what are best uses for detect thoughts + disguise self?

[Joe dirt]

got sort of a conman wizard type was wondering if there are interesting uses for detect thoughts spell?

i was thinking since the target in this edition has the ability to know its mind is being probed that disguise self might be useful to protect your identity.

typical situations i can think it would be useful for would be

1 interrogation, ask leading questions and read mind for answers
2 my character is a conjuration wizard, so i will try to probe the mind of any guard to "see" the keys i would like to summon using minor conjuration ability... not sure if this would work but worth a try
3 use it for quick info if i think a fellow party member is being shady... this is PVP but our gm allows this
4 use it for blackmail reasons, find out who been sleeping with whom or find out NPC's darkest secrets, maybe someone murdered someone or stole something... might lead to fight, might not but if you have the right escape spells and disguise up you should be fine


any other ways u would suggest would be much appreciated

[bardo]

Detect Thoughts has V,S,M components. When you cast it people will see the S and hear the V. It's up to the DM to resolve how people react to a Wizard casting a spell next to them, but chances are the reaction isn't friendly unless you're pulling rabbits out of hats. I guess you could try to cast it at a private location and then run out and use what remains of the 1 minute duration on unsuspecting targets.

There's also a saving throw, a contested intelligence check, and the spell description states "the target knows that you are probing into its mind". So interrogation is the only feasible scenario, as most targets would turn hostile when they realise you're trying to probe their minds.

If you're interested in casting spells (not necessarily Detect Thoughts) without being noticed look at playing a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell.

Bardo.

[Bubzors]

Besides all the draw backs bardo pointed out, I would not allow number 2 in any circumstance. Are you telling me when you think of your house key you can perfectly remember every cut and angle? I'm going to venture that no you can't. I bet you don't even know the number of ridges. Not really feasible to be able to perfectly create a copy off a hazy memory

Though the other draw backs are significantly decreased by disguise self. They might be really angry at that guy who tried to read their thoughts, but if they are mad at what they think is a dainty elven woman and you are a stocky male dwarf, good luck finding you.

[CursedRhubarb]

The great thing about it is there isn't a save initially. You can read surface thoughts, our what they are currently thinking or focused on without them knowing. If you go deeper to look for information then they get the wisdom save. The reason this is great is that if you have it active and are talking to them or someone else is you would be able to tell if they lie or what the answer is if they don't want to say. Example: If you need to sneak into the keep you could ask a guard or servant "Boy this is a neat keep, bet there are all kinds of secret entrances huh?" And they would likely say there aren't any but if they do know any they would think of any they knew before saying so and just like that you have a way in other than the front, sewer, or trying to climb. The best way to avoid getting caught using it is to have another party member with high Charisma talk to them and ask questions while you hang out close and out of sight and listen in or subtle spell could work if you want to ask yourself but would be a bit more risky.

[borg286]

It is worth considering Mystic (enlightened) for the conquering mind discipline. This doesn't have the side effect of the target knowing you're forcing information out. A 1 level dip would only allow you to do this 2/day, it is probably good enough for your purposes.
It lets you make the target do an Int save or believe something about you or something he sees, and another power to answer a question. He'll probably be wondering why he's telling you something he normally would keep back, but pursuasion isn't that far off from the same results. Conquering Mind gives you proficiency in all cha skills btw.

[bardo]

If you need to sneak into the keep you could ask a guard or servant "Boy this is a neat keep, bet there are all kinds of secret entrances huh?"

The caster would need to find a safe place to cast unseen and unheard, then walk up to the guards and pop the question before the minute expires. It could be done in the right settings. Easier if another party member starts talking to the guards beforehand and pops the question as soon as the caster shows up.

Would guards get suspicious when strangers ask about secret passages? Would they later inform their superiors? Would their superiors double the guards for a few nights as a precaution? Who knows :)

Detecting surface thoughts is very open to interpretation. You might get confirmation that a secret entrance exists without a hint about its location, in which case you're getting the same information as rolling a Wisdom (Insight) check to see if the guard is being honest. To me the entire thing seems complicated, costly, risky, and probably not worth it.

Bardo.

[Joe dirt]

Surface thought are thoughts u think of currently would u think its acceptable to use the spell to cheat at say a card game by reading the other players surface thoughts.... assuming u had a way of casting without them knowing?