A better format for campaign setting locations?

[Yora]

Campaign settings that are released in the Dungeons & Dragons format usually have a big chapter on geography in which ten or so major or interesting locations within a region are described with one or two brief paragraphs each. I find this format completely useless. Usually they are just a short teaser that mentions a few facts about the locations that players could learn from asking nearby locals. But that is player content. It really only raises questions that might be worth investigating for PCs, but does absolutely nothing for the GM who has to come up with reasons why that location would make an appearance in the campaign.

Inspiring the GM is a great idea, but settings using this format usually tend to have prominent metaplots which really makes it very difficult for GMs to create their own content that does not contradict what might be written about a location in another book or will be described in more detail in an upcoming new release. In the end it's much easier to just take an idea you have from reading the description and then creating a completely new location with that idea.

I've been working on a campaign setting for some years but recently decided to abandon the format of Forgotten Realms and Eberron. It would be impossible for a single nobody to compete in that niche and I also don't like that format myself either. Instead I want to take a different approach that I find much more useful as a GM and that encourages just picking single elements and adapting them instead of buying the whole package as a single thing.

My idea is to give about half a page of text to each ruin, cave, castle, or village that serves as a brief but comprehensive summary of a possible adventure. There won't be any map, no list of enemies, or stats for NPCs and also no plot. These things are left to GMs to make themselves, based on the system they are playing with, the strength of the party, and the types of creatures that exist in their campaign.
Basically insted of saying "This is the tower of an old sorcerer who nobody has ever seen and nobody knows what's inside, but there are strange lights during nights of a new moon and hobgoblins patrol the area that are believed to work for the sorcerer", the description would say who the major NPCs connected to the place are and what goals they have, and what the major interesting features are that the players can discover, and what is currently going on inside. It's then the job of the GM to decide how the PCs will be drawn to the place and what how their relationship with the locals might be.

What kind of information do you think would really be helpful to GMs to make their own dungeons and adentures from such location descriptions?

[Amphetryon]

Campaign settings that are released in the Dungeons & Dragons format usually have a big chapter on geography in which ten or so major or interesting locations within a region are described with one or two brief paragraphs each. I find this format completely useless. Usually they are just a short teaser that mentions a few facts about the locations that players could learn from asking nearby locals. But that is player content. It really only raises questions that might be worth investigating for PCs, but does absolutely nothing for the GM who has to come up with reasons why that location would make an appearance in the campaign.

Inspiring the GM is a great idea, but settings using this format usually tend to have prominent metaplots which really makes it very difficult for GMs to create their own content that does not contradict what might be written about a location in another book or will be described in more detail in an upcoming new release. In the end it's much easier to just take an idea you have from reading the description and then creating a completely new location with that idea.

I've been working on a campaign setting for some years but recently decided to abandon the format of Forgotten Realms and Eberron. It would be impossible for a single nobody to compete in that niche and I also don't like that format myself either. Instead I want to take a different approach that I find much more useful as a GM and that encourages just picking single elements and adapting them instead of buying the whole package as a single thing.

My idea is to give about half a page of text to each ruin, cave, castle, or village that serves as a brief but comprehensive summary of a possible adventure. There won't be any map, no list of enemies, or stats for NPCs and also no plot. These things are left to GMs to make themselves, based on the system they are playing with, the strength of the party, and the types of creatures that exist in their campaign.
Basically insted of saying "This is the tower of an old sorcerer who nobody has ever seen and nobody knows what's inside, but there are strange lights during nights of a new moon and hobgoblins patrol the area that are believed to work for the sorcerer", the description would say who the major NPCs connected to the place are and what goals they have, and what the major interesting features are that the players can discover, and what is currently going on inside. It's then the job of the GM to decide how the PCs will be drawn to the place and what how their relationship with the locals might be.

What kind of information do you think would really be helpful to GMs to make their own dungeons and adentures from such location descriptions?
I am confused. How is your proposal avoiding a listing of enemies, while still listing major NPCs? How is your proposal providing no plot, while still detailing the goals of those NPCs and the details of what's going on within a given locale? For that matter, how does your proposal avoid the issue of future publications providing a different spin on how things turned out at a given location, compared to how they turned out for a given gaming group's play experience?

[PersonMan]

I am confused. How is your proposal avoiding a listing of enemies, while still listing major NPCs? How is your proposal providing no plot, while still detailing the goals of those NPCs and the details of what's going on within a given locale? For that matter, how does your proposal avoid the issue of future publications providing a different spin on how things turned out at a given location, compared to how they turned out for a given gaming group's play experience?

I think it's meant to be something like: "the local mayor, the hobgoblin leader, the sorcerer, the kidnapped child's parents instead of 4xhobgoblin warrior 1, 3xhobgoblin ranger 2, 1xhobgoblin captain, 2xstone golem...".

The idea I got was that, since the insides of the mysterious tower are described, they don't get changed by future metaplot stuff - the returned sorcerer won't suddenly be an epic level mage from the age of heroes instead of a simple level 7 elf dude.

[Amphetryon]

I think it's meant to be something like: "the local mayor, the hobgoblin leader, the sorcerer, the kidnapped child's parents instead of 4xhobgoblin warrior 1, 3xhobgoblin ranger 2, 1xhobgoblin captain, 2xstone golem...".

The idea I got was that, since the insides of the mysterious tower are described, they don't get changed by future metaplot stuff - the returned sorcerer won't suddenly be an epic level mage from the age of heroes instead of a simple level 7 elf dude.

Except, they will get changed, because books that are based off of particular plot elements* like the contents of the mysterious tower are going to be impacted by how the author thinks those contents will or won't be removed from the tower in the future, compared to how those contents were dealt with by a particular party that encountered them.

*I recognize that by calling them 'plot elements' I am running afoul of one of Yora's stated design intents of providing "no plot." I could reference them in some other way, I suppose, but changing the synonym won't fix this issue.

[Max_Killjoy]

Campaign settings that are released in the Dungeons & Dragons format usually have a big chapter on geography in which ten or so major or interesting locations within a region are described with one or two brief paragraphs each. I find this format completely useless. Usually they are just a short teaser that mentions a few facts about the locations that players could learn from asking nearby locals. But that is player content. It really only raises questions that might be worth investigating for PCs, but does absolutely nothing for the GM who has to come up with reasons why that location would make an appearance in the campaign.

Inspiring the GM is a great idea, but settings using this format usually tend to have prominent metaplots which really makes it very difficult for GMs to create their own content that does not contradict what might be written about a location in another book or will be described in more detail in an upcoming new release. In the end it's much easier to just take an idea you have from reading the description and then creating a completely new location with that idea.

I've been working on a campaign setting for some years but recently decided to abandon the format of Forgotten Realms and Eberron. It would be impossible for a single nobody to compete in that niche and I also don't like that format myself either. Instead I want to take a different approach that I find much more useful as a GM and that encourages just picking single elements and adapting them instead of buying the whole package as a single thing.

My idea is to give about half a page of text to each ruin, cave, castle, or village that serves as a brief but comprehensive summary of a possible adventure. There won't be any map, no list of enemies, or stats for NPCs and also no plot. These things are left to GMs to make themselves, based on the system they are playing with, the strength of the party, and the types of creatures that exist in their campaign.

Basically insted of saying "This is the tower of an old sorcerer who nobody has ever seen and nobody knows what's inside, but there are strange lights during nights of a new moon and hobgoblins patrol the area that are believed to work for the sorcerer", the description would say who the major NPCs connected to the place are and what goals they have, and what the major interesting features are that the players can discover, and what is currently going on inside. It's then the job of the GM to decide how the PCs will be drawn to the place and what how their relationship with the locals might be.

What kind of information do you think would really be helpful to GMs to make their own dungeons and adentures from such location descriptions?


First of all, in my opinion, ditch published metaplot. It's good for absolutely nothing beyond basic inspiration. Explicitly tell players that whatever they've read in sourcebooks and updates can be forgotten -- NPC stats, goals, and even identities, events, organizations, etc -- they shouldn't count on any of it being true or as-published in your campaign. Published metaplot and the resultant player expectations are nothing more than a straightjacket.

Second, I'd like to see more about the world and its people and places, and less "here's some stuff you can fight" in published settings. Artwork, maps, how people make their living, their customs and beliefs, how their families and so on are organized, the sorts of conflicts that arise from all that, etc. The setting material needs to help me, the GM, bring the setting to life for the players.

Third, the material should provide seeds from which to grow your own plot, and the framework for it to grow on. As a GM, I want the tidbits and nuggets to be for plot and story and conflict, not for the setting. I want rich setting, not prebuilt plots.

[Darth Ultron]

What kind of information do you think would really be helpful to GMs to make their own dungeons and adentures from such location descriptions?

The basic problem is to do what your talking about is that you would need to give no information. You can't ''help'' because any ''help'' is ''absolutely forcing any poor DM to use what you wrote down'' . So don't have a setting at all. Just have a ''place with interesting and cool stuff'', that the DM has to make up every single detail of.

In reality, a campaign book will always have short geography sections....that is reality. It's the limit of space. And no matter what is in the section, you or someone won't be happy. Something will always be wrong.

And how do provide a description with no details? Are you just going to say ''oh, the cool ruins are so coll, but, um nobody knows what they are ruins of..ask your DM!'' Talk about any amazing waste of space. You could say ''um there are enemies...maybe..somewhere..." and again, wow, look how useful that is.

And really how is your approach ''so different'' then the normal way. I open the book and it says ''the tower of Dargolth is a strange fell place that many think is haunted and none have ever entered and returned from.'' And that is it. So, I make up Dargolth all by myself...as a dream lich. He tried to become a lich years ago and failed, and is now just an undead dream. So I make the lich and some undead ans some encounters. Then I make a town and a mayor to hire the PC's and I have an adventure ready for Friday. So, how is your ''um, there is a tower, with, um something, in it, make it all up on your own DM'' way so different?

[Thrudd]

What I would like in a setting book would be the maps and suggestions for what people and things to populate the map with. Each region should describe any unique culture or religion found there, some thought into how the economy and organization of settlements might work, and have tables for random encounters and wandering monsters. No plot, no specific characters, very little history, if any.

Supplemental but separate from the campaign setting book, I would want adventure modules that include more details. For instance, descriptions of a specific town, NPCs and their motives, detailed maps of an adventure location like the wizard's tower or the caves of chaos or the lost city of lizardmen or whatever, populated with monsters and traps and treasure, more random encounter tables, everything you need to actually play the game.

Maybe the setting book could include an adventure module as well, to give a DM a place to start if they want.

The setting guide should be about saving the GM time by giving them the things that would be most time consuming: drawing maps, creating tables, world building that is consistent and coherent. The adventure modules should be giving the GM a basically complete adventure that requires little to no prep (other than reading and familiarizing with the module) in order to run a game. The only thing that shouldn't and can't really be published ahead of time is how your specific PC's will be connected to the world and what leads them to go on these adventures and if there is any overarching storyline connecting their adventures (including NPC's or powerful monsters you might create to act as recurring antagonists, though you might borrow those from a module, too).

[nrg89]

My idea is to give about half a page of text to each ruin, cave, castle, or village that serves as a brief but comprehensive summary of a possible adventure. There won't be any map, no list of enemies, or stats for NPCs and also no plot. These things are left to GMs to make themselves, based on the system they are playing with, the strength of the party, and the types of creatures that exist in their campaign.
Basically insted of saying "This is the tower of an old sorcerer who nobody has ever seen and nobody knows what's inside, but there are strange lights during nights of a new moon and hobgoblins patrol the area that are believed to work for the sorcerer", the description would say who the major NPCs connected to the place are and what goals they have, and what the major interesting features are that the players can discover, and what is currently going on inside. It's then the job of the GM to decide how the PCs will be drawn to the place and what how their relationship with the locals might be. I think you should look into Savage Worlds settings for inspiration. The Foes of Solomon Kane is one of the coolest books I've ever read, it presents the foes with a 3-5 page adventure for each one meaning that the GM gets an example of where this foe could be found, who the victims usually are, what the mood of those types of adventures are (it's usually horror) and what it's motivations are.
The Path of Kane is also a list of adventures but linked to regions instead. If South America and Sub-Saharan Africa is mostly jungle, what types of adventures would be played out in one but not the other area? They have more detail than what you're suggesting though.
Anyway, most settings developed by Pinnacle Entertainment flesh it out mostly through adventure and character examples instead of history or region descriptions in the spirit of pulp. Just a suggestion.


What kind of information do you think would really be helpful to GMs to make their own dungeons and adventures from such location descriptions?

Is this for publication? Because GM's in Japan, Brazil, Australia and Ireland won't all understand a list of names, they will need descriptions. I think what you need to deliver is the conflict, who's fighting here? Do they need help? This is the void the PCs will fill and that's what you need to describe. Maybe;

"On the High Sea the slave trading Shrikes are spreading fear in the fishing villages. Attacks can happen multiple times a year for some unfortunate people. Some villages risk everything by migrating to another, but that's not without contention from the destination, not to mention that it's a dangerous trip. The riches in the High Sea however has attracted attention from other pirates who want to break this monopoly that the Shrikes have."

Now you have three conflicts that need a good sword arm; pirate vs. village, village vs. village and pirate vs. pirate.