Grid as metagaming

[Dalebert]

Do you use a grid? When you do, do you force everything to adhere to it including things like spell effects?

I prefer not to use a grid and I have a piece of clear plastic that's been gridded to help with range, some movements when it's iffy, and spell areas. But I do use a grid when I'm DMing away from home just for convenience. I chose not to force a spell effect to adhere to the grid because I could eyeball it and see that if they just turned the effect 45 degrees, it would work. SOme players were at first saying it had to adhere to the grid and I realize that's what they'd do if they were running, though they didn't argue with me when I said otherwise.

I guess not everyone's good at picturing geometric shapes and gauging distance in their heads but if I can easily see that a Thunderwave will hit two enemies but not your friends if you turn the cube 30 degrees, I allow it. It otherwise feels super metagamey and like the creatures in your world are actually marching around on a chessboard which takes me out of the moment.

I feel like the grid is helpful for gauging distances and shapes but it shouldn't be there to restrict what should otherwise be legal to do.

[N810]

If you are dead set against using the grid (a bit weird but whatever),
you should probably use circular templates instead of gridded ones.
and use a ruler for distances.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't like using a grid. I can do so if the GM wants to, but I tend to avoid using one.

This is due to three things:
1) I just don't have enough minis.
2) Eyeballing distance and using symbols on a map works just as well. It also allows everyone to be a bit more fluid and cinematic, because if the group agrees that you can leap and hit the goblin you don't have to ask 'is it in 30 ft'.
3) Grids just make combat slower.

I've seem GMs use a grid, and then just abandon the idea of a fixed time round and instead say 'yeah, you can move to about there', and it just runs much more smoothly. The only advantage I've encountered grids giving is working out areas of effect, but nobody's complained when I just say 'okay, you should be able to hit about four of them'. So my suggestion is to get rid of a grid and just fudge distances to make it more fun.

[MaxWilson]

Do you use a grid? When you do, do you force everything to adhere to it including things like spell effects?

Sometimes I use a grid. Sometimes I use a piece of paper with dots and arrows drawn on it. No, I don't force things to adhere to the grid.

[MeeposFire]

I think it is a strength of the game to have it work in any way you like. You want to keep things crazy simple adhere to the grid but if you are willing to put extra effort in (in this situation it really isnt that much) then allow you to put it more to your liking. It allows for multiple play styles which in this idea is a good thing. Just keep your game consistent to itself and all is good.

[uraniumrooster]

I usually only use a grid with newer players or in organized play situations where it's useful to have fixed, consistent distances. With players who have more experience tabletop gaming and are able to approximate distances and know the size & shape of their spell effects, I just use rough maps or theater of the mind. Although, I do still use a grid or hex sometimes even in those games if positioning is particularly important in a given encounter.

I guess the short answer is "it depends."

[Dalebert]

I'm saying go ahead and use a grid for movement and such. I just think it gets silly when you can easily eyeball it and see that a thunderwave will work better tilted a little bit but "No, it has to conform to the arbitrary lines drawn out by the grid."

I can eyeball a lot but if you can't, it's pretty easy to just make lines on a 6x6 inche square of plastic and hold it over things. You can also put the corner on the center of an AoE and use it for distance to see what's affected. You don't have to always use it, but for those cases when the grid is being arbitrarily weird.

[Safety Sword]

Well, if you're constrained in the direction your character can move by a grid, then spell effects should be the same.

Personally I don't use grids, but I do enjoy measuring and using cut out templates to help with measuring spell areas and the like.

I guess what I'm advocating is consistency across the movement and spell areas.

[R.Shackleford]

Do you use a grid? When you do, do you force everything to adhere to it including things like spell effects?

I prefer not to use a grid and I have a piece of clear plastic that's been gridded to help with range, some movements when it's iffy, and spell areas. But I do use a grid when I'm DMing away from home just for convenience. I chose not to force a spell effect to adhere to the grid because I could eyeball it and see that if they just turned the effect 45 degrees, it would work. SOme players were at first saying it had to adhere to the grid and I realize that's what they'd do if they were running, though they didn't argue with me when I said otherwise.

I guess not everyone's good at picturing geometric shapes and gauging distance in their heads but if I can easily see that a Thunderwave will hit two enemies but not your friends if you turn the cube 30 degrees, I allow it. It otherwise feels super metagamey and like the creatures in your world are actually marching around on a chessboard which takes me out of the moment.

I feel like the grid is helpful for gauging distances and shapes but it shouldn't be there to restrict what should otherwise be legal to do.

Ok so here is what my groups do.

We don't really use a grid, just a table and some boxes to represent stuff (4e monster vault tokens to represent enemies cause hell ya). Then we have these little dowels that have 1 inch marks on them.

1" = 5'

Everyone has a "30-Foot" stick at minimum and whatever other distance stick they want... Within reason. We use wire brush thingies (small colorful ties... forget their name but they come in different colors and are very bendy) to make outlines of different spell effects.

Quick and easy, without the mess of a grid markers.

I've found that people who hate grids like this and people who like grids also like this... Soo... Win!


Edit

Alternatively you could use 13th Age's range rules. They are pretty darn simple.

From the srd...

13th Age also eschews grid- and numerical-distance-based mechanics in favor of simplified range mechanics. Two characters are either:

"Engaged" - In direct melee combat
"Nearby" - Within one move away
"Far-away" - More than one move away

[Reosoul]

I'm actually incredibly surprised no one here uses grids.

I run most of my games via Virtual Tabletop(Fantasy Grounds), and I use grids almost every session.

I find it's very easy to get players a concept of space and scale when adventuring through a dungeon, etc. Don't use them much for anything but combat or confined social encounters(I walk up to this guy and talk to him), but I feel like my game would lose a lot if I never used a gridded map.

Of course, I'm also accusing all of you of being wierd.

[R.Shackleford]

Of course, I'm also accusing all of you of being casting wierd.

I read your post as this.

[Hrugner]

I prefer them. It keeps everything fair and people have a very clear understanding of exactly what can be done in the game. You don't need to wonder if you are covering an area enough to hit a creature, you don't need to wonder if you're catching a PC with a spell effect, and you don't need to guess how long it's going to take you to run up on a character or how long it'll take them to reach you. Without a grid you make quick decisions about how much difficult terrain needs to be crossed to count, and how much a target needs to be covered for it to be effected. I prefer those decisions to be made in advance so we don't have to worry about them changing from moment to moment.

[Cybren]

When we played live we used a dry erase board just to relate positioning and draw out crude maps. Online we use grids a little bit more often, simply since roll 20 provides one

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I'm actually incredibly surprised no one here uses grids.


I'm surprised by it too, everyone uses grids in every venue I've played in around my area. When you have characters that have different movement speeds, etc., I think it would be unfair not to use grids. It makes combat that much more tactical too, when you can only do things from a specific range of movement or attack range, it changes how you do things tactically in every encounter. More tactics is good.

[Cybren]

I don't think grids make things "more tactical", they make them slightly more war game like, but that's not really what "tactical" means.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I don't think grids make things "more tactical", they make them slightly more war game like, but that's not really what "tactical" means.

I disagree.
Tactical: "of, relating to, or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end."

Takes more careful planning out of your actions on an exact grid than it does "eye-balling" something and saying "sure, that will get there".

[R.Shackleford]

I disagree.
Tactical: "of, relating to, or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end."

Takes more careful planning out of your actions on an exact grid than it does "eye-balling" something and saying "sure, that will get there".

While grids CAN make things more tactical it doesn't mean that players will use tactics.

Grids are a tool, it's up to the players and DMS to use them effectively.

[BW022]

I use battlemaps and have since 3E. IMO... it makes the game go faster.

1. It saves time mapping. You draw out things as you see them.
2. It saves time in having to repeatedly describe movement, positions, locations of doors, etc. to players.
3. It allows players to plan their next moves when not their initiative.
4. It avoids arguments about certain rules, mistaken DM descriptions, unfairness in descriptions, etc.
5. It allows players to move their own figures so they know exact routes.
6. It allows showing key items (doors, pillars, stairs, statues, etc.) for players to see and allows drawing in specific effects (lighting, permanent spell effects, etc.)
7. It allows the DM to pre-draw out key encounters or rooms saving time. It permits far more detailed and complex areas to be visualized. Cities, complex wilderness areas, rooms with complex trap systems, etc.
8. The game is designed around fairly exact rules of reach, movement, etc. You can cheat certain races, feats, tactics, if you don't use rules such as reach, opportunity attacks, enhanced/reduced movement, weapon ranges, sneak attack, etc.
9. It is far easier to mark targets -- i.e. small colored six-sider dice.
10. You can write on the battle map (it is erasable), which saves having to have more paper (in addition to the monster manual or module stat-blocks) for initiative, hit points, or conditions.
11. #10 also makes it easier for players to visualize or call out targets. "I hit the same one as Fredrick hit last time" isn't as quick for a DM as "I shoot red goblin 3"
12. There are times when actual figures on a battle map, or a well done pre-drawn out room, really adds to a sense of atmosphere -- often dread, fear, etc. See a 3" tall figure next to a full dragon or giant figure really adds to a sense of OMG.
13. It removes DM bias (or perceived bias) in having to make repeated rulings on distance, position, etc.
14. It is easier with new players (especially children) who simply can't visualize that much information.
etc.

Can people meta-game with a battle map... sure. They can spend too much time thinking, too much time communicating plans, too much time trying to get into the optimal position, come up with rule specific builds, etc. However... experience, simple table rules, varied encounters, etc. tend to eliminate this. People can meta-game without a battle map. Why play a wood elf vs. a dwarf is that movement is far less likely to be imposed in a non-battle-map system? Why play a rogue if your sneak attack keeps relying on DM judgements?

Of course... if the players are having fun... use whatever works.

[Sabeta]

I play on a grid, and my DM was quite impressed when I "broke" it by saying "I move 17 feet, cast Burning Hands (because burning hands would be more optimal at 17 feet than 20) and then continued my movement to reach 20 at the end of my turn. This way I get the ease of planning and spatial awareness that a grid brings, but without being restricted by it.

[Dalebert]

I'm surprised by it too, everyone uses grids in every venue I've played in around my area. When you have characters that have different movement speeds, etc., I think it would be unfair not to use grids. It makes combat that much more tactical too, when you can only do things from a specific range of movement or attack range, it changes how you do things tactically in every encounter. More tactics is good.

I only eyeball it when it's not close. We keep a measuring tool around for when it is close. When the enemy is somewhere between 10 ft and 20 ft, then it doesn't matter if you're able to move 30. If the enemy is between 25 ft and 35 ft, then it matters and you pull out the stick. Point is most of the time there is range to spare. Lots of ranged weapons and spells have a big enough range that there's no need to measure in most cases like in a relatively small dungeon room.

I think it bothers me because, while it's a useful measuring tool, it's also a constant distraction from flavor of the game. I'd rather just pull the tools out when they're needed than to constantly have our thinking constrained and having movement happen in a weird chess piece manner. Gridless games were introduced to me by DM Scotty and I've been using that method ever since. It feels more immersive and natural.

[WickerNipple]

1" = 5'

This is my preferred method too. My D&D group all comes from miniature wargaming backgrounds anyway so I love setting up a nice table with hills and trees and wee houses and dungeon tiles for when the indoor stuff arrives.

[R.Shackleford]

This is my preferred method too. My D&D group all comes from miniature wargaming backgrounds anyway so I love setting up a nice table with hills and trees and wee houses and dungeon tiles for when the indoor stuff arrives.

Funny enough I've never played war games, however a fee years back I was in Pittsburgh and playing at Legions (http://www.legionsgames.com) and saw all the war games going on and thought "why the hell doesn't d&d work this way".

[Tanarii]

For D&D BECMI, a little bit of AD&D 1e, and the start of AD&D 2e, I went mini-less. Then I switched to minis & battlemats heavily from AD&D 2e Combat & Tactics through 4e. For 5e, I prefer completely mini-less, with a quick sketch on a piece of paper or white-board if needed to show some relative positions.

Personally I think either is appropriate, but gives you different advantages and disadvantages.

Gridded usually:
is slower
allows more complex combat tactical play
allows better visualization of tactically relevant details (such as position and terrain)
tends to encourage playing the rules / board, instead of playing the character
draws an even sharper line between combat and non-combat

No grid usually:
is faster
can lead to confusion / debate about tactical questions (such as positioning / terrain)
encourages better visualization of non-tactical ambient environment (non-tactical visual details, smells, tactictile effects)
tends to encourage playing the character, instead of playing the rules

[Tanarii]

Funny enough I've never played war games, however a fee years back I was in Pittsburgh and playing at Legions (http://www.legionsgames.com) and saw all the war games going on and thought "why the hell doesn't d&d work this way".It did. Still does, kind of. It's just really expensive and time consuming to do it that way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I prefer a grid. I always like some way of showing what the terrain and positioning is like, to prevent the "five minutes of asking the DM about stuff every turn" issue, and D&D is small and specific about ranges and movement to make it worth paying attention to such things. I've never heard anyone call it "metagaming" -or, for that matter, claim that spell effects must always snap to the grid.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm actually incredibly surprised no one here uses grids.

I run most of my games via Virtual Tabletop(Fantasy Grounds), and I use grids almost every session.

I find it's very easy to get players a concept of space and scale when adventuring through a dungeon, etc. Don't use them much for anything but combat or confined social encounters(I walk up to this guy and talk to him), but I feel like my game would lose a lot if I never used a gridded map.

Of course, I'm also accusing all of you of being wierd.
There's been some affirmative replies since this post (Geometers, represent!), but I'm a VTT DM (Roll20) who never uses the grid for combat. That doesn't mean I don't use measured maps, just not the grid. I have the scales set so range and move distances are accurate (move token, hit space bar - now you know how far you are from start!), then let them move freely. The only modification I've had to make is to define some zones around characters. The Paladin has a 10' aura that your token must be inside to gain the benefit. The Glaive Master has a 5' ring - a token that is touching the outside of the ring is within the extended reach of his glaive.

But I'll also run encounters ToM or Abstracted (similar to 13th Age)

I do sometimes use grids for exploration, though (hexcrawl, yo).

[R.Shackleford]

It did. Still does, kind of. It's just really expensive and time consuming to do it that way.

I meant more... Just put it on a table and use measuring sticks kinda way of playing.

Measuring sticks
Tokens/minis
Wire thingies to make area of effect stuff
Table

Boom. That's all you really need, well, a bit of theater of the mind and blamo.

[Temperjoke]

Personally I think the grid has its uses, I mean, for me at least, it helps visualize combat and spell placement. Something that hasn't been touched on, it also helps keep people honest about their movement and spells by making sure they aren't trying to move farther than they're actually allowed, or toss a spell farther than it's intended. This isn't something that would be a problem among friends usually, but how many stories have we seen about powergamer shenanigans?

[Tanarii]

I meant more... Just put it on a table and use measuring sticks kinda way of playing.

Measuring sticks
Tokens/minis
Wire thingies to make area of effect stuff
Table

Boom. That's all you really need, well, a bit of theater of the mind and blamo.
Totes. 5e rules work very well with minis, no grid, and measuring distance. They're written so that one isn't needed if you're willing to measure distance. Players can even help by being responsible for a few standard lengths of string/stick for their default attack ranges & movement.

[Dalebert]

I prefer a grid. I always like some way of showing what the terrain and positioning is like, to prevent the "five minutes of asking the DM about stuff every turn" issue, and D&D is small and specific about ranges and movement to make it worth paying attention to such things. I've never heard anyone call it "metagaming" -or, for that matter, claim that spell effects must always snap to the grid.

I'm not following. What do they have to spend 5 minutes asking you about because there's no grid? I thought I was clear that we still use minis and distance and space still matter. We just having measuring sticks and such for those times when it's close. There's no point asking me. If it's not clear, either I pull out the stick or they do. Or maybe I stop them and say "you're going to have to measure that."

It's cool that they can move in any direction. They can go in a str8 line at 30 degrees rather than 45 or 90, for instance. They can have a Shatter spell land anywhere. It doesn't have to "snap to grid". It's incredibly liberating and again seems more immersive and real.

I do have a DM that uses TotM. OMG. OMG. Now THAT must be what you're talking about. He's presumably keeping up with it all in his head and we have to constantly have him re-explain what's going on. That's ridiculous. This is the same DM that I discovered "cheats" and there's a long thread about it. Makes it even easier to cheat when we all in the dark about where everything is.

[Bohandas]

What if you increased the granularity of the grid like in the Atari version of Temple of Elemental Evil. That tracked distances a lot smaller than 5 feet. Might be a pain to set up irl though. Best bet in that case would probably be to look for some kind of computer computer program that could track it. Which would also solve the "not enoigh miniatures" problem (another possible solution for the latter: use chess pieces or something)

[Tanarii]

I thought I was clear that we still use minis and distance and space still matter. We just having measuring sticks and such for those times when it's close.Yeah, a lot of people tend to think "no grid" = "no minis". It's important to distinguish between the two.

OTOH I totally thought your original post was about minis vs no minis. Reading comprehension fail on my part, looking back at it. :smallwink:


I do have a DM that uses TotM. OMG. OMG. Now THAT must be what you're talking about. He's presumably keeping up with it all in his head and we have to constantly have him re-explain what's going on. That's ridiculous.It's hard to communicate it all clearly if you're not experienced with it. Angry DM has some good threads on it.

http://www.madadventurers.com/angry-rants-theater-of-the-mind/
(Note: I just love his rant about the name. ;) )

Also tangential related, but it really helps when it comes to combat speed & player engagement both on and off the battlemat
http://theangrygm.com/manage-combat-like-a-dolphin/

[WickerNipple]

It did. Still does, kind of. It's just really expensive and time consuming to do it that way.

It's not any more time consuming that regular play from my experience. There's certainly some money involved with getting all the toys.

[Tanarii]

It's not any more time consuming that regular play from my experience. There's certainly some money involved with getting all the toys.
I was referring to the way IMX typical war-gamers tend to create beautiful "realistic" models of terrain and structures. That's the way I'm used to seeing it done. And that part takes a lot of extra time especially, and some extra money. Although minis themselves aren't exactly cheap.

[WickerNipple]

I was referring to the way IMX typical war-gamers tend to create beautiful "realistic" models of terrain and structures. That's the way I'm used to seeing it done. And that part takes a lot of extra time especially, and some extra money. Although minis themselves aren't exactly cheap.

Oh the hobby time. Yes, there's plenty of that, but then it's a hobby. It's also sunk time since I'm not adding any more terrain.

Anyway, I think it's a very fun way to play. :)

[Cybren]

What if you increased the granularity of the grid like in the Atari version of Temple of Elemental Evil. That tracked distances a lot smaller than 5 feet. Might be a pain to set up irl though. Best bet in that case would probably be to look for some kind of computer computer program that could track it. Which would also solve the "not enoigh miniatures" problem (another possible solution for the latter: use chess pieces or something)

I'd just use one yard diameter hexes. Smaller area, better resolution, less weird corner issues

[Laserlight]

I don't like using a grid.
1) I just don't have enough minis.



In a document or spreadsheet, make a table with 1" squares.
Fill in the names of your heros, one per cell (or use artwork such as our GitP avatars); fill the rest of the page with monster designations. (Forex A1-A30 for mooks, B1-10, C1-10, etc for monsters they'll encounter in lesser numbers). Adjust font size, color, etc to taste.
Print.
Using a 1" circular punch from the papercrafts section of a hobby store, punch out the names.
Get from a hardware store a sheet of 1" felt circles used for chair feet. They're adhesive backed.
Apply paper circles to felt circles.
For about $20 in material, you have enough markers for any encounter.


I almost always use a grid. That way everyone knows where everything is and I never have to answer "can I get there"?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm not following. What do they have to spend 5 minutes asking you about because there's no grid? I thought I was clear that we still use minis and distance and space still matter. We just having measuring sticks and such for those times when it's close. There's no point asking me. If it's not clear, either I pull out the stick or they do. Or maybe I stop them and say "you're going to have to measure that."

It's cool that they can move in any direction. They can go in a str8 line at 30 degrees rather than 45 or 90, for instance. They can have a Shatter spell land anywhere. It doesn't have to "snap to grid". It's incredibly liberating and again seems more immersive and real.

I do have a DM that uses TotM. OMG. OMG. Now THAT must be what you're talking about. He's presumably keeping up with it all in his head and we have to constantly have him re-explain what's going on. That's ridiculous. This is the same DM that I discovered "cheats" and there's a long thread about it. Makes it even easier to cheat when we all in the dark about where everything is.
Oh, my bad. I tend to draw things on a grid because I have one of those $15 folding dry-erase battlemaps, and I'm usually pretty good about saying "eh, you probably have enough movement to get there." It just seems like less effort than breaking out measuring sticks.

@Laserlight: I got a stack of bathroom tiles from a secondhand construction materials store. They're about exactly the right size, sturdy, and I can write whatever I need on them with wet/dry erase markers.

[Joe the Rat]

Deep in, but those colorful wire things are pipe cleaners. They're awesome.

I have a set of grid-frames for spell effects (my other group is run by a grid guy) - really handy for stand-up minis in that you can set it down without disturbing them.
I also use them to make impromptu minis for things. Like a summoned horse, or a giant snake.
One of these days, I will build a gelatinous cube!

[stenver]

We played with grid for 2 years until we gave theatre of mind a chance. 1,5 years later, we never went back.

Grid is limiting - people focus counting on squares instead of awesome stuff that happens. In addition, our party is level 16 right now. The battles we have usually involve thousands of feet, flying, teleporting, burrowing and messing around. I can't imagine doing all that on grid.
Grid destroys the fantasy - when you see a mini, that's what the enemy looks like. When you think of a monster by description, it will look a lot different(and more awesome)
Grid slows down the game - counting squares, trying to get the absolute best positioning. Instead of that, we can now just describe what we want to do.

So in essence - theatre of mind is the way to go. Even our most skeptical players are convinced now.

It sometimes get's messy on bigger battles, then we sketch something to the board for general layout of distances. But it all stays very rough and approximate.

[Bohandas]

I'd just use one yard diameter hexes. Smaller area, better resolution, less weird corner issues

I can't see how a size that doesn't divide evenly into the original size would work

[R.Shackleford]

Deep in, but those colorful wire things are pipe cleaners. They're awesome.

I have a set of grid-frames for spell effects (my other group is run by a grid guy) - really handy for stand-up minis in that you can set it down without disturbing them.
I also use them to make impromptu minis for things. Like a summoned horse, or a giant snake.
One of these days, I will build a gelatinous cube!

Well, that's what I thought they were called but I thought they had another name... Just bought a new pack of 100... They are apparently called "fuzzy sticks". Lol