Optimizing a Champion

[Klorox]

What are some ways to optimize the fighter sub-class, the champion?

I currently have a 5th level half orc champion. He uses an enchanted great axe, has the great weapon fighting feat and a 20 strength. He wears plate mail armor, and has the defense fighting style (AC = 19).

Since a champions main power is more critical hits, I thought the half orc race was a no brainer.

I also was thinking one way to improve my character would be to add in 2 levels of barbarian. This would give the reckless attack ability, which gives you advantage on your attack, as well as giving the opponent advantage on their attacks to hit.

With the great weapon fighting feat, I get a bonus action attack if I drop an enemy or if I score a critical hit. When coupled with the half orc bonus, critical hits are what I really need to fish for to make this character effective.

Should I add two levels of barbarian? If so, when should I add them in? As in, what character level should I add them? Or should I invest in a feat like magic initiate, which could give me a familiar that I can use to distract enemies (therefore giving me advantage)? Although it'll probably never happen, the 4th attack I'd get as a capstone ability is pretty appealing.

I'm open to other suggestions as well. I look forward to reading them!

ON EDIT: I thought I had posted the stats. Sorry!

STR 20 DEX 13 CON 18 INT 9 WIS 13 CHA 10

[Zman]

Half Orc, and then two levels of Barbarian for Reckless Attack. Yeah, the extra attacks will be delayed two levels, but big crits come often and Reckless seriously increases damage output. Throw in GWM for more damage and when those crits hit another attack.

Half-Orc Barbarian2/Champion+

IMO, 4 attacks is only level 20' I'd rather be Reckless for most of the game and swing one fewer time.

[Naanomi]

Two ways I see to optimize Champion (and stay Champion without multiclassing):
1) the half-orc crit fishing way
2) the 'maximize HP so half HP is more!' way: Hill Dwarf, max CON, Tough Feat, etc; for games going to high-level only

[Klorox]

Half Orc, and then two levels of Barbarian for Reckless Attack. Yeah, the extra attacks will be delayed two levels, but big crits come often and Reckless seriously increases damage output. Throw in GWM for more damage and when those crits hit another attack.

Half-Orc Barbarian2/Champion+

Oh, ok. But that would eliminate my ability to wear heavy armor.

Anyway, I've already got the 5th level champion. So you're suggesting character levels 6 and 7 go to barbarian?

[Zman]

Oh, ok. But that would eliminate my ability to wear heavy armor.

Anyway, I've already got the 5th level champion. So you're suggesting character levels 6 and 7 go to barbarian?
Yep, and that is just fine, the timing of the Barb levels isn't critical and Champion 5 is great if you want heavy armor. I built a TWF Barbarian/Champion and was also using Stealth and Medium Armor. Duel Wield was nice for the extra attack, though not as good as GWM obviously.

[Axorfett12]

A level in rogue could also give you expertise in athletics, making you a good grappler. Three levels in rogue gets you Assassin for auto crits in surprise rounds.

[Klorox]

A level in rogue could also give you expertise in athletics, making you a good grappler. Three levels in rogue gets you Assassin for auto crits in surprise rounds.

Interesting, although I'm not sure I'd go rogue in plate mail (my DEX is 13). When would you suggest adding in rogue levels?

[Axorfett12]

Your problem with rogue is that sneak attack requires a finesse weapon and there are currently no two handed finesse weapons. As a champion, this isn't the end of the world. You can select a second fighting style later on in your progression if you really want the bonus damage. If you added rogue levels, I'd do it after barbarian. Fighter 5, barbarian 2, rogue X.

[Klorox]

Your problem with rogue is that sneak attack requires a finesse weapon and there are currently no two handed finesse weapons. As a champion, this isn't the end of the world. You can select a second fighting style later on in your progression if you really want the bonus damage. If you added rogue levels, I'd do it after barbarian. Fighter 5, barbarian 2, rogue X.

Ahh, but there's the little trick. Although expensive as a 3 level investment, the assassin ability reads "auto crit" and says nothing about needing a finesse weapon.

[Axorfett12]

It does not need a finesse weapon. My point was that the 2d6 sneak attack is wasted with a 2 handed weapon. Whether the auto crit is worth 3 levels... up for debate. It is certainly useful for optimizing crits.

[Corran]

Optimizing the champion, ey? Get your hands on a vorpal (great)sword, that's the way to go!!! At 20 level, you have roughly a 63% chance per round to decapitate an enemy that is a valid target of the vorpal weapon's property. And this chance is without having advantage. Imagine if it was possible for vorpal polearms to exist...!:smalltongue:

[jas61292]

Optimizing the champion, ey? Get your hands on a vorpal (great)sword, that's the way to go!!! At 20 level, you have roughly a 63% chance per round to decapitate an enemy that is a valid target of the vorpal weapon's property. And this chance is without having advantage. Imagine if it was possible for vorpal polearms to exist...!:smalltongue:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a Vorpal Sword decapitates on a roll of 20, not on a crit. So a champion can't abuse it more than anyone else. But hey, at least the wording of the sword means it can decapitate guys in adamantine armor.

[Corran]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a Vorpal Sword decapitates on a roll of 20, not on a crit. So a champion can't abuse it more than anyone else. But hey, at least the wording of the sword means it can decapitate guys in adamantine armor.
Oh no.... masterplan failed!!! I put my tail between my legs and quietly flee this thread out of embarrassment...:smalltongue:


ps: Seriously though, thanks for the correction!

[djreynolds]

You are 5th level and are crit fishing. But to use barbarian you need medium armor to rage. So just grab 3 levels of barbarian, half plate will be 16AC with current dex of 13. But rage will fix that.

I would see if I could retrain since you are 5th and go champion 3/ barbarian X.

[ruy343]

I know that you're likely against multiclassing, but you might consider a MC to paladin, since it'll grant you the ability to choose when to add smite damage, and you can choose to add it after landing a crit. Also, you gain access to a second fighting style relatively early, and you can pick up a third one through champion, making you the ultimate switch-hitter. Vengeance paladin is a great choice for boosting your damage with Hunter's Mark, and it can grant you additional mobility.

[Easy_Lee]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a Vorpal Sword decapitates on a roll of 20, not on a crit. So a champion can't abuse it more than anyone else. But hey, at least the wording of the sword means it can decapitate guys in adamantine armor.

It's little things like that which make 5e feel so inconsistent, and necessitate a RAW thread. Shame.

To the OP, I agree with the others. 2 levels of barbarian for reckless, or more of you want other barbarian features. Champion 11 / Barbarian 9 is also an interesting option.

Edit: though obviously, you may not reach that level. IMO, your priorities are reckless, then extra attack (3).

[Spacehamster]

Champion 17, warlock 3. Darkness + Devils sight and possibility to use hex for more dice o double on your crits. :)

[Easy_Lee]

Champion 17, warlock 3. Darkness + Devils sight and possibility to use hex for more dice o double on your crits. :)

Screws over the rest of your party and gives the DM incentive to throw blindsight and tremorsense mobs at you.

[Spacehamster]

Screws over the rest of your party and gives the DM incentive to throw blindsight and tremorsense mobs at you.

Screws the party part is a myth, says nowhere in the rules that the party member has to attack the same Mob as you, plus the area of darkness is not big.

[Easy_Lee]

Screws the party part is a myth, says nowhere in the rules that the party member has to attack the same Mob as you, plus the area of darkness is not big.

In some situations, there will be nowhere to put it. Plus you have to go off on your own attacking one mob, while your party handles another. So it's situational unless the whole party is warlocks.

My other point, about the DM being encouraged to counter it, still stands. Is there a name for a playstyle which discourages the DM from countering or nullifying the player's choices?

[Spacehamster]

In some situations, there will be nowhere to put it. Plus you have to go off on your own attacking one mob, while your party handles another. So it's situational unless the whole party is warlocks.

My other point, about the DM being encouraged to counter it, still stands. Is there a name for a playstyle which discourages the DM from countering or nullifying the player's choices?

True but when you can't use darkness you can use hex instead, prefer darkness compared to barbarian way of getting advantage at least. :)

[Specter]

Optimizing a champion is all about getting

advantage on attacks and getting more dice damage.

Here a few ways to do each:

ADVANTAGE
• Stealth (duh)
• Greater Invisibility (ask the Wizard/Bard/etc.)
• Foresight (same as above)
• Reckless Attack (barb2)
• Vow of Enmity (vengeance paladin 3)
• Mounted Combatant (feat)
• Shield Master (feat)
• Grappler (feat)

MORE DICE
• Hunter's Mark (ranger 2)
• Hex (warlock 1)
• Divine Favor (paladin 2/war cleric 1)
• Crusader's Mantle (paladin 9; he can cast on many people)
• Poison (even the most basic one gives you 1d4 for a minute)

Now choose what's most flavorful to your character and go to war. If you have a decent WIS, I'd go War Cleric for the bonus action attacks (more hits) and Divine Favor.

[Easy_Lee]

Optimizing a champion is all about getting advantage on attacks and getting more dice damage.

Not all dice are doubled on a critical, and the ruling varies by table. The rule says that you double damage related to the attack, and specifically calls out sneak attack as being doubled. However, is Hex damage part of the attack, or added to the attack? What about Elemental Weapon? What about bonus fire or whatever damage inherent to the weapon? At some tables, only the weapon die and basically nothing else are doubled.

My ruling is much simpler. I just change the rule to be double damage from all sources and call it good enough. Doesn't make sense to me that spell attacks can critical, but spell buffs on weapons can't.

[jas61292]

Not all dice are doubled on a critical, and the ruling varies by table. The rule says that you double damage related to the attack, and specifically calls out sneak attack as being doubled. However, is Hex damage part of the attack, or added to the attack? What about Elemental Weapon? What about bonus fire or whatever damage inherent to the weapon? At some tables, only the weapon die and basically nothing else are doubled.

And those tables are wrong. All dice are doubled if they come directly from the attack. Could it have been a bit more clear? Maybe. But that is definitely the RAW. The only dice things you would not double would be those that come indirectly (like from a poison you have to first fail a save against).

[Easy_Lee]

And those tables are wrong. All dice are doubled if they come directly from the attack. Could it have been a bit more clear? Maybe. But that is definitely the RAW. The only dice things you would not double would be those that come indirectly (like from a poison you have to first fail a save against).

Well, if you don't double damage added by poison, why do you double damage added by hex, or elemental weapon, or hunter's mark? Is it because there's no save?

I agree these things should be doubled, but the rules are very unclear.

[uraniumrooster]

Optimizing a champion is all about getting advantage on attacks and getting more dice damage.

ADVANTAGE
• Vow of Enmity (vengeance paladin 3)

MORE DICE
• Hunter's Mark (ranger 2)


IIRC, don't Vengeance Paladins also get Hunter's Mark as an oath spell? Between Vow of Enmity, Hunter's Mark, and the ability to throw on extra smite damage after a crit, a GWM Champ/Vengeance Pally could be a pretty fun choice (albeit with a pretty limited pool of spells slots). Throw in Mounted Combatant and you have a badass cavalier build.

[Klorox]

You are 5th level and are crit fishing. But to use barbarian you need medium armor to rage. So just grab 3 levels of barbarian, half plate will be 16AC with current dex of 13. But rage will fix that.

I would see if I could retrain since you are 5th and go champion 3/ barbarian X.

I'm not looking to rage. I'm looking at reckless attack.

[Klorox]

I know that you're likely against multiclassing, but you might consider a MC to paladin, since it'll grant you the ability to choose when to add smite damage, and you can choose to add it after landing a crit. Also, you gain access to a second fighting style relatively early, and you can pick up a third one through champion, making you the ultimate switch-hitter. Vengeance paladin is a great choice for boosting your damage with Hunter's Mark, and it can grant you additional mobility.

I don't have the charisma to become a paladin.

[2D8HP]

I don't have the charisma to become a paladin.I've been bemoaning that myself, for decades now!

:wink:

[Specter]

I don't have the charisma to become a paladin.

You could tell us your stats.

[Klorox]

You could tell us your stats.

My bad! I thought I did!

Half orc, level 5 fighter (champion)
STR 20 DEX 13 CON 18 INT 9 WIS 13 CHA 10

I'll edit the original post.

[Specter]

Well then, Cleric and Ranger are available for MC. Ranger is good, but that first level is just good for skills. What seems more interesting is Divine Favor from War Cleric, only costs you a bonus action and gives you a lot of damage in the long run. But you should check if it fits your ideas.

[2D8HP]

My bad! I thought I did!

Half orc, level 5 fighter (champion)
STR 20 DEX 13 CON 18 INT 9 WIS 13 CHA 10. A level in Rogue for "Sneak Attack", and especially "Expertise", which for "Perception", "Stealth", or "Athletics" is wonderful.