Low CHA bladelock? "Shillelock"?

[Millstone85]

I am still playing my warlock with Pact of the Chain and I think the superior familiar with the long range telepathy invocation makes this a really cool option. The Pact of the Tome is probably a better deal overall with its many cantrips and rituals, including shillelagh and a regular familiar, but it is a choice.

Now, I want to have another character ready in case this one dies. In another thread, I talked about rolling the race, background and ability scores before choosing the class. But I also have this idea for another warlock, with a different patron/pact combo. Someone who would have sought a fey blade in order to slay the aberrations the first warlock worked with.

However, I am having a harder time seeing what the Pact of the Blade has got over Tome with shillelagh. We are on the Sword Coast so booming blade and other such cantrips are on the menu, and I think booming blade works with the War Caster feat's opportunity attack. Those can be used with either pact so it seems to me that the only thing Pact of the Blade would bring to the table is the Lifedrinker invocation at 12th level, which is not that great.

Unless... Whether you use DEX or CHA for your melee attacks, you still need high DEX for your AC, rigth? Meanwhile, there are a number of interesting warlock spells that do not care about your spellcasting ability, including booming blade and a few archfey spells. So perhaps Blade would allow a less MAD character with a DEX-focused build.

Thoughts?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Bladelock gets extra attacks and extra damage on a hit-- you don't want to dump Charisma for that reason, at least if you expect to get to 12th level. You can sort of simulate it with Shillelagh+SCAG cantrips, but you can sort of simulate a Tomelock with the Ritual Caster feat (there aren't many rituals that Wizards don't get), so... <shrug>.

[Giant2005]

A single attack with a SCAG cantrip compares well to 2 attacks, but it does not compare well to 3. 3, which can be easily obtained via Polearm Master. That is the main difference you are missing. That difference is further compounded by on-hit effects like Hex, which is at least twice as valuable on a Bladelock using attacks over a Tomelock using SCAG Cantrips.

[djreynolds]

Are you dipping monk? He can use a staff with dex. But you would need a 16 in wisdom for a +3 modifier to make it worth it over mage armor for defense and shillelagh wouldn't be needed.

The only way this is worth it, is by grabbing hill dwarf, dumping strength and dex, maxing charisma and wisdom, and acquiring heavy armor proficiency. Mage armor and max dex is AC 18. Plate is AC 18, but requires dwarf or 15 strength. Mountain dwarf could give you medium armor and you could get heavily armored feat.

It's may not be worth it, when fighter or paladin are right there to grab to be a strength based bladelock. And dex based can just use mage armor and dex.

[Tanarii]

If you're building a bladelock as Dex instead of Str, you're doing it wrong.

If you're worried about AC (which you shouldn't be in a bladelock), either build it Mountain Dwarf, or dip a level of Fighter or 2 Paladin first.

[Easy_Lee]

Agreed with Tanarii. Bladelocks are all about doing consistent, unresistable damage. Between the magic pact weapon and force damage from EB, very few creatures can resist your attacks.

Choose a greatsword and take war caster, fiend pact, armor of agathys, hellish rebuke, agonizing blast, and the false life cantrip for low levels. You don't need AC when you have false life for days. Dress in style.

Edit: remember, AC only stops one type of damage. False life stops all types.

[Millstone85]

If you're building a bladelock as Dex instead of Str, you're doing it wrong.
You don't need AC when you have false life for days.I see. Incidentally, I still couldn't quite make up my mind between Armor of Shadows and Fiendish Vigor for my current warlock, so thank you for solving that.


Are you dipping monk?
fighter or paladin are right there to grab to be a strength based bladelock.Thank you but I am not feeling in the mood for multiclassing. I just want a warlock with a weapon, since there is a subclass for that.


fiend pactI am playing up the conflict between Nature and the Far Realm, so the fiend does not interest me even if mechanically it is probably the best choice for a bladelock. Also, blink looks fun.


A single attack with a SCAG cantrip compares well to 2 attacks, but it does not compare well to 3. 3, which can be easily obtained via Polearm Master.
Choose a greatsword and take war casterAlright, I will think about both weapon/feat combos.

[Easy_Lee]

I am playing up the conflict between Nature and the Far Realm, so the fiend does not interest me even if mechanically it is probably the best choice for a bladelock. Also, blink looks fun.

Are you looking at Fey?

[Millstone85]

Are you looking at Fey?Yes, I said as much.


Someone who would have sought a fey blade in order to slay the aberrations the first warlock worked with.

[Temperjoke]

Don't forget that as a bladelock you gain proficiency with whatever weapon you make your pact weapon, so you could make a finesse weapon like a rapier your pact weapon, allowing you to use dexterity instead of strength. It wouldn't be as optimal as other builds though, such as the one Easy_Lee described.

[Millstone85]

It wouldn't be as optimal as other builds though, such as the one Easy_Lee described.If I go with a similar build, I think booming blade might be worth taking for the war caster opportunity attack alone.

[Tanarii]

I see. Incidentally, I still couldn't quite make up my mind between Armor of Shadows and Fiendish Vigor for my current warlock, so thank you for solving that.You want both at level 2.

Caveats:
Unless you're going to be exclusively casting Armor of Agathys with your 1 spell / encounter (assuming you'll only be seeing 2 encounters per Short Rest).
or
Unless you're a Mountain Dwarf or MC something giving Medium or Heavy Armor
or
Unless you're just faffing around with the Pact of the Blade as a minor ribbon ability (ie going Dex / Rapier). Basically for decent OAs and once in a blue-moon actually attacking physically.

[Easy_Lee]

If you aren't going fiend for the extra false life and resistance, you might consider going with dexterity. The damage will be lower, but maybe max damage isn't what you're going for.

Fiendish vigor is still, in all likelihood, something you very much want. I'd take it before I'd take armor of shadows, since false life is great. And you can save the spell slot you would otherwise spend on armor of agathys.

Warcaster and hellish rebuke are still great, regardless.

[Millstone85]

You want both at level 2.I was talking about my current warlock, which like I said is a chain one. But I will consider this for my new warlock.


If you aren't going fiend for the extra false life and resistance, you might consider going with dexterity.I am not convinced the pact will make that big of a difference. Dark One's Blessing? It looks like it would be great against a large group of weak enemies, but I can't remember the last time I saw that.

Anyway, assuming a strength build with a variant human, how would you buy points?

[Easy_Lee]

I am not convinced the pact will make that big of a difference. Dark One's Blessing? It looks like it would be great against a large group of weak enemies, but I can't remember the last time I saw that.

Anyway, assuming a strength build with a variant human, how would you buy points?

The fiend pact has lots of defensive features, which is why AC is less important for that pact. Gaining up to 25 temporary HP every time you kill something is quite nice, especially if you keep prisoners just for that reason.

That said, for variant human, I'd take war caster and try to start with 16 strength and charisma, plus as much Con as you can muster. The other stats are less important.

[Millstone85]

The fiend pact has lots of defensive features, which is why AC is less important for that pact. Gaining up to 25 temporary HP every time you kill something is quite nice, especially if you keep prisoners just for that reason.I doubt that would fly with the party.


That said, for variant human, I'd take war caster and try to start with 16 strength and charisma, plus as much Con as you can muster. The other stats are less important.No faith in the low charisma approach? It is alright, I will keep that in mind.

[Tanarii]

Low Cha is definitely possible for a Bladelock as a GISH (self-buffer). But you're sacrificing his big damage boost at level 12.

[CursedRhubarb]

My experiance as a 'lock makes me feel that the Fiendish Vigor isn't worth it. It only lets you cast false life as a 1st level spell meaning you'll only ever get 5-8 thp with it and it takes your action so no attack, dash, disengage or whatnot. Situations where it would be useful to spam it every turn (party surrounded my a bunch of mobs so you get attacked every turn) means you never deal any damage. If you're Fiendish you won't get your Pact thp boost since no damage means you never kill anything, and if you are getting hit you will be losing more than it gives (gain 5thp, lose 18, gain 7thp, lose 13, and so on) only time it seems very useful is if you stay ranged and then you aren't as likely to even need it.

[Easy_Lee]

Low Cha is definitely possible for a Bladelock as a GISH (self-buffer). But you're sacrificing his big damage boost at level 12.

You also sacrifice agonizing Eldritch blast, a fantastic ranged option that falls just behind longbow DPR.

[Tanarii]

My experiance as a 'lock makes me feel that the Fiendish Vigor isn't worth it. It only lets you cast false life as a 1st level spell meaning you'll only ever get 5-8 thp with it and it takes your action so no attack, dash, disengage or whatnot.
You cast it as a buff before combat. And yeah, the usefulness fades later on. But you can trade it out for another Invocation if you find its benefit waning.

[Millstone85]

You also sacrifice agonizing Eldritch blast, a fantastic ranged option that falls just behind longbow DPR.And it was certainly easier to build a warlock with the assumption that eldritch blast would be her main method of attack. :smallannoyed:

Getting a bit discouraged here. It looks like bladelocks are pretty MAD after all. Also very hungry for feats and invocations, or even levels in other classes. Not much room left for speaking squirrel and other such funny quirks.

I think I will abandon that idea for now. But thank you everyone.

[bid]

However, I am having a harder time seeing what the Pact of the Blade has got over Tome with shillelagh. We are on the Sword Coast so booming blade and other such cantrips are on the menu, and I think booming blade works with the War Caster feat's opportunity attack. Those can be used with either pact so it seems to me that the only thing Pact of the Blade would bring to the table is the Lifedrinker invocation at 12th level, which is not that great.
You're seeing things right.

The only good bladelock is a fighter 1 polearm build. Although some will swear a TWF (dagger offhand) does as good as a blastlock.

And even then, you are ignoring all tome/chain utilities.

[Temperjoke]

And it was certainly easier to build a warlock with the assumption that eldritch blast would be her main method of attack. :smallannoyed:

Getting a bit discouraged here. It looks like bladelocks are pretty MAD after all. Also very hungry for feats and invocations, or even levels in other classes. Not much room left for speaking squirrel and other such funny quirks.

I think I will abandon that idea for now. But thank you everyone.

Just bear in mind, the advice you're being given is for optimal optimization, and bladelocks are at the lower end of the warlock scale for such things. For any class, focusing on optimization tends to remove a lot of the freedom for funny quirks. If someone says something is "sub-optimal" that doesn't mean that it's "bad", just that it's not at the damage-inflicting maximum potential. Why don't we take a different approach to this character? What exactly are you imagining that you want to play? Don't use classes in your description, just tell us what you'd like to do.

[Tanarii]

Yep. What it really boils down to, is what do you want out of your bladelock?

If you want a balanced Melee/Ranged attacker, go Str.
If you want a Ranged attacker with an okay melee backup, go Dex.

If you want a primary melee with magic as buff/utility only (ie a GISH), you probably want to dip MC some other classes first, like Fighter or Paladin.

[D.U.P.A.]

How good would be an invocation to cast Barkskin at will for Pact of the blade? This would remove the almost mandatory investment in Dex for AC and allowing bladelocks to use Str weapons more easily.

[Millstone85]

Why don't we take a different approach to this character? What exactly are you imagining that you want to play? Don't use classes in your description, just tell us what you'd like to do.My current character was raised by a pack of pseudonatural wolves, led by the Far Realm equivalent of a nature spirit. At the end of the last campaign, she joined a post-Spellplague version of the Order of Blue Flame as the guardian of a gate to the Far Realm. They are exploiting the magic of the gate, not trying to close it. And the new campaign started, for my character, with a dream about some (air elemental?) power destroying the gate.

I have no plan to let my current character die. But if she does, the DM is willing to resurrect her as a fully aberrant NPC. From there, it would make sense for my new character to be the sort of champion of nature who would have got the same vision of the gate being destroyed and would also be investigating it, but with the opposite intent.

Bonus points if he or she grew up in or near the same forest as my first character, Chondalwood, and has been tracking her. It could be an elf from that hidden kingdom, or one of them ghostwise halflings, or a human whose village got assimilated by the kaorti with the help of my first character, or someone who knew my first character's parents who were in fact of the old faith, etc.

And now I do have to mention the warlock class. I would like to continue playing it, but a different take on it. In addition to the different patron, which would obviously be the Archfey instead of the Great Old One, I would like a different pact boon. Blade looks like it is the most different from Chain.

But since Blade is so complicated, maybe I should go Tome. A fey owl perched on a wooden staff? Goes well with the theme.


If you want a balanced Melee/Ranged attacker, go Str.
If you want a Ranged attacker with an okay melee backup, go Dex.I would have liked melee only, with utility magic.

[djreynolds]

A bladelock is down right nasty in melee. PAM with strength and hex. And all the enemy want to hit you, and pay for it. And you still have EB as a back up. Mountain Dwarf bladelock with strength, AC with 14 dex and breastplate is 16AC. Can always get heavily armored for plate, scary.

14/14/12/8/10/14 now 16/14/14/8/10/14 not bad. 4th level grab heavily armored. No multiclass needed.

You were one of the dwarves who delved too greedily, too deeply... but survived changed.

[Temperjoke]

My current character was raised by a pack of pseudonatural wolves, led by the Far Realm equivalent of a nature spirit. At the end of the last campaign, she joined a post-Spellplague version of the Order of Blue Flame as the guardian of a gate to the Far Realm. They are exploiting the magic of the gate, not trying to close it. And the new campaign started, for my character, with a dream about some (air elemental?) power destroying the gate.

I have no plan to let my current character die. But if she does, the DM is willing to resurrect her as a fully aberrant NPC. From there, it would make sense for my new character to be the sort of champion of nature who would have got the same vision of the gate being destroyed and would also be investigating it, but with the opposite intent.

Bonus points if he or she grew up in or near the same forest as my first character, Chondalwood, and has been tracking her. It could be an elf from that hidden kingdom, or one of them ghostwise halflings, or a human whose village got assimilated by the kaorti with the help of my first character, or someone who knew my first character's parents who were in fact of the old faith, etc.

And now I do have to mention the warlock class. I would like to continue playing it, but a different take on it. In addition to the different patron, which would obviously be the Archfey instead of the Great Old One, I would like a different pact boon. Blade looks like it is the most different from Chain.

But since Blade is so complicated, maybe I should go Tome. A fey owl perched on a wooden staff? Goes well with the theme.

I would have liked melee only, with utility magic.

Okay, this gives us a good vision of what you're looking for. Consider:

Bladelock V.Human; start with Moderately Armored feat, put two points (one from race, one from feat) into str, and one point into Con
Str - 17
Con - 15
Dex - 13
Cha - 12
Wis - 10
Int - 8

This gives you medium armor and shields which will help you survive in melee a bit better. At level 4, I'd take the War Caster feat, which lets you cast spells with stuff in hand, gives you advantage on concentration saves (such as with Hex), and lets you cast a spell for an opportunity attack. I'd also take a longsword for your pact weapon, that way you can use it with your shield, or put your shield away and use it two-handed if you need more damage than defense on an enemy. This build isn't as optimized as other builds, but it should do decent in melee. Just remember you don't have the hit dice of a fighter or barbarian but the Fiendish Vigor invocation should help. I'd also take the Repelling Blast invocation, to help with managing the number of enemies you have in melee range. Then at level 5, add the Thirsting Blade invocation to give yourself two attacks.

[Millstone85]

Bladelock V.Human; start with Moderately Armored feat, put two points (one from race, one from feat) into str, and one point into Con
Str - 17
Con - 15
Dex - 13
Cha - 12
Wis - 10
Int - 8

This gives you medium armor and shields which will help you survive in melee a bit better.This is inspiring. But why three odd scores? 17, 15 and 13 are the same as 16, 14 and 12, aren't they?

[bid]

This is inspiring. But why three odd scores? 17, 15 and 13 are the same as 16, 14 and 12, aren't they?
Yep, odd stats are the tool of the devil.

[Temperjoke]

This is inspiring. But why three odd scores? 17, 15 and 13 are the same as 16, 14 and 12, aren't they?

It's partially due to putting the emphasis from for the v.human stat bonus on the primary stats for the build, it's also to set you up for the next ability score increase at 8th level, you're in a position to take one of those stats to the next modifier tier depending which stats you feel like you need to improve, or what feat you choose instead. If you choose to raise your stats instead of taking a feat, you increase two modifiers by +1, all depending on what you need for how your playstyle has evolved.

[Millstone85]

You were one of the dwarves who delved too greedily, too deeply... but survived changed.Making a pact with the balrog balor to save your life? Great origin for a warlock of the Fiend. But again, that wouldn't connect well to my current character's story. Unless...

Okay, it might be irrational of me, but I would feel bad reflavoring an available patron as another available patron, such as Fiend into Archfey. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind reflavoring the Fiend as something not in the book, such as an elemental patron. And your LotR reference gives me an idea.

So, the Underchasm is gone, isn't it? There is again solid ground to walk on east of Chondalwood and the Maerthwatch Mountains. Where did all that earth come from? Maybe from the Plane of Earth, like a brand new piece of Toril. Then it must be full of precious metals and gems. Are there dwarves in the Maerthwatch Mountains? Some might indeed be tempted to mine the space formerly known as the Underchasm. Down there, they would meet earth elementals, but also water elementals in underground lakes and fire elementals in streams of lava. Then, one particular group of elemental spirits would be really angered by the intrusion. Mortals, should you not be closing that accursed gate in the west, instead of making more holes into your world? Some dwarves would escape, others would be captured, and one would come back to make a pact for their freedom. Now he or she must close the gate to the Far Realm or never see his/her loved ones again.

Yes, I am doing this to justify a stronger build. But it is actually helping me come up with a story beyond "The previous character wrecked everything but I can fix it!".

Edit: I just found out that the dwarf in our party is an eldritch knight, so now making a dwarf bladelock feels redundant.