View Full Version : Erfworld Thread VIII: VIIInnie, VIIIdi, VIIIci
TheWombatOfDoom
2016-07-19, 08:23 AM
Erfworld (www.erfworld.com) is an online comic about a table top gamer named Parson Gotti that is summoned from our world to the world of Erf, a world based on its own rules that function similarly to a table top game. This makes Parson a valuable player in a game that may very well threaten his life. Does he want to go back to his own world at all, or is this world the perfect place for a gamer such as himself? Is he really dreaming? Will he be there forever? Who knows! What we DO know is that in this world, the pieces are living things, and the stakes cannot be higher. Join Parson on this wild ride filled with real world (or to the Erfworlders - Stupid World) references and puns, gaming homages and glory, fate and chance.
Previous incarnations:
GitP: Erfworld Forum section (Locked) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
Erfworld thread I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178724)
Erfworld thread II: Finally thinking with portals, over a year later (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268156)
Erfworld thread III: As the Erf Turns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313967)
Erfworld thread IV: In Memory of King Saline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374757-Erfworld-thread-IV-In-memory-of-King-Saline)
Erfworld thread V: Baddie Will Not Post In Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416285-Erfworld-thread-V-Baddie-Will-Not-Post-In-Thread)
Erfworld Thread VI: +10 vs Fat Guys From Ohio (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?461437-Erfworld-Thread-VI-10-vs-Fat-Guys-From-Ohio)
Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480954-Erfworld-Thread-VII-No-Consensus-Left-Unsealed)
Currently we are on page 178 of Book 3.
Also, please SPOILER your comments for the first three posts about an update that has occurred.
New text update...
and it seems I was not so wrong, after all... :smallamused:
I'd hold my horses. Parson knows some aspect of that story are wrong. Charlie didn't exactly steal the Arkentool and come down to Erf in so much as existed (or fell) killed previous owners and took it from them. I wonder why he skipped that little detail :smalltongue: Oh, right, most of their forces are Uncroaked. Plus there is the whole oath to Thinkamancers preventing him from telling the whole truth.
Parson may suspect that Charlie is an Stupidworlder that came to Erf, but then he'd refer to himself as Titan.
MReav
2016-07-19, 08:29 AM
Huzzah! My choice finally panned out.
Huzzah! My choice finally panned out.
Mine as well. I wanted this as far as thread V (V is for Vinnie).
Chromascope3D
2016-07-19, 09:32 AM
Boy, I can't wait until a few years down the line when Rob replaces all the text updates with comic pages and republishes it as "Erfworld Kai."
What? A guy can dream, can't he? :P
Killer Angel
2016-07-19, 12:33 PM
I'd hold my horses. Parson knows some aspect of that story are wrong. Charlie didn't exactly steal the Arkentool and come down to Erf in so much as existed (or fell) killed previous owners and took it from them. I wonder why he skipped that little detail :smalltongue: Oh, right, most of their forces are Uncroaked.
I 'm aware of that.:smallwink:
Imo Parson thought about it and knows the theory it's far from perfect, but it got sufficient elements to be believable and to be sold to TV.
I'm just happy that my hypothesis about the fallen Angel was "right ", in the sense that was the one developed by Parson.
Looks like Bunny will be the crucial piece here. She seems aware that Parson isn't telling the truth, but can't act because of the spells on her.
Do we see a self-fulfilling prophecy at work? TV switches sides and Jillian attacks them for this?
stsasser
2016-07-19, 10:29 PM
When Albert croaks Vinnie in two weeks, this will become Doombat's Memorial Thread.
ryuplaneswalker
2016-07-19, 10:34 PM
When Albert croaks Vinnie in two weeks, this will become Doombat's Memorial Thread.
I don't know. Albert says he would probably enjoy it at TV more than FAQ.
turbo164
2016-07-20, 08:03 AM
Boy, I can't wait until a few years down the line when Rob replaces all the text updates with comic pages and republishes it as "Erfworld Kai."
What? A guy can dream, can't he? :P
Charlie: "FOOLS! This isn't even my final form!"
Charlie: "FOOLS! This isn't even my final form!"
Parson used Spirit Bomb.
*Waits for three hundred pages.*
Xihirli
2016-07-20, 08:00 PM
It's super effecti-
Not dead. Kthxdie.
It's super effecti-
Not dead. Kthxdie.
I'll give you pizza. No, wait. Two pizzas.
Anteros
2016-07-21, 02:16 AM
Wait, the Vinnie thread title finally won? What madness is this?
DataNinja
2016-07-21, 02:28 AM
Wait, the Vinnie thread title finally won? What madness is this?
The type caused by us being about to lose spelling opportunities. :smallbiggrin:
Wait, the Vinnie thread title finally won? What madness is this?
This! Is! Erfoworld!
DigoDragon
2016-07-21, 06:59 AM
I don't know. Albert says he would probably enjoy it at TV more than FAQ.
Assuming he's not playing Vinnie.
Charlie: "FOOLS! This isn't even my final form!"
Parson used Spirit Bomb.
*Waits for three hundred pages.*
It's super effecti-
Not dead. Kthxdie.
I'll give you pizza. No, wait. Two pizzas.
And here I just finished marathoning 50 episodes of DBZ Abridged... welp. Not gonna see Erfworld the same way again. :smallbiggrin:
Anteros
2016-07-21, 07:55 PM
An abridged series would be funny. Unfortunately I think it would only be like 10 comics long.
HalfTangible
2016-07-21, 08:07 PM
An abridged series would be funny. Unfortunately I think it would only be like 10 comics long.
What makes you say that? A lot of stuff happens in this story.
Anteros
2016-07-21, 08:51 PM
I was just making a tongue in cheek comment about all the filler. An abridged series wouldn't sit in front of a portal for 120 comics or however many we're currently up to.
HalfTangible
2016-07-21, 08:56 PM
I was just making a tongue in cheek comment about all the filler. An abridged series wouldn't sit in front of a portal for 120 comics or however many we're currently up to.
Sure it would, that's the easy part. It'd just make Parson ridiculously pissed about how long it was taking.
"I'VE BEEN STANDING HERE FOR LIKE A YEAR DAMMIT"
"Lord, it's been 6 minutes."
"SHUT IT I'M GOING THROUGH"
The hard part about abridging Erfworld is the fact that the comic's premise is built so heavily on the surreal never-ending barrage of puns and in-jokes, which cuts out half of what makes Abridged series work in the first place.
Anteros
2016-07-21, 10:06 PM
I wouldn't actually try to abridge a comic anyway. I was just making a joke about all the filler in Erfworld.
Anteros
2016-07-22, 09:17 PM
So, new update. Mostly just thinkomancy technobabble, but it might be setting up for something to happen in another comic. Eventually. :smallsigh:
So, new update. Mostly just thinkomancy technobabble, but it might be setting up for something to happen in another comic. Eventually. :smallsigh:
Any second now....
It does foreshadows that Chatlie will attack. TV wants to give Hamster, and Maggie just had a juice boost.
I'm unsure what starts this Foxtrot. Charlie via Wanna or Jill.
HandofShadows
2016-07-23, 06:40 AM
I wonder how many people missed the text under the last picture.
-"Makuahine," said the tower of Spacerock.- Yeah, Maggie is talking to Jed in her sleep.
I wonder how many people missed the text under the last picture.
-"Makuahine," said the tower of Spacerock.- Yeah, Maggie is talking to Jed in her sleep.
-"Makuahine," means something like mother or very close female relative
guttering flame
2016-07-23, 08:01 AM
Thoughts on New Page:
Can Jed be made String independent? I don't want him to become a dumb object if his three creators croaked.
Does this mean the Titans are still alive out there somewhere and if they die all the characters in Erfworld will lose their consciousness?
If Maggie and Jed can contact each other through these umbilical strings between them maybe Maggie could find the strings connecting her to the Titans!
DigoDragon
2016-07-23, 09:56 AM
I wonder how many people missed the text under the last picture.
-"Makuahine," said the tower of Spacerock.- Yeah, Maggie is talking to Jed in her sleep.
I noticed it by accident. Thought it was the artist signature, but nope. XD
Okay update. Could do without the thread technobable and focus on the conversation Maggie had with Bunny. That was the more interesting part to me.
eschmenk
2016-07-23, 11:23 AM
Next comic:
"What, you have to be commanded to call me? You can't just call your own mother on your own? I guess you were just too busy chatting up bikini-wearing Archons to think of your poor mother locked up in a dungeon! Is that the sort of son I made?"
(And Jed had two fathers. I don't know what I want to say about that.)
Anteros
2016-07-23, 05:34 PM
Nah, we're due for a perspective change. We've had comics with Maggie in them twice in a row! That's twice as long as a normal viewpoint these days.
Thalnawr
2016-07-25, 11:52 AM
New Update
A perspective change, but importantly, not a location change.
eschmenk
2016-07-25, 11:58 AM
New Update
A perspective change, but importantly, not a location change.
It looks like at least a short-distance location change to me. I assume they are going to Maggie's cell. :smallconfused:
Leewei
2016-07-25, 02:23 PM
Maggie has juice now, and so can link with Jack, who can repatriate himself, and the cloak himself as a prisoner. Doing the same to others is risky. I imagine the cloaking would need to be periodically renewed, which Jack would need to do from nearby.
Doller Bill is also imprisoned nearby. It seems very likely that Bill will become entangled in this, especially since its his creation leading Parson and Jack around.
eschmenk
2016-07-25, 02:48 PM
Maggie has juice now, and so can link with Jack, who can repatriate himself, and the cloak himself as a prisoner. Doing the same to others is risky. I imagine the cloaking would need to be periodically renewed, which Jack would need to do from nearby.
Doller Bill is also imprisoned nearby. It seems very likely that Bill will become entangled in this, especially since its his creation leading Parson and Jack around.
How could Jack repatriate himself? He would need to stack with a non-prisoner GK unit somehow, as far as we know. I doubt that whatever is going on with Maggie or the doll would count.
Leewei
2016-07-25, 05:12 PM
Keeping this spoilered:
Lilith's escape implies that there are ways to achieve this end using a link up while not stacking with other units, at least not units in the same region. I'm wondering if Maggie has already repatriated - but guessing she hasn't. Normally, an escape would immediately cause an immediate uproar.
eschmenk
2016-07-25, 06:09 PM
Keeping this spoilered:
Lilith's escape implies that there are ways to achieve this end using a link up while not stacking with other units, at least not units in the same region. I'm wondering if Maggie has already repatriated - but guessing she hasn't. Normally, an escape would immediately cause an immediate uproar.
Well, if they did, it would go a long way toward clearing Parson, Jack and Wanda of charges related toward Parson going into CC's portal. The casters assume that Parson did that in order to repatriate Lilith and started the battle in the MK that way. By demonstrating the ability to self-repatriate in TV, Maggie could prove that Parson didn't really need to do that. That's about the only argument I can think of in favor of that, though. Even with the doll's help, I don't think they would have a realistic chance of getting away. I don't think they would dare to try to escape through the MK even with Jack's cloaking. Would it be worth it to repatriate Jack, yet remain in the dungeon?
I think Maggie is still asleep in her cell. When they Wanda and Maggie freed Lilith, both of them were in Lilith's mindscape thanks to the arkenpliers. Normally Maggie couldn't do that, even in a link. Maybe dream Maggie has learned more about how minds work and could do that now, but that's a big if. Awake Maggie doesn't remember much of what dream Maggie learned, but maybe she can use the juice from Jed to sort that out so she can remember while awake?
A couple of other miscellaneous thoughts.
I don't think that either Parson nor Caesar know that the guns TV would create wouldn't have the auto-archery special. They would be much less useful than they would expect, unless Bill could use his limited knowledge of thinkamancy to give them that ability.
If Parson could get TV to give several thousand bats to GK, Parson might be able to use them as shields and make it too expensive for Charlie's Archons to shoot at him. Being covered by several thousand bats might not be a lot of fun, though.
Lethologica
2016-07-25, 06:19 PM
It would be hilarious if Jed could repatriate units through Maggie.
eschmenk
2016-07-25, 06:37 PM
It would be hilarious if Jed could repatriate units through Maggie.
Well, if he gives Maggie the juice to do it, what's the difference?
ryuplaneswalker
2016-07-25, 09:27 PM
Escaping would be the worst Idea right now. Parson is in position to manipulate King Don, force him into a bad deal by making him utterly afraid of Charlie and FAQ.
Leewei
2016-07-26, 10:26 AM
Escaping would be the worst Idea right now. Parson is in position to manipulate King Don, force him into a bad deal by making him utterly afraid of Charlie and FAQ.
I agree, sort of. Jack could cloak them into and through the Magic Kingdom, which would really drive home to TV what a badass Parson was. TV may well be willing to discuss peace afterward. It'd have the additional benefit of moving the story forward, so that the trial in the MK could be dealt with.
Given their situation and the risks involved, I expect Parson to plan to escape, but to not attempt it quite yet.
The notion of Maggie's doll having life as long as Doller Bill is interesting. I wonder if that will come into play soon. It has the appearance of a Chekhov's gun.
DigoDragon
2016-07-26, 10:26 AM
It would be hilarious if Jed could repatriate units through Maggie.
Do their clothes return to their former GK duds, complete with lei and umbrella drink in hand? :3
Escaping would be the worst Idea right now. Parson is in position to manipulate King Don, force him into a bad deal by making him utterly afraid of Charlie and FAQ.
Yeah, things are starting to fall together for Parson here. He's got the Perfect Warlord mojo warmed up again.
Leewei
2016-07-26, 10:28 AM
Do their clothes return to their former GK duds, complete with lei and umbrella drink in hand? :3
Okay, that would be awesome. :smallamused:
The notion of Maggie's doll having life as long as Doller Bill is interesting.
I wonder if that will come into play soon. It has the appearance of a Chekhov's gun.
It would also give an idea what will happen with the decrypted when Wanda croaks/disappears,
as well as what might happen with the golems that are defending CC's capital (if they can find the caster/s that created them).
Do their clothes return to their former GK duds, complete with lei and umbrella drink in hand? :3
Nice idea, but I guess they would get their 'standard issue' raiment.
HalfTangible
2016-07-26, 12:12 PM
It would also give an idea what will happen with the decrypted when Wanda croaks/disappears,
as well as what might happen with the golems that are defending CC's capital (if they can find the caster/s that created them).
Nice idea, but I guess they would get their 'standard issue' raiment.
We know that a dollamancer's death leaves normal golems unaffected. See Shortcake and Ace.
Killer Angel
2016-07-26, 01:03 PM
Escaping would be the worst Idea right now. Parson is in position to manipulate King Don, force him into a bad deal by making him utterly afraid of Charlie and FAQ.
I don't think that to ally with Parson would be a "bad deal" for TV, in the long run... :smallwink:
Yuki Akuma
2016-07-26, 01:20 PM
We know that a dollamancer's death leaves normal golems unaffected. See Shortcake and Ace.
We also know that intelligent golems cease to be intelligent once the Dollamancer who created them dies.
HalfTangible
2016-07-26, 01:40 PM
We also know that intelligent golems cease to be intelligent once the Dollamancer who created them dies.
A) I thought it was the Thinkamancer in that instance?
B) I brought it up because he referred to the golems in CC's capital, which are probably unintelligent or one of the Archons would have told Parson.
Yuki Akuma
2016-07-26, 02:02 PM
A) I thought it was the Thinkamancer in that instance?
..It might've been. Either way, it has something to do with g-strings connecting a caster to another unit and such.
halfeye
2016-07-27, 10:15 AM
..It might've been. Either way, it has something to do with g-strings connecting a caster to another unit and such.
If the string can be cut and the intelligence retained, whatever it takes to do that, that means new intelligent units. What really happened with Ossomer? Did his intelligence fail when he returned?
ryuplaneswalker
2016-07-29, 06:58 AM
I don't think that to ally with Parson would be a "bad deal" for TV, in the long run... :smallwink:
Define bad deal? If Don betrays FAQ because Parson is manipulating him that effectively makes TV a pawn of GK..and Pawns get sacrificed :P
SZbNAhL
2016-07-29, 09:57 AM
Define bad deal? If Don betrays FAQ because Parson is manipulating him that effectively makes TV a pawn of GK..and Pawns get sacrificed :P
I think at this point his options are being Charlie's pawn, being Parson's pawn or being crushed under one or the other's heel (and/or being replaced by Caesar). Assuming that being crushed and/or replaced is not in his best interest, it's really just a case of who's more likely to sacrifice him.
memnarch
2016-07-29, 07:06 PM
Not a whole lot of info this update, but I like the old Mall of America logo use. :smallbiggrin:
Not a whole lot of info this update, but I like the old Mall of America logo use. :smallbiggrin:
In the previous update (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/180), when talking with Caesar, Parson was quite big
on seeing that Maggie was well, so he should be happy now :smallamused:
But it was implied that he also wanted to talk to her, at least briefly.
And they really need to exchange informations, esp. if Jed gave her an update...
So, what now?
* How much does he trust that Maggie controls the doll (and nobody is watching) ?
* Continue Q&A-session via writing on the wall ?
* Wake her, despite her request ?
* Wait until she wakes (and probably stops controlling the doll, so no return to their cells) ?
* Carry sleeping Maggie back to their cells ?
Whatever they do, some complications will arise :smallsigh:
Lizard Lord
2016-07-30, 03:44 AM
Continue Q&A would be my guess. Especially since all indicators that Parson wants to hear (or read I suppose) from Maggie herself about how she has been treated so far. Then, depending on how she answers, Parson will either plan an escape or have them all go back to their cells so they can negotiate with TV.
DigoDragon
2016-07-30, 08:07 AM
Whatever they do, some complications will arise :smallsigh:
Getting caught outside their cage would be a very big complication. :3
Kareasint
2016-07-30, 08:47 PM
Getting caught outside their cage would be a very big complication. :3
Unless this is how Caesar is allowing Parson to see that Maggie is okay. Intelligence is also easier to gather if you allow the prisoners to discuss among themselves while you listen in. This whole series has the appearance of a chess match between Caesar and Parson.
Anteros
2016-07-31, 09:01 AM
Ugh. I went to the site on my phone today (so no adblock) and it redirected me to a scam website. That crap is not ok.
SZbNAhL
2016-07-31, 11:25 AM
Ugh. I went to the site on my phone today (so no adblock) and it redirected me to a scam website. That crap is not ok.
Happening to me too. Guessing the site got hacked.
Anteros
2016-07-31, 12:08 PM
Happening to me too. Guessing the site got hacked.
Maybe you're right. My first reaction was that Rob wasn't properly screening his sponsors, but I suppose it's perfectly possible he got hacked. I shall contain my internet rage for now.
This wouldn't be the first time this has happened, however.
Anteros
2016-07-31, 11:09 PM
This wouldn't be the first time this has happened, however.
Alright. You've convinced me. Back to rabble rousing.
Lizard Lord
2016-08-01, 12:10 PM
Alright. You've convinced me. Back to rabble rousing.
You seem easily swayed. What if I just said "don't do it"?
Only one way to find out I suppose. Don't do it.
Killer Angel
2016-08-01, 01:32 PM
Update?
well, that was an unexpected plan. I don't think i'd like to see it executed, though...
DigoDragon
2016-08-01, 02:28 PM
well, that was an unexpected plan. I don't think i'd like to see it executed, though...
I agree that I'm not for the plan, buuut I really do like that we got the gamer Parson back for this page. Thinking up out-of-box crazy ideas to turn the tide and pull a victory.
I guess if Maggie says she hasn't been tortured, Parson may not go through with the idea and just focus on cutting the deal with Caesar?
Xihirli
2016-08-01, 03:47 PM
It would just be odd to spend so much time setting up the politics and ins-and-outs of negotiating with Transylvito to just skip that part entirely and kill everyone.
Though it would be a nice change of pace.
Binks
2016-08-01, 03:58 PM
Really hoping he's just asking that question to confirm what Ceaser said. If Maggie agrees that she wasn't tortured* that might be enough to get Parson going in the other direction and trusting TV.
Though I will note we have another riddle game situation here. Everyone was asking 'how can Parson possibly escape TV' and he switched it around to 'how can we conquer TV'. Last time that happened they went through with his crazy plan and, though it was costly, it ended up pretty well for GK.
Hoping for a Maggie or Jack POV on Friday to resolve this situation. TV prisoner time is kind of turning into Namek IMHO, plenty going on, but it feels like we've been here forever at this point. Or, for non-DBZ fans, it's turning into 'Parson stepping through the Spacerock Portal'. :P
* I will note that Maggie has been shown to be extremely precise in her language, and, technically, what Bill did wouldn't fall under the standard definition of torture like what Ceaser did. Sure it was horrible and offensive, but she might be pragmatic enough to classify it as something else in her mind, tell Parson she wasn't tortured (not a lie then), and explain the full situation when they're not prisoners.
Lethologica
2016-08-01, 04:07 PM
...So, did they all remember to take Exotic Stupidworld Weapon Proficiency? 'Cause they don't have three auto-special guns. Then again, for this kind of work, they may not need it.
Spojaz
2016-08-01, 04:16 PM
Negotiating from a position of power that you can't even hint about without losing that power. Trouble. Looks like bluffing, and when eventually you have to use "plan z" it makes people afraid to talk with you. You can't win a wargame as the only player without the option of diplomacy.
This plan should not be used. It will give Charlie ideas.
Lethologica
2016-08-01, 04:20 PM
(Also, going meta for a second, Rob wouldn't have that last image if Parson was going to go through with this plan.)
Anteros
2016-08-01, 04:22 PM
You seem easily swayed. What if I just said "don't do it"?
Only one way to find out I suppose. Don't do it.
Don't do what? Be easily swayed? If you say so!
Edit: Just read the comic. The "plan" is moronic.
Putting aside that it involves murdering thousands of people in cold blood, it also sounds like a good way to instantly turn every single side against them again and kill any option for future diplomacy. It also costs them their only potential ally.
XanKrieger
2016-08-01, 07:22 PM
Since it would seem that Parson is basing his planning on whatever answer Maggie will have for his torture question, I guess we could discuss whether or not she was tortured by TV or it was the independent action of a caster. It could be based along the long-lived lack of complete communication issue where Maggie initially answers yes, but does not or can not clarify that Bill may have went beyond the bounds of what was allowed and was punished for his actions.
Either way, it's still considered torture that happened under the purview of TV and could push Parson to go through with this fairly insane plan. I find it fairly strange that Parson seems so extreme in his reaction to TV torturing criminals who have committed several war crimes for information.NOTE THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY VIEW ON TORTURE IN REAL LIFE. This seems highly pedestrian in Erfworld, does he prefer the GK version of killing them all and decrypting them.
HalfTangible
2016-08-01, 07:42 PM
Regarding the intelligence of this plan: Keep in mind that as far as the rest of the world knows, Parson's been nowhere near Transylvito. This won't be relevant once he decapitates them, but what WILL be relevant is the fact that he's been a prisoner of a side that has a reputation for horrific torture (see book 2/early book 3, the part where Caesar gets drunk) for several days. A prisoner escaping and croaking his captors isn't bad under normal circumstances; if anything the unit that does it will be celebrated as a champion. (and it's not like he can get in any MORE trouble with the MK; it's not like he PLANNED to show up in TV's capital anyway)
Now the RCC isn't gonna see it that way, but aside from Haggar (and possibly Jetstone), no one in the RCC is GK's friend anyway. Haggar would see a decapitation strike like this as a shrewd tactic; if King Dickie didn't care that his son died, he's not gonna care that TV's king died.
The only reason to distrust GK further after a decap strike like this would be to KNOW that Don and Caesar were trying to negotiate with him at the time. But why would they tell anyone this? They were essentially planning to betray the Coalition.
Regarding the plan's likelihood: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no, there's no way they're gonna actually do it.
eschmenk
2016-08-01, 08:37 PM
Regarding the intelligence of this plan: Keep in mind that as far as the rest of the world knows, Parson's been nowhere near Transylvito. This won't be relevant once he decapitates them, but what WILL be relevant is the fact that he's been a prisoner of a side that has a reputation for horrific torture (see book 2/early book 3, the part where Caesar gets drunk) for several days. A prisoner escaping and croaking his captors isn't bad under normal circumstances; if anything the unit that does it will be celebrated as a champion. (and it's not like he can get in any MORE trouble with the MK; it's not like he PLANNED to show up in TV's capital anyway)
If people are so ready to believe that Parson invaded CC intentionally, they would also be ready to believe that he invaded TV intentionally. Jojo would probably use Carnymancy again if it's necessary to use it convince people in the MK to be against GK.
Dream Maggie may be sharp enough to know how Parson would react if she says that she was tortured and may downplay it for that reason.
HalfTangible
2016-08-01, 09:04 PM
If people are so ready to believe that Parson invaded CC intentionally, they would also be ready to believe that he invaded TV intentionally. Jojo would probably use Carnymancy if it's necessary to use it convince them....
Uh... no.
The two situations are not even remotely comparable.
Parson entered the TV portal at random, at a point where the entirety of the MK was being hit by the collide-o-scope spell that made accurately picking a direction impossible. He went to the CC portal under veil and heavy guard and was seen deliberately walking in (in CC livery, moments before turning back and bringing a new archon with him).
Invading CC is the simplest answer to how they would have repatriated Lilith (working with the info the MK has, anyway). Invading TV deliberately requires a number of nigh-impossible things to occur.
eschmenk
2016-08-01, 09:45 PM
...
Uh... no.
The two situations are not even remotely comparable.
Parson entered the TV portal at random, at a point where the entirety of the MK was being hit by the collide-o-scope spell that made accurately picking a direction impossible. He went to the CC portal under veil and heavy guard and was seen deliberately walking in (in CC livery, moments before turning back and bringing a new archon with him).
Invading CC is the simplest answer to how they would have repatriated Lilith (working with the info the MK has, anyway). Invading TV deliberately requires a number of nigh-impossible things to occur.
That's the wrong way to look at it. When discussing what MK casters would think, you need to consider how things would look to them and how biased they are, not the way they would look to us.
It actually appeared that Parson entered the CC under GK livery thanks to Jack's spell. And what do people think the purpose of the Parson being stealthed, then walking through visible was? Why would Parson have left all of the guards in the MK? That so many people are wrong about what Parson was doing shows how biased against him they are.
It wouldn't have seemed "nigh-impossible" for Parson to have gone to TV intentionally. Most witnesses couldn't be sure that Parson hadn't gone into TV just before the spell was cast or that Parson was affected by the spell. (The GMs would know better, but they are already on Parson's side.) Also, if anyone saw the guns being delivered, it would look very much like an illegal GK attack. And let's not forget that Parson actually did invade TV and Parson fully intended to invade somewhere. Assuming Parson/GK has to admit that much, some people would probably think that it was TV's prerogative to torture him; Parson would get no sympathy from them.
DigoDragon
2016-08-01, 09:49 PM
Dream Maggie may be sharp enough to know how Parson would react if she says that she was tortured and may downplay it for that reason.
That was my thought. She'll probably assure him everything is fine and not to go Scarface on TV. :smalltongue:
HalfTangible
2016-08-01, 09:57 PM
That's the wrong way to look at it. When discussing what MK casters would think, you need to consider how things would look to them and how biased they are, not the way they would look to us.
It actually appeared that Parson entered the CC under GK livery thanks to Jack's spell. And what do people think the purpose of the Parson being stealthed, then walking through visible was? Why would Parson have left all of the guards in the MK? That so many people are wrong about what Parson was doing shows how biased against him they are.
It wouldn't have seemed "nigh-impossible" for Parson to have gone to TV intentionally. Most witnesses couldn't be sure that Parson hadn't gone into TV just before the spell was cast or that Parson was affected by the spell. (The GMs would know better, but they are already on Parson's side.) Also, if anyone saw the guns being delivered, it would look very much like an illegal GK attack. And let's not forget that Parson actually did invade TV and Parson fully intended to invade somewhere. Assuming Parson/GK has to admit that much, some people would probably think that it was TV's prerogative to torture him; Parson would get no sympathy from them.
You say we need to talk about what the MK casters know, but then you use reader knowledge to get there :smallconfused:
Jojo worked the crowd after several casters were shot, convincing them that Parson had been a GK unit from start to finish and that the bullets were from Knob. As far as the MK is concerned, after Lillith was repatriated by a veiled GK unit, Parson walked into CC's portal. When he came out, most casters with line of sight on the portal were shot and a battle broke out.
The casters in the MK were fully aware that Parson was in the fight when the 'scope went off, and personally experienced its exact effects. The idea that Parson directly invaded CC under truce is plausible (and in fact more likely) given what they know, the idea that he invaded TV deliberately is NOT.
From there, the rest of the scenario is business as usual for Erfworld: the prisoners escape and kill their leaders. The MK doesn't give 2 ****s about the outside world. yeah, Parson's violated their neutrality, but he's done that a hundred times over by now.
Also, I'm not saying they'd care about the torture; I'm saying that the prisoners in such a scenario would have a very strong motivation to escape.
Lizard Lord
2016-08-02, 04:43 AM
Don't do what? Be easily swayed? If you say so!
Edit: Just read the comic. The "plan" is moronic.
Putting aside that it involves murdering thousands of people in cold blood, it also sounds like a good way to instantly turn every single side against them again and kill any option for future diplomacy. It also costs them their only potential ally.
Not only one. You are forgetting their alliance with King Dicky (can't remember the name of his side). I don't blame you for forgetting since that was a while ago and nothing has come of it so far. And besides it was pretty much stated that Parson will only go through with this if he decides that Transylvito can't be their ally afterall (a decision based entirely on whether or not they tortured Maggie.) If you have a problem with that reasoning, fine, but Parson already made it clear in a previous update that there would be no deal if they hurt Maggie.
Also I am not sure if this would turn everyone against them. They are prisoners and Transylvito is very much their enemy at the moment (especially if they tortured a person that they swore they didn't.) While they did briefly discuss an alliance this situation is still far from an official parley.
Also keep in mind that the Magic Kingdom and Erfworld have a lot of different rules. In the Magic Kingdom anyone that doesn't throw the first punch would be treated as a civilian (as long as your a caster at least), but there are NO civilians in Erfworld proper. I believe it was mentioned somewhere in Book 1 that, more often than not, the only units in a conquered side that aren't croaked are Casters and High Level Warlords (which are captured and turned instead.) And every side aims to conquer their enemies.
Really the main downside I see is that other sides will no longer be inclined to capture Parson and would rather just croak him. And that can be easily fixed by not getting captured anymore. :smallwink:
With all that said I don't think that the plan will happen and if it does happen it won't work for some reason. Otherwise it would be a rather anti-climatic end to the Erfworld subplot. Not to mention Vinny would technically qualify as "in the field" (since he isn't in a Transylvito city) and we would get a rather unsatisfactory demise to a rather popular character.
HalfTangible
2016-08-02, 07:52 AM
With all that said I don't think that the plan will happen and if it does happen it won't work for some reason. Otherwise it would be a rather anti-climatic end to the Erfworld subplot. Not to mention Vinny would technically qualify as "in the field" (since he isn't in a Transylvito city) and we would get a rather unsatisfactory demise to a rather popular character.
Nah. He's in an allied city - he'd go barbarian and become Faq's prisoner.
TheWombatOfDoom
2016-08-02, 09:50 AM
...So, did they all remember to take Exotic Stupidworld Weapon Proficiency? 'Cause they don't have three auto-special guns. Then again, for this kind of work, they may not need it.
They do have auto special guns. They were taken by TV when they were taken prisoner. They don't need someone to put guns through the portal, they have their weapons right here. Golem Go Gettum.
DigoDragon
2016-08-02, 10:55 AM
They do have auto special guns. They were taken by TV when they were taken prisoner. They don't need someone to put guns through the portal, they have their weapons right here. Golem Go Gettum.
I'm not sure they know where those guns are, and time is limited.
lord_khaine
2016-08-02, 11:45 AM
I really, really dislike those "magical" guns though, to me it kinda ruins the world and the story to have weapons from out world suddenly appear and automatically be so superior.
HalfTangible
2016-08-02, 11:51 AM
I really, really dislike those "magical" guns though, to me it kinda ruins the world and the story to have weapons from out world suddenly appear and automatically be so superior.
You saying a gun ISN'T superior to a bow? :smallwink:
Erfworld's whole shtick is real-world references piled on so thick that it becomes a feature of the setting. It's also not that great without the autospecial thing, as we saw.
EDIT: It also requires at least 4 different caster types, two of which nobody wants to use (Carnymancer, Dirtamancer, Dollamancer, Thinkamancer) to get even a single autospecialled gun.
eschmenk
2016-08-02, 01:23 PM
EDIT: It also requires at least 4 different caster types, two of which nobody wants to use (Carnymancer, Dirtamancer, Dollamancer, Thinkamancer) to get even a single autospecialled gun.
We don't know that. I think all of Charlie's guns were created by Claud Guantlet working alone (plus Ivan to make the ammunition). Ivan said that only Claud was supposed to know what a gun was (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Hvs.tCF_138), so I doubt that anyone else could have been involved in creating them. How could they help make them without knowing what they were? It could be that Ivan wasn't counting Charlie, but I don't think that Charlie would have been needed, at least not after possibly teaching Claud what Claud needed to know or something like that. I don't know why you would think that a Carnymancer would be necessary to create the guns. The guns don't seem to involve Carnymancy.
You say we need to talk about what the MK casters know, but then you use reader knowledge to get there :smallconfused:
Yes, of course.
The casters in the MK were fully aware that Parson was in the fight when the 'scope went off, and personally experienced its exact effects. The idea that Parson directly invaded CC under truce is plausible (and in fact more likely) given what they know, the idea that he invaded TV deliberately is NOT.
That's your interpretation. Mine is different.
HalfTangible
2016-08-02, 01:40 PM
We don't know that. I think all of Charlie's guns were created by Claud Guantlet working alone (plus Ivan to make the ammunition). Ivan said that only Claud was supposed to know what a gun was (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Hvs.tCF_138), so I doubt that anyone else could have been involved in creating them. How could they help make them without knowing what they were? It could be that Ivan wasn't counting Charlie, but I don't think that Charlie would have been needed, at least not after possibly teaching Claud what Claud needed to know or something like that. I don't know why you would think that a Carnymancer would be necessary to create the guns. The guns don't seem to involve Carnymancy....
Are you serious?
Charlie has to know what guns are, he's used them personally and had access to them. He's used the term 'gun' on multiple occasions and Ivan has to know that Charlie has access to them because he's the one making them for him.
It's been established that Carnymancy allows a non-caster unit to cast from a scroll. It's also been established that the guns allow a non-archery unit to use them. Two plus two.
Looking back, the Thinkamancer was more of a stretch than the carnymancer (I misremembered the 'link-up with the big man' line - there's no evidence that a link-up is required to autospecial them)
If it were just Dollamancy Ace would be able to replicate it easily, especially with a working model in hand he can look over.
Yes, of course.
And you don't see the problem with using metaknowledge... and assigning that same knowledge to characters within the story who have no way of knowing it?
That's your interpretation. Mine is different.
What's up for interpretation here? The island got hit by the collide-o-scope.
ryuplaneswalker
2016-08-02, 06:57 PM
I really, really dislike those "magical" guns though, to me it kinda ruins the world and the story to have weapons from out world suddenly appear and automatically be so superior.
Meh in all fairness, a Bow that auto specials Archery would probably be just as powerful.
halfeye
2016-08-02, 07:12 PM
Meh in all fairness, a Bow that auto specials Archery would probably be just as powerful.
Compared to an ordinary bow yeah, compared to an ordinary automatic rifle? I don't believe it would be.
Anteros
2016-08-02, 09:53 PM
Regarding the intelligence of this plan: Keep in mind that as far as the rest of the world knows, Parson's been nowhere near Transylvito.
Probably a dozen people saw them go through the portal, and Charlie knows as well. You think he'd keep that quiet? It's far more beneficial to him to spread the information.
Not only one. You are forgetting their alliance with King Dicky (can't remember the name of his side). I don't blame you for forgetting since that was a while ago and nothing has come of it so far. And besides it was pretty much stated that Parson will only go through with this if he decides that Transylvito can't be their ally afterall (a decision based entirely on whether or not they tortured Maggie.) If you have a problem with that reasoning, fine, but Parson already made it clear in a previous update that there would be no deal if they hurt Maggie.
Also I am not sure if this would turn everyone against them. They are prisoners and Transylvito is very much their enemy at the moment (especially if they tortured a person that they swore they didn't.) While they did briefly discuss an alliance this situation is still far from an official parley.
Also keep in mind that the Magic Kingdom and Erfworld have a lot of different rules. In the Magic Kingdom anyone that doesn't throw the first punch would be treated as a civilian (as long as your a caster at least), but there are NO civilians in Erfworld proper. I believe it was mentioned somewhere in Book 1 that, more often than not, the only units in a conquered side that aren't croaked are Casters and High Level Warlords (which are captured and turned instead.) And every side aims to conquer their enemies.
Really the main downside I see is that other sides will no longer be inclined to capture Parson and would rather just croak him. And that can be easily fixed by not getting captured anymore. :smallwink:
With all that said I don't think that the plan will happen and if it does happen it won't work for some reason. Otherwise it would be a rather anti-climatic end to the Erfworld subplot. Not to mention Vinny would technically qualify as "in the field" (since he isn't in a Transylvito city) and we would get a rather unsatisfactory demise to a rather popular character.
Did the Dicky thing actually solidify into an alliance? I thought he was just open to listening. I admit that I'm too lazy to go check.
As far as the plan goes. If they go through with it, this will be the third time that someone has considered dealing with Parson only to be annihilated as a result. They spent the last hundred comics trying to shake that reputation. And people will find out. TV has a thinkomancer, and Charlie also has a unit on the scene.
HalfTangible
2016-08-02, 10:46 PM
Probably a dozen people saw them go through the portal, and Charlie knows as well. You think he'd keep that quiet? It's far more beneficial to him to spread the information.
1) Remember how Charlie's entire reason for sending Vanna to find Parson was to manipulate TV into "informing" Charlie that they wanted to collect on a bounty? And how the entire reason for it is that he can't 'spread it around' that he knows this stuff, because it will hurt his future dealings if his full capabilities become known?
And that the last time he did this he turned the GMTTA against him?
2) Again, Collide-o-scope. They know he went through a portal because there's nothing else he could have done in this scenario, but no one knows where he is.
Anteros
2016-08-02, 10:58 PM
It's not like Charlie has to make an announcement. He just has to have someone leak the info so no one knows it's attached to him. He's good at that sort of thing.
HalfTangible
2016-08-02, 11:05 PM
It's not like Charlie has to make an announcement. He just has to have someone leak the info so no one knows it's attached to him. He's good at that sort of thing.
Then why didn't he just do this before instead of playing the 'discovery theater' game?
Answer: He couldn't have, because information gathering and subterfuge don't work like that.
Stop ignoring the collide-o-scope. No one knew what was happening in those last few moments of combat.
Anteros
2016-08-02, 11:12 PM
Then why didn't he just do this before instead of playing the 'discovery theater' game?
Answer: He couldn't have, because information gathering and subterfuge don't work like that.
Stop ignoring the collide-o-scope. No one knew what was happening in those last few moments of combat.
Because it's currently not nearly as beneficial for him to do so as it would be after Parson obliterated TV? Duh?
And yes, it literally does work like that. We literally know that Charlie has casters that people don't know work for him do this type of thing all the time.
The collide-o-scope has literally nothing to do with Charlie spreading information, and I don't feel like arguing about it.
HalfTangible
2016-08-02, 11:26 PM
Because it's currently not nearly as beneficial for him to do so as it would be after Parson obliterated TV? Duh?At that point he wouldn't need to spread the information that Parson was in TV because everyone would know :smallconfused:
And yes, it literally does work like that. We literally know that Charlie has casters that people don't know work for him do this type of thing all the time.
Saying 'literally' does nothing to make your point any better, especially when it's redundant in the sentence.
No, we don't know this. We know that Charlie has casters under his command that other people don't know about. We don't know that he has them "spread information" - if anything he's said the exact opposite is true: he doesn't want info that people shouldn't know being spread around because it hints at his capabilities (see previous Charlie page on why the GMTTA are his enemies)
The collide-o-scope has literally nothing to do with Charlie spreading information, and I don't feel like arguing about it.
Too bad, you can't have a discussion if you're going to ignore things that are relevant to the discussion. It's relevant because you want him to spread the info through other sources that have no access to the information he wants them to spread and everyone knows it.
Lizard Lord
2016-08-03, 01:42 AM
Probably a dozen people saw them go through the portal, and Charlie knows as well. You think he'd keep that quiet? It's far more beneficial to him to spread the information.
Did the Dicky thing actually solidify into an alliance? I thought he was just open to listening. I admit that I'm too lazy to go check.
As far as the plan goes. If they go through with it, this will be the third time that someone has considered dealing with Parson only to be annihilated as a result. They spent the last hundred comics trying to shake that reputation. And people will find out. TV has a thinkomancer, and Charlie also has a unit on the scene.
Charlie doesn't know TV is considering an alliance with GK. No one does. Until recently they weren't considering an alliance and only started to consider it when they noticed Charlie trying to trick them, so there is no way even Charlie could know.
If they get conquered here they would just be the side that got conquered by their prisoner rather than the side that was conquered during peace talks. And, again, Parson is only planning on going through with this if he decides that he doesn't want to ally with TV no matter what.
EDIT: It also requires at least 4 different caster types, two of which nobody wants to use (Carnymancer, Dirtamancer, Dollamancer, Thinkamancer) to get even a single autospecialled gun.
We don't know for certain it is Carnymancy.
Weirdomancy also adds and removes attributes, like e.g. flying. It's possible other disciplines are involved.
My pet hypothesis is that you need a Weirdomancer/Dollamancer.
Also what professions are disliked? Carnymancy and ?
DigoDragon
2016-08-03, 08:18 AM
Compared to an ordinary bow yeah, compared to an ordinary automatic rifle? I don't believe it would be.
The DPS of the rifle is probably higher on the account of a faster firing rate.
SZbNAhL
2016-08-03, 08:27 AM
Also what professions are disliked? Carnymancy and ?
Dirtamancy. Just look at how Sizemore was treated before Parson showed up, or how the more traditional sides reacted to Digdoug.
HalfTangible
2016-08-03, 08:43 AM
We don't know for certain it is Carnymancy.
Weirdomancy also adds and removes attributes, like e.g. flying. It's possible other disciplines are involved.
My pet hypothesis is that you need a Weirdomancer/Dollamancer.
Also what professions are disliked? Carnymancy and ?
We know that Weirdomancy is the magic of altering other magics and can grant specials to what it's cast on, not break the rules that require you to have an archery special. We also know that only Claud, Ivan and Charlie know about guns, so unless Charlie is a weirdomancer as well as a carnymancer (which is possible, given how he spoke of "learning enough to become a croakamancer") it's probably carnymancy.
My theory is that they're going to have a Weirdomancer team up with a dollamancer make more guns, but they'll need a gun that's already "enchanted" for lack of a better term to duplicate the effect. (also that the Weirdomancer will be the heir TV is popping :smallwink: )
Dirtamancy.
The DPS of the rifle is probably higher on the account of a faster firing rate.
IIRC it was stated to be able to insta-croak people you shoot (though that's contradicted by Parson surviving the initial onslaught at CC's portal, so it either only insta-croaks non-heavies and non-knights or it just has high dps and people are using hyperbole)
halfeye
2016-08-03, 10:00 AM
The DPS of the rifle is probably higher on the account of a faster firing rate.
That's true, or it ought to be, however the range of the rifle is much further, and the flight time of the projectiles is much lower, at long range an arrow can be dodged, a bullet isn't slow enough for that.
guttering flame
2016-08-03, 10:06 AM
Parson's plan will fail from the getgo. Just because it sounds cool to gamer Parson doesn't make it valid. Even if they manage to dodge all counter-attacks and have enough bullets to kill the population of an entire city, the rock golems in TV will be impervious to bullets and croak them before long. They'll need bazookas or anti-tank missiles for that.
A real plan would have them sneak to the royal bedroom with weapons and assassinate the king. That might have at least a chance of working.
HalfTangible
2016-08-03, 10:11 AM
Parson's plan will fail from the getgo. Just because it sounds cool to gamer Parson doesn't make it valid. Even if they manage to dodge all counter-attacks and have enough bullets to kill the population of an entire city, the rock golems in TV will be impervious to bullets and croak them before long. They'll need bazookas or anti-tank missiles for that.
A real plan would have them sneak to the royal bedroom with weapons and assassinate the king. That might have at least a chance of working.
Golems aren't tanks; they can be harmed by ranged weapons, we know that, and we also know that statues can be harmed by bullets (see the page where we see how bad of a shot Ace is). In addition, assassinating the King and his Heir is Parson's plan in any case (though I doubt it will succeed, if only for drama purposes).
What I think is most likely is that Parson will either not attack anyone, or will go for Vanna.
DigoDragon
2016-08-03, 10:16 AM
IIRC it was stated to be able to insta-croak people you shoot (though that's contradicted by Parson surviving the initial onslaught at CC's portal, so it either only insta-croaks non-heavies and non-knights or it just has high dps and people are using hyperbole)
I was thinking hyperbole because of the weapon's high damage potential, unless "Insta-croak" is a special with a random chance of triggering on a hit.
That's true, or it ought to be, however the range of the rifle is much further, and the flight time of the projectiles is much lower, at long range an arrow can be dodged, a bullet isn't slow enough for that.
I imagine an arms race is in the making here once the problem of the archery special is settled. Dirtamancers will suddenly be in high demand to supply ammo for the new weapons of Erf warfare.
Sizemore will be thrilled. Not.
guttering flame
2016-08-03, 10:31 AM
Golems aren't tanks; they can be harmed by ranged weapons, we know that, and we also know that statues can be harmed by bullets (see the page where we see how bad of a shot Ace is). In addition, assassinating the King and his Heir is Parson's plan in any case (though I doubt it will succeed, if only for drama purposes).
What I think is most likely is that Parson will either not attack anyone, or will go for Vanna.
Rock golems can be chipped but it'll take a lot of bullets (and time) to croak them.
Assassination means a targeted surprise strike, not loudly shooting anyone in sight.
IIRC it was stated to be able to insta-croak people you shoot (though that's contradicted by Parson surviving the initial onslaught at CC's portal, so it either only insta-croaks non-heavies and non-knights or it just has high dps and people are using hyperbole)
They're lethal because they're poisoned (with dirtamancy). If you're healed quickly the poison is negated. In the future, armies might have anti-poison protection of some sort.
HalfTangible
2016-08-03, 10:36 AM
Rock golems can be chipped but it'll take a lot of bullets (and time) to croak them.
Assassination means a targeted surprise strike, not loudly shooting anyone in sight.
They're lethal because they're poisoned (with dirtamancy). If you're healed quickly the poison is negated. In the future, armies might have anti-poison protection of some sort.
.........
Poison is Flower Power, not Dirtamancy. :smalltongue:
Aquillion
2016-08-03, 10:45 AM
We saw Sizemore use what looked like some sort of Dirtamancy poison gas trap in the tunnels. Presumably there are both Dirtamancy poisons and Flower Power poisons (just like there's both mineral and vegetable poisons in the real world.)
Although I should add that I don't buy that poison is what makes the guns instantly deadly.
IIRC it was stated to be able to insta-croak people you shoot (though that's contradicted by Parson surviving the initial onslaught at CC's portal, so it either only insta-croaks non-heavies and non-knights or it just has high dps and people are using hyperbole)Or Parson could be covered by special rules here, since he seems to take damage the way a real-world human would rather than the way Erfworld people do.
HalfTangible
2016-08-03, 11:27 AM
We saw Sizemore use what looked like some sort of Dirtamancy poison gas trap in the tunnels. Presumably there are both Dirtamancy poisons and Flower Power poisons (just like there's both mineral and vegetable poisons in the real world.)Traps are not the same thing as poison in Erfworld, though (heck, I assumed the bullets were a form of dirtamancy trap. Like a tiny bomb). Parson states that his "poison blood" is flower power (i know it's a bluff, but Caesar didn't call him out on it, and both of them seem to know about the magic of their world better than we do)
Or Parson could be covered by special rules here, since he seems to take damage the way a real-world human would rather than the way Erfworld people do.
I specifically mentioned knights because we also saw Lillith get hit by bullets and live, and while Archons don't like to be called Knights, that is technically their unit type. It could be both that Parson is operating on different rules than the Erfworld units AND that the guns don't do as well against knights, i suppose? But it seems simpler to just assume it's hyperbole or because he's a heavy unit.
Jasdoif
2016-08-03, 04:04 PM
The collide-o-scope has literally nothing to do with Charlie spreading information, and I don't feel like arguing about it.That's too bad, because it turns out it's rather pivotal in this scenario. Anyone who was in Portal Park to see Parson was there (including all the ones attacking Parson) would be subject to the collide-o-scope's effects, and would thus have no way to have determining which portal Parson went through.
So who, exactly, is Charlie going to spread this particular information through? Himself, opening up all the questions on how he could know that the whole "discovery theater (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150)" thing is intended to keep closed? Or some other party, which isn't going to have Charlie's reputation for knowing things and thus won't be taken seriously on claims of things they have no way of knowing about...and which is likely to tip off Transylvito about Charlie's involvement if someone thinks the claim is worth investigating and tries to find out from them if they have Parson?
IIRC it was stated to be able to insta-croak people you shoot (though that's contradicted by Parson surviving the initial onslaught at CC's portal, so it either only insta-croaks non-heavies and non-knights or it just has high dps and people are using hyperbole)I'm not inclined to trust Jojo on the matter. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/125)
HalfTangible
2016-08-03, 04:11 PM
I'm not inclined to trust Jojo on the matter. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/125)
Except I remember Caesar saying it, when he was ragging on Ben for thinking the Bracer was the best thing they'd found. :smallconfused:
Jasdoif
2016-08-03, 04:38 PM
Except I remember Caesar saying it, when he was ragging on Ben for thinking the Bracer was the best thing they'd found. :smallconfused:Hmm, did he?....Oh, yes, he did (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/147). Caesar's phrasing that it can "insta-croak guys" doesn't sound to me like he's suggesting it does so consistently, unlike Jojo's implication...which is probably why I remembered Jojo saying it and not Caesar.
Anyway, my unsupported guess is that "insta-croak" is supposed to reflect both high damage for a ranged weapon and an ability to instantly croak units which would otherwise be incapacitated.
Boring McReader
2016-08-03, 06:07 PM
It's strange Parson doesn't consider the possible diplomatic downsides of his plan. How many of the sides he's been courting to fight Charlie would continue to trust him if he keeps using every opportunity to hurt them? He'd be risking a lot of recent advances in the area he's been working hardest.
HalfTangible
2016-08-03, 06:17 PM
Hmm, did he?....Oh, yes, he did (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/147). Caesar's phrasing that it can "insta-croak guys" doesn't sound to me like he's suggesting it does so consistently, unlike Jojo's implication...which is probably why I remembered Jojo saying it and not Caesar.
Anyway, my unsupported guess is that "insta-croak" is supposed to reflect both high damage for a ranged weapon and an ability to instantly croak units which would otherwise be incapacitated.
Which is ironic, because I didn't remember Jojo's schpiel at all since he's an unreliable source of info :smallwink:
My guess is that it instacroaks regular 'fodder' units, but Warlords, Casters, Heavies and Knights just take a lot of damage.
eschmenk
2016-08-03, 08:12 PM
...
Are you serious?
Charlie has to know what guns are, he's used them personally and had access to them. He's used the term 'gun' on multiple occasions and Ivan has to know that Charlie has access to them because he's the one making them for him.
First of all, Ivan isn't making guns for anyone. He's storing guns. AFAIK, we can't be certain that he knows that Charlie was getting guns. Yeah, he probably should be able to figure that out, and maybe he does know, but Charlie is very good at covering his tracks.
It's been established that Carnymancy allows a non-caster unit to cast from a scroll. It's also been established that the guns allow a non-archery unit to use them. Two plus two.
That's very weak. The auto-special ability fits Weirdomancy better than it fits Carnymancy.
If it were just Dollamancy Ace would be able to replicate it easily, especially with a working model in hand he can look over.
Yes, but if Claud can cast outside his discipline, he might be able to do what Ace couldn't do. Ivan can do things by himself that Dirtmancers normally can't do. Why would Claud necessarily be unable to do things by himself that Dollamancers normally can't do?
And you don't see the problem with using metaknowledge... and assigning that same knowledge to characters within the story who have no way of knowing it?
Of course I saw the problem. That's why I objected to you doing it!
What's up for interpretation here? The island got hit by the collide-o-scope.
Exactly, so the casters couldn't observe Parson very well, could they? If I understand what you are saying correctly, it's that the casters could see Parson so clearly that they could tell that he was affected by the spell (despite being an exception to other rules and despite the people casting it not being affected and having a pro-Parson bias), but they couldn't see him clearly enough to know that he went through the TV portal. That doesn't seem very consistent to me.
HalfTangible
2016-08-03, 08:47 PM
First of all, Ivan isn't making guns for anyone. He's storing guns. Ivan may be making ammunition, though. AFAIK, we can't be certain that he knows that Charlie was getting guns. Yeah, he probably should be able to figure that out, but Charlie is very good at covering his tracks.We know that Ivan has done work on Charlescomm the city, which implies a significant level of trust on Charlie's part. Ivan also calls his gig with Charlie a good one, which implies he's got a pretty solid Rand count for his upkeep.
Occam's razor.
That's very weak.Making an item usable by a unit that normally can't use it.
It is literally.
The exact.
Same.
Thing. *twitch*
Your idea relies on the assumption Claud has a power we have no evidence he has access to. Occam's razor.
Yes, but if Claud can cast outside his discipline, he might be able to do what Ace couldn't do.Again, we've seen no indication whatsoever that Claud can do this.
Of course I saw the problem. That's why I objected to you doing it!You did, and then when I pointed that out you said "yes, of course". That is the exact opposite of 'objecting'.
Exactly, so the casters couldn't observe Parson very well, could they? If I understand what you are saying correctly, it's that the casters could see Parson so clearly that they could tell that he was affected by the spell (despite being an exception to other rules and despite the people casting it not being affected and having a pro-Parson bias), but they couldn't see him clearly enough to know that he went through the TV portal. That doesn't seem very consistent to me....
:smallsigh: *rubs temples*
Okay. So...
I'll admit, I didn't even consider this, because it makes even less sense than what you were arguing before. Parson having control of himself (while the entire rest of the island remained in a confused and befuddled state) raises whole new questions that make his actions at the portal beyond idiotic.
In no particular order:
-Parson's plan to escape through the portals at random was because he had no friendly escape routes, including the GK portal. If the entire park was neutralized except him, he'd have ample time to get his most valuable units (Wanda, Maggie, and Jack - in that order) through the GK portal. Or he could have taken the time to gun down more casters and chucked THEIR corpses through the portal. Why didn't he do that?
-If Parson had entered an enemy city to take it and kill the ruler (for whatever reason) he would have gone in guns blazing (especially with the evil 'LET EVERYTHING BUUUUUURN' narrative they're building). The fact that he was in the city for (i dunno, a week? It's been at least 3 days.) means that he had to have been captured at some point. If he'd gone through killing everything in sight, why wasn't he executed?
-Why would the MK start assuming things that Parson was immune to? Erfworld is heavily entrenched in traditions and old ideas.
-GK has bigger enemies than TV with weaker lines of succession (primarily, Jetstone). Why not go for one of them? Even if they don't know about the succession stuff they know that GK just assassinated Jetstone's king by going through his portal.
-If Parson is so powerful that he can render himself immune to spells powerful enough to affect every caster on the island, why did spells work on him previously such as the Vulcan grip in book 1?
-There is no way in hell Parson could have planned for everything that went down in Portal Park, even with the narrative that the MK is building.
Bias makes you INCLINED to think a certain way, it doesn't shut your brain off.
Jasdoif
2016-08-03, 09:16 PM
Exactly, so the casters couldn't observe Parson very well, could they? If I understand what you are saying correctly, it's that the casters could see Parson so clearly that they could tell that he was affected by the spell (despite being an exception to other rules and despite the people casting it not being affected and having a pro-Parson bias), but they couldn't see him clearly enough to know that he went through the TV portal. That doesn't seem very consistent to me.Any caster that is seriously willing to accept that Parson could be an exception to absolutely any rule at all, without any specific evidence on the rule in question...has declared themselves completely incapable of understanding or influencing Parson, and should be ignored on the topic of Parson.
Anteros
2016-08-03, 11:14 PM
That's too bad, because it turns out it's rather pivotal in this scenario. Anyone who was in Portal Park to see Parson was there (including all the ones attacking Parson) would be subject to the collide-o-scope's effects, and would thus have no way to have determining which portal Parson went through.
So who, exactly, is Charlie going to spread this particular information through? Himself, opening up all the questions on how he could know that the whole "discovery theater (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150)" thing is intended to keep closed? Or some other party, which isn't going to have Charlie's reputation for knowing things and thus won't be taken seriously on claims of things they have no way of knowing about...and which is likely to tip off Transylvito about Charlie's involvement if someone thinks the claim is worth investigating and tries to find out from them if they have Parson?
I'm not inclined to trust Jojo on the matter. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/125)
There's millions of ways to spread information that doesn't come from him. People don't have to know where a rumor originated in order to believe it.
If you want something more concrete, all he has to do is have Jojo say he learned it from Vanna. Jojo isn't publicly known to work for him, and he has a connection to Vanna who is currently in TV. He's also very good at getting people to believe things, even when they shouldn't. Remember that just because we don't trust a character as readers doesn't mean he isn't trusted by other characters.
Charlie doesn't know TV is considering an alliance with GK. No one does. Until recently they weren't considering an alliance and only started to consider it when they noticed Charlie trying to trick them, so there is no way even Charlie could know.
If they get conquered here they would just be the side that got conquered by their prisoner rather than the side that was conquered during peace talks. And, again, Parson is only planning on going through with this if he decides that he doesn't want to ally with TV no matter what.
By this logic, no one knows that TV has Parson prisoner.
The fact that GK has been making peace initiatives is known to every single relevant side. If you follow these initiatives up by exterminating one of the sides you offered peace to? That's not a good look. Especially considering that they spent the last 100 strips trying to shake their reputation for doing exactly this.
eschmenk
2016-08-04, 10:12 AM
You did, and then when I pointed that out you said "yes, of course". That is the exact opposite of 'objecting'.
I was replying to this, which was the first paragraph in your reply:
You say we need to talk about what the MK casters know, but then you use reader knowledge to get there :smallconfused:
Yes, of course I used reader knowledge to be able to judge what the MK casters knew. Then you use that to figure out how they would react. It's pretty straightforward.
The whole conversation has become silly. I don't want to spend more time on it.
HalfTangible
2016-08-04, 10:26 AM
I was replying to this, which was the first paragraph in your reply:
Yes, of course I used reader knowledge to be able to judge what the MK casters knew. Then you use that to figure out how they would react. It's pretty straightforward.
I meant you were using metaknowledge - ie, things that the casters DON'T know but we do :smallannoyed:
The whole conversation has become silly. I don't want to spend more time on it.
Fine.
smuchmuch
2016-08-04, 10:48 AM
better to eliminate someone that strike a deal with them. Oh yeah, Marie, I can see how that's the man whose gonna bring peace to Erfword, Janis must be proud.
Yuki Akuma
2016-08-04, 10:57 AM
better to eliminate someone that strike a deal with them. Oh yeah, Marie, I can see how that's the man whose gonna bring peace to Erfword, Janis must be proud.
Hey, when everyone but your friends are dead, you've got peace!
HalfTangible
2016-08-04, 11:18 AM
better to eliminate someone that strike a deal with them. Oh yeah, Marie, I can see how that's the man whose gonna bring peace to Erfword, Janis must be proud.
I doubt that's what Marie actually wants. Marie's goals seem to be more aligned with helping Fate than preventing war. And keep in mind: fate decrees on occasion that units die burning.
And Parson DID say he's not going to deal with TV if they tortured Maggie, and they told him they hadn't. Putting aside that his choice here is emotional over logical, if they're lying about that, they ain't trustworthy anyway.
I don't think it'll happen, though. It's too anticlimactic a way for TV's arc and various plot threads to end.
Anteros
2016-08-04, 06:44 PM
better to eliminate someone that strike a deal with them. Oh yeah, Marie, I can see how that's the man whose gonna bring peace to Erfword, Janis must be proud.
Which is stupid and incorrect as well. It might be true in a strategy game with 3 or 4 players, but in one with dozens? Far better to make an ally than to eliminate one enemy.
ryuplaneswalker
2016-08-05, 07:48 AM
Which is stupid and incorrect as well. It might be true in a strategy game with 3 or 4 players, but in one with dozens? Far better to make an ally than to eliminate one enemy.
Also you can't eliminate every other player. The Rules of the world don't allow that.
also since I was looking it up to find meanings
makuahine (irregular plural mākuahine)
mother
any female relative of the parents' generation
Kakakanui seems to be gibberish?
DigoDragon
2016-08-05, 07:59 AM
If anyone can convince Parson not to blow up TV, it's his dream girl powered by a giant talking head. :smalltongue:
Yuki Akuma
2016-08-05, 09:20 AM
Kakakanui is indeed gibberish, but the comic says kanakanui, which means "powerful man". :smallwink:
ryuplaneswalker
2016-08-05, 05:24 PM
Kakakanui is indeed gibberish, but the comic says kanakanui, which means "powerful man". :smallwink:
Hmm wonder how I missed that, i kept looking to make sure I was spelling it right.
That is what I get for doing it before bedtime.
Porthos
2016-08-05, 06:22 PM
better to eliminate someone that strike a deal with them. Oh yeah, Marie, I can see how that's the man whose gonna bring peace to Erfword, Janis must be proud.
Today's update seems to be relevant to this consideration. :smalltongue:
Mind, it's not as if Parson didn't have cause. More to the point, he's reacting emotionally to someone he loves, at least on some level.
It really is interesting to see the subtleties of the situation. Jack, via translation, was trying to twist the situation to make it easier for Parson to strike out. Maggie realized that one of the things she loves about Parson is his humanity. And Parson realizing that Maggie is RIGHT, but still looking for an out.
Parson wants to attack. Parson also wants not to attack. He's conflicted over the whole damn thing, and who wouldn't be in his position.
But he's also doing something critical here: Being willing to listen to reason.
This might be one of the more critical updates when it comes to character arcs.
...
Wonder how Jack's gonna take it all, considering it was rather apparent he was trying to egg things on ("Parson: Ask if she was tortured" "Jack: Were you treated somewhat inhumanely?") Sure, it's Jack being Jack-like. But when I read that, combined with Maggie's own suspicion that Jack was editorializing, it's pretty clear to me that Jack was trying to put his thumb on the scale.
He probably won't care all that much in the end. But something I'm going to note for future reference. :smallwink:
Anteros
2016-08-05, 07:15 PM
I liked this chapter. Good character development for both Parson and Maggie.
Decrypted units seem to come back much darker than they were in life. I wonder if that's Wanda's influence, or a natural consequence of decryption. If Ossomer has survived, I wonder if he would have been just like his previous self, or tainted by the process.
eschmenk
2016-08-05, 07:35 PM
Decrypted units seem to come back much darker than they were in life. I wonder if that's Wanda's influence, or a natural consequence of decryption. If Ossomer has survived, I wonder if he would have been just like his previous self, or tainted by the process.
I'm not so sure the Jack is darker than he was. Granted, before he was decrypted, he was nice to Jillian, but was that because she liked to kill people? Because she stirred things up and caused problems? He was just irrationally in love with her? Other than the way he treated Jillian, I didn't get the impression that he was all that nice of a guy. Jack tended to be very irreverent and liked to stir things up and suffering never seemed to bother him. If you take that far enough, that would explain his behavior in the current update.
Regarding other characters: Ace doesn't seem to have become dark at all. Bonnie seems to be behaving the same as she did before, not that we knew her that well. Ansom had some of his rigid opinions reversed, but didn't seem to be any darker. I really don't see the additional darkness, other than them being OK with Wanda's.
HalfTangible
2016-08-05, 07:41 PM
I'm not so sure the Jack is darker than he was. Granted, before he was decrypted, he was nice to Jillian, but was that because she liked to kill people? Because she stirred things up and caused problems? He was just irrationally in love with her? Other than the way he treated Jillian, I didn't get the impression that he was all that nice of a guy. Jack tended to be very irreverent and liked to stir things up and suffering never seemed to bother him. If you take that far enough, that would explain his behavior in the current update.
Regarding other characters: Ace doesn't seem to have become dark at all. Bonnie seems to be behaving the same as she did before, not that we knew her that well. Ansom had some of his rigid opinions reversed, but didn't seem to be any darker. I really don't see the additional darkness, other than them being OK with Wanda's.
The main difference we've seen in Decrypted psychology is a fanatical, religious devotion to Wanda and GK.
Anteros
2016-08-05, 08:17 PM
I'm not so sure the Jack is darker than he was. Granted, before he was decrypted, he was nice to Jillian, but was that because she liked to kill people? Because she stirred things up and caused problems? He was just irrationally in love with her? Other than the way he treated Jillian, I didn't get the impression that he was all that nice of a guy. Jack tended to be very irreverent and liked to stir things up and suffering never seemed to bother him. If you take that far enough, that would explain his behavior in the current update.
Regarding other characters: Ace doesn't seem to have become dark at all. Bonnie seems to be behaving the same as she did before, not that we knew her that well. Ansom had some of his rigid opinions reversed, but didn't seem to be any darker. I really don't see the additional darkness, other than them being OK with Wanda's.
Old Jack would have never tried to influence Parson into this plan. He would have participated, and possibly even approved of the clever nature, but he wouldn't have taken an active role in convincing Parson to do it.
Ansom definitely feels much darker to me. The old Ansom would risk himself to prevent casualties to his men. Often to the point of foolishness. The new Ansom seems completely single minded on his holy war, and is willing to do things like assassinate Jill.
We didn't know the other characters well enough to judge a difference.
Maybe "fanatical" is a better word than "dark" though. They put advancing the cause over their personal natures, which wasn't always the case before.
Aidjn
2016-08-05, 09:48 PM
At that point he wouldn't need to spread the information that Parson was in TV because everyone would know :smallconfused:
Saying 'literally' does nothing to make your point any better, especially when it's redundant in the sentence.
No, we don't know this. We know that Charlie has casters under his command that other people don't know about. We don't know that he has them "spread information" - if anything he's said the exact opposite is true: he doesn't want info that people shouldn't know being spread around because it hints at his capabilities (see previous Charlie page on why the GMTTA are his enemies)
Too bad, you can't have a discussion if you're going to ignore things that are relevant to the discussion. It's relevant because you want him to spread the info through other sources that have no access to the information he wants them to spread and everyone knows it.
You do realize all they have to do is say "I was on the edge of the effect and saw what was happening?", right? And if someone questions them on how they were able to see, they could pull some crap like "I cast something to look past the effects" (maybe with a scroll), or just say that there were no effects from their perspective and it looked entirely subjective to those under it. For all we know, a Lookamancer or some other type of caster negated the collide-o-scope somehow on their person and we simply haven't heard about it.
Ok, here's the thing, btw: if Charlie go pays a caster to spread I heard from x who heard from x who was there kind of information, there is no way to tie that caster OR the information to him. We have the perspective of knowing when and where a character is and what they know. The casters in the MK don't. You could pull any kind of nonsense out of your hat as long as you had a decent reputation and a plausible explanation to how you got it. The Great Minds became Charlie's enemies because Charlie directly revealed to someone information he shouldn't be able to access through any other means than capabilities the Great Minds don't want him to have. That's significantly different than Charlie paying casters who have no known ties to Charlie to say something that couldn't be directly refuted.
It boggles my mind you think Charlie, the information king, the person who tries to have his finger in every pie and use every dirty trick to do it, would not attempt to sneakily subvert the popular opinion of the Magic Kingdom. In fact, we know he has an excellent reputation there (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_2/25); what else is that but casters spreading information for him? It's not even beyond plausibility that the sole reason he hired some of those casters was to create that sort of reputation in the first place.
HalfTangible
2016-08-05, 10:29 PM
You do realize all they have to do is say "I was on the edge of the effect and saw what was happening?", right?
The collide-o-scope was said to hit all of the Magic Kingdom, as I recall :smallconfused:
This discussion has already been dropped and I don't want to have it anymore, either, so I'm not going to address the rest of your post. Okay?
Jasdoif
2016-08-05, 11:39 PM
You do realize all they have to do is say "I was on the edge of the effect and saw what was happening?", right? And if someone questions them on how they were able to see, they could pull some crap like "I cast something to look past the effects" (maybe with a scroll), or just say that there were no effects from their perspective and it looked entirely subjective to those under it. For all we know, a Lookamancer or some other type of caster negated the collide-o-scope somehow on their person and we simply haven't heard about it.
Ok, here's the thing, btw: if Charlie go pays a caster to spread I heard from x who heard from x who was there kind of information, there is no way to tie that caster OR the information to him. We have the perspective of knowing when and where a character is and what they know. The casters in the MK don't. You could pull any kind of nonsense out of your hat as long as you had a decent reputation and a plausible explanation to how you got it. The Great Minds became Charlie's enemies because Charlie directly revealed to someone information he shouldn't be able to access through any other means than capabilities the Great Minds don't want him to have. That's significantly different than Charlie paying casters who have no known ties to Charlie to say something that couldn't be directly refuted.
It boggles my mind you think Charlie, the information king, the person who tries to have his finger in every pie and use every dirty trick to do it, would not attempt to sneakily subvert the popular opinion of the Magic Kingdom. In fact, we know he has an excellent reputation there (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_2/25); what else is that but casters spreading information for him? It's not even beyond plausibility that the sole reason he hired some of those casters was to create that sort of reputation in the first place.So...you really think someone going "Hey, that dizzying spell thing that hit the entire Magic Kingdom (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/139)? Yeah, it didn't affect me. I saw Parson go into Transylvito's portal. No, no, there's no need to verify it, even though I know all of you are really interested in where Parson went. Especially not by you, Great Minds, who have access to some masters of Lookamancy which would in no way be able to tell if I actually saw anything!" would qualify as sneakily subvert, regardless of whether it worked or not?
And even assuming the casters in the Magic Kingdom are generally receptive for whatever reason....It's not like this would be a small rumor only five or six people without the means to verify any of it would care about. Parson's role in the big battle in the Magic Kingdom makes him a huge deal for the casters there. All sorts of casters who would want to find out the details...and if they don't look for answers on how the rumormonger knew, they would try to get some confirmation from Transylvito...to see if they could arrange for him to be brought for the trial, at the most benevolent claim. This leads to Transylvito hearing about it...and concluding that either Gobwin Knob or Vanna was responsible; and the Magic Kingdom has no little in the way of respect for Gobwin Knob, and Stanley wouldn't have anything to gain from leaking Parson's location anyway.
If Charlie's goal was to get rid of Vanna at any cost, with little regard for the chance of success, it might be a valid approach. :smalltongue:
What would Charlie have to gain by trying to spread this information around at this point, anyway? He already knows Parson is in Transylvito, what would spreading a rumor about Parson in the Magic Kingdom do that Transylvito trying to claim the bounty on Parson (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/161) wouldn't? That bounty is the "sneaky subversion" Charlie is trying, with much lower costs and much higher chance of success than this rumor mill approach.
Anteros
2016-08-06, 02:35 AM
That whole discussion was in regard to things that would happen after TV was destroyed by Parson if he went through with his columbine plan. It's obviously not in Charlie's best interest to leak Parson's location currently. TV reacting to it wouldn't matter because they would no longer exist.
Jasdoif
2016-08-06, 03:18 AM
That whole discussion was in regard to things that would happen after TV was destroyed by Parson if he went through with his columbine plan. It's obviously not in Charlie's best interest to leak Parson's location currently. TV reacting to it wouldn't matter because they would no longer exist.Oh is that why it didn't make much sense....
I still think the rumor mill approach has the same problems, but I don't think it'd be necessary. Caesar has a hat to Vinny, Bunny could possibly thinkagram Vinny (details on scroll availability are unknown, admittedly), and Vanna's still in the city and basically works for Faq through Charlie; Vinny and Jillian are perfectly situated to learn who took down Transylvito, and Jillian has been keeping in contact with other sides (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150). The knowledge that Parson took down Transylvito after invading their portal could get spread without Charlie needing to do a thing, or if he does need to tap intermediaries they can actually point at sources: Vinny and/or Jillian.
Which is stupid and incorrect as well. It might be true in a strategy game with 3 or 4 players, but in one with dozens? Far better to make an ally than to eliminate one enemy.
I'm not sure about that. A game with 2 players becomes a deathmatch. A ressource advantage or a single mistake then means the annihilation of one side. That is good if you want to be possible to win, but that is bad if you want to avoid your own annihilation. Winning is the highest priority in a game, not losing is the highest priority in reality, because it means avoiding your own death, the death of your friends and comrades, the end of your nation.
Aquillion
2016-08-06, 09:11 PM
I am not convinced that GK can take Charlie one-on-one (putting aside Fate shenanigans, of course.) So from their perspective taking out players who could be allies is a mistake.
Also, Parson probably isn't playing to an annihilation victory. I mean, I doubt he's thought ahead that far, but it doesn't seem to be in his personality.
HalfTangible
2016-08-06, 09:17 PM
I am not convinced that GK can take Charlie one-on-one (putting aside Fate shenanigans, of course.) So from their perspective taking out players who could be allies is a mistake.
Also, Parson probably isn't playing to an annihilation victory. I mean, I doubt he's thought ahead that far, but it doesn't seem to be in his personality.
Well, with the Juggle Elves, guns (albeit only for their ranged units) a fleet of Dwagons and Decryption, I'm sure they could, but whether they would or whether the risk would be worth it is another story entirely. Even ignoring the narrative aspects that'll prevent Charlie from falling for a long time.
Anteros
2016-08-06, 09:32 PM
Oh is that why it didn't make much sense....
I still think the rumor mill approach has the same problems, but I don't think it'd be necessary. Caesar has a hat to Vinny, Bunny could possibly thinkagram Vinny (details on scroll availability are unknown, admittedly), and Vanna's still in the city and basically works for Faq through Charlie; Vinny and Jillian are perfectly situated to learn who took down Transylvito, and Jillian has been keeping in contact with other sides (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150). The knowledge that Parson took down Transylvito after invading their portal could get spread without Charlie needing to do a thing, or if he does need to tap intermediaries they can actually point at sources: Vinny and/or Jillian.
Wouldn't Vinnie be dead in this scenario?
ryuplaneswalker
2016-08-07, 07:29 AM
I am not convinced that GK can take Charlie one-on-one (putting aside Fate shenanigans, of course.) So from their perspective taking out players who could be allies is a mistake.
Also, Parson probably isn't playing to an annihilation victory. I mean, I doubt he's thought ahead that far, but it doesn't seem to be in his personality.
As I stated before, Parson Can Not play to an annihilation victory, the rules of the setting do not allow for that, and the only way around that problem is being reliant upon Wanda to provide enough forces to take over the world. Remember, without conquering Jetstone Halfaton was coming up against the the diminishing returns really hard. To take over the continent would put you way past that point.
Yuki Akuma
2016-08-07, 07:57 AM
Well... honestly, he could play for an annihilation victory. He'd just need to not claim all of the city sites he conquers, and just raze them instead.
HalfTangible
2016-08-07, 08:03 AM
Well... honestly, he could play for an annihilation victory. He'd just need to not claim all of the city sites he conquers, and just raze them instead.
As I recall, it's possible for warlords to spawn into the world at random and claim a city site. We also know (given his nature and the narrative's direction) that an annihilation victory would not be acceptable to Parson even if it could be done. Stanley doesn't want an heir, but he did say (well, internally monologue) he had been planning to make new vassal sides; otherwise why groom Parson for one?
Yuki Akuma
2016-08-07, 08:07 AM
Oh, sure, Parson wouldn't, but there's no game mechanic that outright prevents him from trying it.
Arguing "Parson wouldn't do this because the rules won't let him" is just wrong, that's all.
HalfTangible
2016-08-07, 08:50 AM
Oh, sure, Parson wouldn't, but there's no game mechanic that outright prevents him from trying it.
Arguing "Parson wouldn't do this because the rules won't let him" is just wrong, that's all.
As I said, random warlords do spawn in the world; that's where most barbarians come from, as I recall.
Attempting to maintain a single world side would stretch the side's limits to the breaking point. As soon as a few of those warlords spawned and took cities for their own, you'd be stretched too thin to do anything about it.
eschmenk
2016-08-07, 01:06 PM
Well, with the Juggle Elves, guns (albeit only for their ranged units) a fleet of Dwagons and Decryption, I'm sure they could, but whether they would or whether the risk would be worth it is another story entirely. Even ignoring the narrative aspects that'll prevent Charlie from falling for a long time.
Huh? If you are sure they could, what would be the risk that might be too much?
I agree with Aquillion; I'm not certain that Parson would be sucessfull.
As I stated before, Parson Can Not play to an annihilation victory, the rules of the setting do not allow for that, and the only way around that problem is being reliant upon Wanda to provide enough forces to take over the world. Remember, without conquering Jetstone Halfaton was coming up against the the diminishing returns really hard. To take over the continent would put you way past that point.
An annihilation victory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_annihilation) doesn't involve taking over the world, so it's hard to see why diminishing returns would become such a problem.
HalfTangible
2016-08-07, 03:33 PM
Huh? If you are sure they could, what would be the risk that might be too much?
I agree with Aquillion; I'm not certain that Parson would be sucessfull.
The risk that Charlie has nukes, or that you DO lose the battle despite having a pretty good chance, or that your victory is pyrrhic.
There are ways to lose a battle other than actually losing it (see first book's siege engines) and could does not mean 'definitely will'
Jasdoif
2016-08-07, 04:37 PM
Wouldn't Vinnie be dead in this scenario?Hmm. It turns out I forgot the flat "fields units disband (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/110)" part of ending the side; when I wrote the post remembered the part about neutral cities and units outside cities (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/22), so I wasn't sure how it worked with Vinny being stationed in another side's city...But I have a hard time seeing any unit being a garrison unit for another side's city.
But Vinny being at Faq during the attack is still useful. "Jillian's envoy from Transylvito got a message about Parson attacking his capital before he fell with his side" is entirely possible, remains quite believable even if that isn't what actually happened, and Jillian would still be alive to point Magic Kingdom doubters towards. Jillian isn't a fan of Stanley (who originally took Faq from her) or likely Parson (who originally took Ansom from her, and Vinny would be added to the list in the scenario), she isn't going to cover for them.
eschmenk
2016-08-07, 08:29 PM
...and could does not mean 'definitely will'
*sigh* Only because you don't know if they would try and you left out part of your quote.
"...sure that they could" does mean that you are certain that they have the capability to do it, so no risk of failure. But that's apparently not what you meant to say, so fine.
HalfTangible
2016-08-07, 08:32 PM
*sigh* Only because you don't know if they would try and you left out part of your quote.No, I know full well they won't because the narrative won't allow for it.
"...sure that they could" does mean that you are certain that they have the capability to do it, so no risk of failure.
...No, it doesn't. 'Sure that they could' means 'certainly it's possible'. You're thinking of 'would'.
eschmenk
2016-08-07, 09:29 PM
...No, it doesn't. 'Sure that they could' means 'certainly it's possible'. You're thinking of 'would'.
Yes it does. "I'm sure that it's possible" also normally means that that that you are certain that the capability exists, so no reason to fail if they try. Otherwise why not simply say, "It's possible." No, I'm not thinking of "would." We both agree that they won't try.
Granted, context is important in figuring out how to interpret what is meant. Aquillion had said, "I am not convinced that GK can take Charlie one-on-one," so he wasn't certain that GK could succeed if they tried. Then he went on to say that Parson probably wouldn't try. It would be silly to say, "Well, with the Juggle Elves, guns (albeit only for their ranged units) a fleet of Dwagons and Decryption, I'm sure they could, but whether they would or whether the risk would be worth it is another story entirely" if all you meant to do was to agree with Aquillion that you can't be sure what the outcome would be and Parson probably wouldn't try. That's one reason I didn't interpret it that way. I understand now that's what you meant to do, though. Next time, you can just say, "I agree."
ryuplaneswalker
2016-08-07, 09:49 PM
Arguing "Parson wouldn't do this because the rules won't let him" is just wrong, that's all.
No, its not. Without Wanda you -can not- maintain a total annihilation victory. You will be stretched too thin to maintain enough forces at every capital site to prevent Barbarian warlords from popping and taking one, while we don't have explicit evidence that a Warlord Barbarian can start a new side, it is not a huge leap of logic, and would make sense given that Erfworld seems designed from the ground up to maintain a state of warfare considering the diminishing returns on capturing cities, and Spinning off sides is not a viable solution to that since those spun off sides can eventually betray it's mother side.
HalfTangible
2016-08-07, 09:52 PM
Yes it does. "I'm sure that it's possible" also normally means that that that you are certain that the capability exists, so no reason to fail if they try.
No, it's not :smallannoyed: "The capability exists" does not mean "victory is guaranteed"
And this is the last I'll say about it.
Next time, you can just say, "I agree."
I didn't.
Xihirli
2016-08-08, 11:33 AM
New text update.
So they're not doing the massacre thing. Hands who's surprised.
Also, Parson now knows a lot of the stuff the audience already saw.
DigoDragon
2016-08-09, 06:49 AM
Also, Parson now knows a lot of the stuff the audience already saw.
Yeah, he's finally catching up to us.
Jed is something else. A lot of things really, and I hope none of those is 'evil', cause he could conceivably take over the GK side through his manipulations. Quite a powerful building/unit thing that he is. XD
eschmenk
2016-08-09, 09:50 AM
Yeah, he's finally catching up to us.
Jed is something else. A lot of things really, and I hope none of those is 'evil', cause he could conceivably take over the GK side through his manipulations. Quite a powerful building/unit thing that he is. XD
I don't want to look for it, but I recall Parson worrying about Jed and asking Isaac for advice about it early in the chapter. If GK ever decides to make another city the capital, for example to make GK the capital again, I'd expect Jed to cause all sorts of problems. :smallamused:
I recall Parson worrying about Jed and asking Isaac for advice about it early in the chapter.
That was right after unraveling the link (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/059) to modify the tower.
If GK ever decides to make another city the capital, for example to make GK the capital again, I'd expect Jed to cause all sorts of problems. :smallamused:
I don't think that would be a problem - after all, Jed is lonely (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/170) right now :smalltongue:
Also, GK still has Unaroyal as a spare capital site.
I don't think that would be a problem - after all, Jed is lonely (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/170) right now :smalltongue:
Also, GK still has Unaroyal as a spare capital site.
Considering how useful Jed is, converting Gobwin Knob's other towers into Moai should be a top priority when all is said and done. Especially if they can link up the towers directly so they can send each other juice as needed.
DigoDragon
2016-08-10, 07:52 AM
I don't want to look for it, but I recall Parson worrying about Jed and asking Isaac for advice about it early in the chapter. If GK ever decides to make another city the capital, for example to make GK the capital again, I'd expect Jed to cause all sorts of problems. :smallamused:
I imagine (with Jed feeling lonely as it is) that moving the capitol site would only make him feel worse.
Considering how useful Jed is, converting Gobwin Knob's other towers into Moai should be a top priority when all is said and done. Especially if they can link up the towers directly so they can send each other juice as needed.
Maybe, but I believe it was said that Jed can't be ordered around like a normal unit can. He's powerful, and it would make sense to hold off on producing more until he's better understood.
HandofShadows
2016-08-10, 08:30 AM
The question is WHY is Jed lonely.
The question is WHY is Jed lonely.
He's the only sentient tower, duh. :smalltongue:
HalfTangible
2016-08-10, 09:54 AM
The question is WHY is Jed lonely.
Because the only person he talks to on a regular basis is Stanley.
And he's less Stanley's friend than his therapist.
eschmenk
2016-08-10, 10:35 AM
Considering how useful Jed is, converting Gobwin Knob's other towers into Moai should be a top priority when all is said and done. Especially if they can link up the towers directly so they can send each other juice as needed.
...and then the towers force Parson and Stanley to attack more cities and convert more towers and then they subvert Charlie's dish and take over all of Erfworld. And that's how finally there is peace on Erf. :smallbiggrin:
There is a part of me that would very much like to see the story start to go that way.
guttering flame
2016-08-10, 11:11 AM
Didn't Isaac tell Parson that Jed is a primadonna-like being who likes to be appreciated, nay, worshiped by its denizens and gets smug when it's fiercely fought over by different sides? A world populated by self-aware towers will be much like current Erfworld except the the towers will be cheering the armies from the sidelines like ladies bestowed their 'favor' in medieval tournaments.
HalfTangible
2016-08-10, 11:34 AM
Didn't Isaac tell Parson that Jed is a primadonna-like being who likes to be appreciated, nay, worshiped by its denizens and gets smug when it's fiercely fought over by different sides? A world populated by self-aware towers will be much like current Erfworld except the the towers will be cheering the armies from the sidelines like ladies bestowed their 'favor' in medieval tournaments.
Jed is capable of far more than cheering from the sidelines, though. He can send juice to Maggie, he knew about the Juggle Elves, he was aware of everything happening in his head. He's a very powerful being, and as far as we know has no more upkeep than a normal city's tower. That is absolutely worth getting more of.
guttering flame
2016-08-10, 12:13 PM
Jed is capable of far more than cheering from the sidelines, though. He can send juice to Maggie, he knew about the Juggle Elves, he was aware of everything happening in his head. He's a very powerful being, and as far as we know has no more upkeep than a normal city's tower. That is absolutely worth getting more of.
If GK creates sentient towers in Unaroyal and Goblin-Knob city, won't the towers fight over who gets to be capitol and how the side's resources are divided? I wouldn't risk it.
SZbNAhL
2016-08-10, 01:24 PM
I seem to remember Isaac (or was it another caster?) saying that Jed was some kind of unique unit, so they wouldn't be able to build more in their other cities. Don't have time for an archive binge right now, though.
eschmenk
2016-08-10, 01:43 PM
I seem to remember Isaac (or was it another caster?) saying that Jed was some kind of unique unit, so they wouldn't be able to build more in their other cities. Don't have time for an archive binge right now, though.
Are you sure they didn't simply mean that Jed was the first, so they had no prior experience with things like him yet, not that he had to be unique? In any case, Isaac didn't explicitly say so in the page linked to earlier.
The link:
That was right after unraveling the link (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/059) to modify the tower.
HalfTangible
2016-08-10, 02:06 PM
If GK creates sentient towers in Unaroyal and Goblin-Knob city, won't the towers fight over who gets to be capitol and how the side's resources are divided? I wouldn't risk it.
It's possible, but the cities are part of the same side, so perhaps they'd work together to protect themselves and each other. Jed would get someone to talk to.
SZbNAhL
2016-08-10, 06:43 PM
Wow, it seems I was hideously misremembering this page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/54). Please disregard my comments.
Jed is capable of far more ... He can send juice to Maggie, he knew about the Juggle Elves,
he was aware of everything happening in his head.
He can talk where-ever he has some face - so he is also a kind of a communication-center.
For now, it is not clear how this ability works, what range and limits it has,
and most importantly, if that communication is secure.
OTOH, while it is new, nobody is going to tamper with it.
Also, Jed as advisor/therapist for Stanley is simply priceless :smallbiggrin:
HalfTangible
2016-08-11, 02:05 PM
He can talk where-ever he has some face - so he is also a kind of a communication-center.
Is it wherever he has a face, or just the tower and any face inside it?
guttering flame
2016-08-12, 03:36 AM
Jed's plan to take over the world: Open a gift shop for authentic mugs. :smallcool:
HandofShadows
2016-08-12, 07:22 AM
Is it wherever he has a face, or just the tower and any face inside it?
Yes he is.
Mobius Twist
2016-08-12, 03:22 PM
Another all-drawn update. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/185)
And it's times like this that I wish for a faster update schedule, just to see what the very short blip of action amounts to later.
Near as I understand it, the original relocation of the moll out of the hallway took place some time ago during the transit to Maggie's cell.
If this ends up with Jack getting killed again...
DigoDragon
2016-08-12, 04:10 PM
If this ends up with Jack getting killed again...
Well, Parson and Jack are in chains being led by the doll. They could still play this to their advantage. No one knows that Maggie is controlling the doll, so Bill would be questioned. Parson could fake ignorance that he was just being a good little prisoner being led by a TV unit.
Maybe then shift the blame on Vanna trying to kill them for Charlie (cause spy)?
Xihirli
2016-08-12, 06:13 PM
Right, but unless they croak Vanna (a bad idea for a number of reasons) or hold her indefinitely, Charlie will soon find out that Parson is in Transylvito.
HalfTangible
2016-08-12, 06:15 PM
Right, but unless they croak Vanna (a bad idea for a number of reasons) or hold her indefinitely, Charlie will soon find out that Parson is in Transylvito.
Charlie already knows this; he knew it before sending Vanna to TV. The point of getting Vanna to play discovery theatre was to come up with a reason that Charlie would know that would be publicly available.
Douglas
2016-08-12, 06:15 PM
Right, but unless they croak Vanna (a bad idea for a number of reasons) or hold her indefinitely, Charlie will soon find out that Parson is in Transylvito.
He's known that for quite a while now. Or did you mean that he will officially have an explanation for how he knows?
Lethologica
2016-08-12, 06:16 PM
Right, but unless they croak Vanna (a bad idea for a number of reasons) or hold her indefinitely, Charlie will soon find out that Parson is in Transylvito.
Charlie already knows. TV already has strong suspicions that Charlie knows. And if we've learned anything from this stint in TV, it's that rational considerations only make one part of the decision process here.
Xihirli
2016-08-12, 06:53 PM
Okay, I get it. He already knew. But for he still wanted Vanna's confirmation. Now he'll probably get it.
HalfTangible
2016-08-12, 06:55 PM
Okay, I get it. He already knew. But for he still wanted Vanna's confirmation. Now he'll probably get it.
Not to be an ass about this but he already got Vanna's confirmation, too :smalltongue:
Anteros
2016-08-12, 09:13 PM
I don't think that's right. She is aware that TV has some prisoners, and may suspect that it's Parson, but she didn't have actual confirmation until now. Bill told her they did, but Don told her he was lying.
Douglas
2016-08-12, 09:20 PM
He might have already gotten enough to justify saying "Vanna told me of her suspicions", but that's not the same as being able to say without lying "Vanna told me Parson was definitely there".
Of course, Charlie's ideal scenario would be Transylvito telling him themselves to get the bounty, but his gambit for that has failed.
I did some archive binging and noticed a few things.
It think Charlie planted the idea of GK attacking the MKearly on, with Jojo as his agent. Here (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/55) GK troops have an independent caster under controll and publicly threaten to kil and raise him, as witnessed by a few other casters. I suspect Jojo forced this situation, and maybe used carneymancy on Count Downer to say the threat loud. Jojo is touching him, and Downer only a few panels ago was cautious about the situation becoming unstable. Warlady Artemis likely helped him a lot with her attitude.
Another thing: what are those little birds in the last panel (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/142)? They look like flaying dolls.
Kornaki
2016-08-14, 11:19 AM
I did some archive binging and noticed a few things.
It think Charlie planted the idea of GK attacking the MKearly on, with Jojo as his agent. Here (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/55) GK troops have an independent caster under controll and publicly threaten to kil and raise him, as witnessed by a few other casters. I suspect Jojo forced this situation, and maybe used carneymancy on Count Downer to say the threat loud. Jojo is touching him, and Downer only a few panels ago was cautious about the situation becoming unstable. Warlady Artemis likely helped him a lot with her attitude.
Another thing: what are those little birds in the last panel (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/142)? They look like flaying dolls.
I think that you might be onto something with that idea, nice catch.
As for the birds, they kind of look like pigeons. Stanley's got his hammer out and he looks bored, so it's maybe 50/50 that Stanley was whacking some stuff to see what kind of birds he made.
HalfTangible
2016-08-14, 02:35 PM
I did some archive binging and noticed a few things.
It think Charlie planted the idea of GK attacking the MKearly on, with Jojo as his agent. Here (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/55) GK troops have an independent caster under controll and publicly threaten to kil and raise him, as witnessed by a few other casters. I suspect Jojo forced this situation, and maybe used carneymancy on Count Downer to say the threat loud. Jojo is touching him, and Downer only a few panels ago was cautious about the situation becoming unstable. Warlady Artemis likely helped him a lot with her attitude.
Another thing: what are those little birds in the last panel (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/142)? They look like flaying dolls.
Jojo shouted the idea out back when Parson brought them in in book 2
Mobius Twist
2016-08-15, 04:08 PM
New update: Wheel of Morality, turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/186)
Doran
2016-08-15, 04:21 PM
Charlie (probably) still doesn't know they think Jillian is going to attack Transylvito with his forces.
Otherwise he'd come clean (or at least pretend) and tell Jillian to call Don and clear up what she's doing.
He really doesn't know of Parson's fallen Titan rumours about him.
I'm guessing Don might see the linkup as an attempt to corrupt his unborn heir towards Charlescomm, or even worse, speeding up the popping so the heir can take over when Jillian takes the city.
Kantaki
2016-08-15, 04:31 PM
Great. Charles is plotting again. I really hope it doesn't work. I mean the threat hidden in this "favour" is obvious, especially since TV should know about Kingworld.
So it might backfire. I hope it does. Charlescomm winning is boring.
The signamancy is interesting. The Wheel (of Fate) fits Charlie's desire to "spin" this situation (and his fate in general) to his favour. And Vanna's Magic of course. Fittlngly she seems to play the part of Fortuna (in variations). The only things that seems off are the sword and the scales. Aren't those usually associated with Justitia? Doesn't exactly fit the theme.
On the other hand it fits Charlie's modus operandi. To him everything- even justice- can be twisted in his favour.
HalfTangible
2016-08-15, 04:37 PM
Great. Charles is plotting again. I really hope it doesn't work. I mean the threat hidden in this "favour" is obvious, especially since TV should know about Kingworld.
So it might backfire. I hope it does. Charlescomm winning is boring.
The signamancy is interesting. The Wheel (of Fate) fits Charlie's desire to "spin" this situation (and his fate in general) to his favour. And Vanna's Magic of course. Fittlngly she seems to play the part of Fortuna (in variations). The only things that seems off are the sword and the scales. Aren't those usually associated with Justitia? Doesn't exactly fit the theme.
On the other hand it fits Charlie's modus operandi. To him everything- even justice- can be twisted in his favour.
Dunno what the first one is about, but given how Charlie's visions tend to shift and morph between one theme and another:
-Blindfolded woman: "I can't see how that could've gone any worse"
-Scales: Balancing different ideas, and leads off from the blindfolded woman because 'justice is blind'
-Vanna White: Clapping, and the wheel of fortune.
DigoDragon
2016-08-15, 04:46 PM
"Well, that's life." :smalltongue:
Well now that some cats are out of the bag, I think Don is not getting any more sleep this night.
"Well, that's life." :smalltongue:
Well now that some cats are out of the bag, I think Don is not getting any more sleep this night.
God, I wish this escalates already.
DigoDragon
2016-08-15, 05:11 PM
God, I wish this escalates already.
Yeah, at this point something needs to break. Everything is out in the open and there's no point dragging it out any longer. Time for fighting. :3
Anteros
2016-08-15, 06:02 PM
Yeah, at this point something needs to break. Everything is out in the open and there's no point dragging it out any longer. Time for fighting. :3
We say this every single arc lately.
New update.
Oh, gods no. Erfworld the game :smallsigh: It's already moving slow, so lets add a game that takes several years to make, to make webcomic even slower.
Yeah, at this point something needs to break. Everything is out in the open and there's no point dragging it out any longer. Time for fighting. :3
Hahahah [nervous laughter]
First thing happens their Vanna and Charlie link and reduce heir production by one turn; Then Don gets notified; Then Don and Charlie talk; Then we cut to FAQ; Then we cut to Jetstone; Then we cut to TV; then we cut to Haggar (because why the **** not); Then we cut to Don and Parson talk; Then we cut to Bunny and Parson talk; Then we cut to Bunny and Caesar; Then we cut the flesh; Then we cut to MK and Wanda trial; Then we cut to Jetstone; Then we cut to Bunny and Maggie talk; Then we cut to Don and Jill talk; Then we cut to fight.
Here is a hundred Shmucker prediction, no fight (think MK skirmish or similar)/escape happens for a month.
DigoDragon
2016-08-16, 07:30 AM
We say this every single arc lately.
Here is a hundred Shmucker prediction, no fight (think MK skirmish or similar)/escape happens for a month.
A Piker can dream! :3
But at the very least, with everything out in the open now, we can get into direct confrontations and negotiations.
Chromascope3D
2016-08-16, 10:21 AM
Me: *sees that they finally followed up a suspenseful comic page with another comic page* "Oh hell yeah." :smallsmile:
Me: *five seconds later* "Oh for f*ck's sake." :smallannoyed:
Me: *sees that they finally followed up a suspenseful comic page with another comic page* "Oh hell yeah." :smallsmile:
Me: *five seconds later* "Oh for f*ck's sake." :smallannoyed:
If guy that wrote McNinja wrote Erfworld, we'd probably see an uprising by now and we'd be well into book 4.
Anteros
2016-08-16, 07:36 PM
That's true, but Hastings is an excellent writer. It's a bit silly to say that considering his largest work is a silly piece about a nina doctor, but it's true. There's not many webcomic authors on his level.
That's true, but Hastings is an excellent writer. It's a bit silly to say that considering his largest work is a silly piece about a nina doctor, but it's true. There's not many webcomic authors on his level.
First replace Hastings with either: Ashley Cope, Neoricegood, etc.
Hastings is a good writer. Good, not great. Hastings isn't paid thirteen or fourteen grand for his webcomic either. I'm also not asking for impossible for Rob either - Book 1 had a similar pace.
Aquillion
2016-08-17, 09:38 PM
I don't know, I think Erfworld doing fine now. It's updating regularly, the art is decent, and while, yes, the story moves a bit slowly, that has always been the case (I remember complaints about this back in book 1, too.)
It's just how Erfworld is structured - it has always struck me as being written more with an eye towards the final book (which can be read all at once). If you read this chapter all at once, it'll be about 100 pages covering a decently-sized plot arc in heavy detail.
HalfTangible
2016-08-17, 10:17 PM
I don't know, I think Erfworld doing fine now. It's updating regularly, the art is decent, and while, yes, the story moves a bit slowly, that has always been the case (I remember complaints about this back in book 1, too.)
It's just how Erfworld is structured - it has always struck me as being written more with an eye towards the final book (which can be read all at once). If you read this chapter all at once, it'll be about 100 pages covering a decently-sized plot arc in heavy detail.
I think the point of contention is that a lot of the comic pages lately have been light on information. A page in book 1 I remember with some fondness was Ansom's outburst about royalty to Parson. That entire page was jam-packed with information, the establishment of the dark side of Royal ideas and Toolism, and character development. It even capped off with a joke.
Compare that to the 'Rubicon' page. All we really learned was that Vanna caught Parson and Jack on their way back. That's a bit of a plot shift, sure, but it's not a lot to chew on.
Not that I disagree with you - Erfworld's doing fine. I just see where the frustration is coming from.
Chromascope3D
2016-08-17, 11:26 PM
My only problem is that it seems like every time we get to some sort of action scene, he'll either intercut a text update into it which may or may not actually have any bearing on the scene (like in the Battle of the Magic Kingdom), or we'll skip straight to the aftermath without being able to actually see it unfold for ourselves (like just now). So, it's just kinda boring now. And while it's true that we are chugging along at a nice pace, at the same time, it feels like we're riding a kiddie train when we could be on a roller coaster.
...Not to mention that the art is the best that it's ever been and Rob really should be taking more advantage of that. :smallamused:
Lethologica
2016-08-18, 01:19 AM
In terms of pacing, this comic maps pretty well onto ASoIaF. Author got so caught up in moving all the pieces of his epic world-spanning plot just so that the overarching story bogged down completely. Events were still happening and we still learned plenty of stuff, but without a clear goal in mind.
Rob isn't a patch on GRRM for depth of worldbuilding, though.
In terms of pacing, this comic maps pretty well onto ASoIaF. Author got so caught up in moving all the pieces of his epic world-spanning plot just so that the overarching story bogged down completely. Events were still happening and we still learned plenty of stuff, but without a clear goal in mind.
Rob isn't a patch on GRRM for depth of worldbuilding, though.
That's like saying in terms of pacing ASoIaF maps well onto Iliad (which had several pages, just listing the characters involved, their father, grandfathers and titles) or a Babylonian stone tablet that lists granary stock.
But this isn't a new complaint...:smallsigh:
--------------------------------------------------
Who's excited about Erfworld THE GAME!!!!
DataNinja
2016-08-18, 09:59 AM
Who's excited about Erfworld THE GAME!!!!
I actually am, if only to see how it compares to all of the fanmade ones I've played over the forums.
DigoDragon
2016-08-18, 10:15 AM
My only problem is that it seems like every time we get to some sort of action scene, he'll either intercut a text update into it which may or may not actually have any bearing on the scene (like in the Battle of the Magic Kingdom), or we'll skip straight to the aftermath without being able to actually see it unfold for ourselves (like just now). So, it's just kinda boring now. And while it's true that we are chugging along at a nice pace, at the same time, it feels like we're riding a kiddie train when we could be on a roller coaster.
...Not to mention that the art is the best that it's ever been and Rob really should be taking more advantage of that. :smallamused:
Yeah, this chapter reads differently than previous ones. A lot more text updates advance the story now than comic pages.
Who's excited about Erfworld THE GAME!!!!
There's a game? o.o
There's a game? o.o
There will be. The team is apparently working on it, or preparing to.
Okay, we don't actually get asked that question very often, but I do get asked all the time "when is there going to be an Erfworld game?"
My answer has always been along the lines of "when we're ready, we're in no hurry." That was another way of saying, "when things are not completely on fire." Now that our financial, creative, and technical things are not on fire, it actually *is* time to begin working toward an Erfworld game.
I'm :smallsigh: underwhelmed.
Mobius Twist
2016-08-18, 11:38 AM
Who's excited about Erfworld THE GAME!!!!
Pretend there's a Venn diagram. One bubble is labeled "Hype." The other bubble is labeled "Undeserved hype." The third bubble is "Ultimately underwhelming." They ALL INTERSECT.
For the sake of your own wallet and sanity, please don't hype.
Anteros
2016-08-18, 11:40 AM
I'm sure the game will be perfectly fine for the people who buy it. Anyone willing to give Rob even more money for Erfworld at this point is enough of a fan to enjoy whatever he pumps out.
For the sake of your own wallet and sanity, please don't hype.
Who's hyping? I look forward to it the same way a dog looks forward to rabies injections.
eschmenk
2016-08-18, 02:31 PM
There's a game? o.o
The information was hidden in the middle of the latest blog update (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/50393/reds-move-we-need-help) about something else.
NEO|Phyte
2016-08-18, 03:27 PM
Assuming the game runs on the same mechanics we get glimpses into in the comic, it'll be neat for that aspect, even if the game itself is a hot mess.
Chives
2016-08-18, 10:12 PM
Assuming the game runs on the same mechanics we get glimpses into in the comic, it'll be neat for that aspect, even if the game itself is a hot mess.
It'd ruin the comic though. Most of the big twists are based on Parson exploiting the rules somehow. If we get access to those rules we'll be able to see the twists coming.
HalfTangible
2016-08-18, 10:30 PM
It'd ruin the comic though. Most of the big twists are based on Parson exploiting the rules somehow. If we get access to those rules we'll be able to see the twists coming.
Not necessarily. We've known about rules long before they are exploited in comic on several occasions. It's one of the things I admire about the comic, actually, and make it re-readable: you get rules put in front of you by Parson's notes, and often have relevance to the current situation (see prisoner rules at the start of book 3) but they aren't exploited until later.
First thing happens their Vanna and Charlie link and reduce heir production by one turn; Then Don gets notified; Then Don and Charlie talk; Then we cut to FAQ; Then we cut to Jetstone; Then we cut to TV; then we cut to Haggar (because why the **** not); Then we cut to Don and Parson talk; Then we cut to Bunny and Parson talk; Then we cut to Bunny and Caesar; Then we cut the flesh; Then we cut to MK and Wanda trial; Then we cut to Jetstone; Then we cut to Bunny and Maggie talk; Then we cut to Don and Jill talk; Then we cut to fight.
Here is a hundred Shmucker prediction, no fight (think MK skirmish or similar)/escape happens for a month.
Duuuuude, spoilers? :smallwink:
bout story progression, a few comparisons might be interesting. Alan Moore's Watchman has 448 pages. Erfworld book 1 has 150 pages plus epilogues, book 2 has 200 pages plus epilogues, book 3 so far 186 pages. A total count of 536 pages plus epilogues. The non-comic book 0 has 81 entries, with 1000-2500 words per entry; if I assume 1750 words on average that is a total of 141.750 words. It is about 2/3 finished. Homer's Iliad, which covers the story of Achilles within the Trojan war, has 147.317 words (English translation (http://de.feedbooks.com/book/2962/the-iliad-of-homer#)).
DigoDragon
2016-08-19, 08:16 AM
Assuming the game runs on the same mechanics we get glimpses into in the comic, it'll be neat for that aspect, even if the game itself is a hot mess.
I was under the impression it would simply be a mod for Civ V or something along that line of simplicity.
Xihirli
2016-08-19, 03:37 PM
New comic.
Aaaaaaaaaand, cutaway.
Kantaki
2016-08-19, 03:41 PM
Not much new information as far as I can tell, aside the fact that Links conceal the involved magic and that Jed kinda dislikes the fact that another Side messed with their Portal.
I'm not sure, I missed some recent updates and didn't pay that much attention when reading them. And the last time we saw something created via link has been a while ago, so I'm not sure if that info is old or new.
eschmenk
2016-08-19, 03:51 PM
Not much new information as far as I can tell, aside the fact that Links conceal the involved magic and that Jed kinda dislikes the fact that another Side messed with their Portal.
I'm not sure, I missed some recent updates and didn't pay that much attention when reading them. And the last time we saw something created via link has been a while ago, so I'm not sure if that info is old or new.
Charlie used a link with a nurse to treat Wanda's and Jillian's addictions. Jack talked to Parson about that, although I don't recall if he specifically mentioned the link with another caster. Jack definitely mentioned that Charlie was a Carny, though. The thing is that most of the rest of the GK units don't know. Bonnie wasn't even a GK unit yet, so she didn't know, except for whatever rumors she had heard. So it's not news to us, but it is to the characters who were talking.
Yuki Akuma
2016-08-19, 04:36 PM
So it turns out Casters can have the Archery Special. That's interesting.
New comic
Aaaaaaaaaand, cutaway.
By imitating a jumping bean, we maximize plot speeeed.
Chives
2016-08-19, 11:46 PM
By imitating a jumping bean, we maximize plot speeeed.
Well... This could have all been relayed to Parson third person. Just have him "zone out" for a second while Jed gives him a heads up.
Anteros
2016-08-19, 11:59 PM
Don't worry. We'll probably get a whole page of that too.
Chives
2016-08-20, 12:25 AM
Oh by the Titans no. I love Erfworld. I want it to go on forever, but not like this. There is a world of uncharted territory. Just kill Charlie and get on with it. (I was thinking space invaders for the fifth book, X-com style)
Well... This could have all been relayed to Parson third person. Just have him "zone out" for a second while Jed gives him a heads up.
Or just jump to discussion. Or jump to Sizemore in Carnivale.
I love Erfworld. I want it to go on forever, but not like this.
Wish granted. I guess.
Aquillion
2016-08-20, 02:36 AM
Not much new information as far as I can tell, aside the fact that Links conceal the involved magic and that Jed kinda dislikes the fact that another Side messed with their Portal.
I'm not sure, I missed some recent updates and didn't pay that much attention when reading them. And the last time we saw something created via link has been a while ago, so I'm not sure if that info is old or new.We learned a bit more. In particular, we know exactly what Jed thinks about carnymancy now - some people thought he might have been angry that GK wanted to cheat his portal; but it seems like his thought process is more along the lines of "if someone else is cheating, we're going to cheat right back at them twice as hard!" or the like, which makes him seem a bit more reasonable.
halfeye
2016-08-20, 07:47 AM
I wonder whether the name Jed is short for something, like Jedidiah, Jedburg, or somthing else beginning with "Jed"?
Mobius Twist
2016-08-20, 08:07 AM
I wonder whether the name Jed is short for something, like Jedidiah, Jedburg, or somthing else beginning with "Jed"?
We were there when he was named. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/58) It's short for "Jed the Head."
DigoDragon
2016-08-21, 07:14 PM
Just kill Charlie and get on with it.
Hmm, I was thinking that once Charlie was out of the picture the story kind of... well "ends". Or perhaps more specifically, Parson's story ends.
I suppose there are future Stupidworlders to abduct.
In particular, we know exactly what Jed thinks about carnymancy now - some people thought he might have been angry that GK wanted to cheat his portal; but it seems like his thought process is more along the lines of "if someone else is cheating, we're going to cheat right back at them twice as hard!" or the like, which makes him seem a bit more reasonable.
Yeah, it makes sense that a city is mad because an opposing city is cheating the rules by having a modified portal. That's kind of funny to think about.
Oooh, would that mean GK's previous capital is really Boopin' jealous it's not the capital city anymore?
ryuplaneswalker
2016-08-21, 07:22 PM
Hmm, I was thinking that once Charlie was out of the picture the story kind of... well "ends". Or perhaps more specifically, Parson's story ends.
There is the fight against the only enemy worth fighting that charlie spoke about.
SZbNAhL
2016-08-21, 07:45 PM
Hmm, I was thinking that once Charlie was out of the picture the story kind of... well "ends". Or perhaps more specifically, Parson's story ends.
That would be the completion of one of the prophecies around him, but he also needs to end all war and whatever it is the other two require of him.
HalfTangible
2016-08-21, 08:06 PM
That would be the completion of one of the prophecies around him, but he also needs to end all war and whatever it is the other two require of him.
If Charlie's defeat is the endgame, then it'll be the last thing Parson accomplishes in Erfworld. The other prophecies will be fulfilled before then.
Wayson
2016-08-22, 12:10 AM
If Charlie's defeat is the endgame, then it'll be the last thing Parson accomplishes in Erfworld. The other prophecies will be fulfilled before then.
Depends if Charlie is the biggest threat out there. I think we're all under the impression that Charlie is fighting Fate in some fashion (whether metaphorically or literally), and Fate is certainly moving heaven and erf to let Parson schwack Charlie. But what happens after Parson does? His utility is wrapped up and he may find himself fighting Fate, much as Charlie was.
I don't see Charlie as the ultimate Big Bad. He's a monster, yes, but I wonder if we really understand the stakes that everyone's playing for here. Parson certainly doesn't have the whole picture and if Charlie does he's not inclined to share.
HalfTangible
2016-08-22, 12:20 AM
Depends if Charlie is the biggest threat out there. I think we're all under the impression that Charlie is fighting Fate in some fashion (whether metaphorically or literally), and Fate is certainly moving heaven and erf to let Parson schwack Charlie. But what happens after Parson does? His utility is wrapped up and he may find himself fighting Fate, much as Charlie was.
I don't see Charlie as the ultimate Big Bad. He's a monster, yes, but I wonder if we really understand the stakes that everyone's playing for here. Parson certainly doesn't have the whole picture and if Charlie does he's not inclined to share.
Me neither but that was the assumption Digo started with.
DigoDragon
2016-08-22, 06:04 AM
Me neither but that was the assumption Digo started with.
Considering how integral Charlie is in Parson's story, defeating him doesn't seem like something that could be topped afterwards.
Anteros
2016-08-22, 06:24 AM
I don't see why not. All this Charlie stuff is (presumably) to show us that no matter how good you are at bending the rules that you can't beat Fate. Which will make it more interesting later when Parson has to go up against Fate himself.
It's a pretty boring story if the entire thing is just the protagonist being fated to win and the world rearranging itself so that can happen.
Aquillion
2016-08-22, 01:29 PM
I don't think Charlie's defeat will end the story. Honestly, he wasn't even the main focus in the first two books, just this one; and there have been plenty of hints of a larger danger and other things Parson will need to do, which don't seem that connected to Charlie.
DigoDragon
2016-08-22, 04:39 PM
It's a pretty boring story if the entire thing is just the protagonist being fated to win and the world rearranging itself so that can happen.
Well, Parson was fated to end war itself, so shouldn't it already be boring? :smallbiggrin:
Though nothing so far goes against war ending by the destruction of most of Erfworld (according to Jack's calculations I believe). Hmm, that would be a pretty gutsy way to take the comic.
Calemyr
2016-08-22, 05:02 PM
Well, Parson was fated to end war itself, so shouldn't it already be boring? :smallbiggrin:
Though nothing so far goes against war ending by the destruction of most of Erfworld (according to Jack's calculations I believe). Hmm, that would be a pretty gutsy way to take the comic.
Charlie strikes me as an Act 1 final boss. He represents the antithesis of Parson - an oddball whose entire continued existence hinges upon a perpetual state of global war. A strategic genius and inventive tactician specializing in the understanding of everyone else's understanding of the world and how to twist those assumptions into an advantage. He's a mirror-man, an inverse of the protagonist. The protagonist learns a great deal about themselves in this conflict by seeing where he contrasts with his enemy. Defeating the Act 1 final boss, however, doesn't end the war. It just escalates it.
Charlie has indicated in the past that this whole Royal Radish Coalition cs GK thing is, in truth, a drop in the bucket in the full scope of events, important to him more for its proximity than for it's impact on the world as a whole. And for Parson, who represents a threat to the status quo Charlie depends on.
So say that Parson brings Charlie down, somehow. Things change really quickly, because, while the world didn't care about RRCvG, it certainly notices the loss of Charlie. And so it begins to notice Parson, the man who changed the game. And if Stanley represents a slap in the face of royalty, Parson represents a perversion of the fabric of reality. Thus things continue to escalate after what should have been the final battle.
Kantaki
2016-08-22, 06:15 PM
Sounds like they have a plan. I'm not sure if it is a good one, but it should be entertaining.
And it seems as if Jed's... talkyness has some limitations regarding the presence of his creators in Spacerock? (Sizemore was involved right?) But on the other Hand he can talk despite Maggie's absence. Or he was doing something that required his attention. Calling Sizemore maybe?
Another Option is that he disliked the way Duke Antium talked about him and/or that Stanley tried to command him.
Aunt Edith says: Upon rereading that part it seems he is... tired/sleepy/something like that, so I guess he didn't ignore them because he was feeling grumpy, but because he needs rest and/or "food"(?).
Interesting. And possibly a reason not to create more of him.
Mobius Twist
2016-08-22, 07:02 PM
Seems to mean "Earth Observer" or "Ground Observer".
DigoDragon
2016-08-22, 07:09 PM
So say that Parson brings Charlie down, somehow. Things change really quickly, because, while the world didn't care about RRCvG, it certainly notices the loss of Charlie. And so it begins to notice Parson, the man who changed the game. And if Stanley represents a slap in the face of royalty, Parson represents a perversion of the fabric of reality. Thus things continue to escalate after what should have been the final battle.
On the plus side, anyone who had been screwed over by Charlie is a potential friend to Parson.
All the different factions start lining up into two camps.
Sounds like they have a plan. I'm not sure if it is a good one, but it should be entertaining.
The trick is figuring out at what point the hired Carney has stabbed GK in the back. Cause it sounds like it's a universal constant.
eschmenk
2016-08-22, 08:58 PM
Sounds like they have a plan. I'm not sure if it is a good one, but it should be entertaining.
I don't think it sounded like they have a plan. Bonnie had a proposal, but she didn't get buy-in. She needed to get Jed to confirm that it was Parson's idea, but Jed didn't do that. Sizemore will probably be against the idea, so Bonnie was trying to get approval before he showed up. She failed, so no plan so far.
Douglas
2016-08-22, 09:09 PM
I don't think it sounded like they have a plan. Bonnie had a proposal, but she didn't get buy-in. She needed to get Jed to confirm that it was Parson's idea, but Jed didn't do that. Sizemore will probably be against the idea, so Bonnie was trying to get approval before he showed up. She failed, so no plan so far.
In light of the theory that TV's new heir will be a Carnymancer, this failure could be designed as explanation for why GK waits the remaining 7 turns left to said heir's popping. Because really, none of the characters have any idea that such a development might be coming, and hiring a Carny to try fixing the guns is such an obvious thing to do that not at least considering it immediately would make the characters seem somewhat stupid.
Lethologica
2016-08-23, 12:13 AM
The trick is figuring out at what point the hired Carney has stabbed GK in the back. Cause it sounds like it's a universal constant.
At a guess:
The portal will allow unfriendly non-mages to get to Jetstone from the MK and Charlie will invade that way? Speculative but possible. Fits the "granting your wish is how we screw you" pattern.
ryuplaneswalker
2016-08-23, 02:17 AM
You know, I love the Tool sometimes.
At a guess:
The portal will allow unfriendly non-mages to get to Jetstone from the MK and Charlie will invade that way? Speculative but possible. Fits the "granting your wish is how we screw you" pattern.
Portal already does that. That is why MK is so anal about their rules. To prevent using MK as staging ground for assassinations.
Also why CC has a special chamber leading to portal door.
Also why Parson was able to enter TV.
DigoDragon
2016-08-23, 07:43 AM
Also why CC has a special chamber leading to portal door.
And now GK has a similar setup with the cage bars and locks. Prudent move though. No one can trust their portals anymore.
...I wonder if all portals collapse should the MK be conquered by a side?
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