Does mind blank protect you from yourself? (Well, your own mind affecting spells…)

[Âmesang]

So every so often I like to read through AD&D spells and try to update them to 3rd Edition; two spells in particular are runefinger and Thundaerl's universal taster from Ed Greenwood's "The Wizards Three" series of short stories. Both are classified as illusion (phantasm) spells (and the later is also divination), and in 3rd Edition all phantasm spells are mind-affecting spells. So, if you cast those spells whilst under mind blank… what would happen?

Runefinger: This spell allows you to scribe glowing writing in the air or on a surface, similar to arcane mark but with a shorter duration (1 hour/level), it's always visible, it's no less dispellable (?) than anything else… but you can write more stuff. So if you're immune to your own mind-affecting spells, would that mean that everyone can see your writing except for you? Hope you remember where you wrote things. :smalltongue: Because the spell's so harmless and feels like one of those things that wizards "just do," I decided to alter it from being a 1st-level illusion (phantasm) spell to a 0-level universal spell.

Thundaerl's universal taster: You can identify harmful and contaminated foods, even within metal containers, which the spell outlines in luminous purple flames… but under mind blank would you even see said flames? If you do identify such contaminated foods you can will them to emit illusory, hissing black serpents that everyone nearby can see; so imagine pulling the lid off of a plate and instead of seeing food you see serpents hissing up at you, giving the caster the perfect excuse to destroy the contaminated food. Now due to the Player's Handbook II and Dragon Magic reintroducing duo-school spells I kept it as divination/illusion (phantasm), but it would still be silly if the phantasm's mind-affecting…ness prevents the caster from actually using it, or at least being unable to see the identifying flames. :smallconfused:

[tonberrian]

You can always choose to be effected by spells and effects you are immune to. The example in the player's handbook is an elf accepting the effects of a sleep spell, so you can choose to be effected by mind-affecting spells while under mind blank.

You could also choose not to be affected by them, as well, if you wanted to be an odd duck.

[Âmesang]

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf's resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.
I'm quoting this for future reference; I actually intended to bring that up 'cause I could have sworn I had heard that before but whilst writing the opening post I forgot. :smalltongue: Granted, both runefinger nor Thundaerl's universal taster were statted out as having "Saving Throw: None," but I suppose that just means the caster is willingly accepting the spell's result by default and would thus be suppressing his new found "special resistance to magic" for his own, personal use.

[Crake]

It's worth noting that perhaps some definitions changed from 2nd to 3rd. Phantasms are mind affecting because they exist in the mind of the target. If a phantasm is visible to all, it's more likely that it should be a glamer instead, which is an illusion existing in reality that all can see (or not see in the case of invisibility), and is not mind affecting.

Edit: This is regarding runefinger obviously, and i'm assuming that everyone else can see what you write, since you said its like arcane mark, and it's not just for personal notes that only you can see.

[Necroticplague]

It's worth noting that perhaps some definitions changed from 2nd to 3rd. Phantasms are mind affecting because they exist in the mind of the target. If a phantasm is visible to all, it's more likely that it should be a glamer instead, which is an illusion existing in reality that all can see (or not see in the case of invisibility), and is not mind affecting.

Edit: This is regarding runefinger obviously, and i'm assuming that everyone else can see what you write, since you said its like arcane mark, and it's not just for personal notes that only you can see.
Er, Glamer's are ones that alter sensory information from an object (eg, invisibility). Spells that simply create the image out of nothing are Figments (e.g, the Image line, starting with silent image).

But still, the central point is correct. Neither of them seem like they should still be Phantasms by the 3.x definition of them. Phantasms have Targets. They effect only the Target(s), and nobody else even see it. Even those that effect multiple people simply have multiple Targets, instead of having Areas (contrast Weird vs. Fireball) or effects (Weird vs. Summon Monster). Neither of these sound like they should be Phantasms. Neither seems like they have a specific Target, and anyone can see the results. Fingerune should be a Figment that has an Effect (like Silent Image), while Mage's Universal Taster should be a Divination/Illusion (Figment) with an Area (like Detect Evil).

[DrMartin]

Runefinger: This spell allows you to scribe glowing writing in the air or on a surface, similar to arcane mark but with a shorter duration (1 hour/level), it's always visible, it's no less dispellable (?) than anything else… but you can write more stuff. So if you're immune to your own mind-affecting spells, would that mean that everyone can see your writing except for you? Hope you remember where you wrote things. :smalltongue: Because the spell's so harmless and feels like one of those things that wizards "just do," I decided to alter it from being a 1st-level illusion (phantasm) spell to a 0-level universal spell.

this does not sound like a phantasm. A phantasm can be seen only by the target of the spell, and in this case the spell does not even target creatures. I would say it's a figment, in that it creates something new (the letters that compose the script). A case would be made for it to be a glamer instead (if you see the script appearing as something modifying the surface you are writing on). If the script would also have magical effects on those who see it then it would be a [pattern], and those effects would be mind-affecting, but the script itself would still be there for anyone to see




Thundaerl's universal taster: You can identify harmful and contaminated foods, even within metal containers, which the spell outlines in luminous purple flames… but under mind blank would you even see said flames? If you do identify such contaminated foods you can will them to emit illusory, hissing black serpents that everyone nearby can see; so imagine pulling the lid off of a plate and instead of seeing food you see serpents hissing up at you, giving the caster the perfect excuse to destroy the contaminated food. Now due to the Player's Handbook II and Dragon Magic reintroducing duo-school spells I kept it as divination/illusion (phantasm), but it would still be silly if the phantasm's mind-affecting…ness prevents the caster from actually using it, or at least being unable to see the identifying flames. :smallconfused:

The first part of the spell (identify poisons with purple flames) is just divinations; a lot of divinations spell mark their target with "auras" that only the caster can see; in this case they happen to look like purple flames. The fact that the snakes that appear afterwards are there for everyone nearby to see makes this not a phantasm. The illusions they emit then are a figment, as

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.)


so in my opinion, nothing mind affecting here :)

edit: ninja-ed! damn i´m slow

[Âmesang]

I was initially fearful of making them figments because they "cannot make something seem to be something else." Of course I suppose that all depends on whether the illusory snakes appear atop the food or if the food is made to look like the snakes; so, without further ado… something I should have done in the opening post. :smalltongue:

RUNEFINGER
(Illusion/Phantasm)
Level: 1
Range: 0
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 hour/level
Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: Special
Save: None

This spell causes one of the caster's fingers to appear to flicker with a blue-white flame. (No actual heat or flame is produced.) At will, the caster can cause patterns traced in the air or on a surface by the finger to glow, remaining in place for the spell duration either (chosen during casting) moving with breezes or the movement of an object its traced upon, or remaining stationary despite changing conditions around it.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifThese glowing patterns can't be active magical runes, sigils, symbols, or glyphs, but they can have the appearance of genuine magic, either as instructions to another spellcaster (to cast or use a particular spell, perhaps, or to draw a symbol exactly like this one), or as a ruse to fool intruders. This spell is often used to draw directing arrows or spell out clear (or misleading) inscriptions. Its magic enables the caster to cause the lines made by certain finger movements to glow and other traceries not to, so clear and concise symbols can be created, not an endless squiggly line that "builds up" into one symbol after another.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifThe material component of this spell is a pinch of powdered glowworm, a live firefly, or a bit of phosphorescent fungus.

— DRAGON Magazine #246, April 1998, p. 90
THUNDAERL'S UNIVERSAL TASTER
(Divination, Illusion/Phantasm)
Level: 2
Range: 30 ft.
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 2
Duration: 1 rd. + 1 rd./level
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None

This spell allows the caster (only) to look at foods and see any substance harmful to the caster outlined in luminous purple flames (in the quantities present). The magic penetrates darkness, sauces, and such solid objects such as container lids and layers of meat. If a harmful substance is present, the caster can will the food to emit illusory, hissing black serpents visible to all. This can alert the provider of the food to the wizard's awareness of the threat—or give the caster an excuse for destroying the tainted material along with the dangerous snakes!
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifThe material components of this spell are a berry from any poisonous plant (for example, deadly nightshade) and a piece of snakeskin.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gif(Updated from DRAGON Magazine.)

— Wizard's Spell Compendium: Volume IV, p. 936
I'm still pretty intent on just making runefinger a universal spell instead of illusion because it's fairly harmless and feels silly to deny it to specialized wizards prohibited from illusions. Thundaerl's universal taster is certainly more specialized and if we assume that it merely projects snakes upon the food then making it a sight-and-sound based figment would make more sense (but then I imagine a 3rd Edition version would allow a Will save for disbelief).

(There's something about the phrase "layers of meat" that I find really humorous, ha ha…)

EDIT: It seems definitions between editions may not have changed all that much. Hmm…

Phantasms exist only in the minds of their victims; these spells are never even quasi-real. (The exceptions to this are the phantasmal force spells, which are actually illusions rather than phantasms.) Phantasms act upon the mind of the victim to create an intense reaction—fear being most common.

— 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, p. 82

A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It's all in their head and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

— 3rd Edition (Revised) Player's Handbook, p. 173
…perhaps instead of being area-of-effect spells they should be targeting spells?

[Necroticplague]

Hmmmm......looking at Fingerune in that text, it's actually in a kinda wierd spot, since the spell doesn't directly create an illusion (it instead, buffs you to be able to produce an illusion). Still doesn't seem like much of a Phantasm, though (and you can blame the mislabeling on authorial inconsistency), since it has an area instead of a target, and says that others can see it. Keeping most consistent with similar spells, I think a 3.x update should look something like this:


Illusion (Figment)
Level: 0 Wiz/Sorc
Range: Personal
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 hour/level
Casting Time: Standard Action
Saving Throw:No
Spell Resistance: No

This spell causes one of the caster's fingers to appear to flicker with a blue-white flame. (No actual heat or flame is produced.). While this spell is in affect, the caster can cause patterns traced in the air or on a surface by the finger to glow, remaining in place for the spell duration either (chosen during casting) moving with breezes or the movement of an object its traced upon, or remaining stationary despite changing conditions around it.
These glowing patterns can't be active magical runes, sigils, symbols, or glyphs, but they can have the appearance of genuine magic. Its magic enables the caster to cause the lines made by certain finger movements to glow and other traceries not to, so clear and concise symbols can be created, not an endless squiggly line that "builds up" into one symbol after another.
Material Component: Pinch of powdered glowworm, live firefly, of phosphorescent fungus
Based this off of Disguise Self, which is a similar "buff self with illusion". Except since this makes things out of whole cloth, it's a figment instead of a glamer (the glowing finger might be considered a very minor glamer, buts that's an insignificant part of the spell compared to the majority being a figment-based effect).


Divination/Illusion (Figment)
Level: Wizard/Sorc 1
Range: 30 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: Standard Action
Duration:Concentration, up to 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: None

This spell allows you to look at foods and see any substance harmful to you (in the quantities present) outlined in luminous purple flames . The magic penetrates darkness, sauces, and such solid objects such as container lids and layers of meat. If a harmful substance is present, the caster can will the food to emit illusory, hissing black serpents. Those who interact with the snakes may make a Will save to disbelieve and recognize the snake's illusory nature.

Material Components: a berry from any poisonous plant and a piece of snakeskin.
This one was based off of Detect Poison, for obvious reasons, with some of Detect Evil thrown in (for the duration and area).

[Âmesang]

I'm wondering if maybe I'm just overthinking things too much, as I am wont to do, and should probably try to stay as close to "as is" as I can (via WotC's Conversion Manual) for simplicity's sake:

RUNEFINGER
Universal
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Area: See text
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell causes one of the caster's fingers to appear to flicker with a blue-white flame (no actual heat or flame is produced). At will, the caster can cause patterns traced in the air or on a surface by the finger to glow, remaining in place for the spell duration either (chosen during casting) moving with breezes or the movement of an object its traced upon, or remaining stationary despite changing conditions around it.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifThese glowing patterns can't be active magical runes, sigils, symbols, or glyphs, but they can have the appearance of genuine magic, either as instructions to another spellcaster (to cast or use a particular spell, perhaps, or to draw a symbol exactly like this one), or as a ruse to fool intruders. This spell is often used to draw directing arrows or spell out clear (or misleading) inscriptions. Its magic enables the caster to cause the lines made by certain finger movements to glow and other traceries not to, so clear and concise symbols can be created, not an endless squiggly line that "builds up" into one symbol after another.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifMaterial Component: A pinch of powdered glowworm, a live firefly, or a bit of phosphorescent fungus.
THUNDAERL'S UNIVERSAL TASTER
Divination/Illusion (Figment)
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: See text
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None or Will disbelief (if interacted with); see text
Spell Resistance: No

This spell allows the caster (only) to look at foods and see any substance harmful to the caster outlined in luminous purple flames (in the quantities present). The magic penetrates darkness, sauces, and such solid objects such as container lids and layers of meat. If a harmful substance is present, the caster can will the food to emit illusory, hissing black serpents visible to all. This can alert the provider of the food to the wizard's awareness of the threat—or give the caster an excuse for destroying the tainted material along with the dangerous snakes!
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifMaterial Components: A berry from any poisonous plant (e.g., deadly nightshade) and a piece of snakeskin.
I added the (D)ismissal factor to runefinger 'cause I kept imagining a wizard literally hand-waving the glowing, air-born writing away when it was no longer needed (since even for a low-level character 1 hour/level is a long duration).

Likewise it made sense to me to make Thundaerl's universal taster a Concentration based spell since it combines divination spells like detect evil/magic/undead/whatever with illusion spells like silent/minor/major image; obversely 1 round/level felt like too short of a duration (unless Greenwood was imagining people immediately running upon seeing the snakes?). Then again detect poison's duration is "instantaneous," so I don't know. :smallconfused:

If I had to give Thundaerl's universal taster a more defined area of effect it'd probably be a 30-ft.-radius emanation centered on the caster, otherwise I'd imagine the caster turning his back on the food and the illusory snakes immediately disappearing… and then reappearing when he faces front… or something like that. Runefinger's "0 ft." range not only matches the original but also 3rd Edition's arcane mark, but for an area… well, the area is limited by how far your glowing finger can reach, no?

…speaking of phantasmal killer/weird, the spell creates "a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject," but "you see only a vague shape." Now since the original intent of this thread was figuring out how your own mind-affecting spells affect you whilst under a mind blank, that leads me to wonder if such a caster wouldn't see any vague shapes at all? :smalltongue: Or perhaps anyone under mind blank still sees the mind-affecting effects but immediately recognizes that they're not real?

"This finger of mine glows with an awesome power! It tells me to draw silly gestures at you!"

EDIT: Regarding Necroticplague's mentioning of phantasms and targets, cone of dimness from the Spell Compendium is an example of a phantasm spell that has an area instead of specified targets. Also, if it helps, runefinger was accompanied by an illustration of Elminster playing tic-tac-toe with it. :smallcool:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can always choose to be effected by spells and effects you are immune to. The example in the player's handbook is an elf accepting the effects of a sleep spell, so you can choose to be effected by mind-affecting spells while under mind blank.I'm pretty sure that most characters aren't effected by spells. They're effected by their parents.

Or by the players, depending on how meta you get.