls to add to their spellbook will be. They don't know how many enemy spellbooks or treasure horde spellbooks they are going to find.

When i see the optimizers make assumptions on this board they -assume- that they will have full WBL, unfettered access to buy whatever spells they want and no "hard to find" spells due to the campaign regionalizations (i.e. necromancy is a forbidden art, its hard to find necromancy scolls in this region). In fairness, when you are building theoretical characters, you either have to assume full access or no access, and its more fun to assume full access. Where I get annoyed is when someone points out you might not get that level of access in a game, then people start ranting about activist DMs ignoring the spirit of the game and how WBL is an integral part of the balancing mechanism and yadda yadda.

So my point (which I took too long to get to) is what can you expect from your GM? because that will affect which one is going to be more fun to you. As much as whether or not you want to be a missile battery (sorcerer) or batman (wizard).

Now you say you want to be batman. So, IMO, you've answered your own question. Go wizard. Its the only one that is going to give you the full wealth of flexibility you are looking for.

If you want to try something new, go Arcanist. The exploits (you will have 4 of them by 7th level) are fun and will give you a new mechanic to explore. Plus as you can swap spells out day to day you will have some level of being batman. You probably won't be frustrated.

Don't go sorcerer. A sorcerer is not batman, not at least until higher levels where they get things that let them fake the flexibility.

edit: Oh I almost forgot. I've answered your question to the best of my ability, now I'm free to give you some unsolicited advice.

Go Magus. You are only going to 7th level. By 7th level you really aren't going to notice the different in total spells per day between Magus and Wizard and you are going to have so many other fun things to do. At that level, Magus is just more fun than Wizard and it isn't until higher levels that the wizard/sorcerer/arcanist begin outstripping the other classes.

[Eldariel]

Go Magus. You are only going to 7th level. By 7th level you really aren't going to notice the different in total spells per day between Magus and Wizard and you are going to have so many other fun things to do. At that level, Magus is just more fun than Wizard and it isn't until higher levels that the wizard/sorcerer/arcanist begin outstripping the other classes.

I'd like to emphasize that "fun" differs from person to person and Wizard and Magus play out very differently. If a person wants to play a primary arcanist, I don't think Magus is where one should look. Wizard has a vastly superior spell list and faster spell progression with much of Magus's power being in their melee gimmick. Level 3 spells are one of the bigger break points in magic (Dispel Magic, Haste, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Fly, Phantom Steed, Shrink Item, Explosive Runes, Summon Monster III [in PF, summons get quite good here with Lantern Archon, Dretch, Nosoi Psychopomp and Agathion Silvanshee offering good effect versatility in addition to solid brawler options such as Dire Boar/Aurochs/Choker/Leopard], Lesser Animate Dead, etc.) most notably beginning to provide a lot more ridiculous downtime spells (Shrink Item, Explosive Runes, Lesser Animate Dead) alongside the general fix-it-all, Dispel Magic, and the best combat buff in the game in Haste. As mentioned, SMIII is also the first truly impressive Summon Monster-spell, being able to replicate a number of spell effects and get a great variety of specialist creatures.

Magus gets access to the game-changing spells two full character levels after a Wizard which for a primary caster is royal pain, and he has a worse list available and less castings. Thus, if he wanted to play a gish, sure, but if he wants to play an arcanist, I feel Magus will offer a couple of levels less of what he wants.

[Elder_Basilisk]

If the game tops out at level 7, I wouldn't even consider sorcerer or arcanist. At level 7, your wizard will get 4th level spells like Evard's Black Tentacles. The sorcerer and arcanist will never get those spells.

[Âmesang]

On a somewhat related note…

Did anyone ever come up with a 3rd Edition version of the arcanist? In my head I'm sort of picturing a 3rd Edition wizard but with the spellcasting ability of a spirit shaman so as to combine wizard with sorcerer.

I bring it up 'cause in the FORGOTTEN REALMS® Campaign Setting the arcane spellcasters of the Empire of Netheril were referred to as "arcanists" regardless if an individual was a sorcerer or a wizard; so why not just make them actual arcanists? If you throw in the fluff behind the knowstones, I'm imagining the first human spellcasters being sorcerers who, over time, refine their art and, switching from Charisma to Intelligence through their refinement, become arcanists… but then comes the Fall of Netheril and they have to pick up the pieces and start again, losing some of the natural power their ancestors had been born with and the survivors become the first wizards.

I'm aware that the first human arcanists of Faerûn were taught by the elves so in this case it'd probably have to be some kind of Jedi-like situation where the elves only trained those whom had the most in-born potential, the natural aptitude that make someone a sorcerer.