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Acanous
2016-07-18, 04:09 AM
Hey all,
I'm playing a Cleric in a campaign and have partly by happenstance, partly by design, ended up with a fledgeling succubus cohort. From being imprisoned and mistreated by a bigger, badder demon to having to deal with mortals none too keen on her continued existence I've basically rescued her twice. Now she's re-evaluating her life choices and seriously considering being one of the good guys.

So basically after some roleplay she's decided to take up the longsword and become a Paladin of Heironeous. Or at least give it an honest try.

As a Knight Courageous of the Valorous Host, I've got enough pull to sponsor her for induction into the order... if she can prove she's actually repentant and willing to champion Law and Good.

To that extent, the local Paragon has set me the task of assigning her ten challenges to affirm her.

They can be basically anything I want, but I'm well enough up the chain to know that this is serious business and it can't be something like "kill that bugbear"... unless that bugbear is riding around on a dire wolf lopping heads from the town guard or something.

The church gave me a ten page folio on which I must record each of her challenges, so I'm trying to think up some good ones.

The challenges should be progressively more difficult
they should stress one or more virtues that Heironeous himself champions
they should all be lawful and good in nature, with some kind of "easy way" out that would constitute a failure.

As a player, I cannot create situations or encounters, but the DM has basically said if I pray for a test and offer a suggestion, the Arch-Paladin could make it happen. Or something close enough that I can recognize it as a challenge for her and not for the party.

I've already put some thought into it and feel that spending some time feeding the poor to display humility and a reverence for community could be one of the earlier challenges, but the rest are a bit murky.

Thoughts?

Fayd
2016-07-18, 12:29 PM
Unfortunately I don't know much about Heironeous... so I'm no help there.

Well, the succubus has an inherent ... nature, and I'm not talking about her subtyped evil or chaos. Design a few trials focused around her rejecting that... part... of her nature. Maybe reuniting lost lovers or aiding in rebuilding a failed relationship. Assist in the birth of a child conceived out of love. In a more metaphorical sense, help a farmer in preparing the field for the spring? Meditate for a long period of time in a prepared place that dulls all of her senses?

Inevitability
2016-07-18, 12:48 PM
Defend a man who has been unjustly sentenced to death.

Save a fair maiden from a dragon.

Wash herself with holy water. If she's not evil anymore, it shouldn't be harmful.

Serve in a hospital for a day.

Find a foe who has personally wronged the succubus, and make her bring them to justice. She can't kill the villain: he deserves a trial.

THEChanger
2016-07-18, 01:14 PM
-Have her tend to a rock garden for 101 days.

This trial is less about [Good] and more about [Law], which while less important to the Paladin is still important, especially for Heironeans. It tests her discipline, and her willingness to submit to the authority of those higher ranked in the order. Especially if every evening, the garden is disturbed again. The task seems a pointless one, but by engaging with the inanimate stone, tending to that which derives no benefit from being tended to, the task becomes and end unto itself. The lesson here is that one does not do Good or obey Law to gain something in return. One does Good and obeys Law because it is what must be done. The test can be replaced with any repetitive task, or even meditation. It should likely be a later test, after the succubus has garnered some progress towards Good. The easy way out here is simply the refusal of the task, falling to laziness, or cheating in some way. The best part is that this test can be repeated - as long as she has the will to keep trying to improve, she can always come back.

-Trust in the strength of your arms and your battle-siblings

Heironeous, whatever else he is, is a God of War. Supposing that a threat comes to a small, defenseless village, give the succubus armor, a sword, and a shield, and send her to defend it with other warriors of the Lightning God. However, there is a catch. A succubus has a number of abilities that, while not strictly Evil in nature, could make such an encounter trivial. Charm Monster, Suggestion, Greater Teleport, Ethereal Jaunt, flight. She cannot use these. Even if the battle seems lost, she must show she has faith in the strength of her steel, the warriors around her, and Heironeous to watch over them. Defend the village with nothing but your strong arm and those who fight by your side.

-The Impossible Choice

This would be, if used, the last test. The Demon who you saved her from comes to the Material Plane, and captures you. She tracks him down, as he stands above a city. Laughing, he asks her to choose. Shall he destroy the city, or you? The lives of countless innocents, or the life of her mentor, her friend, the only person to have believed she could be something more?

This is an impossible choice. Neither option is Good. Either choice could cause the fall of a Paladin. It is impossible, however, because it is a false choice. The Good choice is to throw herself against the Demon, do her best to distract it, best it, defeat it before it can harm anyone. Choosing this shows the Demon to be an illusion - neither the city nor you were in any harm to begin with.

Cluedrew
2016-07-18, 02:05 PM
The Trial of Ignorance:
It is called such not because it is about ignorance, but because it is taken in ignorance. Test how they behave when no one is looking. How exactly you administer this can very on the situation. In the set-ups I have seen it used it is almost always the last trial (or second last if they have something meta-physical for the last one).

The Trial of Empathy:
Live in the conditions of the weakest and lowest urchin in the land for a week. That is dress in rages, go out in the cold and scavenge for food. Proceeded by a fast so they don't go into it in top condition. It is not really supposed to fail anyone, it is really about understanding the situation of the down trodden.

The Trial of Endurance:
Not physical endurance (although they are lead to believe that) but rather they are given an impossible task that they are allowed to attempt until they compete it. Obviously they can't, it is about patience and continuing to try in the face of futility. Maybe not necessarily good (determination and calm are not ethical) but depending on how close to the main theme you want them to be.

The Trial of Scales:
Given a series of ethical dilemmas, explain the best solutions to each and why it is so. They should be gray enough that textbook solutions do not work, mostly it is about the explanation to why. Even so it is probably an easier trial, should come earlier.

Segev
2016-07-18, 02:23 PM
Have her teach a class at the local wizards' university. Specifically, she has to help them learn some arcane theories regarding demonology. Make sure they're one of the more unruly classes, and are mostly teenaged males.

The most obvious challenge is simply getting them to pay attention. She has...obvious...means of doing this, but if she's to be learning to put aside her baser nature, she shouldn't be using her ability to bend men's wills on these (highly susceptible) youths. Nor appealing to THEIR base natures. This need not be said overtly, as long as the lesson has been imparted in the relatively recent past about what is and is not appropriate behavior.

The second part of the challenge is the actual teaching. While she certainly has knowledge of demonology, her usual experiences will be more in use of it for evil spellcasting and summoning. She will probably have to study and research, herself, to get knowledge of Good applications of the subject.

This test will take dedication and effort in ways that are not natural for her, while a natural, "easy way out" exists for both major parts of the challenge. This is a microcosm of the way she must fight her very essence (she is [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtyped!) to align herself with the Paladin's code.

You could probably work additional, meaningful tests into this if she can work with individual students. A shy wizard apprentice might be approachable through his earnest crush on a young lady; the succubus could try seducing him (easy way to "solve" his problem by teaching him the easy way to sate his lusts), or she could try to actually help him build confidence all without resorting to nor giving in to her own tendencies. She doubtless knows how to set up a relationship, even if she'll, again, have to work to take her normally perverse and twisted approach into something wholesome.

In addition, the "harder" tests can seem to tempt her more and more to use her past experience. The keys to them will be not in rejecting her knowledge, but in rejecting the use of it to dig herself deeper. Take it and twist it to something wholesome, the way she once twisted the wholesome to perversion. It will make her stronger, and help her identify right from wrong in truth rather than trapping herself into a mold she cannot hope to fit (thus leading her ripe for backsliding and frustration).

LoyalPaladin
2016-07-18, 03:51 PM
Huh. This is a pretty awesome circumstance to be a part of! If she's proving herself, I'd say have her prove herself according the Easy Damus' Ten Commandments of Lawful Good (http://www.easydamus.com/lawfulgood.html). All of these should be reasonably difficult for her, as she's a Chaotic Evil outsider.

I'll list them and suggest a quest below!

1. You shall not lie.

Have her explain her history/backstory to a council. Make sure there is some sort of mind reader / zone of truth / someone with a crazy high sense motive present.

2. You shall not harm the innocent.

Have her go on an errand for the church where she comes across multiple beggars that are incredibly insistent/annoying but that do nothing wrong.

3. You shall not murder.

Do something similar to Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood introductory quest, where she is told to kill the sinner. Since she does not have that information, she should not kill anyone.

4. You shall help the needy.

Gold probably has very little weight on a succubus, so I'd say give her something she wants dearly (which I can't decide on, since I don't know this character), but also give her the option to give whatever that is to a poor family so that they can sell it and eat for a year.

5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes goodness.

This is probably the easiest. Paladin boot camp. She's miles above the standard level 1 paladin recruits and probably even most of the instructors. But if she wants to be redeemed, she's got to take their same path. Lets see if she can take orders from someone so far below her power level.

6. You shall follow the law.

Have her go on patrol for a large city. She must keep the peace and enforce the law, but she must also lead by example.

7. You shall not betray others.

This might serve well as her final test. At the end of her grueling trials and tribulations, have an apparition or illusion of her old demonic overlord appear and offer her the world. If she goes with him, she has failed. If she stays with her cleric, she passes.

8. You shall bring criminals and evil-doers to justice.

A montage of bounty hunting missions or sitting in on court cases might do this well. She has to know that not all forms of justice involve a sharp blade and deft swing.

9. You shall not steal.

Leave her alone near the Iron Gauntlet of War (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Iron_Gauntlet_of_War), which just so happens to be in your church's vault.

10. You shall seek unlimited good for others and unlimited order in society.

She must meditate for 10 days, praying to Heironeous for forgiveness and redemption.


I hope some or all of these are helpful to you!

Seto
2016-07-18, 03:57 PM
-Have her tend to a rock garden for 101 days.

This trial is less about [Good] and more about [Law], which while less important to the Paladin is still important, especially for Heironeans. It tests her discipline, and her willingness to submit to the authority of those higher ranked in the order. Especially if every evening, the garden is disturbed again. The task seems a pointless one, but by engaging with the inanimate stone, tending to that which derives no benefit from being tended to, the task becomes and end unto itself. The lesson here is that one does not do Good or obey Law to gain something in return. One does Good and obeys Law because it is what must be done. The test can be replaced with any repetitive task, or even meditation. It should likely be a later test, after the succubus has garnered some progress towards Good. The easy way out here is simply the refusal of the task, falling to laziness, or cheating in some way. The best part is that this test can be repeated - as long as she has the will to keep trying to improve, she can always come back.

-Trust in the strength of your arms and your battle-siblings

Heironeous, whatever else he is, is a God of War. Supposing that a threat comes to a small, defenseless village, give the succubus armor, a sword, and a shield, and send her to defend it with other warriors of the Lightning God. However, there is a catch. A succubus has a number of abilities that, while not strictly Evil in nature, could make such an encounter trivial. Charm Monster, Suggestion, Greater Teleport, Ethereal Jaunt, flight. She cannot use these. Even if the battle seems lost, she must show she has faith in the strength of her steel, the warriors around her, and Heironeous to watch over them. Defend the village with nothing but your strong arm and those who fight by your side.


Gods, I am SO not Lawful.

Segev
2016-07-18, 04:01 PM
Gods, I am SO not Lawful.

With that screen name? I'm not surprised!

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/tenchi/images/c/c4/Setoyall.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130112210814

Red Fel
2016-07-18, 04:10 PM
Have her work in an orphanage or soup kitchen. Put her up in a nearby hotel - a very nice, comfortable place - and have her go to work every day for a long period (say a month or two) in a run-down place tending to the particularly destitute. Aside from that, leave her to her own devices, but quietly and unobtrusively supervise her. Periodically check in, ask how she is doing.

If she is developing a moral compass, one of the first things you should be seeing is guilt. She should be contrasting how she lives - a comfortable room, good food, warm bath, etc. - with how the people in her care live. If she asks to be moved to more humble surroundings, or if she asks that the money spent on her be spent on those in her care, you're making progress.

Reveal that the orphanage / soup kitchen is strapped for cash. Offer her the opportunity to take side jobs for money. These are in addition to her work at the orphanage / soup kitchen, meaning she has even less free time, and she keeps none of the money she makes for herself. If she works overtime, everything goes to those in her care. If she does so, she is showing dedication and selflessness; if she refuses to take on additional work, or if she pockets some of the profits, she fails.

Make sure that this all occurs in a crime-ridden or otherwise corrupt neighborhood, such that there is opportunity for "easy money" as opposed to "honest money." See if she jumps at the chance for a big payoff (that would come at some moral cost) as opposed to an honest wage. If she seeks out money through dirty deeds, even though she would pay it all to those in her care, it shows a mentality of expedience over earnest hard work - LG has little patience for those who choose the easy way over the right way, though they may have the best of reasons, particularly when the subject is a Chaotic Evil Outsider whose moral compass is yet unproven. If on the other hand she keeps focused on her honest labor, and manages to balance it with her work at the soup kitchen / orphanage, and keeps nothing for herself, good work.

At the end of her time of service, offer her a token reward - pretty and moderately valuable. Not of great notice to an adventurer, but worth a lot to those she has helped. See if she spares them a second thought once freed of the burden of caring for them. If she asks to sell it and give the proceeds to them, good work; if she keeps it, fail.

Basically, this is one scenario with a series of pitfalls. If she succumbs to any of them, she fails. If, however, she asks about the right course of action, she receives partial credit - she at least recognizes that she has a distance to go. If she fails, she fails; if she completes the task but with assistance, she does not fail, but does not receive credit for having completed the task, and must undertake another in its place; if she succeeds without aid, she has shown selflessness, dedication, diligence, and compassion.

And then there's one less Demon for me to deal with. Good job.

Seto
2016-07-18, 04:11 PM
With that screen name? I'm not surprised!

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/tenchi/images/c/c4/Setoyall.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130112210814

Haha, thanks for the reference! I did not know this anime but now I've looked it up!

Segev
2016-07-18, 04:32 PM
Haha, thanks for the reference! I did not know this anime but now I've looked it up!

There are at least 3, probably closer to 6, distinct Tenchi continuities. That particular image (and the most characterization that character's gotten, that I've seen) is from Tenchi Muyo: GXP, which shares a continuity with Tenchi Muyo! the OVA (all three of them).

I personally really enjoy it; I hope you do, too! (She is a side character, but...influential.)


(The other two continuities I am certain of are Tenchi Universe, which was sort of the Fullmetal Alchemist to the OVA's "Brotherhood", and the Tenchi in Tokyo one which...I don't recommend.)



Red Fel, I fear I must disagree with you. Those tests feel a little too...gotcha. The kind of thing they'll encourage is looking for hidden tests with defined "right" answers, more than really feeling the things desired.

I know plenty of legitimately good people who wouldn't think that they need to give up everything to help some poor people. Many would want to help out, and would look for ways to do so, but "I should live less well" isn't, by itself, even all that moral a choice. Asking that the money be spent otherwise would be a good move, but it requires thinking about that money spent on your housing as if it were yours, or yours to dictate the use of.

This could be helped a bit if the succubus were given a stipend and arrangements for a nice, pricey inn made for her to stay in, which her stipend helps to pay for. Then she has the money in hand and is responsible for caring for herself and what she does with it. Makes the "give to others" thing work a little more smoothly.

Frankly, though, "you should take hard jobs that pay little over easy ones that pay a lot" is not a good lesson, either, from the Good or even Lawful perspective. She's a powerful demon; she could go do some legitimate adventuring and bring back her loot from that to pay off debts without crossing any lines that a paladin wouldn't.

Heck, she could totally honestly morph herself into an appealing form and try to fund-raise using naught but her charisma. And be VERY good at it.

I think my objection to your proposed tests is just that they treat "out of the box" thinking as "failure" conditions, with solutions that are almost too pat. Even leaving out how they're probably wastes of her talents. And I don't mean her Chaotic Evil ones.

Acanous
2016-07-18, 07:06 PM
God I hope the DM doesn't have her "Assets" named "Chaotic" and "Evil"

Reboot
2016-07-18, 07:26 PM
Now she's re-evaluating her life choices and seriously considering being one of the good guys.

So basically after some roleplay she's decided to take up the longsword and become a Paladin of Heironeous. Or at least give it an honest try.


I'm curious how you got to the point succubus is trying to be a *paladin* in the first place. "Seriously considering being one of the good guys" is one thing, a CE-subtyped demon trying to enter a class where they not only need to be LG, but follow a code even *stricter* than plain-LG seems like setting her up to fail, Icarus-style.



Wash herself with holy water. If she's not evil anymore, it shouldn't be harmful.


Pretty sure it would very certainly harm. The succubi are *made* of CE - infamously, the WotC succubus paladin pinged on Detect Good, Detect Law, Detect Chaos AND Detect Evil! - even a Helm of Opposite Alignment wouldn't change that, let alone one simply trying to be LG.

veti
2016-07-18, 07:31 PM
The trial of My Name Is Earl:

Have her make a list of everyone she's ever wronged. "Redemption" is solely at the discretion of the gods, but in order to qualify for paladinhood, she has to get every single one of those people, individually, to forgive her.

A single abstention, and she's out.

She has to seek them out and do whatever it takes to get them to support her. Naturally, anything Evil would disqualify her immediately.

THEChanger
2016-07-18, 07:55 PM
The trial of My Name Is Earl:

Have her make a list of everyone she's ever wronged. "Redemption" is solely at the discretion of the gods, but in order to qualify for paladinhood, she has to get every single one of those people, individually, to forgive her.

A single abstention, and she's out.

She has to seek them out and do whatever it takes to get them to support her. Naturally, anything Evil would disqualify her immediately.

Considering that many of the people she would have wronged would be other Demons, performing Evil acts would become a requisite for completing such a challenge. Perhaps not applicable in this specific circumstance.

Red Fel
2016-07-18, 08:18 PM
Red Fel, I fear I must disagree with you. Those tests feel a little too...gotcha. The kind of thing they'll encourage is looking for hidden tests with defined "right" answers, more than really feeling the things desired.

*SNIP*

Frankly, though, "you should take hard jobs that pay little over easy ones that pay a lot" is not a good lesson, either, from the Good or even Lawful perspective. She's a powerful demon; she could go do some legitimate adventuring and bring back her loot from that to pay off debts without crossing any lines that a paladin wouldn't.

Ordinarily, I would agree with you. I dislike "gotcha" tactics. But I chose this one for three reasons.

First, this isn't an ordinary person. An intelligent creature native to the Material has a moral compass. Barring certain mental compulsions or disorders, most have at least a general concept of "right" and "wrong" by adulthood, and as such, it's reasonable to give them a bit of leeway when engaging with moral decisions. Most mortal creatures are not born of alignment extremes, and need not veer sharply in either direction. But this isn't that - this is a Succubus, a being literally formed from Cosmic Evil. It is vital that she show not only that she can be generally Good, but profoundly Good, for just that reason. She is born of one extreme - she needs to show the ability, at least for a brief period, to live in the other. Any Outsider can put on a show of turning over a new leaf; all the more reason to make it unforgivingly hard.

Second, I didn't say she had to do it without guidance. You'll note that I included a clause that would permit her to ask her supervisor for help and advice. And that should be encouraged - it's not an easy path she seeks to walk. True, she won't get credit for proving her virtue on her own, but neither should she be penalized for not yet fully grasping what needs to be done, particularly if she has the sense to know that she doesn't know.

And third, this is an NPC. Were it a PC, I would find "gotcha" trials repellent, because a single failure could ruin a character's play. But this is an NPC, and there are always other options. If she fails? Perhaps she can try again. Perhaps she can find a different religion. She doesn't have a carefully-designed build that requires her to be able to do X, Y, and Z to be effective - as an NPC, she has that flexibility. Because - here's the other thing - the same person in charge of this NPC is also in charge of all other circumstances. The DM can decree that she completed the trials successfully, and she will have done so. Or, to put it more simply, if the DM wants her to pass, she will pass; the rest is just for show, narrative, and character development.


Heck, she could totally honestly morph herself into an appealing form and try to fund-raise using naught but her charisma. And be VERY good at it.

And basically do good by appealing to man's base, prurient nature. Not sure that the religious order in question would smile on that. The goal is to show that she can control her demonic nature, not that she relies on it.


I think my objection to your proposed tests is just that they treat "out of the box" thinking as "failure" conditions, with solutions that are almost too pat. Even leaving out how they're probably wastes of her talents. And I don't mean her Chaotic Evil ones.

Put yourself in the position of a Church Inquisitor. They have in their presence a Demon claiming to seek redemption. Do you honestly think that even the most charitable among them is going to give her multiple choices? They're going to be as severe and narrow in their expectations as possible. If she can't work within stringently narrow confines in order to prove her worth, how can she claim she will adhere to the strict dogmas of an LG faith? How will she demonstrate her desire to be L instead of C, and G instead of E?


Considering that many of the people she would have wronged would be other Demons, performing Evil acts would become a requisite for completing such a challenge. Perhaps not applicable in this specific circumstance.

Don't be silly. Demons aren't people.

Also, pretty sure that many of the people she has wronged are now not so much "people" as "corpses" or "disembodied souls in constant torment." So there's that.

Reboot
2016-07-18, 08:18 PM
Red Fel, I fear I must disagree with you. Those tests feel a little too...gotcha. The kind of thing they'll encourage is looking for hidden tests with defined "right" answers, more than really feeling the things desired.

Yeah. The people setting these tests are Lawful *and* Good. "Gotchas" shouldn't be in their nature - even an open-ended trial, without a single "defined" goal, should have the understanding that you're testing as much her motive as her actions. LE follows the *letter* of the law, CG follows the *spirit* of the law, LG must follow the letter *and* spirit of the law. (Assuming reasonably just laws, of course) Whatever the basic intentions, you're tending chaotic if you have "hidden" victory conditions that she wouldn't necessarily expect. Remember what she's always known, which needs to be factored in.

One thing you could do is, for the duration of her trials, make her take a vow of poverty-type oath. No magic items; no armour; no clothing beyond that required for modesty(!) & protection, with only plain fabrics allowed; only basic living conditions; no meat; no liquid to drink but water; no coin to spend except on the above - any other coin or trinket gained must be used on making people's lives better. Allow your cleric or whoever to guide her on the last condition in the early stages - she needs to be taught to live a LG life, after all - and only once she's been going long enough to have the idea should guidance be gradually limited.

snacksmoto
2016-07-18, 09:02 PM
Perhaps one incident could cover various duties of the code. The party could be tracking a large and dangerous monster, perhaps even a group of them. Sounds of fighting are heard and the party finds a large village that has been attacked by whatever they're tracking. Numerous dead and injured are around and the monsters are spotted leaving, or have very recently left and the survivors can point the way.

The "easy" way out would be to continue chasing the monsters, leaving the villagers to their fate. The Cleric would likely insist on staying to help. The villagers no longer have the manpower to defend themselves from roving predators and scavengers. The blood and corpses are quite the lure. There are far more injured than their healing abilities and supplies can handle. If they stay to help, they'll have to help fight off predators looking for an easy meal. Additional defenders are few and their morale is excessively low. The party's resources should be extremely taxed to the point where they can't help everyone. After all their healing abilities and supplies are expended, more heavily wounded and dying are brought in. Many won't survive long enough for the party to recoup healing spells. Perhaps some will die and the party can't do anything about it.

After a day or two of helping the village recover and survive, the monsters are sighted returning to the village. Ideally, it will happen when the party has a lot of expended resources and no time to recover. They'll have to stand and fight. They will have the resource of a ragtag group of villagers and be able to set the defense and, likely, location of attack to their advantage.

If the party takes the "easy" way out, they're still in for a tough fight against monster(s) that cut through the villagers with ease. They'll have to fight at a location that won't be scouted and probably not advantageous. They'll have no other backup. If the villagers even survive, the party would likely be viewed unfavourably for "abandoning" them in their time of need.

The trials for the Paladin-to-be aren't the "here's a good act, go do it" but that of *how* they act in times of need.

veti
2016-07-18, 09:18 PM
Don't be silly. Demons aren't people.

Also, pretty sure that many of the people she has wronged are now not so much "people" as "corpses" or "disembodied souls in constant torment." So there's that.

That's okay, 'Speak With Dead' is a thing. It's up to her to find something that those people want done, that she can do for them. Whether it's giving their children or descendants a helping hand, or supporting a cause, or punishing a wrongdoer, or whatever. The only criterion is that they have to agree to it.

It's not meant to be easy, and it's not meant to be quick. I wouldn't expect her to complete it in this campaign. Maybe if the next one is set 200 years in the future, she might have done it by then.

It's meant to demonstrate, one, that she understands the wrongs that she did, and why they were wrong; two, that she is genuinely sorry for them; and three, that she has a working moral compass of her own. And most importantly of all, to clear her own conscience. Because a paladin's conscience is important - if she has the weight of centuries of crimes bearing down on her, she'll always be vulnerable to such sins as self-loathing and despair, which have been used to turn more than one paladin in the past.

Reboot
2016-07-18, 09:22 PM
Put yourself in the position of a Church Inquisitor. They have in their presence a Demon claiming to seek redemption. Do you honestly think that even the most charitable among them is going to give her multiple choices? They're going to be as severe and narrow in their expectations as possible. If she can't work within stringently narrow confines in order to prove her worth, how can she claim she will adhere to the strict dogmas of an LG faith? How will she demonstrate her desire to be L instead of C, and G instead of E?

This is where I think shooting for paladinhood is basically setting her up to fail. To all appearances, the character is working on little more than "being part of the evil hierarchy got me hurt" and "well, maybe if I try being good I won't get hurt again". For a subtypes [Chaotic] and [Evil] character to make it all the way to Lawful Good alignment is virtually impossible, and would require some SERIOUS motivation (well, that or a Helm of Opposite Alignment).

Maybe if she focused on being Good, and aimed (essentially) for CG... she'd still be battling her own nature, but not her entire nature. And if she somehow made it there (with patient tutelage), after a couple of decades of successfully holding that alignment she could maybe start to think about working for Lawful, and then if she made it there start to think about paladinhood. Right now, she's a newborn baby trying to pass a physics degree.

Acanous
2016-07-18, 09:31 PM
I'm envisioning this discussion as a conclave of clerics deciding on the trials. It's a cool mental image.

From what I know of her background, there's no one still alive and human whom she's wronged. (She's been bound a long while, by a dwarf that retired from adventuring and later died of old age. She was released with 12 other demons as a plot thing earlier) Maybe an elf, but I don't know how we'd identify them.

That's also one of the things that went into her deciding on a different life path.

Rockphed
2016-07-18, 10:21 PM
This is where I think shooting for paladinhood is basically setting her up to fail. To all appearances, the character is working on little more than "being part of the evil hierarchy got me hurt" and "well, maybe if I try being good I won't get hurt again". For a subtypes [Chaotic] and [Evil] character to make it all the way to Lawful Good alignment is virtually impossible, and would require some SERIOUS motivation (well, that or a Helm of Opposite Alignment).

Maybe if she focused on being Good, and aimed (essentially) for CG... she'd still be battling her own nature, but not her entire nature. And if she somehow made it there (with patient tutelage), after a couple of decades of successfully holding that alignment she could maybe start to think about working for Lawful, and then if she made it there start to think about paladinhood. Right now, she's a newborn baby trying to pass a physics degree.

I disagree. While trying to become a Paladin is hard, a Succubus is an intelligent creature who gets to make choices. If she could not make choices, she would not be evil. The goal of the tasks is not, per se, to reforge her as a paragon of goodness and law in one fell swoop. Nor is it to test that she has become a paragon of goodness and law. The point of the tests is to see if she has become good enough and is dedicated to becoming better and more disciplined. As such, tests should see whether she is willing and able to stick with things even when the going gets tough. Tests should not be "impossible tasks" or "hidden victories", but should be straightforward explorations of what it means to be good and just. Hunting down a villain and dragging him to justice despite his best attempts to commit suicide by paladin is a good test. The "Trust in yourself and your fellow man" test is likewise a suitable task, with one caveat: several of the abilities mentioned were methods of moving quickly about a battlefield and could be used to great effect to turn a losing battle into a winning one, or even just to save a comrade whose position is being overrun.

The only task I can think of is setting her to be a guardian angel for an innocent child for a journey. She'll be forbidden from using preemptive violence or from using her charm-person portfolio, but shapeshifting is probably a bonus for this sort of thing. A pass would be if the child go to their destination safely and did not know the provenance of their uneventful journey. A minimal body count is also desirable.

Reboot
2016-07-18, 10:22 PM
I'm envisioning this discussion as a conclave of clerics deciding on the trials. It's a cool mental image.

From what I know of her background, there's no one still alive and human whom she's wronged. (She's been bound a long while, by a dwarf that retired from adventuring and later died of old age. She was released with 12 other demons as a plot thing earlier) Maybe an elf, but I don't know how we'd identify them.

That's also one of the things that went into her deciding on a different life path.

One possibility, if she's serious about this and faced with some understandably-sceptical clerics/paladins, is the geas (quest) option for a first step. Doubly so if she suggests it to them herself (albeit probably having been suggested to her privately by her sponsor).

She doesn't really know how to be Lawful or Good. She may not even truly understand the concepts, and she's working from a perspective that - from what you say - isn't exactly "good for Good's sake", more "my life as Evil went wrong, let's try something different". (Not quite sure how being imprisoned for... a century, maybe?... along with a dozen other demons by a presumably-Good dwarf helps her down the path to Good, except maybe in some kind of "might makes right" sense, but you've done the RP and I haven't...)

So she stands there and lets them geas her to act in a LG way for a time (probably need to be more specific in the wording than that). Not as an end in and of itself, but as "training wheels" to *learn* what she needs to do to be L and G, when she doesn't really know what they are and needs to find out.


I disagree. While trying to become a Paladin is hard, a Succubus is an intelligent creature who gets to make choices. If she could not make choices, she would not be evil. The goal of the tasks is not, per se, to reforge her as a paragon of goodness and law in one fell swoop. Nor is it to test that she has become a paragon of goodness and law. The point of the tests is to see if she has become good enough and is dedicated to becoming better and more disciplined. As such, tests should see whether she is willing and able to stick with things even when the going gets tough. Tests should not be "impossible tasks" or "hidden victories", but should be straightforward explorations of what it means to be good and just. Hunting down a villain and dragging him to justice despite his best attempts to commit suicide by paladin is a good test. The "Trust in yourself and your fellow man" test is likewise a suitable task, with one caveat: several of the abilities mentioned were methods of moving quickly about a battlefield and could be used to great effect to turn a losing battle into a winning one, or even just to save a comrade whose position is being overrun.
You're right and you're wrong. A [Chaotic] [Evil] being deciding to become a LG paladin is like a crack cocaine addict deciding to quit cold turkey. Impossible? No, the addict can choose to try, but the deck is stacked against them successfully quitting something so incredibly addictive that it's deep within their nature. That's why they're "always Chaotic Evil" even if they can notionally choose to become otherwise.

THEChanger
2016-07-19, 12:51 AM
Don't be silly. Demons aren't people.

Also, pretty sure that many of the people she has wronged are now not so much "people" as "corpses" or "disembodied souls in constant torment." So there's that.

Now now, my friend. Ordinarily I'd agree wholeheartedly that demons are creatures so far removed from mortal experience that our definitions of 'person' don't really apply. The same for Archons, Guardinals, whatever the hells Chaotic Good Exemplars are, Slaad, Inevitables, Yuguloth, and yes, even Devils. But we have here an example of a Demon who has enough sense of will and individuality to fight against that intrinsic programming, or at least want to. In whatever universe this question is posed, at least this Demon seems to qualify for Personhood, and I'd wager plenty of other Demons do as well.

Just, y'know, awful Personhood. Personhood with a side of screaming. Still people who deserve to be wiped from existence, if for no other reason than to protect everyone else. But people.

Cluedrew
2016-07-19, 08:08 AM
A very interesting point is how much does she have to reject who she was and how much does she have to control that.

For instance is flaunting her charisma good or bad? There are certain types of "flaunting" that should be discouraged, but if she does become a noble, brave and just paladin does adding sexy and charming to that list make her any less good? I mean maybe she should cut her hair unevenly and smear her face with mud to help separate her from who she was, it would make a good trial to learn other ways, but... does that help anybody, does it make her more pure?

I think in the case of Lawful Good it isn't really an issue, but taking about a particular type of paladin it becomes a little more gray.

Reboot
2016-07-19, 09:57 AM
A very interesting point is how much does she have to reject who she was and how much does she have to control that.

For instance is flaunting her charisma good or bad? There are certain types of "flaunting" that should be discouraged, but if she does become a noble, brave and just paladin does adding sexy and charming to that list make her any less good? I mean maybe she should cut her hair unevenly and smear her face with mud to help separate her from who she was, it would make a good trial to learn other ways, but... does that help anybody, does it make her more pure?
I think this is something that would be useful in terms of proving that she's serious about this - if she forswears her demonic powers (and possibly even agrees to have them magically suppressed), save for polymorphing into a human form, for the duration of one or all of her trials... that's a sacrifice, and part of paladinhood is being *able* to sacrifice. (Since it's a religious order, like how in many religions, fasting is an important thing to some extent.) But I don't think it's something that should be permanent - as a fully-fledged paladin, by all means she should be able to use all her non-[Evil] powers in service of the code.


I think in the case of Lawful Good it isn't really an issue, but taking about a particular type of paladin it becomes a little more gray.
I don't even see it as necessarily a LG thing. Maybe a "this order" or "this god" thing - and from a quick search, Heironeous perhaps more than most... - but as long as she doesn't try to deceive, break up couples, leave a trail of STDs, etc, there should be no inherent prohibition on a LG person having sex or being charming.

Segev
2016-07-19, 01:27 PM
Ordinarily, I would agree with you. I dislike "gotcha" tactics. But I chose this one for three reasons.

First, this isn't an ordinary person. An intelligent creature native to the Material has a moral compass. ... Any Outsider can put on a show of turning over a new leaf; all the more reason to make it unforgivingly hard.The problem I have is that the test as you've outlined is a lot easier to put on a "show" with than to do correctly. It will yield more false positives and false negatives than true detections.


Second, I didn't say she had to do it without guidance. You'll note that I included a clause that would permit her to ask her supervisor for help and advice. And that should be encouraged - it's not an easy path she seeks to walk. I noted it. I... well, forgive me for dipping into my real-world expertise for a moment, but it seems like it's more prone to over-learning and rote memorization than it is to actually training or testing on validation data.



And basically do good by appealing to man's base, prurient nature. Not sure that the religious order in question would smile on that. The goal is to show that she can control her demonic nature, not that she relies on it.Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean "appealing" as in "hot and seductive chick all the guys drool over and want to impress." I meant "appealing" as in "not obviously a demon from the lower planes."

I don't think assuming the form of an attractive, but modestly dressed and chastely behaved woman is appealing to base nature. The challenge there, of course, would be to avoid slipping into that pattern of teasing and sex appeal. But when I said she would be very good at it, I meant it in the same way I'd say a bard or paladin who was dedicated to fund raising would be good at it: high charisma and social skills means she can be very persuasive and communicate genuine need in a totally virtuous way.


Put yourself in the position of a Church Inquisitor. They have in their presence a Demon claiming to seek redemption. Do you honestly think that even the most charitable among them is going to give her multiple choices? They're going to be as severe and narrow in their expectations as possible. If she can't work within stringently narrow confines in order to prove her worth, how can she claim she will adhere to the strict dogmas of an LG faith? How will she demonstrate her desire to be L instead of C, and G instead of E?Honestly? I wouldn't be looking to test her this early. I'd be looking to teach. And that's why I suggested a "test" which is more likely to cause her to have to run up against the difficulties and recognize the obvious pitfalls, then find a way to resolve them. Something which will force her, if she's to be successful, to make personal connections in situations where she can't just sexually/emotionally manipulate everybody; ideally, she will come to care for them, herself.

I'm not positive that would work, mind; being literally made of cosmic evil might mean she doesn't respond the same way.

If she fails these tests in a way that tells me she simply lacks the nature to be ABLE to learn it the way humanoids do, I would shift tactics to discussion of enlightened self-interest, because let's be honest...that's what's spurring her to try this in the first place. "Evil has only hurt me; maybe good will benefit me." Well, yes. It will. If you do it right. It may behoove her to understand intellectually WHY, if she isn't emotionally equipped to figure it out instinctively the way most living races do.

Acanous
2016-07-25, 02:05 AM
Update:
So I gave her a small trial, helping a party of lv 1 adventurers to investigate a mine that had suddenly gone silent. There were undead and a cave in, and something that got released from the deeps.

Miners got rescued, nothing was stolen, and the thing from the deep got re-sealed by an engineered tunnel collapse until a message could be sent to the church and more capable adventurers contacted.

Some humility, teamwork, and prioritizing lives over loot, there. Checked one off.