Help me pick a spell for my trickster

[Chronos]

My Arcane Trickster rogue has reached 8th level, and so I am now looking for a new spell for him to learn. This being 8th, he can pick any wizard spell of 1st or 2nd level (probably 2nd), regardless of school.

Some background information:
He has the Ritual Caster feat. Currently-known rituals are Comprehend Languages, Find Familiar, Identify, Alarm, Illusory Script, Water Breathing, and Unseen Servant.
He has a staff that lets him cast Spider Climb and Web.
His current spells known are:
Cantrips: Friends, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion
1: Disguise Self, Grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2: Phantasmal Force, Invisibility
He's mainly motivated by the search for ancient secrets and lost relics.
The rest of the party consists of a paladin, a barbarian, a cleric, a wizard, a new character starting this week whose class I don't know yet, and sometimes a warlock.
Next level, he's going to be getting the Magical Ambush ability, which should make spells with saves a lot more reliable.

My first thought was Detect Thoughts. It would fit well with his love of hidden knowledge, and the party's been having some annoyance with interrogation of close-lipped enemies... but last adventure, the wizard used it, and that's not really a spell that benefits from multiple characters being able to cast it.

My second thought was Levitate, which can either be a utility spell to get to awkward places, or a combat spell to put a melee opponent on ice for a bit... but the utility use overlaps a lot with Spider Climb, which I already have and can't trade out.

Suggestion could also be used as a combat spell, and would also be useful with those interrogations, but it's an enchantment. I can learn those at any level, unlike the 8th-level spell which can be any school. In fact, I might just trade in Grease to learn it.

I'm also considering Misty Step, Alter Self, or Enlarge/Reduce, but none of those seem to do all that much, either, considering what I can already do.

[JumboWheat01]

Feather Fall is always a useful spell to have on hand. Who knows when your search for tombs to rob secrets to find will involve a big ol' pit.

Though my only real suggestion is if possible, manage to get Tenser's Floating Disk for your ritual spells. That's 500 pounds of stuff that you can loot rescue during your adventure.

[the secret fire]

What's his native AC? Does he often enter melee, or does he prefer to plink away from range?

Blur can be a devastatingly effective defensive spell if you've got a high native AC, though I'm guessing you don't. Web is a great 2nd level spell, but you've already got it. Flaming Sphere is a terrific spell for continuous control/low level damage - great for groups of mobs. Blindness/Deafness is also an excellent single target save-or-suck that doesn't require concentration. I'd go with one of those two.

If not, maybe Darkness or Fog Cloud for some control/area denial? But seriously, Flaming Sphere is probably your best bet here.

[CursedRhubarb]

Misty Step can be a great one for tomb explorers. Walk into a room where a grate slams beh8nd you and the ceiling starts to fall? *Poof* back outside the room! Fail that lockpick check to get into the treasure room? Look the keyhole and *poof* you're in! Caught looting and sent to jail where they found your lockpick and took them? Wait for the guard to leave and *poof* you're out!

[JumboWheat01]

I'm personally more of the *pfoof* crowd rather than the *poof* crowd, but Misty Step is indeed awesome. I find it more fun on a Wizard, though, because a Wizard can turn it into an at-will ability. And I can picture them using Misty Step to travel EVERYWHERE instead of walking, just because they can.

[Chronos]

His AC is 16, mostly from Dex. Decent, but not super-high. He does have a rapier, but mostly he uses his shortbow (in retrospect, I should have gone with a crossbow, but it doesn't make much difference).

Against groups, if they're threatening enough to use a spell on at all, I usually go with Web, and then just plink at them individually. The damage he does with any damaging spell is probably going to pale in comparison to what he can do with Sneak Attack. Also note that Flaming Sphere only damages creatures if they end their turn next to it (and why would they do that?), or if you ram it against a single creature.

I think the wizard already has Tenser's Disk, but hasn't yet found a situation to use it in: Our usual method of moving heavy objects is the half-orc barbarian (though we did come up with a harebrained plan involving Tenser's Disk, the barbarian, the gnome wizard, and a 10-foot-pole). My character would be happy to add it to his book anyway, but the wizard is less inclined to spell-sharing than he is.

The main reason I'm shying a bit away from Misty Step is that as a rogue, he already has plenty of things he can do with his bonus action, including moving quickly. That doesn't get him through barriers, but it's still a lot of overlap. We also already have a lot of that sort of capability in the party, so if needed, someone else can just bamf through the door and open it from the other side, or whatever.

Still, overall, it sounds like Misty Step might be the best option, here.

[SharkForce]

depending on what the party has access to, magic weapon could be a good choice. resistance or immunity to normal weapons can be a problem for any sort of weapon user... magic weapon can help overcome that. also, +1 to hit isn't a bad thing for a rogue by any means.

enlarge/reduce can have a lot of surprising uses... shrink yourself down so you can infiltrate through a mouse hole, enlarge the warrior so he can grapple huge monsters or knock them down, make a table larger so it holds the door shut (or enlarge the door so that it is jammed), shrink a boulder that is blocking your path, shrink the spinning sawblade so that it isn't sticking out of the floor and you can just walk past safely, enlarge a boulder you just shoved off a cliff onto your enemies so that it does more damage, enlarge the box an enemy is standing on so that it pins them to the ceiling (won't do damage, but it *will* expand to fill all available space, and pinning isn't damage), enlarge someone in your party so that they can step over small enemies or ignore negative status conditions, reduce an enemy so that they are subject to negative status conditions such as those inflicted by a battlemaster (and suffer disadvantage on strength checks and saves), reduce something so it's light enough to grab with your mage hand...

oh, and also it can provide a minor damage buff or debuff, i suppose. if you're into that sort of thing.

[Dizlag]

I'm thinking of Identify (1st level) as a spell you can pick up to go with your character's motivation of finding ancient secrets and relics. Although in the spell description it says things about if its a magic item you can know its properties. Very nice! But, you might be able to talk your DM into allowing you to divine information on mundane ancient artifacts or something.

Better yet, the 2nd level Locate Object spell as long as you're 1000 feet from it. This screams of an archaeologist character who wants to find ancient relics and secrets. Do a bit of research and learn of an object to make it a bit familiar to you and go from there.

Enjoy!

D

[Specter]

If your really want to profit from Magical Ambush, Blindness/Deafness is there for you. Otherwise, Misty Step.

[the secret fire]

I agree with you on the heavy overlap between Misty Step and Cunning Action. A precious 2nd level slot for an AT is a high price to pay for what Misty Step gives you.

The utility of Flaming Sphere is very party/campaign dependent. If you use a battlemap, it can be quite powerful. If you use ToM, less so. If you have front liners with crowd control abilities (Sentinel, etc.), it can be quite powerful. If not, less so. So it really depends.

Blindness/Deafness is still a quite useful spell. Why not go with that?

[JakOfAllTirades]

I don't consider any trickster's spell list complete without Suggestion, but there are different types of tricksters, so....

[Diebo]

I would consider shield. That +5 AC boost can be a life saver.

[the secret fire]

I would consider shield. That +5 AC boost can be a life saver.

Tricky spell to make good use of if you're doing something with both hands, which most rogues will want to do, and don't feel like paying the War Caster feat tax.

[Chronos]

The Shield spell doesn't require a free hand, but it does cover mostly the same ground as Uncanny Dodge. Granted, Shield will often make an attack miss entirely rather than just halving the damage, but it also doesn't always work, and Uncanny Dodge doesn't use a precious spell slot.

I already have Identify as a ritual, and the paladin has Locate Object (which is another spell that doesn't profit much from having two people cast it).

Blindness is a possibility, though I'm not too fond of single-target save negates (too much chance of wasting a slot and an action to do nothing), and I already have one of those (two, if I switch a spell to Suggestion). Still, it's based on a different save, and can't easily end early. So, possible.

Sharkforce, I think you're attributing a lot more to Enlarge/Reduce than what's there: It's a maximum of a factor of two, either way, so no mouseholes or the like. On the other hand, I hadn't fully considered the possibilities when applied to objects. That might be useful. And the paladin and barbarian already have magic weapons, and in a pinch my character can use that magic staff he has as a weapon, so Magic Weapon probably wouldn't be a big deal.

[the secret fire]

The Shield spell doesn't require a free hand...

Huh? If you don't have War Caster, it most certainly does due to the somatic component.

[Temperjoke]

The nice thing about Misty Step is not only for assistance with breaking and entering, it's pretty flexible, you can use it to get to anywhere that you can see. So if you have spider climb active, you could use it to teleport to the ceiling. It uses a bonus action, so you could finish off one enemy, use the bonus action to teleport to another enemy and cut them down. It's another 30 feet of movement to chase down an enemy with. Being chased? Use it to evade an enemy by teleporting to a roof, or through a window, or maybe lead them into a trap and escape with the teleport. It's got a lot of flexibility.

[Chronos]

Oh, right, somatic component. I was thinking to wield the shield.

In any event, though, my character usually has a free hand anyway.

[SharkForce]

The Shield spell doesn't require a free hand, but it does cover mostly the same ground as Uncanny Dodge. Granted, Shield will often make an attack miss entirely rather than just halving the damage, but it also doesn't always work, and Uncanny Dodge doesn't use a precious spell slot.

I already have Identify as a ritual, and the paladin has Locate Object (which is another spell that doesn't profit much from having two people cast it).

Blindness is a possibility, though I'm not too fond of single-target save negates (too much chance of wasting a slot and an action to do nothing), and I already have one of those (two, if I switch a spell to Suggestion). Still, it's based on a different save, and can't easily end early. So, possible.

Sharkforce, I think you're attributing a lot more to Enlarge/Reduce than what's there: It's a maximum of a factor of two, either way, so no mouseholes or the like. On the other hand, I hadn't fully considered the possibilities when applied to objects. That might be useful. And the paladin and barbarian already have magic weapons, and in a pinch my character can use that magic staff he has as a weapon, so Magic Weapon probably wouldn't be a big deal.

courtesy of 5e's lack of granularity in small sizes, going one size down from a halfling or gnome makes you tiny. which is the same as a rat. funny story, even a halfling can squeeze through a space sized for a rat thanks to those same rules, technically.

more practically speaking, a reduced small creature i would probably require to use the squeezing rules for very small holes. but even if there was a "fine" size category in 5e, you'd be able to squeeze in as a tiny creature. which is what reduce makes you if you're already small.

(if you're not already small, sorry for the misunderstanding... i had somehow gotten the impression that you were a halfling).

in any event, reduce can still allow you to get into spaces that are too small for your full size.

[Chronos]

You'd have a good point there, if the effect of the spell were just described in terms of size categories. But it says "half the size", so even a three-foot halfling would still be 18 inches tall. Besides which, my character happens to be human, so it'd just let him squeeze in the same places that the gnome can already. Now, we did have one situation where the gnome was the only one able to get into a tight space for an encounter, and it would have been nice to be able to give him some backup... except that the DM engineered that situation because he specifically wanted the gnome to deal with that encounter alone, and would surely have gone with some other method if needed.

I think I'm going to chat with the DM a bit about just what he'll allow with Enlarge/Reduce, and then go with either that or Misty Step.

[Joe dirt]

suggestion is arguably the most powerful 2nd level spell for thieves and tricksters... example: to rich merchant, (while disguised) "take my advice my friend, i suggest the best place to protect your most valuable loot is to bury it out side of town but tell no one of your treasure location or what you intend to do, not even a relative cause people talk"... then follow him with your familiar ritual spell and dig it up after he leaves, no fuss no mess

if he saves he is mad at the person you disguised yourself as and may need to run, if he fails then you get whatever loot the gm deems worthy.

but misty step is one of the most useful escape spells in the game. its bonus action teleport need i say more


so its between those 2 if u ask me and u did

[SharkForce]

he's already said he's considering suggestion, he just doesn't think it's his best choice to fill his extremely limited non-enchantment/illusion slot because he doesn't get a lot of options for those. suggestion is enchantment, so he can just learn it with a regular spell known.

[Toofey]

Edit: Sorry wrong thread

[Chronos]

So, funny story: I called up my DM and told him "I have a few questions about the scope of Enlarge/Reduce". "Hold on, let me look it up", he said. <sound of flipping pages> "No, I will not let you cast it on the entire planet."

It turns out that the spell doesn't actually specify a size limit for the object to be targeted, which means that, as written, it could target the planet. But after agreeing on a reasonable upper limit to houserule in, he agreed to enough that I decided to go with it.

He also reminded me that most of the enemies we're expecting to face in this adventure will be drow, which would get advantage on their saves vs. Suggestion, so I opted not to go with that at all. And it turns out to be a good thing that I didn't take Misty Step, because we've just found out that someone's been tampering with the Weave in some way to suppress planar magic, including teleportation effects and all summoning from or contact with the outer planes.