Pointless Hand Crossbows

[RPG_NPC]

Just been reading through Wotc's Sage Advice Compendium 1.01 on hand crossbows and Crossbow Expert...
"Crossbow Expert makes it possible to fire a hand crossbow more than once with a feature like Extra Attack, provided that you have enough ammunition and you have a hand free to load it for each shot."

Seems reasonable but why then would anyone use a hand crossbow instead of light or heavy crossbow? Yes, it's a one handed weapon but as you still need to keep your other hand empty to reload it. Wouldn't it be better to use a two handed crossbow that you can hold in one hand while reloading?

Am I missing something here? Please advise!

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Just been reading through Wotc's Sage Advice Compendium 1.01 on hand crossbows and Crossbow Expert...
"Crossbow Expert makes it possible to fire a hand crossbow more than once with a feature like Extra Attack, provided that you have enough ammunition and you have a hand free to load it for each shot."

Seems reasonable but why then would anyone use a hand crossbow instead of light or heavy crossbow? Yes, it's a one handed weapon but as you still need to keep your other hand empty to reload it. Wouldn't it be better to use a two handed crossbow that you can hold in one hand while reloading?

Am I missing something here? Please advise!

You can actually duel-wield one-handed crossbows, and thus get a bonus action attack out of them just like you can when you are doing two-weapon fighting.

[Coidzor]

You can actually duel-wield one-handed crossbows, and thus get a bonus action attack out of them just like you can when you are doing two-weapon fighting.

For literally one turn and you can't use Extra Attack with it if you're high enough level to have Extra Attack unless you drop one of the hand crossbows.

[bid]

You can actually duel-wield one-handed crossbows, and thus get a bonus action attack out of them just like you can when you are doing two-weapon fighting.
You can't (really) dual-wield because you need a free hand to reload. You could fake it on round 1, but you'll need to drop the offhand round 2.

Crossbow expert allows you to shoot 3 times for 3d6+15, which is better than the 2 attacks you'd get from a longbow (2d8+10).

[RPG_NPC]

@Bid 3 Attacks? Action + Bonus Action + Extra Attack(s)?

[Sabeta]

You can't (really) dual-wield because you need a free hand to reload. You could fake it on round 1, but you'll need to drop the offhand round 2.

Crossbow expert allows you to shoot 3 times for 3d6+15, which is better than the 2 attacks you'd get from a longbow (2d8+10).

How? I understand the Rules would in theory allow you to shoot 3 times, but wouldn't that force you to drop one of the crossbows in order to load the third shot? If that's the case, why not drop both and pull out a Heavy Crossbow for a sweet 2d6+1d10+15. If I were DMing I would probably make the player roll to not break the Crossbows every time you dropped them.

[bid]

@Bid 3 Attacks? Action + Bonus Action + Extra Attack(s)?
Yep.


How? I understand the Rules would in theory allow you to shoot 3 times, but wouldn't that force you to drop one of the crossbows in order to load the third shot?
You don't need 2 crossbows; your "one-handed weapon" is the hand crossbow. There's nothing in your off-hand.

[Pope Scarface]

Yeah, you could WWII Captain America it with shield and hand crossbow. With Crossbow Expert, you can take an extra attack with your hand crossbow after taking an attack with your hand crossbow, then later take the shield feat and do... cool shield stuff as bonus action.

[Mellack]

Yeah, you could WWII Captain America it with shield and hand crossbow. With Crossbow Expert, you can take an extra attack with your hand crossbow after taking an attack with your hand crossbow, then later take the shield feat and do... cool shield stuff as bonus action.

Probably not going to work very well. I think many DMs would say holding a shield means that is not a free hand, so you have no hand to load your crossbow with. Additionally, even if they allow it, both shield mastery and crossbow expert have things to do with your bonus action. So if you do a shield knockdown, you can't take an extra shot, and if you take an extra shot, you can't knock them down with your shield.

[Sabeta]

You don't need 2 crossbows; your "one-handed weapon" is the hand crossbow. There's nothing in your off-hand.

I see, well crunching the numbers:

Hand Crossbow: 3d6=18 (+3/6/9/12/15)
Heavy Crossbow: 2d10=20 (+2/4/6/8/10)

Upper Limits however don't quite do D&D theorycrafting justice. The "average" result of a d6 is 4, and the average result of a d10 is 6. I'm removing +1/2 from the list hereon out because anyone who cares this much about min-maxing a crossbow probably doesn't have a Dex score that low. Also, I'm really bad at probability, so correct me if that's wrong. I'm just citing Hit-Die here.

Hand: 4x3=12 (+9/12/15)
Heavy: 6x2=12 (+6/8/10)

So, you burn your Bonus action to achieve +3/4/5 extra damage per round. Probably more if you start factoring in that extra attacks means more chances to hit in the first place, as well as more opportunities to proc Sneak Attack if you have it. I don't really see how holding a shield (even in your hand) wouldn't allow you to reload if you're especially dextrous (I've personally performed fine movements with something clunky in my hands: ie, setting a cotter pin while holding a hammer), but that may cross too far into "cheese" territory for DM's taste. At best, they could argue that you can't do that "in combat". Worst case scenario try to homebrew a Buckler (+1 AC, no hands required but requires a "free hand" to use so you can't use a buckler+GS or Heavy Crossbow or Longbow), or just live without I suppose.

As an aside:

Hand: 4x4=16 (+9/12/15)
Heavy: 6x3=18 (+6/8/10)

Hand: 4x5=20 (+9/12/15)
Heavy: 6x4=24 (+6/8/10)

I guess it should be obvious, but later in the game Heavy Crossbow starts getting very close to Hand Crossbow's damage. Actually if you go back to Max possible output Heavy has a very clear advantage. At this point you'll have a lot of class features and maybe feats, and many of those may be seeking to share that Bonus Action slot, so it may be worth "upgrading" at that point.

Food for thought. (If your DM decides that none of this works, as in your "one-handed weapon" cannot be the Crossbow you intend to gain a bonus action with, then I guess Heavy Crossbow wins outright.

[Kryx]

You don't need 2 crossbows; your "one-handed weapon" is the hand crossbow. There's nothing in your off-hand.
This is indeed RAW/RAI. And it's horrible. They chose the least flavorful option and nerfed all the flavorful option (dual wielding hand crossbows).

Hand crossbows provide the most damage for rangers (via hunter's mark) or any archers (via -5/+10).

[Yuki Akuma]

I think the highest DPR strategy for Battle Master Fighters is to use Crossbow Expert and spam maneuvers, too.

[Kryx]

I think the highest DPR strategy for Battle Master Fighters is to use Crossbow Expert and spam maneuvers, too.
There aren't a lot of worthwhile ranged maneuvers. Mainly Precise Shot with -5/+10 for DPR.

[Malifice]

There aren't a lot of worthwhile ranged maneuvers. Mainly Precise Shot with -5/+10 for DPR.

Menacing shot makes them scared.

When they're scared they cant approach you.

[Waazraath]

This is indeed RAW/RAI. And it's horrible. They chose the least flavorful option and nerfed all the flavorful option (dual wielding hand crossbows).


The opinion is strong in this one (as it is in most statements on what is 'flavorful'). For me, I'm very thankful that they skipped the miraculously self-loading hand crossbows, that games like Diablo 3 have. As long as the game tries to resemble mundane physics in at least a very general way, no matter how unsuccesful at some points, it should stay way from this.

[Kryx]

Menacing shot makes them scared.

When they're scared they cant approach you.
He was talking about DPR. What I meant is that there is no ranged maneuver like Trip Attack which greatly increases DPR. As you point out there is some nice utility.


___________________________



The opinion is strong in this one (as it is in most statements on what is 'flavorful').
Ignoring flavor (which I agree is subjective) and examine the mechanics:

1 hand crossbow: Can attack a second time with the same weapon (potentially magical) as a bonus action and have an entirely free hand.
2 hand crossbows: Can attack a second time with a a different weapon (likely not magical) as a bonus action and have no free hands.

Hand crossbows can do crazy damage. The mechanical limitations of the second option are much more balanced against that damage.

Beyond that the interpretation of the vast majority of the community before the sage advice was that they could not use the same hand crossbow due to the "loaded" part. The sage advice in this regard chooses to entirely ignore the "loaded" part for simplicity.

Light Ranged weapons (hand crossbows included) should follow the normal TWF rules imo - it's by far the simplest option and removes the confusion (see the hundreds of twitter questions and posts about TWFing with hand crossbows)..

[Xefas]

The opinion is strong in this one (as it is in most statements on what is 'flavorful'). For me, I'm very thankful that they skipped the miraculously self-loading hand crossbows, that games like Diablo 3 have. As long as the game tries to resemble mundane physics in at least a very general way, no matter how unsuccesful at some points, it should stay way from this.

In real life, if you're wearing a long coat, and you fire a hand crossbow in either hand, then discard them onto the ground, two more come to exist in a quantum state inside of your coat until you decide to draw them. To this day, physicists are stumped as to where the matter comes from, and why it appears in the form of two loaded crossbows, but it's a heavily documented phenomena. Leading theories surmise some kind of antimatter crossbow-resonance waves.

D&D is fairly unrealistic for not representing this, in my opinion. Just imagine how different history would be if George Washington hadn't been able to shoot Hitler in the neck with a crossbow drawn out of his dramatically flowing duster; America would've almost certainly lost the Battle of Gettysburg, and possible the entire Hundred Years War.

[Kryx]

In real life, if you're wearing a long coat, and you fire a hand crossbow in either hand, then discard them onto the ground, two more come to exist in a quantum state inside of your coat until you decide to draw them.
Playing a lot of overwatch lately? ;)

[Pope Scarface]

Beyond that the interpretation of the vast majority of the community before the sage advice was that they could not use the same hand crossbow due to the "loaded" part. The sage advice in this regard chooses to entirely ignore the "loaded" part for simplicity.


For simplicity, or because ignoring the loading property on a weapon is the first part of the feat?

Per the rules, you don't have to take a bonus action immediately. You can take your attack with your crossbow, and the feat allows you to, at any point in your turn after making that attack, to make an attack as a bonus action with any loaded hand crossbow you are holding. You could move in between, or use your free interact with an object action to load a hand crossbow, or pull out a hand crossbow (which because of the feat doesn't need any special action to load).

[Kryx]

For simplicity, or because ignoring the loading property on a weapon is the first part of the feat?
So if the feat says you ignore loading, then why would they need to put the loaded part in the third bullet?
I'm sure we could go down this route for a while. In the end RAI has been clarified by the developers.

I, personally, think it's rather unfortunate that they chose McCree's Fan the Hammer option over Reaper's dual pistols from a balance (mechanics) and fluff perspective.


Back on track with this thread: They are anything but worthless. Using the RAI rules on crossbow expert they are the best option for nearly all martial ranged builds (rogue, ranger, fighter)

[DeAnno]

I guess it should be obvious, but later in the game Heavy Crossbow starts getting very close to Hand Crossbow's damage. Actually if you go back to Max possible output Heavy has a very clear advantage. At this point you'll have a lot of class features and maybe feats, and many of those may be seeking to share that Bonus Action slot, so it may be worth "upgrading" at that point.


I think the highest DPR strategy for Battle Master Fighters is to use Crossbow Expert and spam maneuvers, too.

What you do is use a Hand Crossbow with Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and Precision Attack or some similar ability. Sharpshooter every shot, even against rather high AC. If you ever think a shot misses by 5 or less (this varies with the size of your superiority die and with how fast you want to burn them), use Precision Attack to try to make it hit instead of miss. There is a lot of detailed math in there which I'll eventually make a topic about, but the long and short is stuff dies hard.

The fact that Hand Crossbows give you an extra attack over Heavies makes them a lot better when you consider that all your attacks are doing 10+Dex+Die damage; the Heavy dealing 5.5 with its die vs. 3.5 is only a difference of about 18.5/16.5 - 1 = 12%. Comparing that to the 33% damage boost from 4 attacks vs. 3 even makes it clear that Hand XBows are the way to go, even moreso when you consider overkill damage is a thing and more smaller attacks are just better (the simplest and most compelling example is being able to splat an extra thing if all the things you're killing have less hp than your min damage).

It might be a good argument that the opportunity cost of taking Crossbow Expert over a Dex ASI or something is hugely significant, but Crossbow Expert is also necessary for using Extra Attack with Crossbows at all and for using Sharpshooter at point blank range with no disadvantage penalty. That latter part is really key since as a Fighter with Fighter HP and short rest Second Wind it means you can off-tank half-decently too.

[RPG_NPC]

So Hand Crossbows are the way to go if you have the Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter feats and you're not using your bonus action for anything else?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes. So it's great for Fighters. What do they use their bonus action for, after all?

[Kryx]

It's also significantly better for rogues as they can get 2 attacks per turn in comparison to a shortbow.

2 attacks means a much higher chance at sneak attack which means a much higher DPR.

[RPG_NPC]

@Kryx: That's with the Crossbow Expert feat, yes?

[LordFluffy]

Seems reasonable but why then would anyone use a hand crossbow instead of light or heavy crossbow?... Am I missing something here? Please advise!
If you're in a class that doesn't provide Extra Attack, then the second shot on a hand crossbow is the only RAW "2 ranged attack per turn" option in the book, I'm pretty sure. It's definitely the best one.

[WickerNipple]

@Kryx: That's with the Crossbow Expert feat, yes?

Yes. No one uses hand crossbows without that feat.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you're in a class that doesn't provide Extra Attack, then the second shot on a hand crossbow is the only RAW "2 ranged attack per turn" option in the book, I'm pretty sure. It's definitely the best one.

Not quite - you can dual wield melee weapons with the Thrown property and throw them both just fine.

If your Strength is higher than your Dexterity, nabbing the two-weapon fighting feat is probably better than nabbing Crossbow Expert.

[Kryx]

Not quite - you can dual wield melee weapons with the Thrown property and throw them both just fine.

If your Strength is higher than your Dexterity, nabbing the two-weapon fighting feat is probably better than nabbing Crossbow Expert.
For Rogues it is will equate to significantly less damage (str vs dex on attack and damage)

For others thrown weapons are not viable options with -5/+10 from sharpshooter. Thrown weapon are melee weapons that can make ranged attacks and do not qualify for that feat.

[Jarlhen]

Essentially a hand crossbow is fired 2 times with the feat but without the extra attack ability. So a heavy crossbow will do 1d10+5 =10.5 average whereas a h.crossbow will do 1d6+5x2 =17 average. So it's a hell of a lot better assuming you hit. Add to that sharpshooter and that means 2 chances of -5/+10 damage. Add hunter's mark and your damage is 2d6+5x2 instead. Of course extra attack will only make the problem worse. It's entirely OP and we've removed the bonus attack in our game. Essentially if you play a martial ranged character you take crossbowmaster or you're gimping yourself making it one sneeze outside of mandatory. And damage increases like this are not fun for that reason.

[N810]

or you could do this...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/9c/ae/7f/9cae7f47257f85ccb6a3c5dd3b3e9573.jpg
but with hand crossbows.

[Klorox]

Hand crossbows go from flavor (I wouldn't call any weapon pointless, except for some bludgeoning weapons - har har), to overpowered when you combine the archery fighting style (+2 to hit), sharpshooter fighting style (-5/+10), a high DEX, and the crossbow mastery feat (attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action).

A level 1 variant human fighter with a 16 DEX, archery fighting style, and the crossbow mastery feat attacks twice at +0 to hit and does 1d6+13 on each attack. That can not be matched.

[RickAllison]

If one wants to dual-wield hand crossbows, there is one option from the books that would make it viable, but it requires a little lateral thinking and a permissive DM. The big one is the permission of material from OotA...

From Derro weapons:
The derro also use a light repeating crossbow fitted
with a cartridge that can hold up to six crossbow bolts.
This weapon is similar to a light crossbow except that
it has half the range (40/160 feel) and doesn't have the
loading property. It automatically reloads after Firing
until it runs out of ammunition. Reloading the cartridge
takes an action.

So we can adapt that same modification to hand crossbows to make it viable!

Repeating Hand Crossbow: 150 gp, 1d6 piercing, 4 lb, Ammunition (range 15/60), light, special. Special: Holds 4 bolts in a cartridge. It automatically reloads after firing until it runs out of ammunition. Reloading the cartridge takes an action.

Cost, weight, and cartridge capacity are the variables. Technically, this still leaves the single crossbow more powerful in a given turn (due to being able to carry a shield or otherwise use the free hand), but it has such limited capacity that the single crossbow is going to run out fast and have to give up an action to reload.

The concern is whether this then renders other ranged methods obsolete. I will leave that to more experienced members of the community to discuss (and then I can chime in when my limited experience can offer any insight).

[Quintessence]

Hand crossbows go from flavor (I wouldn't call any weapon pointless, except for some bludgeoning weapons - har har), to overpowered when you combine the archery fighting style (+2 to hit), sharpshooter fighting style (-5/+10), a high DEX, and the crossbow mastery feat (attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action).

A level 1 variant human fighter with a 16 DEX, archery fighting style, and the crossbow mastery feat attacks twice at +0 to hit and does 1d6+13 on each attack. That can not be matched.

You can't have sharpshooter AND crossbow mastery at level 1 :/

[Klorox]

You can't have sharpshooter AND crossbow mastery at level 1 :/

My bad! You're right, of course!

Level 1 would be with just the crossbow master feat, 16 DEX, and archery fighting style, resulting in two attacks with +5 to hit and 1d6+3 damage. It's still quite impressive.

[djreynolds]

It's just like fighting with a shortsword and dagger combo. I can stab a monster and now toss a dagger or shoot off a hand crossbow at his buddy 10 ft away. But I can do with it sharpshooter for +10 extra damage. And my range with hand crossbow is farther, and if I can get hands on archery style that -5 is now -3. And I can use this melee without disadvantage.

[Zalabim]

It's also significantly better for rogues as they can get 2 attacks per turn in comparison to a shortbowlight crossbow.

2 attacks means a much higher chance at sneak attack which means a much higher DPR.

If you have somewhere to snipe from, hiding and shooting a light crossbow is a nice, accurate baseline option. Crossbow Expert edges it out, but feats are supposed to do something for you. I don't think it's too bad, on the rogue. There's the tradeoff with the dexterity ASI and if you're hiding for advantage, you can pick any target that can't spot you instead of only targets already engaged in melee. Rogues get pretty much guaranteed stealth checks right near when they get their bonus feat. I think you lose a little situational awareness when you unlock the ability to just run in guns blazing.

You brought up something I hadn't considered before. If you take away the single-weapon bonus action attack aspect, it might be balanced to allow shield + one-handed ranged weapon, similar to throwable weapons. A lot of talk goes to the fluff of dual wielding hand crossbows, but the balance concern is using hand crossbow and shield, since the rule allows the bonus action attack.

Also, there is no special action for loading a crossbow. It's just part of what you do when you use an action to fire a crossbow. There probably was a loading action at some point, and the "loaded" rule also means you're not pistol-whipping them really fast when you're out of bolts. However you work the feat, it's just a general upgrade over TWF with hand axes. More damage on the bonus action, more range, easier to carry ammunition, synergy with another feat, and no problem with sustained drawing for multiple attacks.

[Crgaston]

In real life, if you're wearing a long coat, and you fire a hand crossbow in either hand, then discard them onto the ground, two more come to exist in a quantum state inside of your coat until you decide to draw them. To this day, physicists are stumped as to where the matter comes from, and why it appears in the form of two loaded crossbows, but it's a heavily documented phenomena. Leading theories surmise some kind of antimatter crossbow-resonance waves.

D&D is fairly unrealistic for not representing this, in my opinion. Just imagine how different history would be if George Washington hadn't been able to shoot Hitler in the neck with a crossbow drawn out of his dramatically flowing duster; America would've almost certainly lost the Battle of Gettysburg, and possible the entire Hundred Years War.


You might have won the internet with this one :-)

[Sabeta]

My bad! You're right, of course!

Level 1 would be with just the crossbow master feat, 16 DEX, and archery fighting style, resulting in two attacks with +5 to hit and 1d6+3 damage. It's still quite impressive.

The Nova potential of a Level 5 Fighter who has 16 Dex, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Archery Style, and Action Surge is ridiculous. You're also not really losing anything by taking the feats since you'll get your ASI next level.

+3 To-Hit (Dex +3, Archery +2, PB +3,-5 Sharpshooter)
(3d6+39)x2

If every single hit lands, and we take an average die roll of 4 for damage, then you still hit 102 points of raw carnage. Combine that with anything a Battlemaster might provide, or perhaps even Crits from a Champion (fairly likely at this point, especially if you have advantage) and your DM is going to start adding an extra 100 health to every boss/encounter.

[Kryx]

(3d6+39)x2
There is no x2. The Fighter makes 3 total attack: His normal attack, an Extra attack, and a bonus action attack with the same hand crossbow.

For an average of 10.5+39 = 49.5 if everything hits.

[Zalabim]

There is no x2. The Fighter makes 3 total attack: His normal attack, an Extra attack, and a bonus action attack with the same hand crossbow.

For an average of 10.5+39 = 49.5 if everything hits.

Sabeta is trying to figure in Action Surge. Action surge adds another two attacks (one Action), for a total average of 82.5.

[Sabeta]

Sabeta is trying to figure in Action Surge. Action surge adds another two attacks (one Action), for a total average of 82.5.



you can take one additional action on top of your regular action, and a possible bonus action.


Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn.

According to RAW I can use Action surge to get two more attacks, as well as a bonus action attack from Crossbow Expert. Crossbow Expert doesn't say "once per turn", so you should be able to proc it on your Action Surge since you now have a Bonus Action to use.

[Kryx]

Action surge does not give you an additional bonus attack. The total would be 5 with action surge.

Does the fighter’s Action Surge feature let you take an extra bonus action, in addition to an extra action?
Action Surge gives you an extra action, not an extra bonus action.


The total of a greatsword with action surge would be 2d6+3+10 x4 with a high likilihood of a 5th attack.

+2 To-Hit (Str +4, PB +3,-5 GWM)
(8.33+4+10) = 22.33 x4 = 89.32 or 111.65 if you get the cleave from GWM (Highly likely).

111.65 damage from a GWM build compared to 82.5 damage from a hand crossbow build if everything hits (with a very similar chance to hit).

[Klorox]

The Nova potential of a Level 5 Fighter who has 16 Dex, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Archery Style, and Action Surge is ridiculous. You're also not really losing anything by taking the feats since you'll get your ASI next level.

+3 To-Hit (Dex +3, Archery +2, PB +3,-5 Sharpshooter)
(3d6+39)x2

If every single hit lands, and we take an average die roll of 4 for damage, then you still hit 102 points of raw carnage. Combine that with anything a Battlemaster might provide, or perhaps even Crits from a Champion (fairly likely at this point, especially if you have advantage) and your DM is going to start adding an extra 100 health to every boss/encounter.
BM is undoubtedly the best option if you're going for power. You can turn a miss into a hit.

[Klorox]

Action surge does not give you an additional bonus attack. The total would be 5 with action surge.



The total of a greatsword with action surge would be 2d6+3+10 x4 with a high likilihood of a 5th attack.

+2 To-Hit (Str +4, PB +3,-5 GWM)
(8.33+4+10) = 22.33 x4 = 89.32 or 111.65 if you get the cleave from GWM (Highly likely).

111.65 damage from a GWM build compared to 82.5 damage from a hand crossbow build if everything hits (with a very similar chance to hit).

With bounded accuracy, it is not a "very similar chance to hit."

That +2 from the archery fighting style is *huge*.

[Kryx]

With bounded accuracy, it is not a "very similar chance to hit."

That +2 from the archery fighting style is *huge*.
It's a 5% difference as GWM has +1 from ability score. The idea of assuming everything hits is very flawed though.

You can see the real DPR here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1629776436

Or here is a chart
http://i.imgur.com/0FVGyjv.png

[Xetheral]

With bounded accuracy, it is not a "very similar chance to hit."

That +2 from the archery fighting style is *huge*.

The relatively scarcity of bonuses to hit in 5e can change the opportunity costs of forgoing them (and thus their "value"), but the "similarity" in chances to hit represented by a +2 bonus is identical across all editions: it's exactly a 10-percentage-point change (unless the AC was so high or so low as to "fall off" the d20).

And, as Kryx pointed out above, the difference between the two builds is only +1 (at many levels), since the ranged variant has an extra feat that the melee build can spend on increasing strength.

[CrackedChair]

Well, you could sell hand crossbows for a pretty good chunk of money. Hand crossbows are the most expensive weapon on the weapons table, and a few monsters use them, notably Drow.

Other than that, they are pretty much there as a... concealed crossbow? I don't know, that's my only guess as to why you'd want a hand crossbow.

[WhiteEagle88]

In real life, if you're wearing a long coat, and you fire a hand crossbow in either hand, then discard them onto the ground, two more come to exist in a quantum state inside of your coat until you decide to draw them. To this day, physicists are stumped as to where the matter comes from, and why it appears in the form of two loaded crossbows, but it's a heavily documented phenomena. Leading theories surmise some kind of antimatter crossbow-resonance waves.

D&D is fairly unrealistic for not representing this, in my opinion. Just imagine how different history would be if George Washington hadn't been able to shoot Hitler in the neck with a crossbow drawn out of his dramatically flowing duster; America would've almost certainly lost the Battle of Gettysburg, and possible the entire Hundred Years War.

This is my new favorite thing.

[RickAllison]

Well, you could sell hand crossbows for a pretty good chunk of money. Hand crossbows are the most expensive weapon on the weapons table, and a few monsters use them, notably Drow.

Other than that, they are pretty much there as a... concealed crossbow? I don't know, that's my only guess as to why you'd want a hand crossbow.

Ironically for how expensive they are, the iconic wielding style of the Drow (rapier+hand crossbow) is best accomplished by having a brace of these (as in the pistol brace of pirate days, not the orthodontic or medical braces) and dropping them after each turn.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Action surge does not give you an additional bonus attack. The total would be 5 with action surge.The total of a greatsword with action surge would be 2d6+3+10 x4 with a high likilihood of a 5th attack.
+2 To-Hit (Str +4, PB +3,-5 GWM)
(8.33+4+10) = 22.33 x4 = 89.32 or 111.65 if you get the cleave from GWM (Highly likely).
111.65 damage from a GWM build compared to 82.5 damage from a hand crossbow build if everything hits (with a very similar chance to hit).

Of course, the ability to attack at range means you're going to usually get more rounds worth of attacks in with a handcrossbow wielder, even if their range isn't very good.

Out of curiousity, what if instead of Greatsword and +2 strength you went with Halberd and Polearm Master for your Great Weapon Fighter?

[Kryx]

Out of curiousity, what if instead of Greatsword and +2 strength you went with Halberd and Polearm Master for your Great Weapon Fighter?
You're welcome to copy + modify DPR of Classes in my signature to see how these kind of things affect DPR.

[Belac93]

Extra chance to hit with a maneuver, sharpshooter, that sort of thing. Also very useful for small sized archers.

[BrokenTusk]

elven fighter champion 16 rogue assassin 4 (or 15/5 if you want one more sneak attack die and uncanny dodge but one less feat) Crossbow expert, Sharpshooter, elvish accuracy and 1 ASI to get 20 dex. You still have 3 more ASI so throw in Alert to probably go first, giving assassin advantage.
Chances of getting a crit in one attack: 1-(17/20)^3 = .385875 so a bit under 39%
Chances of getting a crit in one of all of your attacks: 1-(17/20)^12 (3 from EA 1 from BA) =.85775824286 or about 86% chance one of those will be a crit
Action surge brings it to .96705439857 so about 97% chance you will get a crit that round.

Say we switch it around and do 5 champion 15 assassin because we want more sneak attack damage:
Chances of getting a crit in one attack: 1-(18/20)^3 = .271 so a bit over 25%
Chances of getting a crit in one of all of your attacks: 1-(18/20)^9= .612579511
Action surge nets you .7941088679 so a bit under 80% chance to do 15+18d6 +misc (magic, Bard Inspire, what have you)

But what about after the first round?
Hopefully you have teammates that are blinding, paralyzing,etc. the enemy or making you greater invisible. If someone gets knocked prone get in there. Since you don't get Disadvantage because of CE you get the advantage of being within 5ft of a prone target.

[n00b]

necro

2 year old thread.