For Those Scoffin' at the Frenzy: Y'all Wrong

[Specter]

This is a bit late, but I've played a campaign alongside a Frenzy Barbarian, and he didn't disappoint. At all.

With an EK (me), an Illusionist, a Grassland Druid and the Frenzy Barbarian, all at level 8, we didn't have to worry about the classic "dominated Barbarian chewing through his allies' when we went up against fey. Much better than carrying more stuff or seeing from afar, I'll say.

Everybody hates the exhaustion that the frenzy brings, but then again, the choice between being fatigued and dying is no choice at all. When the going gets tough, you get tougher. After all, disadvantage on ability checks won't even matter sometimes, and a long rest resets it.

Others will say that a Totem Barb can fight with two weapons the same way, but the choice between dealing d6 damage and dealing d12 damage with Great Weapon Master is also not a choice. And you don't need to wait for round 2 to draw that second sword.

Anyway, if you don't see your Barbarian as an exotic shaman, don't be afraid to scream and foam in the face of your enemies. It works.

[Zman]

But, you only get to Frenzy once per day before exhaustion becomes cumulative. Also, Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Mastery which are the most e ffective damage increasing melee feats greatly reduce the effectiveness of Frenzy.

[jas61292]

Frenzy is one of those abilities (of which there are a decent amount) which I see hated on a ton by people who never want to play them, but never really disliked by those with experience with the class. The fact is, it seems punishing in theory, but I don't think exhaustion is nearly as bad in practice. Now a lot of that may be the fact that people don't really play the suggested encounters per day, but I have yet to really hear huge complaints from someone playing the class.

As someone playing a berserker right now, I have never regretted having the ability. Now, to be fair, my group does not allow Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master, which causes the value of a full extra attack from frenzy to skyrocket. But even ignoring that, my favorite thing about Frenzy has been that it is an extra attack not tied to the attack action. While sadly, my group has been on a fairly long hiatus due to scheduling issues (which will hopefully end this weekend :D), one of the more recent standout moments for me was defeating a teleporting fiend because I was able to use the dash action and still get an attack in. Now, obviously you can do that with a couple levels of rogue, but that totally doesn't fit with a lot of builds, including mine. And, of course, dash is not the only action you can do. You can do just about anything, and still smash with your maul. I've found frenzy's advantage to be far more than just more damage. Though the more damage part is really nice.

[2D8HP]

Anyway, if you don't see your Barbarian as an exotic shaman, don't be afraid to scream and foam in the face of your enemies. It works.Good to know. Thanks!
:smile:

BTW
The thread title:

"For Those Scoffin' at the Frenzy: Y'all Wrong",

is a bit subtle.
How do you really feel?

:wink::

:biggrin:

[Theodoxus]

Just to reiterate Z-Man and Jas, Berzerker is an awesome Path if you're either not playing with feats, or you need ASIs to boost Str/Con. PAM and GWM become potential trap choices; PAM more so than GWM, as you can use the bonus attack every round regardless of circumstances.

My HOrc Berserker with both PAM and GWM frenzied all of once, because he needed the 1d10 tertiary attack to beat down a polymorphed great ape. Otherwise, it was just a ribbon.

Now, looking at the rest of the Path's abilities vs Totem or Battlerager, the immunity to charm is meh - if it was enchantment, that'd be nice, but charm? Very niche. I'd rather have the fast tracking of the wolf totem... Battleragers temp hit points just makes the crazy HP juggernaut that much meatier...
Intimidating presence? You want me to chase down my prey like a rabbit? Aww, man... that sucks. Commune with nature is also pretty niche, but I could see some bennies, if you're close enough to an enemy compound to use it to reconnoiter, but far enough away that you're not caught with your pants down... Battlerager Charge takes the Charger feat and turns it inside out... better than either option.
Retaliation is sweet - especially if you went with a 14/6 barogue (go swashbuckler for added Initiative fun and not being wholly reliant on reckless attack to get sneaks) build. An extra sneak chance when you get hit? Sure, it's only 3d6, but that's 1.5 times your greatsword (that you're totally not using, because it's not finesse), probably twice a round if you're using reckless attack... Go paired short swords... Brutal Critical; 3d6 (4d6 if HOrc)x2 +3d6 sneak (probably x2) makes you a beast... Totem, you get a mark, fly, or knocking things prone as a bonus... flying nice. Marking makes your a legit tank finally... prone? You're pushing stuff over anyway, if that's your dealio - and better hope you don't have many ranged folk in your party - that'll just make them angry. Spiked retribution is death by a thousand cuts. If 3 points of damage makes that much difference, at 14th level, I feel sorry for you...

So, in comparing the three Paths - for a low level campaign topping out by 10th level, I'd go Totem or Battlerager (def BR if I didn't have to be a slow dwarf).
14 or higher, probably Berserker - especially if we were playing Point Buy and I was needing the ASIs.

[DracoKnight]

My experience with the Berserker was phenomenal, especially because their bonus action attack isn't tied to the attack action, so I can Help the Fighter knock our enemy prone so that the Fighter has advantage on their subsequent attacks, and the Rogue has advantage, and so do I on my Frenzy attack. Or as mentioned, Dash is nice - although disengage and dodge are wasted on a barbarian.

[Strill]

Others will say that a Totem Barb can fight with two weapons the same way, but the choice between dealing d6 damage and dealing d12 damage with Great Weapon Master is also not a choice. And you don't need to wait for round 2 to draw that second sword.

No they don't. They say the Totem Barb gives advantage to all your melee allies, all the time, forever, and that far outweighs the piddly extra attack that Frenzy gives you for one fight per day.


My experience with the Berserker was phenomenal, especially because their bonus action attack isn't tied to the attack action, so I can Help the Fighter knock our enemy prone so that the Fighter has advantage on their subsequent attacks, and the Rogue has advantage, and so do I on my Frenzy attack. Or as mentioned, Dash is nice - although disengage and dodge are wasted on a barbarian.

Alternatively you could have taken Wolf Totem and given them advantage without having to even take an action.

[MaxWilson]

Others will say that a Totem Barb can fight with two weapons the same way, but the choice between dealing d6 damage and dealing d12 damage with Great Weapon Master is also not a choice. And you don't need to wait for round 2 to draw that second sword.

Eh? Frenzy doesn't kick in until the second round, so what point are you making here?

[DeAnno]

Eh? Frenzy doesn't kick in until the second round, so what point are you making here?

That's the ugliest thing about Frenzy really. You pay such a huge cost for it, and you don't get an attack in return for a whole round after you activate it. A lot of bad things can happen in that round, especially in a fight big enough that you decided to Frenzy.

[DracoKnight]

Alternatively you could have taken Wolf Totem and given them advantage without having to even take an action.

But if you're going totem, why didn't you take Bear at 3rd? :P

[Strill]

But if you're going totem, why didn't you take Bear at 3rd? :P

Because if you have a few melee party members, Wolf is just as good, if not better than Bear.

[2D8HP]

Don't argue.

Just bear it.

:wink:

[Strill]

Don't argue.

Just bear it.

:wink:

Well, if this is a thread where smiley faces trump logical thought, then I'll be leaving. you can keep your intellectual cesspool of a thread.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Frenzy wouldn't be so bad if they just didn't make Bear totem soooo good. The Bear Totem 3rd level resistance add-on to rage is crazy OP, especially for 3rd level.

[GorogIrongut]

People tout the wonders of Bear... but I've actually seen more use gotten out of Wolf and Eagle. There's a dex barbarian in my party who took eagle and just dances around in combat killing everything. He's more mobile than my Bardbuckler.

[2D8HP]

Well, if this is a thread where smiley faces trump logical thought, then I'll be leaving. you can keep your intellectual cesspool of a thread.Punny you should say that.
No it just seemed like an obvious joke in the spirit of OOTS that someone should make.
I fully concede that your mastery of rules "crunch" and PC optimization far surpasses mine. No offense was intended.

[wunderkid]

So basically what I'm reading so far is IF you play a game without feats (which does sound dull to me) then Frenzy is still not as good as totem but closes the gap a little.

Doesn't make it good. It's still the biggest pile of jank in 5e

[2D8HP]

It's still the biggest pile of jank in 5eMaybe, but sometimes the choice of what our PC's are is not based on what is "optimal".
While all else being equal I'd like my PC's to survive and triumph, for "flavor" reasons so far in 5e I've only played non-magic using PC's, as I prefer to role-play normal mundane mortals exploring and confronting a magical world and the uncanny, without having the advantages of supernatural powers that classes such as the Totem Barbarian have. Ultimately it's a "fluff" not a "crunch" decision for me, that has me playing a Fighter, a Rogue, and a "Frenzy" Barbarian instead of what are said to be more "optimal" choices, but that is what's fun for me.

[R.Shackleford]

Maybe, but sometimes the choice of what our PC's are is not based on what is "optimal".
While all else being equal I'd like my PC's to survive and triumph, for "flavor" reasons so far in 5e I've only played non-magic using PC's, as I prefer to role-play normal mundane mortals exploring and confronting a magical world and the uncanny, without having the advantages of supernatural powers that classes such as the Totem Barbarian have. Ultimately it's a "fluff" not a "crunch" decision for me, that has me playing a Fighter, a Rogue, and a "Frenzy" Barbarian instead of what are said to be more "optimal" choices, but that is what's fun for me.

It really isn't even about optimal.

It is just a poorly designed feature through and through. The biggest two problems is...

Punishes a player for using it. Use this feature and you.become less effective at being a barbarian. Use this feature too much and you die.

High cost to get it going. Bonus Action for an attack? That's nice but to get rage going you need to use that bonus action...

Plus it makes no sense why you gain exhaustion at higher levels. At level 11 ish the Fighter can attack three times per action and suffer no draw backs but the Barbarian somehow gets tired? What?

Hell, a level 5 dual wielding fighter can make a bonus action attack that deals weapon + mod damage. A non-Frenzy barbarian or fighter can use PAM as a bonus action and they don't getc tired...

There is so many issues with this before you start talking about optimizing. The ability just doesn't add up.

Yeah Frenzy has some good.damage behind it, but it is still quite weird and doesn't mesh well with the game

[WickerNipple]

For Those Scoffin' at the Frenzy: Y'all Wrong

Mmmmmm. No, I don't think we are.

Is it a viable character? Of course. Everything in 5e is a viable character.

Does it deserve to be scoffed at for its terrible design choices? Yes, yes it does.

[Naanomi]

Tiger totem was the nail in the frenzy coffin for me. Want an extra attack with the great axe? Tiger totem

[EKruze]

For what it's worth I've found that the Berserker subclass absolutely excels in Adventurer's League play.

Over the course of several adventuring days the Berserker is functionally limited to one Frenzy per day of the cumulative effects of the condition will become overwhelming but if the entire session is contained within a single day you can frenzy three times before the Berserker really falls behind on the fourth use. Your typical two or four hour DDAL module will probably not include more than four encounters. Within this context the bonus action attack of Frenzy is terrific and synergizes quite well with Reckless Attack and Great Weapon Master together.

I agree with other posters that the existence of Polearm Master does diminish the relative effectiveness of the Frenzy ability but if has been my experience that Barbarians are one of the more feat-hungry classes in general. A VHuman Berserker can grab GWM at level 1 and spend the rest of his ASIs on stats; the difference is not insignificant.

[EKruze]

Tiger totem was the nail in the frenzy coffin for me. Want an extra attack with the great axe? Tiger totem

At the same level a Tiger Barbarian is getting this bonus attack the Berserker will claim his Reaction Attack.

That particular Totem is probably still too good or at least the Berserker a little too undertuned but you're comparing level 3 and level 14 abilities here. For pure damage output through the course of a fight the Berserker will still come out ahead.

[RulesJD]

Why Zerker is terribad:

1. As stated, GWM. With Reckless Attack and GWM you'll be killing/critting decently reliability. You'll get your bonus action attack anyways from GWM.

2. Polearm Master. Obviously.

3. Even without feats, disadvantage on ALL ability check is huge. The reason people don't think it's so bad is because they don't follow the rules.

Trying to Grapple? Congrats, Disadvantage (cancels out Rage Advantage). Trying to escape a grapple? Disadvantage. Trying to Stabilize an ally because you're the only one left? Disadvantage.

Oh, lets not forget that Long Resting only resets ONE level of exhaustion, NOT all of them.

Lets keep going. Disadvantage = -5 to all Passive ability checks. So your Passive Perception just dropped 5 points. Good luck not being surprised.

But wait, the best is yet to come. What's that you say? Initiative is a Dexterity Check? Why yes, yes it is. So you're now Disadvantaged on Initiative rolls (canceling out your major level 7 Barbarian ability). Which means you'll eat that much more damage before you can Rage.

[Naanomi]

At the same level a Tiger Barbarian is getting this bonus attack the Berserker will claim his Reaction Attack.

That particular Totem is probably still too good or at least the Berserker a little too undertuned but you're comparing level 3 and level 14 abilities here. For pure damage output through the course of a fight the Berserker will still come out ahead.
I'm not saying it's better, just that Frenzy was already 'in the fence' in my mind, and an option that replicates its key feature (even if it comes later) pushed it over the edge in my mind

[jas61292]

Why Zerker is terribad:

1. As stated, GWM. With Reckless Attack and GWM you'll be killing/critting decently reliability. You'll get your bonus action attack anyways from GWM.

2. Polearm Master. Obviously.

3. Even without feats, disadvantage on ALL ability check is huge. The reason people don't think it's so bad is because they don't follow the rules.

Trying to Grapple? Congrats, Disadvantage (cancels out Rage Advantage). Trying to escape a grapple? Disadvantage. Trying to Stabilize an ally because you're the only one left? Disadvantage.

Oh, lets not forget that Long Resting only resets ONE level of exhaustion, NOT all of them.

Lets keep going. Disadvantage = -5 to all Passive ability checks. So your Passive Perception just dropped 5 points. Good luck not being surprised.

But wait, the best is yet to come. What's that you say? Initiative is a Dexterity Check? Why yes, yes it is. So you're now Disadvantaged on Initiative rolls (canceling out your major level 7 Barbarian ability). Which means you'll eat that much more damage before you can Rage.

Obviously, as you said, GWM devalues Frenzy, and PAM is a poorly designed and unbalanced as heck feat that outclasses entire playstyles (one of which happens to be the Berserker). But without feats, you vastly are overstating the downsides of disadvantage on ability checks.

First off, over half the things you mentioned are things the barbarian gets advantage on anyways. Rolling normally is perfectly fine. Yes, Berserkers are not the best Grapplers for that reason, but they are still more than competent enough if they have proficiency. And most people roll initiative without any sort of bonus. Having advantage is sweet, but losing it is not a big deal. Oh no, I have to take a hit without raging once in a while. Well, if you are actually following encounter guidelines, that is nothing new, since you shouldn't have enough rages to always be raging in combat. You are still the guy with the d12 hit die and Con essentially as a primary stat.

As for the other things you mentioned, who cares about Perception? The Berserker I am playing has -1 wisdom and no proficiency already (I can just feel some people cringing at that). So after frenzying, I have a -6 passive, and yeah, I won't see the enemy coming. Good thing this is a team game and the rest of the party has decent perception, including my monk friend who is proficient with it. Sure, if the entire party fails badly enough at perception so that they get in close, I am more likely to be surprised. But usually, that is not going to be the case. And when it comes to stabilizing an ally A) that's what healer's kits are for, and B) If I am raging.... hahahaha.... yeah, not happening, disadvantage or no.

Basically, disadvantage on ability checks is unfortunate, but its not going to make a character worthless, especially one who is not really going to be focused on non-combat skill application in the first place. Barbarians have everything they need to cancel out the worst effects of the first couple exxhaustion levels. The only thing standing in the way of Frenzy being amazing is poorly designed feats: not exhaustion (oh, and arguably the inability to make a frenzy attack the turn you activate your frenzy).

[SharkForce]

My experience with the Berserker was phenomenal, especially because their bonus action attack isn't tied to the attack action, so I can Help the Fighter knock our enemy prone so that the Fighter has advantage on their subsequent attacks, and the Rogue has advantage, and so do I on my Frenzy attack. Or as mentioned, Dash is nice - although disengage and dodge are wasted on a barbarian.

ummm... you know what's better than using the help action to help the fighter knock someone prone?

you just make a regular attack action, and then use one of your two attacks to knock an enemy prone yourself. if it doesn't work, you can make a second attempt. it's kinda like doing the help action, since you get to make an extra check (probably at the same modifier, plus since you're a barbarian you could do it with advantage on each of those attempts, and have a minimum total of your strength attribute), except many times better.

and, since you did an attack action, you get to use things that key off of the attack action.

dash is kinda nice sometimes, but in the round you're most likely to need to dash (the first) you wouldn't get an attack out anyways because you have to use your bonus action to rage.


Obviously, as you said, GWM devalues Frenzy, and PAM is a poorly designed and unbalanced as heck feat that outclasses entire playstyles (one of which happens to be the Berserker). But without feats, you vastly are overstating the downsides of disadvantage on ability checks.

First off, over half the things you mentioned are things the barbarian gets advantage on anyways. Rolling normally is perfectly fine. Yes, Berserkers are not the best Grapplers for that reason, but they are still more than competent enough if they have proficiency. And most people roll initiative without any sort of bonus. Having advantage is sweet, but losing it is not a big deal. Oh no, I have to take a hit without raging once in a while. Well, if you are actually following encounter guidelines, that is nothing new, since you shouldn't have enough rages to always be raging in combat. You are still the guy with the d12 hit die and Con essentially as a primary stat.

As for the other things you mentioned, who cares about Perception? The Berserker I am playing has -1 wisdom and no proficiency already (I can just feel some people cringing at that). So after frenzying, I have a -6 passive, and yeah, I won't see the enemy coming. Good thing this is a team game and the rest of the party has decent perception, including my monk friend who is proficient with it. Sure, if the entire party fails badly enough at perception so that they get in close, I am more likely to be surprised. But usually, that is not going to be the case. And when it comes to stabilizing an ally A) that's what healer's kits are for, and B) If I am raging.... hahahaha.... yeah, not happening, disadvantage or no.

Basically, disadvantage on ability checks is unfortunate, but its not going to make a character worthless, especially one who is not really going to be focused on non-combat skill application in the first place. Barbarians have everything they need to cancel out the worst effects of the first couple exxhaustion levels. The only thing standing in the way of Frenzy being amazing is poorly designed feats: not exhaustion (oh, and arguably the inability to make a frenzy attack the turn you activate your frenzy).

ummmm... i don't even know where to start. the barbarian being able to trade in all kinds of really useful class abilities to be slightly better in one fight is not alright. the feats are not badly designed, the lack of other feats that do the same thing for other weapon styles is badly designed (or, alternately, the fact that several classes lack anything that lets you make use of reaction and bonus actions consistently for warrior types to do their thing is the design flaw).

also, while you probably shouldn't expect to have rage up for every fight (at least, not until you get it as often as you want), that doesn't mean it isn't a disadvantage to take more damage in the fights where you would want to rage. which are most likely the fights where you're the most likely to take lots of damage, and therefore the fights where you most urgently want to not take damage.

all of those things that cancel out the penalties of exhaustion are class features that make barbarians good. those are the selling points of being a barbarian. your subclass shouldn't take away your main class features. in fact, i don't believe there is a single other class where that happens; there are no rogue subclasses that cost you your expertise or remove the ability to sneak attack. there are no bard subclasses that remove your bardic inspiration. the core class abilities are intended to be the baseline of "this is what makes a <class name> a <class name>", and the frenzy barbarian has to give up more and more of them with each time they use their signature subclass ability in a day.

[Specter]

Some Totem features are, indeed, better than Frenzy. But Totem's level 6 features are pure ribbons, while Frenzy's level 6 is a absolute trump card against several spells and monster abilities. It's undeniable that it's better, and when you're judging archetypes it has to be done entirely, not just this and that.

As for the feat, I don't get it. "I need a feat to bonus attack, you don't! Hahaha!". For the exhaustion, one gets, what, another feat they like or +2STR? Fine by me.

[Naanomi]

Tiger totem level 6 is not a ribbon; but the rest are more or less

[SharkForce]

the level 6 totem abilities are not all ribbons. they're not combat pillar options, but they are quite useful in their own way. wasn't there an entire 3.5 build for barbarian that was all about giving them utility through the ability to break objects ridiculously well? because level 6 bear totem gives that, for example.

the elk totem (from SCAG) level 6 ability is noted as being extremely valuable in OOtA, for another example.

[Specter]

Tiger totem level 6 is not a ribbon; but the rest are more or less

True.


the level 6 totem abilities are not all ribbons. they're not combat pillar options, but they are quite useful in their own way. wasn't there an entire 3.5 build for barbarian that was all about giving them utility through the ability to break objects ridiculously well? because level 6 bear totem gives that, for example.

the elk totem (from SCAG) level 6 ability is noted as being extremely valuable in OOtA, for another example.

You know who else gets advantage on breaking, carrying and destroying stuff? Any raging barbarian. So essentially, you get a rage benefit without being in a rage. Hardly worth a feature. Comparing that to rage immunity to Crown of Madness, Geas, Dominate Person, Suggestion, dragons' presences, mummies, etcetcetc... yeah, it's horrible.

[SharkForce]

you can't afford to rage in every fight. you really think you're gonna be able to rage any time you might conceivably want to break an object if you really try to make use of your ability to break objects?

"non-combat ability" does not mean "ribbon". the bear totem ability lets you break doors, traps, statues, walls (potentially), knock down trees, shove boulders onto enemies, and so forth. a ribbon is an ability that provides flavour, but isn't of much use. not just combat use, but not use. the example ribbon (storm sorcerers ability to change the direction of wind) is a ribbon because it doesn't come up often, not because it isn't a combat ability. the bear totem level 6 ability may not be a ribbon... but you can easily make use of it regularly if you're not concerned about stealth.

[JumboWheat01]

you can't afford to rage in every fight. you really think you're gonna be able to rage any time you might conceivably want to break an object if you really try to make use of your ability to break objects?

"non-combat ability" does not mean "ribbon". the bear totem ability lets you break doors, traps, statues, walls (potentially), knock down trees, shove boulders onto enemies, and so forth. a ribbon is an ability that provides flavour, but isn't of much use. not just combat use, but not use. the example ribbon (storm sorcerers ability to change the direction of wind) is a ribbon because it doesn't come up often, not because it isn't a combat ability. the bear totem level 6 ability may not be a ribbon... but you can easily make use of it regularly if you're not concerned about stealth.

Indeed. What's the average number of expected encounters per long rest? Six to eight? Something like that? Until you hit level 17, you won't even have enough rages to spend on each and every encounter, much less if a wall or door is in your way.

And as people are SO fond of telling me, "most games" only go up to about level 12ish. So not having to burn one of your limited resources for the day to do some of the stuff you can do when you do burn one is quite handy to have.

Plus you can now totally back-pack that foolish paladin who let his self-righteous and holier-than-thou ways get himself knocked unconscious. The fool.

[Lombra]

I did play a berserker and I did enjoy it. Rage muffles the exhaustion levels up to the third cumulative level, and the fluff of the ability is gorgeous. Being mind-control-free is priceless, trust me.

This is not to say that berserker > totem, but to say that berserker != totem in a good way: both have their separate spots on the battlefield and in the party, of equal relevance.

[MaxWilson]

Indeed. What's the average number of expected encounters per long rest? Six to eight? Something like that? Until you hit level 17, you won't even have enough rages to spend on each and every encounter, much less if a wall or door is in your way.

There is no average expected number, because there is no "expected" difficulty.


Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average
luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six
to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the
adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers
can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters,
they can handle fewer.

In the same way you figure out the difficulty of an
encounter, you can use the XP values of monsters and
other opponents in an adventure as a guideline for how
far the party is likely to progress.

For each character in the party, use the Adventuring
Day XP table to estimate how much XP that character is
expected to earn in a day. Add together the values of all
party members to get a total for the party’s adventuring
day. This provides a rough estimate of the adjusted XP
value for encounters the party can handle before the
characters will need to take a long rest.

In short, it's whatever fits into the adventuring day budget. Also note that this is a ceiling, not a floor. Nowhere does the DMG ever say "You should make sure the party is pushed to this point before they are allowed to take a long rest." It just says, "If you push them beyond this limit, expect them to break."

Note further that a Barbarian can be forced to spend multiple Rages on a single encounter--Rage goes away if you don't make an attack or take damage during a round, so something as simple as a tactical withdrawal by an enemy can cause it to end. It's important that the DM be cognizant of this and that he build occasional encounters to exploit this***, or else the Barbarian's 15th level Relentless Rage ability will be pointless.

*** In order to avoid player disempowerment, you should also build and use these exact same kinds of encounters regardless of whether or not there is a Barbarian in the party at the moment, so that when players read the PHB they think, "Oh, that ability would have been useful last month when such-and-such happened." Don't customize the game to your PCs. Let them customize themselves to your world.

[WickerNipple]

Being mind-control-free is priceless, trust me.

But they're not. They're only immune to charm and fear.

[jas61292]

But they're not. They're only immune to charm and fear.

Well, most mind control involves charming. Not all mind related effects, true. But most of the most detrimental ones.

[CrackedChair]

The thing about the Frenzy ability is it's not actually just rage, it's mind-sickening rage. You become so focused on destruction that you throw all your energy into just the act of attacking and destroying stuff...

What I do when I play a Beserker is I keep attacking objects to sate my rage. Pretty much anything that can be an applicable target, save for my allies and neutral entities, I make an attack against to keep the rage going.

Granted, it's a powerful ability, but the Beserker is not for everybody, but if played right, you can surely reap the rewards... and man oh man is Retaliation a great ability.

[Tanarii]

As for the other things you mentioned, who cares about Perception? The Berserker I am playing has -1 wisdom and no proficiency already (I can just feel some people cringing at that). So after frenzying, I have a -6 passive, and yeah, I won't see the enemy coming. Good thing this is a team game and the rest of the party has decent perception, including my monk friend who is proficient with it. Sure, if the entire party fails badly enough at perception so that they get in close, I am more likely to be surprised.Your character is surprised or not surprised based on her individual Perception (usually passive) vs any of your opponents Stealth checks. (In effect their worst Stealth check.) Your party member's Perception scores have jack-all to do with if your character is surprised or not.

[jas61292]

Your character is surprised or not surprised based on her individual Perception (usually passive) vs any of your opponents Stealth checks. (In effect their worst Stealth check.) Your party member's Perception scores have jack-all to do with if your character is surprised or not.

In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. You are only surprised if you are unaware when combat begins. If your opponents sneak up to you and attacks while you are unaware, then yeah, you are surprised. But if your party has good perception, and the enemy is noticed before combat begins, there simply is no surprise, period (so long as whoever sees the enemy alerts the party).

[Tanarii]

In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. You are only surprised if you are unaware when combat begins. If your opponents sneak up to you and attacks while you are unaware, then yeah, you are surprised. But if your party has good perception, and the enemy is noticed before combat begins, there simply is no surprise, period (so long as whoever sees the enemy alerts the party).You're adding additional Perception checks that aren't called for in the rules. Effectively negating a weakness that the rules explicitly include.

Edit: To be clear, what you're describing is exactly what each individual characters Passive Perception vs all enemy Stealth check before combat is for. Noticing the enemy before combat begins when they are attempting to be stealthy / ambush. You're apparently adding an uncalled for "any character vs all stealth checks" check before that.

Also note if the other side isn't attempting to be stealthy or ambush, there is no chance of surprise at all. So if you're adding a perception check to notice the other side when they're not being stealthy, that's actually something that should be happening automatically that you're requiring a check for.

[jas61292]

You're adding additional Perception checks that aren't called for in the rules. Effectively negating a weakness that the rules explicitly include.

I disagree. Though it really depends on the situation. Enemies that are sneaking up have to use Stealth vs. Passive Perception. This should be checked as soon as there is a potential for someone in the party to see them, not whenever they decide to initiate combat. If they are noticed by anyone in the party before combat is initiated, the entire party can take countermeasures, and avert surprise.

But the point is that yeah, if you are in a dungeon and you are ambushed as soon as you get into a room, yes, your own passive perception is important for making sure you are not surprised. However, if you are out in a forest and someone is trying to sneak up on you and your ally notices them when they are still far away, they have ample opportunity to alert you, so you can be prepared and not surprised if and when the opponent attacks.

[Tanarii]

I disagree. Though it really depends on the situation. Enemies that are sneaking up have to use Stealth vs. Passive Perception. This should be checked as soon as there is a potential for someone in the party to see them, not whenever they decide to initiate combat. If they are noticed by anyone in the party before combat is initiated, the entire party can take countermeasures, and avert surprise.Disagree all you want, but the rules show you to be wrong. The rules are explicit: if neither side is attempting to ambush/stealth, there is no surprise. If one or both sides are attempting to ambush, each creature on each side determines if it is surprised individually by checking it's Passive perception vs all enemy stealth checks. This is all clearly spelled out in the Surprise section of the Combat chapter. (p. 69 of the Basic Rules. Not sure of PHB page.)


But the point is that yeah, if you are in a dungeon and you are ambushed as soon as you get into a room, yes, your own passive perception is important for making sure you are not surprised. However, if you are out in a forest and someone is trying to sneak up on you and your ally notices them when they are still far away, they have ample opportunity to alert you, so you can be prepared and not surprised if and when the opponent attacks.There is no difference in the rules for surprise between being in a forest or being in a dungeon. There might be a difference in encounter starting distance, but not in the surprise rules.

[wunderkid]

There is no average expected number, because there is no "expected" difficulty.



In short, it's whatever fits into the adventuring day budget. Also note that this is a ceiling, not a floor. Nowhere does the DMG ever say "You should make sure the party is pushed to this point before they are allowed to take a long rest." It just says, "If you push them beyond this limit, expect them to break."

Note further that a Barbarian can be forced to spend multiple Rages on a single encounter--Rage goes away if you don't make an attack or take damage during a round, so something as simple as a tactical withdrawal by an enemy can cause it to end. It's important that the DM be cognizant of this and that he build occasional encounters to exploit this***, or else the Barbarian's 15th level Relentless Rage ability will be pointless.

*** In order to avoid player disempowerment, you should also build and use these exact same kinds of encounters regardless of whether or not there is a Barbarian in the party at the moment, so that when players read the PHB they think, "Oh, that ability would have been useful last month when such-and-such happened." Don't customize the game to your PCs. Let them customize themselves to your world.

Well the DMG does clearly say 6-8 encounters between long rests so there is an expected number. However yes the DM can vary this by throwing fewer harder or greater easier encounters at you. But that should be differencing from the normal structure rather than being the norm.

But yes running away from the Barbarian for a turn or two is a very good way to make them waste rages. Along with many CC spells. Which just hurts Frenzy even more really as not only do you lose a rage you also now have a potentially 24 hour debuff applied to you.

[Vogonjeltz]

Why Zerker is terribad:

1. As stated, GWM. With Reckless Attack and GWM you'll be killing/critting decently reliability. You'll get your bonus action attack anyways from GWM.

2. Polearm Master. Obviously.

3. Even without feats, disadvantage on ALL ability check is huge. The reason people don't think it's so bad is because they don't follow the rules.

Trying to Grapple? Congrats, Disadvantage (cancels out Rage Advantage). Trying to escape a grapple? Disadvantage. Trying to Stabilize an ally because you're the only one left? Disadvantage.

Oh, lets not forget that Long Resting only resets ONE level of exhaustion, NOT all of them.

Lets keep going. Disadvantage = -5 to all Passive ability checks. So your Passive Perception just dropped 5 points. Good luck not being surprised.

But wait, the best is yet to come. What's that you say? Initiative is a Dexterity Check? Why yes, yes it is. So you're now Disadvantaged on Initiative rolls (canceling out your major level 7 Barbarian ability). Which means you'll eat that much more damage before you can Rage.

A few quibbles with your certainty:

1) Advantage (i.e. Reckless Attack) adds only +4.75% to the base 5% crit chance. (9.75% total). So assuming the Barbarian has 2 attacks, they'll get that bonus action attack approximately once every 5 rounds. So, for the cost of an entire feat they can get 1/5 of the value of the Frenzy feature.

2) Is a trap option, this is known. Requires crippling a character into a 1d10 + 1d4 vs 1d12 attacks. Each d10 is -1 damage, on average, the d4 is running at -4 for a net of -6 per round. Worse, this is compounded by the Brutal Critical feature which increases the gap by an additional -1 and -4 for each extra die (i.e. -5 per regular attack crit and an astounding -20(!!) for each bonus action crit.

3) Grappling is simply a non issue, wielding a 2h is mutually exclusive with grappling and as you concede, the level 7 Barbarian ability offsets the effects of exhaustion in terms of initiative.

[jas61292]

if neither side is attempting to ambush/stealth, there is no surprise.
Of course.

If one or both sides are attempting to ambush, each creature on each side determines if it is surprised individually by checking it's Passive perception vs all enemy stealth checks.
Also quite true.

There is no difference in the rules for surprise between being in a forest or being in a dungeon. There might be a difference in encounter starting distance, but not in the surprise rules.

This is where I disagree. Simply noticing someone, or alternatively, simply attempting to sneak up on someone is not in and of itself initiating combat.

I don't have my PHB on me, but a quick look at the basic rules makes believe there is absolutely nothing in the rules about starting distance or anything like that. In fact, the rules indicate surprise is determined when combat starts, not when an encounter begins: "If the adventurers encounter a hostile creature or group, the DM determines whether the adventurers or their foes might be surprised when combat erupts." Furthermore, this follows a section on how there are multiple things groups can do when encountering other creatures, with combat being only one of them. Not to mention it follows a section on how passive perception is for noticing hidden creatures, completely independently of anything to do with combat.

As far as I can see here, if you notice someone from far away in a forest, you might start an "encounter", but you do not start combat, unless one party or the other decides to attack. Which means surprise is never even determined in the first place.

[JumboWheat01]

Disagree all you want, but the rules show you to be wrong. The rules are explicit: if neither side is attempting to ambush/stealth, there is no surprise. If one or both sides are attempting to ambush, each creature on each side determines if it is surprised individually by checking it's Passive perception vs all enemy stealth checks. This is all clearly spelled out in the Surprise section of the Combat chapter. (p. 69 of the Basic Rules. Not sure of PHB page.)

Page 189 of the PHB.


The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stelath) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any creature or monster that doesn't notice the threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.

Of a similar note on page 182 of the PHB, on Noticing Threats while traveling.


Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the groups, while the characters in the front and middle ranks cannot.

So if you happen to be leading the party or holding the rearguard and you don't notice anything, you could potentially endanger your entire party to a surprise attack if your passive perception score isn't good.

[Longcat]

Frenzy wouldn't be so bad if they just didn't make Bear totem soooo good. The Bear Totem 3rd level resistance add-on to rage is crazy OP, especially for 3rd level.

I'm thinking of swapping that up a tier as a houserule to make the 3 level dip considerably less attractive.

[R.Shackleford]

I'm thinking of swapping that up a tier as a houserule to make the 3 level dip considerably less attractive.

Because anytime martials get anything good, they have to wait forever to get that feature.

Bear isn't OP in the slightest unless you, as the DM, always play to its strengths and never attempt to play toward bear'sites weaknesses. But that is true for any build.

[Zman]

A few quibbles with your certainty:

1) Advantage (i.e. Reckless Attack) adds only +4.75% to the base 5% crit chance. (9.75% total). So assuming the Barbarian has 2 attacks, they'll get that bonus action attack approximately once every 5 rounds. So, for the cost of an entire feat they can get 1/5 of the value of the Frenzy feature.

2) Is a trap option, this is known. Requires crippling a character into a 1d10 + 1d4 vs 1d12 attacks. Each d10 is -1 damage, on average, the d4 is running at -4 for a net of -6 per round. Worse, this is compounded by the Brutal Critical feature which increases the gap by an additional -1 and -4 for each extra die (i.e. -5 per regular attack crit and an astounding -20(!!) for each bonus action crit.

3) Grappling is simply a non issue, wielding a 2h is mutually exclusive with grappling and as you concede, the level 7 Barbarian ability offsets the effects of exhaustion in terms of initiative.

1. You don't factor in the frequency of killing an emergency which can happen frequently and other times less so. Ultimately it will be much more than 1/5th the time.

2. While Frenzied nothing says the bonus action attack from Frenzy has to be the PAM haft attack, therefore the damage loss is only 1damage on average per hit plus the addition 1 on Criticals. PAM is a large benefit while not Frenzied and offers a AoO when approached. So, PAM is not a trap, it is still of significant use, but is less effective than on a non Berserker.

[Zman]

I'm thinking of swapping that up a tier as a houserule to make the 3 level dip considerably less attractive.

My Tweaks simply adds Radient and Necrotic to the damage types that ignore its resistance, don't care how tough you are, you aren't ignoring soul fire nor soul rot.


Because anytime martials get anything good, they have to wait forever to get that feature.

Bear isn't OP in the slightest unless you, as the DM, always play to its strengths and never attempt to play toward bear'sites weaknesses. But that is true for any build.

Bear is very powerful and overshadows the other level three abilities.

[Longcat]

Because anytime martials get anything good, they have to wait forever to get that feature.

Bear isn't OP in the slightest unless you, as the DM, always play to its strengths and never attempt to play toward bear'sites weaknesses. But that is true for any build.

Level 6 is forever? :smallconfused:

This is not about Bear being OP, it's about Bear frontloading its best feature, allowing it to be grabbed easily via multiclassing, thereby decreasing the attractiveness of playing a pure Barbarian.


My Tweaks simply adds Radient and Necrotic to the damage types that ignore its resistance, don't care how tough you are, you aren't ignoring soul fire nor soul rot.


This sounds like a cool idea. I think I might take that.

[R.Shackleford]

Level 6 is forever? :smallconfused:

This is not about Bear being OP, it's about Bear frontloading its best feature, allowing it to be grabbed easily via multiclassing, thereby decreasing the attractiveness of playing a pure Barbarian.



This sounds like a cool idea. I think I might take that.

In a game that typically ends well before or by level 8, yes level 6 is forever.

Bear is strong but not OP and definitely doesn't overshadow Wolf.

If you or your DM is playing to the strengths of bear then it may seem OP, but that just means you need to tweak enemy tactics slightly.

[Klorox]

A few quibbles with your certainty:

1) Advantage (i.e. Reckless Attack) adds only +4.75% to the base 5% crit chance. (9.75% total). So assuming the Barbarian has 2 attacks, they'll get that bonus action attack approximately once every 5 rounds. So, for the cost of an entire feat they can get 1/5 of the value of the Frenzy feature.

2) Is a trap option, this is known. Requires crippling a character into a 1d10 + 1d4 vs 1d12 attacks. Each d10 is -1 damage, on average, the d4 is running at -4 for a net of -6 per round. Worse, this is compounded by the Brutal Critical feature which increases the gap by an additional -1 and -4 for each extra die (i.e. -5 per regular attack crit and an astounding -20(!!) for each bonus action crit.

3) Grappling is simply a non issue, wielding a 2h is mutually exclusive with grappling and as you concede, the level 7 Barbarian ability offsets the effects of exhaustion in terms of initiative.

The difference is the PAM bonus is always available (you do not need to be raging), and never comes at the cost of exhaustion afterwards. It's also an attack at 10' range, with all the other benefits of PAM thrown in. If you want to close in on the barbarian, s/he's getting an attack as a reaction.

[Lombra]

To everyone stating that PAM is better therefore frenzy is useless: a berserker barbarian is not going to get PAM, so there's no point in arguing about it. The berserker is going to have that ASI / feat option that other martials never consider over PAM: my barbarogue rapier-wielding berserker loved tavern brawler.

[SharkForce]

1) polearm mastery makes sense for a frenzy barbarian. you can frenzy on average once per day before you really start to pay an extremely high price. for all the other fights, polearm mastery is a large increase in damage.

2) it is also perfectly reasonable to compare frenzy barbarian to a non-frenzy barbarian. no doubt the frenzy level 6 ability is better than typical use of a totem level 6 ability. but when the other abilities are so nearly fully replaced, the subclass as a whole really suffers.

[Lombra]

1) polearm mastery makes sense for a frenzy barbarian. you can frenzy on average once per day before you really start to pay an extremely high price. for all the other fights, polearm mastery is a large increase in damage.

Once per day? The barbarian isn't basically touched by the exhaustion's effects until level 4.



2) it is also perfectly reasonable to compare frenzy barbarian to a non-frenzy barbarian. no doubt the frenzy level 6 ability is better than typical use of a totem level 6 ability. but when the other abilities are so nearly fully replaced, the subclass as a whole really suffers.

While they CAN be compared it doesn't mean that they SHOULD be compared: they represent two different tropes and two different roles in the party. It's like choosing between a paladin and a cleric: both holy warriors, but one capitalizes on damage while the other has great utility potential.

[Longcat]

In a game that typically ends well before or by level 8, yes level 6 is forever.


There's your problem. Your games end early. Mine always go into low teens, at the very least, and so do most of the official published adventures, which typically go to Level 15.

And whether Bear 3 is overpowered or not is beside the point. It's about reducing the attractiveness of the level 3 dip.

[Arial Black]

And whether Bear 3 is overpowered or not is beside the point. It's about reducing the attractiveness of the level 3 dip.

Why would anyone be motivated to nerf dips?

[Longcat]

Why would anyone be motivated to nerf dips?

Look at all the threads talking about "Warlock 2", and you might see why.

[wunderkid]

Once per day? The barbarian isn't basically touched by the exhaustion's effects until level 4.


Isn't touched by the effects until level 4?

No every single level of exhaustion shuts down the Barbarian class features.

Level 1 - the class feature that makes you a boss at grappling, breaking things, and hell basically doing anything non combat from talking to noticing suddenly suffers disadvantage. The only way to mitigate this is to only Frenzy 1 time in a day and as the last fight before a long rest.

Level 2 - the class feature that gives you movement. Well now you're slower than a halfling. And this makes it incredibly easy to kite the Frenzy Barbarian meaning you can make him waste other uses of rage a lot more easily.

Level 3 - your class features that give you advantage on attacks and saving throws now simply exist so that you don't suck completely. But hey you're giving them advantage to attack you now just so you don't get disadvantage to attack them. Seems like a janky trade off to me.

Level 4 - barbarians being the only class with d12 hit die. Suddenly become as tough as the wimpy wizard.

Every single level of exhaustion is harsh and claiming that you're 'not touched by them' is not true at all, you lose class features. Yes another class with exhaustion would suffer more greatly. But they won't suffer it generally. And they will keep their features on top of now being able to be a better barbarian than the barbarian because you've destroyed most of your class features and turned yourself into a turtle wizard who has lost his glasses and can't seem to find them again.

And if you do hit level 4 in exhaustion well then I hope you enjoy your 72+ hour debuff while every other class in the entire game is back to 100% after 8 hours.

Not to mention if your GM actually enforces exhaustion from other sources. Well then the barbarian doesn't even get 1 use a day that he can mitigate.

But yes. Ignore feats. Use it once before bed. Pray your GM doesn't make your character do any exhausting activities. Hope you don't hit level 11 and see a fighter getting a third attack with no penalties. Never have more than 1 fight a day that is hard so you don't have to use Frenzy. Then maybe just maybe Frenzy is 'ok'.

[R.Shackleford]

There's your problem. Your games end early. Mine always go into low teens, at the very least, and so do most of the official published adventures, which typically go to Level 15.

And whether Bear 3 is overpowered or not is beside the point. It's about reducing the attractiveness of the level 3 dip.

Thanks for the giggle.

My games using core 5e classes typically start at 5 and end somewhere around 15 to 18 ish. We use a leveling system that runs off roleplaying/encounterstrasure and stuff like that. More narrative videogamey in all honesty but that's fine.

What I'm referring to is the polls done before that asked players how far they get in a campaign. I don't have them on me but it was found multiple times that most campaigns don't make it past level 8. And if you use the book's leveling system... Hot damn that takes quite a while to get there.

Also you are forgetting something pretty major. There is no "dip" unless the DM allows the dip. The DM has to allow multiclassing, so all your unfounded fears of Barbarian 3 being too strong in a multiclassing is really a table to table issue and not a system issue.

Even then you are delaying a lot of features if you go 3 into another class.

And really, barbarian 3 is nice but it is pathetically easy to mitigate if you use dynamic encounters. You don't want to do it all the time, but just enough to show an immersive world.

Besides, almost every class is fantastic as a 3 level dip. Yeah, lets start pushing all features back so that you are essentially a level 1 character until level 6, you know, to be fair... Or we can leave the meat of a subclass at levels 2 and 3 so that you don't have to wait 6 or more levels to get some really cool stuff.

[Specter]

But yes. Ignore feats. Use it once before bed. Pray your GM doesn't make your character do any exhausting activities. Hope you don't hit level 11 and see a fighter getting a third attack with no penalties. Never have more than 1 fight a day that is hard so you don't have to use Frenzy. Then maybe just maybe Frenzy is 'ok'.

It's funny you should mention fighters, because if a Berserker reaches level 14 he'll be throwing 4 attacks per round already. Get him and the lvl20 fighter on a duel, and my money's on the frenzy.

[R.Shackleford]

It's funny you should mention fighters, because if a Berserker reaches level 14 he'll be throwing 4 attacks per round already. Get him and the lvl20 fighter on a duel, and my money's on the frenzy.

Which still brings the question up as to why it is exhausting for the Barbarian to throw around more than two attacks but not a fighter... Especially when Barbarians can typically have the same or higher Con...

Wow, could people imagine if the Extra Attack 2 and 3 feature for the fighter caused them to take levels of exhaustion... Wow... That would be hilarious.

[Specter]

Which still brings the question up as to why it is exhausting for the Barbarian to throw around more than two attacks but not a fighter... Especially when Barbarians can typically have the same or higher Con...

Wow, could people imagine if the Extra Attack 2 and 3 feature for the fighter caused them to take levels of exhaustion... Wow... That would be hilarious.

If I were the DM, I would trade that level 10 ability for not being exhausted after a frenzy anymore. But apparently WotC cares about all of this less than we do in every occasion.

[Theodoxus]

To everyone stating that PAM is better therefore frenzy is useless: a berserker barbarian is not going to get PAM, so there's no point in arguing about it. The berserker is going to have that ASI / feat option that other martials never consider over PAM: my barbarogue rapier-wielding berserker loved tavern brawler.

Except when they don't... like my PAM GWM 'zerker. So yeah, maybe if folks wanting to play barbarians read forums for advice, you'd be right... but it does take a little bit of system mastery and understanding action economy to tiptoe past the trap options .

And it's never been 'lol, frenzy is useless, look at all these abilities that allow bonus attacks sans exhaustion' - it really boils down to, does the singular difference in Frenzy, in that it is a bonus melee attack that doesn't require any initiator to use, justify a level of exhaustion?

When compared to the additional attack a hunter can get, provided there are appropriate targets? When compared to the multiple extra attacks that fighters get? I say no.

At the very least, the 10th level Intimidating Presence should have had a rider stating "Also when using Frenzy, when your rage ends, you no longer suffer a level of exhaustion". Or heck, Relentless Rage at 11th could have made it that you can resist a level of exhaustion with the same DC 10 Constitution check, that increases by 5 every time you use the feature. I certainly don't see resisting getting knocked out any different than resisting getting sleepy tired. It would have been a great addition, allowing any barbarian to resist getting exhaustion from environmental effects too.

I'm still convinced that WotC built the barbarian near the start of their 5E work, saw that it was good and walked away, all the while, giving other classes better abilities with no mention of exhaustion - and they just never went back to patch the barbarian in relation to newer work.

[R.Shackleford]

If I were the DM, I would trade that level 10 ability for not being exhausted after a frenzy anymore. But apparently WotC cares about all of this less than we do in every occasion.

As is tradition. WotC has a reputation for putting out awesome base stuff and then not following up on it with anything good... The Seeker from 4e might be the best example of this but there are tons of 3e examples as well (Binder got a little love but stuff like MoI, ToB, and many other things just got... Pushed aside).

But I would be ok with just giving the barbarian immunity to exhaustion at level 10 or 14 along with the current features.

[wunderkid]

It's funny you should mention fighters, because if a Berserker reaches level 14 he'll be throwing 4 attacks per round already. Get him and the lvl20 fighter on a duel, and my money's on the frenzy.

Sorry but the fighter with PAM (yes im including feats because removing them is quite frankly boring) has 4 attacks per round at level 11. One is using D4 granted.

At level 20 the fighter has 5 attacks. And still has his reaction. The barbarian has 4 attacks. 3 in the first round due to having to activate frenzy.

Even without PAM they are on 4 attacks per round each at level 20 only the fighter still has bonus action and reaction to do things with.

And you're also assuming a fight at the start of the day when the barbarian has no Frenzy exhaustion tagged on.

Which as everyone has agreed basically unanimously without exhaustion Frenzy is good. But not worth suffering subsequent fights.

So throw your 3 levels of exhaustion Barbarian vs my fighter. Where's your money now? Hell take a short rest between rounds. Look at the fighter still going full tilt.

And we haven't even considered fighter options yet! Ek has a whole host of shenanigans, and BM could trip or disarm or save it for a riposte if you miss (which should happen on one of your 4 attacks) making it fighter 6 attacks vs your 4 plus the fighter has thrown in some effects too.

And we haven't even looked at action surge which for two rounds makes it fighter 10 attacks barbarian 4.

So at the start of the day it could go either way, my money is 100% on an EK but the rest would be a little more swingy and all is too much maths for me to look at right now.

If the barbarian is at level 3 exhaustion then my money goes with the fighter wins every time.

Now if you completely remove magic items and feats then yeah the barbs damage resistance will win him the fight pretty much every time but a level 20 fighter who doesn't have a way to use his extra ASIs in a useful way and a weapon capable of dealing some form of elemental damage is a pretty laughable thing to begin with.

[HoarsHalberd]

A few quibbles with your certainty:

1) Advantage (i.e. Reckless Attack) adds only +4.75% to the base 5% crit chance. (9.75% total). So assuming the Barbarian has 2 attacks, they'll get that bonus action attack approximately once every 5 rounds. So, for the cost of an entire feat they can get 1/5 of the value of the Frenzy feature.

2) Is a trap option, this is known. Requires crippling a character into a 1d10 + 1d4 vs 1d12 attacks. Each d10 is -1 damage, on average, the d4 is running at -4 for a net of -6 per round. Worse, this is compounded by the Brutal Critical feature which increases the gap by an additional -1 and -4 for each extra die (i.e. -5 per regular attack crit and an astounding -20(!!) for each bonus action crit.

3) Grappling is simply a non issue, wielding a 2h is mutually exclusive with grappling and as you concede, the level 7 Barbarian ability offsets the effects of exhaustion in terms of initiative.

1) No, what GWM's second bulletpoint does is reduce the relative effective strength of the frenzy BA attack by 1/5, as the first bulletpoint makes is overwhelmingly desired by both totem and frenzy barbarians.

2) It's not even a trap option for frenzy barbarians. Frenzy barbs can frenzy 1/day, maybe 2/day at best. The rest of their fights they benefit more from having PM because 2(0.4(1d12+9)+0.0975(4d12+9)) is less than 2(0.4(1d10+9)+0.0975(1d10+9))+0.4(1d4+9)). If I was designing a frenzy barb for maximum damage, I'd pack a polearm and a greataxe because that's how powerful PM is.

3) Using a 2h to attack is mutually exclusive with grappling. Holding it whilst you grapple a foe and shove it to the ground is not.

[RickAllison]

I have to admit that I like the Con saving throw to avoid exhaustion idea. Generally gives at least one free Frenzy, then good chances to avoid exhaustion on the next two saves. That leaves a good room for use of Frenzy without making it unlimited.

[R.Shackleford]

I have to admit that I like the Con saving throw to avoid exhaustion idea. Generally gives at least one free Frenzy, then good chances to avoid exhaustion on the next two saves. That leaves a good room for use of Frenzy without making it unlimited.


It would work if you made the DC stationary and not scaling like I see a lot of "fixes".

But it still doesn't change the fact that so many other things allow characters to attack more times than they normally can without being punished for it.

Fighter, PAM, and Haste (it takes away your turn but doesn't exhaust you... which is weird) comes to mind.

If you want to leave the exhaustion then make it where a barbarian removes all levels of exhaustion on them after a short or long rest at level 7 or 9?

[MaxWilson]

If I were the DM, I would trade that level 10 ability for not being exhausted after a frenzy anymore. But apparently WotC cares about all of this less than we do in every occasion.

That's not a bad idea. I would allow that too.

[RickAllison]

It would work if you made the DC stationary and not scaling like I see a lot of "fixes".

But it still doesn't change the fact that so many other things allow characters to attack more times than they normally can without being punished for it.

Fighter, PAM, and Haste (it takes away your turn but doesn't exhaust you... which is weird) comes to mind.

If you want to leave the exhaustion then make it where a barbarian removes all levels of exhaustion on them after a short or long rest at level 7 or 9?

For Haste, I always saw it as the rubber band of time snapping back.

[Jamesps]

I always thought frenzy was an underestimated ability. It's one of the very few bonus action attacks in the game that has no prerequisite to use in a given round. You don't activate it with an attack action, or even a simple attack like tavern brawler. You can do almost anything with your initial action and still get your frenzy attack.

This is probably most useful when multiclassing with rogue:

Action: I ready an action to attack him if he doesn't surrender
Bonus action: I give him a warning shot, just to show him what'll happen if he doesn't surrender.

Result: Two sneak attacks per round (using reckless attack to insure they hit and have advantage).

I imagine there's other ways to use it, but this seems the most straightforward.

[SharkForce]

there are better ways to get reaction attacks for your rogue levels, too. ways that, once again, do not inflict a level of exhaustion.

[Jamesps]

there are better ways to get reaction attacks for your rogue levels, too. ways that, once again, do not inflict a level of exhaustion.

There are other ways, and they each have advantages and disadvantages associated. Frenzy has exhaustion as a disadvantage, which is probably the worst of the disadvantages (barring maybe a haste gone terribly wrong), but it comes with the most reliability (barring haste, but see above and note the increased level requirement).

[R.Shackleford]

For Haste, I always saw it as the rubber band of time snapping back.

Oh same here, but there is a "punishment" for going past your normal limits.

But even that punishment is nothing compared to the Beserker.

[RickAllison]

Oh same here, but there is a "punishment" for going past your normal limits.

But even that punishment is nothing compared to the Beserker.

Indeed...
For the rising DC idea, what if it just followed the DC of the other big source of exhaustion, Forced March? So the first DC is 10, the second is 11, the third is 12, and so on. It has precedence in the rules, it is consistent, and it lets the Barbarian feel like they are growing. At level 3, the Barb could get exhaustion due to some unlucky rolls, but the level 20 Barb doesn't have to consider the DC until his fifth Frenzy. At higher levels, he only has to worry about Frenzy if he doesn't get the chance to long rest

[Specter]

Everybody's mentioning that feats like GWM and PAM can overshadow Frenzy's features, but don't forget feats cost ASI's, or other feats.

Assuming a point buy and Human, every Barbarian should start with 16STR and 16CON. And if you're going all the way, you definitely want to max those. So the Frenzy guy not only gets his full STR/CON faster, he also can take another feat at 1st level than a Totem guy. And a Totem will surely want Resilient (WIS) to escape the mental shenanigans afterwards, too. Frenzy has more choices earlier.

With Lucky, you can reroll those really bad rolls and avoid critical hits against you, which will increase both HP and damage indirectly.
With Sentinel, you can keep everyone in melee focused on me instead of your frail companions like rogues and monks. And I get to use my reaction to attack even if they don't target me at level 14.
With Tough, well, self-explanatory.

[R.Shackleford]

Indeed...
For the rising DC idea, what if it just followed the DC of the other big source of exhaustion, Forced March? So the first DC is 10, the second is 11, the third is 12, and so on. It has precedence in the rules, it is consistent, and it lets the Barbarian feel like they are growing. At level 3, the Barb could get exhaustion due to some unlucky rolls, but the level 20 Barb doesn't have to consider the DC until his fifth Frenzy. At higher levels, he only has to worry about Frenzy if he doesn't get the chance to long rest

Oh no, no rising DC. That'said the worst thing to introduce into 5e (simple system).

If going the DC route then just leave it at DC 13. As three barbarian gets higher level that DC will be easier to the point where you essentially give them immunity to exhaustion.

[Tanarii]

Everybody's mentioning that feats like GWM and PAM can overshadow Frenzy's features, but don't forget feats cost ASI's, or other feats.

Assuming a point buy and Human, every Barbarian should start with 16STR and 16CON. And if you're going all the way, you definitely want to max those.
You get a bigger net damage benefit from GWM & PAM than Str, so if damage is your primary concern, any Barbarian can sacrifice 4 pts of Str for it.

Edit: this is especially true for Barbarians due to Reckless Attack giving them reliable on-demand Advantage. So they get an even bigger benefit from GWM relative to spending the ASI on Str than most other characters.

[SharkForce]

the berserker largely wants the exact same offensive feats that the totem barbarian has. i mean, you could ignore them i guess. but then your damage would be rather substantially lower in the majority of the fights in a day. now certainly, you can afford to frenzy for a boss fight... but there's something to be said for the guy who can get you to the boss fight without spending all your resources before you get there, too.

particularly since consistent damage is the primary thing a barbarian is expected to bring to a party. i mean, they can bring other stuff (high strength isn't useless by any means), but let's face it, the big thing you're looking for in a barbarian is to get in there and kill stuff. and not just once per day, either, but consistently. you want the warrior to make those earlier fights the kinds of fight where the wizard doesn't feel like burning their highest level slots is necessary, so that the wizard also has their best spells saved for the boss fight.

[CrackedChair]

the berserker largely wants the exact same offensive feats that the totem barbarian has. i mean, you could ignore them i guess. but then your damage would be rather substantially lower in the majority of the fights in a day. now certainly, you can afford to frenzy for a boss fight... but there's something to be said for the guy who can get you to the boss fight without spending all your resources before you get there, too.

particularly since consistent damage is the primary thing a barbarian is expected to bring to a party. i mean, they can bring other stuff (high strength isn't useless by any means), but let's face it, the big thing you're looking for in a barbarian is to get in there and kill stuff. and not just once per day, either, but consistently. you want the warrior to make those earlier fights the kinds of fight where the wizard doesn't feel like burning their highest level slots is necessary, so that the wizard also has their best spells saved for the boss fight.

It really all comes down to the party whenever or not a class is suited to an adventure. Running a campaign consisting of 2 characters is a rather hard task, and spellcasting classes without any bulk will have a miserable time. A fighter or barbarian, on the other hand, will be largely indifferent, mainly due to the fact that they can consistently use their tools and abilities. Throw in a cleric and it's a pretty tight team.

Frenzy... is good, it's not the problem, it's just exhaustion. Any exhaustion gained is bad, due to the fact you lose out on so many things when you gain a level in exhaustion. Disadvantage on ability checks is probably the only thing a barbarian can take, due to not being a skill monkey anyways, and even then, it puts a damper in his ability to contribute.

And really, you have a choice when it comes to whenever or not you want to use the frenzy. If you just want to rage and soak up enough damage with your manly chest, just rage. If you want to absolutely murder something, like say a dragon for it's hoard, frenzy.

[RulesJD]

One thing I forgot to mention is a Frenzy barb is way, waaaay worse if the DM is at all intelligent and so are the enemies.

If so, drop a Hold Person on the Barb. So long as it lasts 1 round, that's a level of exhaustion in combat.

But more importantly, while dropping Rage sucks for every barb, a Totem barb can at least take the risk of popping it again, especially at higher levels. A Frenzy Barb has to really, really want that bonus attack to make it worthwhile, especially if the DM does it a few times throughout the adventuring day. Because that's now 2 full long rests to get rid of, if no Greater Resto available.

[RickAllison]

Oh no, no rising DC. That'said the worst thing to introduce into 5e (simple system).

If going the DC route then just leave it at DC 13. As three barbarian gets higher level that DC will be easier to the point where you essentially give them immunity to exhaustion.

Rising DC is already in the system, considering I just ripped that system from the SRD. So it is not introducing anything, since it already exists within the simple system.

[Theodoxus]

Oh no, no rising DC. That'said the worst thing to introduce into 5e (simple system).

If going the DC route then just leave it at DC 13. As three barbarian gets higher level that DC will be easier to the point where you essentially give them immunity to exhaustion.

I don't understand this, Rusty. Relentless Rage, which is what I was basing the resistance on, has a rising DC associated with getting knocked out. So, it's already introduced to 5E.

In fact, I was thinking the KO and Exhaustion DCs should stack. They're related effects - especially in a HP<>Meat mentality. Getting knocked to zero HPs and making the DC to stay standing is akin to making the same save to not gain a level of exhaustion. It's elegant - and it certainly shouldn't be static. The more you're knocked around, the harder it should be to keep standing.

ETA: Don't forget about potions of vitality. They're a thing, and they remove exhaustion. Certainly not as common as healing pots, but when I play a barb, I look to spend a lot of my hard earned copper on however many I can find...

[MaxWilson]

I don't understand this, Rusty. Relentless Rage, which is what I was basing the resistance on, has a rising DC associated with getting knocked out. So, it's already introduced to 5E.

In fact, I was thinking the KO and Exhaustion DCs should stack. They're related effects - especially in a HP<>Meat mentality. Getting knocked to zero HPs and making the DC to stay standing is akin to making the same save to not gain a level of exhaustion. It's elegant - and it certainly shouldn't be static. The more you're knocked around, the harder it should be to keep standing.

ETA: Don't forget about potions of vitality. They're a thing, and they remove exhaustion. Certainly not as common as healing pots, but when I play a barb, I look to spend a lot of my hard earned copper on however many I can find...

Also, some creatures are immune to exhaustion: skeletons, mummy lords, ochre jellies, etc.

If you can somehow manage to get your Frenzy Barb body-swapped into one of those creatures' bodies, you're all set! Will probably involve some permutations of True Polymorph and Magic Jar, possibly with custom spell research on top.

Edit: also, Moon Druid 10/Frenzy Barb 3 can turn into an Earth Elemental once per short rest and then Frenzy for no exhaustion while in earth elemental shape.

[RickAllison]

I don't understand this, Rusty. Relentless Rage, which is what I was basing the resistance on, has a rising DC associated with getting knocked out. So, it's already introduced to 5E.

In fact, I was thinking the KO and Exhaustion DCs should stack. They're related effects - especially in a HP<>Meat mentality. Getting knocked to zero HPs and making the DC to stay standing is akin to making the same save to not gain a level of exhaustion. It's elegant - and it certainly shouldn't be static. The more you're knocked around, the harder it should be to keep standing.

ETA: Don't forget about potions of vitality. They're a thing, and they remove exhaustion. Certainly not as common as healing pots, but when I play a barb, I look to spend a lot of my hard earned copper on however many I can find...

Alternatively, maybe it shouldn't be a save, but a check. Much like the chase rules on Dashing, Frenzy is about putting the body through more strain than it was prepared to handle. It is not being forced to persevere by some outside influence, it is actively forcing the body to exceed its capacity. Thus, introducing Frenzy's DC as static, but with a Con check instead of a save keeps the DC always a risk (the maximum on it will either be +7 for a pure Barb with 24 Con or +8 if they are sacrificing the final stuff for a Champion multi class or Bard dip. Moreover, this continues the idea of a cumulative DC because exhaustion makes the check more difficult. Then, we get to preserve the greater verisimilitude of an increasing DC while appeasing naysayers like Shack-attack who want to keep the simpler system.

[R.Shackleford]

Rising DC is already in the system, considering I just ripped that system from the SRD. So it is not introducing anything, since it already exists within the simple system.


I don't understand this, Rusty. Relentless Rage, which is what I was basing the resistance on, has a rising DC associated with getting knocked out. So, it's already introduced to 5E.

In fact, I was thinking the KO and Exhaustion DCs should stack. They're related effects - especially in a HP<>Meat mentality. Getting knocked to zero HPs and making the DC to stay standing is akin to making the same save to not gain a level of exhaustion. It's elegant - and it certainly shouldn't be static. The more you're knocked around, the harder it should be to keep standing.

ETA: Don't forget about potions of vitality. They're a thing, and they remove exhaustion. Certainly not as common as healing pots, but when I play a barb, I look to spend a lot of my hard earned copper on however many I can find...

Rising DCs shouldn't be anywhere in this system. That just isn't how the savingthrow/skill/ability check system works. They made a rule and then broke it.

A flat DC makes more sense, as you become better doing the same thing shouldn't get harder. Like... when I first tried to run a mile it was super hard but now I can run 5 miles no problem.

Since i can run 5 miles easily, if I run a mile then rest and run a mile, then rest and run another mile... Running those miles don't get harder.

It would be like making concentration spell rise as you use a higher level spell slot... We just don't do that.

[Tanarii]

Rising DCs shouldn't be anywhere in this system. That just isn't how the skill system works. They made a rule and then broke it.

A flat DC makes more sense, as you become better doing the same thing shouldn't get harder. Like... when I first tried to run a mile it was super hard but now I can run 5 miles no problem.

Since i can run 5 miles easily, if I run a mile then rest and run a mile, then rest and run another mile... Running those miles don't get harder.If you run a mile then make a check, then run a second mile then make a check, then run a third mile and make a check ... yes, it makes perfect sense for each consecutive check to be harder than the one before this.

The DC checks for several things in D&D 5e reflect this, and increase for the second, third, etc attempt. The rule for Barbarians is only one place this happens.

[Zman]

Rising DCs shouldn't be anywhere in this system. That just isn't how the savingthrow/skill/ability check system works. They made a rule and then broke it.

A flat DC makes more sense, as you become better doing the same thing shouldn't get harder. Like... when I first tried to run a mile it was super hard but now I can run 5 miles no problem.

Since i can run 5 miles easily, if I run a mile then rest and run a mile, then rest and run another mile... Running those miles don't get harder.

It would be like making concentration spell rise as you use a higher level spell slot... We just don't do that.


Well, actually those miles are getting harder reflectinng a rising DC, they just might be starting out at such a low DC that the real world you isn't noticing them. Now, if I asked you to sprint a mile as fast as you can and timed you, say 5:30. I let you rest an hour and asked you to do it again, it is highly unlikely you would best that effort, and very likely that you would not. If I let you rest another hour and asked you to do it again I'm betting you don't crack 6:00. The real world is full of diminishing returns. As my job involves owning a gym and working with client daily there is most definitely cumulative fatigue from tasks even from day to day, or set to set, or hour to hour etc.

[R.Shackleford]

If you run a mile then make a check, then run a second mile then make a check, then run a third mile and make a check ... yes, it makes perfect sense for each consecutive check to be harder than the one before this.

The DC checks for several things in D&D 5e reflect this, and increase for the second, third, etc attempt. The rule for Barbarians is only one place this happens.

Thats not what is happening though.

The Barbarian is *doing low level stuff* then waiting a while then *doing low level stuff*.

Essentially running a mile every so often.

The DC shouldn't increase, especially in this system, and especially for a fantasy barbarian that is a physical freak of nature.

It would be like increasing the DC for an easy jump just because you attempt that easy jump multiple times.

[Tanarii]

What easy stuff are we talking about here? The easy stuff that normally gives you exhaustion, or the easy stuff that normally knocks you unconscious? :smallamused:

[RickAllison]

Thats not what is happening though.

The Barbarian is *doing low level stuff* then waiting a while then *doing low level stuff*.

Essentially running a mile every so often.

The DC shouldn't increase, especially in this system, and especially for a fantasy barbarian that is a physical freak of nature.

It would be like increasing the DC for an easy jump just because you attempt that easy jump multiple times.

Well... Yeah. Making an easy jump isn't very difficult on its own, but making numerous jumps is more tiring. Getting up and walking across the room is not difficult, but walking for 20 miles is significantly more so.

[jas61292]

If you run a mile then make a check, then run a second mile then make a check, then run a third mile and make a check ... yes, it makes perfect sense for each consecutive check to be harder than the one before this.

The DC checks for several things in D&D 5e reflect this, and increase for the second, third, etc attempt. The rule for Barbarians is only one place this happens.

Indeed. Checks based on physical exertion should not increase if you have adequate rest between attempts. The only question is, what constitutes adequate rest. For a barbarian's relentless rage, a short rest is necessary. And within the structure of 5e, that makes a lot of sense.

If you want to create a frenzy system that relies on making checks, a rising DC is perfectly appropriate, so long as you think for a bit about what is adequate rest for the feature. And in all likelihood, that means you are going to be looking at a long rest reset time.

[SharkForce]

rising checks makes more sense than a system where you always have a chance. one day you can do something 20 times and not get tired, then after 3 days rest you do it once and suddenly you're tired?

both have their flaws, but if we're talking about realism, i think increasing DC isn't one of them.

(though i still like the simple solution of frenzy costing an extra rage instead of exhaustion; still has a cost, cost is still significant - except at level 20 and frankly i don't care if you're really powerful at level 20 - still something you don't always do, and very simple to do, but gets rid of the exhaustion problem entirely. if you feel like it takes away from your ability to do normal rages, give the frenzied berserker 1 extra rage use per day, and now they can frenzy once per day plus their usual amount of rages before encountering drawbacks... just like current frenzy).

[Longcat]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]
Edit: also, Moon Druid 10/Frenzy Barb 3 can turn into an Earth Elemental once per short rest and then Frenzy for no exhaustion while in earth elemental shape.

This will be my next character :smallbiggrin:

[JumboWheat01]

Is an Earth Elemental capable of Raging and then Frenzying, though? Yes, anyone can get mad, but there's something different about a Barbarian's Rage than your stock, ordinary rage. That is something a DM will have to rule on.

[Saeviomage]

And, of course, dash is not the only action you can do. You can do just about anything, and still smash with your maul. I've found frenzy's advantage to be far more than just more damage. Though the more damage part is really nice.

The combo I was always interested in seeing in action is frenzy + intimidating presence, preferably with a reach weapon. Spending your action to maintain the fear seems like a bad deal, but if you're still getting a bonus action attack each round, you can potentially take down a powerful individual without taking a scratch yourself, all off the back of a single failed saving throw.

[Vogonjeltz]

1. You don't factor in the frequency of killing an emergency which can happen frequently and other times less so. Ultimately it will be much more than 1/5th the time.

2. While Frenzied nothing says the bonus action attack from Frenzy has to be the PAM haft attack, therefore the damage loss is only 1damage on average per hit plus the addition 1 on Criticals. PAM is a large benefit while not Frenzied and offers a AoO when approached. So, PAM is not a trap, it is still of significant use, but is less effective than on a non Berserker.

Correct, I discount the value of the bonus action attack on death significantly as it only comes into play when an enemy dies, and thus may have no impact at all. (If no other enemy is within range or it's the last enemy, for example).

Furthermore, at best that's going to add n-1 attacks, so "much more" is entirely misleading. If the crit chance is giving a bonus attack every 5 rounds then the kill chance is going to 'maybe' give another round of bonus action attack, but if and only if it doesn't occur on the same round that a crit happened. So, it's probably still only every 5 rounds on average.

The comparison was the value of using a Berserker at all for Frenzy vs. Totem Warrior with PAM.

That comparison also doesn't take into consideration that the Berserk could, instead of wasting their feat on PAM, be doing +1 damage from the ASI going into Str (giving them a higher str) or, if we agree that both versions would first ASI until their str was capped, have a different feat that improves their overall damage output (say, GWM which the PAM would not have at that stage, or maybe ever, or Savage Attacker for advantage on one of their damage rolls, or Lucky or any other feat that might make them better.

Berserkers already get a reaction attack down the line for when they are attacked, that competes with the one use reaction from PAM for when they get approached (presumably they will ALSO get attacked at the point, rendering it silly to have had the PAM reaction in the first place). And that reaction would be a d12, again better than the d10 of a PAM weapon.


The difference is the PAM bonus is always available (you do not need to be raging), and never comes at the cost of exhaustion afterwards. It's also an attack at 10' range, with all the other benefits of PAM thrown in. If you want to close in on the barbarian, s/he's getting an attack as a reaction.

Yes, but in addition to lowering the damage on each and every attack, it takes up an ASI slot that could have been better spent improving the Barbarian or their attacks instead of downgrading them. i.e. GWM, Savage Attacker, Lucky, Mobile, MAM, etc...

And Berserkers get a reaction attack upon being attacked, which is probably what's going to happen anyway after distance is closed and is likely to occur more than once per fight per opponent, whereas it's unlikely that a given opponent will approach the Barbarian more than once.


Look at all the threads talking about "Warlock 2", and you might see why.

The cost of Warlock 2 well exceeds the value received.

The problem is that those classes are crippling themselves for a shiny toy, not that it's good.


When compared to the additional attack a hunter can get, provided there are appropriate targets? When compared to the multiple extra attacks that fighters get? I say no.

The big deal is that Frenzy comes online far sooner than Extra Attack, for example, hits harder than TWF or PAM and isn't extremely infrequent ala GWM. It's the single best bonus action attack in the game at the earliest entry point. And yes, Frenzy has an exhaustion cost which can be mitigated, whereas all those other sources have a feat cost which can not be mitigated.


And you're also assuming a fight at the start of the day when the barbarian has no Frenzy exhaustion tagged on.

To be fair, if we look at the modules created by WotC many of them contain many days of downtime between encounter areas (I'm looking at you Out of the Abyss!) during which a Barbarian would fully mitigate any exhaustion acquired.

That being said, there's no requirement to activate Frenzy every time, but it's a valuable option especially for difficult fights and it comes online sooner than Extra Attack even. Playing a Berserker I'd be inclined to Frenzy in at least one encounter on any given day, maybe more if I'm anticipating that there will be a travel phase (i.e. absent random encounters, I'm almost certain to have all the exhaustion wiped before the next fight).

It's a game of expectations and risk the same as a Wizard's spells, do you use that special resource now or save it for later? No different.

[SharkForce]

last i recall, PAM gives *more* damage than +2 strength, not less (likewise with GWM). and as i already said, berserkers should be looking to pick it up themselves (plus GWM of course) because on a class that is supposed to have the role of consistent high damage, PAM offers consistent high damage and frenzy is just a slightly higher spike damage.

and the reaction on PAM isn't once per battle. it's potentially even once per round, though that can certainly be hard to pull off without getting hit yourself.

[MaxWilson]

The combo I was always interested in seeing in action is frenzy + intimidating presence, preferably with a reach weapon. Spending your action to maintain the fear seems like a bad deal, but if you're still getting a bonus action attack each round, you can potentially take down a powerful individual without taking a scratch yourself, all off the back of a single failed saving throw.

Unless they spend a round running away to end your Rage and give you exhaustion.

[jas61292]

Unless they spend a round running away to end your Rage and give you exhaustion.

Well, higher than normal movement speed + secondary thrown weapons makes that not exactly a fruitful strategy. Especially if the barbarian took any other steps to improve their movement. Alternatively, no one said you had to attack that enemy. You could use your action to essentially permanently lock down one enemy while you deal with another using your bonus action attack.

[Specter]

Unless they spend a round running away to end your Rage and give you exhaustion.

Even if Frenzyman is dealing with running people and there's no one around for him to kill, he can simply dash and still attack them. That's the benefit of a bonus attack not tied to the Attack action.

[MaxWilson]

Even if Frenzyman is dealing with running people and there's no one around for him to kill, he can simply dash and still attack them. That's the benefit of a bonus attack not tied to the Attack action.

Okay, but now you didn't use your action on Intimidating presence, so the effect lapses and it's no longer an auto-kill for you. They can now attack you back because they're no longer frightened, since you Dashed instead of growling and flexing your muscles this turn.

Reminder: the context was an idea for combining Intimidating Presence, Frenzy bonus attack, and reach weapons to auto-kill enemies once they fail one save. It doesn't work.

==============================


Well, higher than normal movement speed + secondary thrown weapons makes that not exactly a fruitful strategy. Especially if the barbarian took any other steps to improve their movement. Alternatively, no one said you had to attack that enemy. You could use your action to essentially permanently lock down one enemy while you deal with another using your bonus action attack.

Even if the Barbarian has a high movement speed, that won't prevent Intimidating Presence from lapsing. (It will shield the barbarian from losing Rage/Frenzy though.) It ends if the creature ends its turn more than 60' from you. If you were using a reach weapon at 10', and the creature Dashes for 60', it ends 70' away from you and is no longer frightened.

[SharkForce]

also, intimidating presence is typically not the most likely to work, either. your charisma modifier on a typical barbarian is likely quite low, and decent wisdom saves aren't that uncommon for monsters (really good ones aren't common, but they're probably rolling against 11 or 12... even a +3 is a better than 50/50 chance to succeed, and it isn't terribly uncommon to have that good of a save for enemies that would be worth trading your entire action with at level 10 or higher).

so not only is it not impossible to escape, it isn't all that likely to work either. particularly unfortunate, the creature you target is most likely to be a big melee bruiser (fear isn't quite as devastating against a ranged or spell-using enemy). which probably has reach to fight you anyways, most of the time (i mean, really, how many melee type monsters suitable for level 10 party that are worth giving up your action to CC don't have at least 10 foot reach that you're going to be able to use a polearm to prevent them from attacking you at all? more likely, you're trading your action for their action to be less effective... and i suspect there are many monsters that are willing to trade disadvantage on attacks for your barbarian to not get a full round of reckless attacks on them).

so it's probably a trade of your entire regular action for the enemy's action being less effective, but with only a ~50% or lower chance of success, and they can trade their action for most likely 100% chance to break the effect (though at least you probably got your action's worth out of the deal that way, since they likely didn't do much to anyone with their action). not useless, i suppose, particularly since it also keeps an enemy from going past you to hit the artillery. but man, that's a whole lot of ways for the ability to not be terribly effective even in a situation where it would be good...

[Specter]

Oh yeah, Intimidating Presence blows, even with CHA investment. No doubt about that.

[Zalabim]

Allowing Relentless Rage to apply to exhaustion too is a neat additional idea. I was just thinking of making Frenzy once per short rest and no exhaustion at all.


all of those things that cancel out the penalties of exhaustion are class features that make barbarians good. those are the selling points of being a barbarian. your subclass shouldn't take away your main class features. in fact, i don't believe there is a single other class where that happens; there are no rogue subclasses that cost you your expertise or remove the ability to sneak attack. there are no bard subclasses that remove your bardic inspiration. the core class abilities are intended to be the baseline of "this is what makes a <class name> a <class name>", and the frenzy barbarian has to give up more and more of them with each time they use their signature subclass ability in a day.

Well, there's monks with spending Ki and actions on path features and sorcerers spending sorcery points on bloodline features and the entire UA artificer seemed to be about adding new ways to spend your wizard class features. Many rogueish archetypes add a new bonus action that competes with cunning action, though I admit that probably doesn't qualify in the same category. (I consider a rogue's primary resource their action economy, and that doesn't really get exhausted.)


Your character is surprised or not surprised based on her individual Perception (usually passive) vs any of your opponents Stealth checks. (In effect their worst Stealth check.) Your party member's Perception scores have jack-all to do with if your character is surprised or not.

This is really a moot point for a barbarian, since Feral Instinct lets them act even when surprised as long as they rage ASAP.


Oh yeah, Intimidating Presence blows, even with CHA investment. No doubt about that.

I'm of the opinion that Intimidating Presence is a non-combat ability. Being frightened gives disadvantage on ability checks as well.

[jas61292]

also, intimidating presence is typically not the most likely to work, either. your charisma modifier on a typical barbarian is likely quite low, and decent wisdom saves aren't that uncommon for monsters (really good ones aren't common, but they're probably rolling against 11 or 12... even a +3 is a better than 50/50 chance to succeed, and it isn't terribly uncommon to have that good of a save for enemies that would be worth trading your entire action with at level 10 or higher).

11 or 12? You proficiency bonus is +4. If you're a berserker, Cha is literally a key ability for a feature of yours. Why are you dumping it? DC 13 should be the minimum, but, honestly I would never play a berserker without good Charisma. I have not gotten to level 10 with my current character yet, but I'm already packing 16 Cha (second only to my Str) in anticipation of this feature. The fact that it augments my social skills (I'm proficient in both intimidation and persuasion) is just a bonus.

[MaxWilson]

also, intimidating presence is typically not the most likely to work, either. your charisma modifier on a typical barbarian is likely quite low, and decent wisdom saves aren't that uncommon for monsters (really good ones aren't common, but they're probably rolling against 11 or 12... even a +3 is a better than 50/50 chance to succeed, and it isn't terribly uncommon to have that good of a save for enemies that would be worth trading your entire action with at level 10 or higher).

so not only is it not impossible to escape, it isn't all that likely to work either. particularly unfortunate, the creature you target is most likely to be a big melee bruiser (fear isn't quite as devastating against a ranged or spell-using enemy). which probably has reach to fight you anyways, most of the time (i mean, really, how many melee type monsters suitable for level 10 party that are worth giving up your action to CC don't have at least 10 foot reach that you're going to be able to use a polearm to prevent them from attacking you at all? more likely, you're trading your action for their action to be less effective... and i suspect there are many monsters that are willing to trade disadvantage on attacks for your barbarian to not get a full round of reckless attacks on them).

so it's probably a trade of your entire regular action for the enemy's action being less effective, but with only a ~50% or lower chance of success, and they can trade their action for most likely 100% chance to break the effect (though at least you probably got your action's worth out of the deal that way, since they likely didn't do much to anyone with their action). not useless, i suppose, particularly since it also keeps an enemy from going past you to hit the artillery. but man, that's a whole lot of ways for the ability to not be terribly effective even in a situation where it would be good...

All of this discussion just highlights why Death Monks are soooo much better than Berserkers at fear. They get their ability sooner (6th level vs 10th); it affects more creatures (everything within 30' range instead of one creature); the DC will be higher (monks have high Wis but barbarians don't have high Cha). It's a bit of a wash that the berserker's target becomes immune for 24 hours on a successful save while the monk's targets gets a fresh save every round.

[Specter]

All of this discussion just highlights why Death Monks are soooo much better than Berserkers at fear. They get their ability sooner (6th level vs 10th); it affects more creatures (everything within 30' range instead of one creature); the DC will be higher (monks have high Wis but barbarians don't have high Cha). It's a bit of a wash that the berserker's target becomes immune for 24 hours on a successful save while the monk's targets gets a fresh save every round.

And it will also affect allies in a 30' radius, don't forget.

[MaxWilson]

And it will also affect allies in a 30' radius, don't forget.

Yes, that's why I wrote "everything".

Death Monks work best in a ranged-heavy party, though you could also leverage paladin auras or the Heroism spell.

[R.Shackleford]

What easy stuff are we talking about here? The easy stuff that normally gives you exhaustion, or the easy stuff that normally knocks you unconscious? :smallamused:

The easy stuff that other people can do without exhausting themselves.

Gaining Extra Attack 1 or 2 (which is what frenzy is depending on your level) while raging shouldn't exhaust you but not exhaust anyone else who uses extra attack 1 or 2 (martial character and fighters).

Why is it when the barbarian gains extra attack at 5 they don't get exhausted when using it outside of rage?

Why doesn't a Paladin get exhausted when using extra attack?

It makes no sense that the Barbarian is punished for something others (and themselves) do already haha.

If I multiclass wizard 15/fighter 5 why doesn't extra attack exhaust my character? I can use my extra attack at-will all day long and not get winded in the slightest. But if I'm raging I get exhausted for attacking 1 extra time per attack? Ugh.

Sorry but no thank you.

[JakOfAllTirades]

One thing I forgot to mention is a Frenzy barb is way, waaaay worse if the DM is at all intelligent and so are the enemies.

If so, drop a Hold Person on the Barb. So long as it lasts 1 round, that's a level of exhaustion in combat.

But more importantly, while dropping Rage sucks for every barb, a Totem barb can at least take the risk of popping it again, especially at higher levels. A Frenzy Barb has to really, really want that bonus attack to make it worthwhile, especially if the DM does it a few times throughout the adventuring day. Because that's now 2 full long rests to get rid of, if no Greater Resto available.

You're not assuming the DM is intelligent; you're assuming the Berserker is abysmally stupid and constantly using Frenzy.

No Berserker with half a brain uses the Frenzy ability every single time he rages. A Berserker has to know when to Rage, when to Frenzy, and when to save both for later. He can Rage until he's completely out of Rages without using Frenzy at all if he doesn't want to Exhaust himself. No Frenzy = No Exhaustion.

[DracoKnight]

Legitimately the ONLY reason that Frenzy is so punishing is because it's got no conditions on your Action to trigger it during your Rage. I am...more than annoyed with the Berserker's design. :smallmad:

https://pokemonhacksforfree.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/frenzy.jpg?w=640

[R.Shackleford]

Legitimately the ONLY reason that Frenzy is so punishing is because it's got no conditions on your Action to trigger it during your Rage. I am...more than annoyed with the Berserker's design. :smallmad:

https://pokemonhacksforfree.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/frenzy.jpg?w=640

What the hell is he smoking?

[DracoKnight]

What the hell is he smoking?

*exasperated shrug* I have no idea! :smallmad:

[wunderkid]

The easy stuff that other people can do without exhausting themselves.

Gaining Extra Attack 1 or 2 (which is what frenzy is depending on your level) while raging shouldn't exhaust you but not exhaust anyone else who uses extra attack 1 or 2 (martial character and fighters).

Why is it when the barbarian gains extra attack at 5 they don't get exhausted when using it outside of rage?

Why doesn't a Paladin get exhausted when using extra attack?

It makes no sense that the Barbarian is punished for something others (and themselves) do already haha.

If I multiclass wizard 15/fighter 5 why doesn't extra attack exhaust my character? I can use my extra attack at-will all day long and not get winded in the slightest. But if I'm raging I get exhausted for attacking 1 extra time per attack? Ugh.

Sorry but no thank you.

This is compounded by the fact that this extra attack actually takes an extra action to use albeit a bonus one.

So not only can the fighter attack more often without exhaustion he can also do that and he can say with a rogue dip sprint. Or use a bonus action spell if an EK. Or any other use of bonus action.

People saying having that attack as a bonus action is a boon are crazy. Having 2 attacks as an action and 1 as a bonus action is not as good as having 3 attacks as an action and a free bonus action.

[R.Shackleford]

*exasperated shrug* I have no idea! :smallmad:

Yet more reasons I'm pretty sure that the people who worked on 5e only worked on specific sections and didn't crossover to other sections.

[RickAllison]

Yes, that's why I wrote "everything".

Death Monks work best in a ranged-heavy party, though you could also leverage paladin auras or the Heroism spell.

If we take the Medusa as an example, it is entirely possible for everyone to avert their eyes from the monk (treating him as invisible to them) to avoid the effect. That means allies can go without any problems, while enemies have the option of giving the monk advantage on his attacks and disadvantage on theirs for the round.

In contrast, the barbarian only has be seen or heard (and see the target), and only when he makes the save the first time. Extending it out does not require that. Basically, the barbarian's effect is less-easily neutralized, but less effective.

[MaxWilson]

If we take the Medusa as an example, it is entirely possible for everyone to avert their eyes from the monk (treating him as invisible to them) to avoid the effect. That means allies can go without any problems, while enemies have the option of giving the monk advantage on his attacks and disadvantage on theirs for the round.

One difficulty with that: the Medusa requires you to avert your eyes at the beginning of your turn. If you try that against a Death Monk, he might just decide to attack you instead of trying to scare you. [Edit: oops, you said that already--that's what you meant by 'option of giving the monk advantage...'. Anyway, good point, and good tactic.]

Nevertheless, I fully approve of this kind of complex interplay, and if you have a table where enemies sometimes avert their eyes from a Death Monk or a Medusa (or a fighter disguised as a Medusa via Disguise Self), I think that will lead to fun play. It's good when the PCs can't just use their go-to strategy on everything.

=========================


Legitimately the ONLY reason that Frenzy is so punishing is because it's got no conditions on your Action to trigger it during your Rage. I am...more than annoyed with the Berserker's design. :smallmad:

https://pokemonhacksforfree.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/frenzy.jpg?w=640

Consider that a license to abolish the exhaustion in exchange for adding a condition "when you take the Attack action". Word of Crawford says that's okay, right?

[RickAllison]

One difficulty with that: the Medusa requires you to avert your eyes at the beginning of your turn. If you try that against a Death Monk, he might just decide to attack you instead of trying to scare you. [Edit: oops, you said that already--that's what you meant by 'option of giving the monk advantage...'. Anyway, good point, and good tactic.]

Nevertheless, I fully approve of this kind of complex interplay, and if you have a table where enemies sometimes avert their eyes from a Death Monk or a Medusa (or a fighter disguised as a Medusa via Disguise Self), I think that will lead to fun play. It's good when the PCs can't just use their go-to strategy on everything.

=========================



Consider that a license to abolish the exhaustion in exchange for adding a condition "when you take the Attack action". Word of Crawford says that's okay, right?

Sounds good with me!!!

[SharkForce]

If we take the Medusa as an example, it is entirely possible for everyone to avert their eyes from the monk (treating him as invisible to them) to avoid the effect. That means allies can go without any problems, while enemies have the option of giving the monk advantage on his attacks and disadvantage on theirs for the round.

In contrast, the barbarian only has be seen or heard (and see the target), and only when he makes the save the first time. Extending it out does not require that. Basically, the barbarian's effect is less-easily neutralized, but less effective.

ending your turn where you have no LOS to the barbarian ends the barbarian fear as well. it isn't that hard to end.

[R.Shackleford]

ending your turn where you have no LOS to the barbarian ends the barbarian fear as well. it isn't that hard to end.

"See, hiding under the covers is a totally legit strategy."

- Some little kid

[JumboWheat01]

So what I'm learning from this is, take your security blanket with you and use it to break Line of Sight. Genius.

[R.Shackleford]

So what I'm learning from this is, take your security blanket with you and use it to break Line of Sight. Genius.

Yup.

Armor: Check
Weapon: Check
Flamtongue of a 1,000 suns: Check
Security Blanket: Check

[MaxWilson]

So what I'm learning from this is, take your security blanket with you and use it to break Line of Sight. Genius.

It also protects you from a number of nasty spells including Counterspell, Disintegrate, and Finger of Death. Also, beholders.

[R.Shackleford]

It also protects you from any number of spells.

You would think that full plate would count too.

[MaxWilson]

You would think that full plate would count too.

No one ever said that 5E makes any sense. :-D

[SharkForce]

So what I'm learning from this is, take your security blanket with you and use it to break Line of Sight. Genius.


Yup.

Armor: Check
Weapon: Check
Flamtongue of a 1,000 suns: Check
Security Blanket: Check

of course not, don't be silly.

you use a towel, which you should never leave home without ;) :P

[JumboWheat01]

I dunno about you, but my blankets are much bigger than my towels. Easier to hide behind.

[R.Shackleford]

I dunno about you, but my blankets are much bigger than my towels. Easier to hide behind.

I just use my sleeping bag, more aerodynamic when I need to run and it won't fly off.

[SharkForce]

I dunno about you, but my blankets are much bigger than my towels. Easier to hide behind.

WOOSH!

( http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Towel )

[JumboWheat01]

WOOSH!

( http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Towel )

One of these days, I'm going to have to read that series. Especially if towels can be thrown around as a joke.

[RickAllison]

One of these days, I'm going to have to read that series. Especially if towels can be thrown around as a joke.

If you go to Barnes & Noble (and I'm sure other stores sell them too), you can pick up the entire book series in one volume for around $20. Pretty nice volumes, too, mine has a black leather (or maybe pseudo-leather) cover with beautiful gold writing and accents for cheap (obviously not real gold, but it looks great!).

[R.Shackleford]

One of these days, I'm going to have to read that series. Especially if towels can be thrown around as a joke.

Really not worth it. Like, the book (s) are ok, but severely over-rated.

Read them if you can get them on the cheap. Not worth shelling out too much for them.

[Tanarii]

This is really a moot point for a barbarian, since Feral Instinct lets them act even when surprised as long as they rage ASAP.Lol yep I really missed that tree of a rule for the forest of poitning out the correct use of the Surprise rules. :smallyuk:


Nevertheless, I fully approve of this kind of complex interplay, and if you have a table where enemies sometimes avert their eyes from a Death Monk or a Medusa (or a fighter disguised as a Medusa via Disguise Self), I think that will lead to fun play. It's good when the PCs can't just use their go-to strategy on everything.Interestingly, I think allowing "avert your eyes" at all to be pointless. As far as I am concerned that's already covered by allowing a saving throw against gaze-type attacks in the first place.


Consider that a license to abolish the exhaustion in exchange for adding a condition "when you take the Attack action". Word of Crawford says that's okay, right?Agreed. Although I still think a limit of something less than all of your Rages / day is called for.

[MaxWilson]

Interestingly, I think allowing "avert your eyes" at all to be pointless. As far as I am concerned that's already covered by allowing a saving throw against gaze-type attacks in the first place.

Why would high Constitution make you better at averting your eyes? If that's what the saving throw represented, you'd expect it to be a Wisdom save or something.

[Specter]

Since this thread is basically over, here's what I think after all's been said and done:

- Frenzy's not bad, but exhaustion can be. It seems like a pointless distinction, but as far as I've seen on table, a player always has to decide according to the situation, and neither decision is terribly bad. At the end of a day, definitely go crazy.
- Frenzy is generally worse than the Totem lvl3 abilities (generally because if few encounters per day are run it's on par), but it makes up for that with Mindless Rage, a lvl6 ability that far outshines any other Barb ability at that level.
- Intimidating Presence at lvl10 is meh, but I'm not a fan of Commune With Nature either. It could be easily replaced by canceling the exhaustion on Frenzy (which is the only change I'd make to the Berserker).
- Retaliation is just too good. If you pair it with Sentinel, then you're attacking no matter who is targeted on the frontlines.
- Totem abilities are better for versatility and teamwork (especially Wolf's), but Berserker turns you into the ultimate 1-on-1 front-line combatant, with 4 attacks against someone who's focused on you. As I've stated, a lvl14 Berserker would have a much easier time against a lvl20 Fighter than a Totem guy (but I'm not sure who would win, so don't rage on me).

Exhaustion can wait for you to kill that death knight plotting to end the world.

[R.Shackleford]

Why would high Constitution make you better at averting your eyes? If that's what the saving throw represented, you'd expect it to be a Wisdom save or something.

Healthier body = stronger eye muscles = faster eye movement.

Actually, I never understood why Perception isn't Wis or Con.

[JumboWheat01]

Healthier body = stronger eye muscles = faster eye movement.

Actually, I never understood why Perception isn't Wis or Con.

Perception is more about awareness rather than just your eyes. You don't get stronger inner ear or nose hairs, do you?

[R.Shackleford]

Perception is more about awareness rather than just your eyes. You don't get stronger inner ear or nose hairs, do you?

Ask Bobo-bobo-bo-bobo (or whatever the hell his name is).

http://i.imgur.com/aG6LPxX.jpg

Without a healthy set of eyes all the wisdom in the world won't allow you to see a creature.

[JumboWheat01]

... I'm not entirely sure what to say to that counter-argument. I'm both impressed and horrified at the same time.

[Tanarii]

Why would high Constitution make you better at averting your eyes? If that's what the saving throw represented, you'd expect it to be a Wisdom save or something.I'm not sure what save would be most appropriate for breaking gaze. Wis sounds good to me. But whatevas, the point being that it's exactly the kind of thing that saves are there to represent in the first place. Do you give a Fighter an automatic save vs a fireball if he says "I hunker down behind my shield"? (Without having the Shield Master feat.)

[RickAllison]

Ask Bobo-bobo-bo-bobo (or whatever the hell his name is).

http://i.imgur.com/aG6LPxX.jpg

Without a healthy set of eyes all the wisdom in the world won't allow you to see a creature.

My college roommate showed me that show. It was slightly disturbing...

[R.Shackleford]

... I'm not entirely sure what to say to that counter-argument. I'm both impressed and horrified at the same time.

As soon as you said nose hair I was all like "I'm gonna blow this dude's mind" :p
One of the best Mangas ever... Never watched the anime.


My college roommate showed me that show. It was slightly disturbing...

Disturbing but still fantastic :D

[RickAllison]

I'm not sure what save would be most appropriate for breaking gaze. Wis sounds good to me. But whatevas, the point being that it's exactly the kind of thing that saves are there to represent in the first place. Do you give a Fighter an automatic save vs a fireball if he says "I hunker down behind my shield"? (Without having the Shield Master feat.)

The point of it as shown in the medusa statblock is that it is a preemptive measure that has harsh downsides. Heck, Fireball may not be auto-saved due to hunkering behind a shield (it goes around corners), but giving up your action to jump in a hole and plug it with the shield seems like a cinematic and awesome way to introduce variety into a combat. Heck, doing that exact thing is a rather common response to explosions in other fictional accounts.

Basically, preemptive countermeasures make sense for a variety of spells. Any direct-effect spells are countered by putting bulk in between the target and caster (Readied movement to dive behind an object when the faster starts waving his focus or components around).

Basically, you have a good point in the opposite direction of your intentions. Finding creative ways to resist various effects should be a prominent part of every table. It keeps the game much more interesting than "I cast a spell", "I use this class ability", "I attack". Instead, you get players actively paying attention to improvise actions.

[Tanarii]

But "not looking" is an entirely different ballpark from jumping in a hole and blocking it with your shield. It's far more on par with trying to duck behind your shield. For starters, because not peeking is about as easy as not thinking about pink elephants.

Now if a player told me he was binding his eyes so he couldn't see at all, I'd accept that as feasible. He's intentionally rendering himself blind in a way he can't easily accidentally open his eyes. No problem there.

[RickAllison]

But "not looking" is an entirely different ballpark from jumping in a hole and blocking it with your shield. It's far more on par with trying to duck behind your shield. For starters, because not peeking is about as easy as not thinking about pink elephants.

Now if a player told me he was binding his eyes so he couldn't see at all, I'd accept that as feasible. He's intentionally rendering himself blind in a way he can't easily accidentally open his eyes. No problem there.

Not taking a peek may be one thing when you are faced with an unknown danger. We see this in Clash of the Titans, where at least one person just had to take a peek because he didn't quite believe the danger. Fortunately, being petrified meant that the rest learned that not peeking is much less difficult when one's life is on the line.

Remember that thinking of pink elephants is a mental reflex that has no way to physically combat it. Averting one's eyes does (though I might ask for Wisdom checks (not saves) with an easy DC if they are triggered in some way (grappling the target, getting knocked flat, etc.)).

[Vogonjeltz]

Really not worth it. Like, the book (s) are ok, but severely over-rated.

Read them if you can get them on the cheap. Not worth shelling out too much for them.

There's also always the BBC radio version, albeit that contains major differences from the books.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure what save would be most appropriate for breaking gaze. Wis sounds good to me. But whatevas, the point being that it's exactly the kind of thing that saves are there to represent in the first place. Do you give a Fighter an automatic save vs a fireball if he says "I hunker down behind my shield"? (Without having the Shield Master feat.)

Saving throws are one of the most ill-defined parts of 5E--it's always totally unclear what they represent. How is a Con save different than a Con check? What's a Charisma save doing to protect you from Banishment? When a fighter is caught out in the open by a Lightning Bolt, why doesn't making a Dex save cause him to move at all (doesn't even drop prone or anything) and what is the Dex save actually DOING?

To answer your question: a shield isn't big enough to protect you from a Fireball, and by the time it goes off it's too late anyway, but if you had a tower shield (treat as total cover) I would, yes, let him take zero damage from a Fireball, because that's how total cover works in 5E. So that might not be the best example to illustrate your point.

Edit: BTW, the old-school way to do it would be to let player characters avert their eyes (taking penalties as usual), but if they look at the Medusa, they turn to stone. No save. I like that way a lot better than saying that players for some reason can't avert their eyes.

Also, if you avert your eyes, as far as I'm concerned your eyes are averted from everything in that general direction as well. It's not just the Medusa who gets advantage, it's all of her pet snakes and goblins too.

=======================


Basically, you have a good point in the opposite direction of your intentions. Finding creative ways to resist various effects should be a prominent part of every table. It keeps the game much more interesting than "I cast a spell", "I use this class ability", "I attack". Instead, you get players actively paying attention to improvise actions.

Yes, good point. I would enjoy this kind of game.

[Tanarii]

Saving throws are one of the most ill-defined parts of 5E--it's always totally unclear what they represent. How is a Con save different than a Con check? What's a Charisma save doing to protect you from Banishment? When a fighter is caught out in the open by a Lightning Bolt, why doesn't making a Dex save cause him to move at all (doesn't even drop prone or anything) and what is the Dex save actually DOING?The difference, as far as I can tell, is supposed to be pro-active vs reflexively defensive actions. Yes, I know that's kind of a useless answer that doesn't really address your point, nor is it even consistently followed by the 5e rules. :smallwink:


To answer your question: a shield isn't big enough to protect you from a Fireball, and by the time it goes off it's too late anyway, but if you had a tower shield (treat as total cover) I would, yes, let him take zero damage from a Fireball, because that's how total cover works in 5E. So that might not be the best example to illustrate your point.Yes, I would allow it for a shield big enough to be cover too. That was exactly my point, which is ...


Edit: BTW, the old-school way to do it would be to let player characters avert their eyes (taking penalties as usual), but if they look at the Medusa, they turn to stone. No save. I like that way a lot better than saying that players for some reason can't avert their eyes.They can close their eyes. They make a save. To me, the save is the abstract resolution mechanic for trying to close your eyes and keep them closed in a life or death situation. Or you can bind them or cast darkness to ensure you can't see.

Edit: fixed quotes

[RickAllison]

The difference, as far as I can tell, is supposed to be pro-active vs reflexively defensive actions. Yes, I know that's kind of a useless answer that doesn't really address your point, nor is it even consistently followed by the 5e rules. :smallwink:

Yes, I would allow it for a shield big enough to be cover too. That was exactly my point, which is ...

Edit: BTW, the old-school way to do it would be to let player characters avert their eyes (taking penalties as usual), but if they look at the Medusa, they turn to stone. No save. I like that way a lot better than saying that players for some reason can't avert their eyes.They can close their eyes. They make a save. To me, the save is the abstract resolution mechanic for trying to close your eyes and keep them closed in a life or death situation. Or you can bind them or cast darkness to ensure you can't see.[/QUOTE]

I see the Wisdom save as reading and anticipating the medusa's actions (similar to the Insight skill) so you can predict adjust your view accordingly while keeping her in your sights for the sake of fighting without penalty. Wise combatants can keep focused and predictive even when just a flick of the eyes up or a misreading of her movement could petrify you. By contrast, averting one's eyes is akin to stating that the person doesn't trust their capabilities and so have to keep their eyes further averted to ensure no gaze happens.

A more realistic ruling is that the person has to treat the cone to the medusa (or other creature) as unseen. You must give a wide berth of vision to ensure a which Dash from the snake-woman doesn't petrify you.

[MaxWilson]

A more realistic ruling is that the person has to treat the cone to the medusa (or other creature) as unseen. You must give a wide berth of vision to ensure a which Dash from the snake-woman doesn't petrify you.

You know, this is a really good point. You shouldn't be able to avert your eyes from a creature so much as an approach vector. If you want to be 100% safe from the Medusa, you have to close your eyes completely.

Or back off to more than 30'. It's absurd how close-ranged Medusa gaze is. I should make a Medusa variant whose gaze is effective out to any range... it wouldn't even change the CR.

[R.Shackleford]

You know, this is a really good point. You shouldn't be able to avert your eyes from a creature so much as an approach vector. If you want to be 100% safe from the Medusa, you have to close your eyes completely.

Or back off to more than 30'. It's absurd how close-ranged Medusa gaze is. I should make a Medusa variant whose gaze is effective out to any range... it wouldn't even change the CR.

I prefer a medium range "Weeping Angels" type Medusa where her gaze slowly turns you to stone due to your eyes taking the image of her. The longer you take the image of her the more/faster you turn to stone.

[RickAllison]

You know, this is a really good point. You shouldn't be able to avert your eyes from a creature so much as an approach vector. If you want to be 100% safe from the Medusa, you have to close your eyes completely.

Or back off to more than 30'. It's absurd how close-ranged Medusa gaze is. I should make a Medusa variant whose gaze is effective out to any range... it wouldn't even change the CR.

See, now I want to make an encounter that pairs the medusa (or medusae...) with giant constrictor snake or something like yuan-ti with Athletics expertise who love to grab PCs to put them in the face of a medusa. Seems just delightful...

[MaxWilson]

See, now I want to make an encounter that pairs the medusa (or medusae...) with giant constrictor snake or something like yuan-ti with Athletics expertise who love to grab PCs to put them in the face of a medusa. Seems just delightful...

If you're already grappled and restrained by a giant constrictor snake, there's no down side to closing your eyes.

[RickAllison]

If you're already grappled and restrained by a giant constrictor snake, there's no down side to closing your eyes.

I was figuring that (especially for the yuan-ti) the eyes would then be forced in an ability contest. Basically, the yuan-ti would be offering the medusa's enemies up to her to create her "artwork".