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Madokar
2016-07-19, 11:34 AM
Okay, so I need some pointers, because I'm in new territory. My half-orc paladin of Iomedae was arrested by the church of Abadar on trumped up charges of fraud. They say that since I didn't go through them when I started building my temple of Iomedae, I broke the law. But my purchase of the land was legal. They say I broke the law when I paid an additional sum to have to the construction crew speed up the actual construction with magic. They're calling it a bribe.

But then, I was racially profiled and thrown into solitary, because I matched an extremely vague description of a terrorist that's been attacking the city. A terrorist I have worked towards apprehending alongside the town guard. I have his skin tone, to be exact. That, and due to fey magic, I'm budding wings out of my back.

So... I'm at loggerheads over what to do. I mean, I am still a paladin. I haven't lost my abilities. I haven't committed the crimes they accuse me of. But when they arrested me for terrorism charges, I saw one of the commanding paladin pull a very smug and, dare I say, malicious look across his face.

I have another thread detailing what my relationship is with the Temple of Abadar, but I can't post it here. That's because I haven't been a member of this site for even a week. And I haven't reached the number of posts necessary to post links yet.

Freemason Than
2016-07-19, 12:10 PM
They say that since I didn't go through them when I started building my temple of Iomedae, I broke the law. But my purchase of the land was legal. They say I broke the law when I paid an additional sum to have to the construction crew speed up the actual construction with magic. They're calling it a bribe.

I can actually see the authorities' point here. Ownership of the land and what you can do with it are two different things.
Just because it's your land doesn't mean you can build whatever you want on it.

So the question is:
does the local law state that, if you have any temple construction business, you should run it by the Abadarians first?
Or are they just making that up out of a sense of entitlement?


Now, if they start bringing in false witnesses that claim they overheard you 'bribing' the construction crew, or any other fake reports that might link you to the terrorist you resemble, you should go full Phoenix Wright (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEQ0DLmVFr4) on them.

TheYell
2016-07-19, 12:15 PM
Cooperate with the authorities. Point out that the terrorist is still free to strike and if he does while you are locked up it will show you are innocent. accept this as a test of your paladin commitment. if you bust out against racist guards you could fall as a paladin because that is chaotic behavior. whos talking to you while in prison? be careful of being tempted to do anything unlawful.

Madokar
2016-07-19, 12:39 PM
I can actually see the authorities' point here. Ownership of the land and what you can do with it are two different things.
Just because it's your land doesn't mean you can build whatever you want on it.

So the question is:
does the local law state that, if you have any temple construction business, you should run it by the Abadarians first?
Or are they just making that up out of a sense of entitlement?


Now, if they start bringing in false witnesses that claim they overheard you 'bribing' the construction crew, or any other fake reports that might link you to the terrorist you resemble, you should go full Phoenix Wright on them.

We were clear in our intent from the beginning to build a temple. We sought out the proper, legal channels in the city to purchase the plot of land and develop it. The Abadarans have made it clear that it's the act of paying EXTRA to speed up the contruction with magic that they view as a bribe. Which makes little to no sense.


Cooperate with the authorities. Point out that the terrorist is still free to strike and if he does while you are locked up it will show you are innocent. accept this as a test of your paladin commitment. if you bust out against racist guards you could fall as a paladin because that is chaotic behavior. whos talking to you while in prison? be careful of being tempted to do anything unlawful.

Thing is, if word gets out that the Abadarans have captured the terrorist, then said terrorist is likely to lay low until I am executed. The Abadarans have made it clear that treason is a capital offense in this city.

As for potentially falling, my code clearly states that committing an EVIL act will cause me to fall. Not a Chaotic one. I can commit the occasional minor Chaotic act here and there if I remain solidly LG in alignment. My code does not allow evil to go unfought. If the law is broken, corrupt, or evil, I am not bound to follow it.

However, that is a worse case scenario. I planned to bring the message of Iomedae's valor and justice to this city. I can't do that if I become a wanted criminal for evading their warped laws. For now, I seek to play along with what they want. But if they abuse their authority, then I may have to consider more drastic options. I don't want it to come to that, though. Hence my post.

Madokar
2016-07-19, 12:47 PM
So I just hit the magic number of posts to be able to post links.So here's a link to another thread I made that gives a better sense of context of the situation with the Abadaran church in this campaign. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494725-The-Great-Law-Conundrum)

AlexandraNelsen
2016-07-19, 04:19 PM
What are the rest of the party playing? Not too sure about how your group usually works, but with my players their first instinct would be for everyone not in jail to commit an act of terrorism themselves to "prove" the terrorist isn't you. :smalltongue:

Even if your group aren't quite the murder hobos mine tend towards, the key may be to have the rest of the party look into that super sketchy Paladin Commander.

The only other thing I could add that may be relevant is to ask whether Zone of Truth is used during trials where you are.

Edit: Basically, I'm thinking this will be a matter of sticking to the truth, resisting temptation, and waiting for your allies to help you out.

Madokar
2016-07-19, 04:36 PM
What are the rest of the party playing? Not too sure about how your group usually works, but with my players their first instinct would be for everyone not in jail to commit an act of terrorism themselves to "prove" the terrorist isn't you. :smalltongue:

Even if your group aren't quite the murder hobos mine tend towards, the key may be to have the rest of the party look into that super sketchy Paladin Commander.

The only other thing I could add that may be relevant is to ask whether Zone of Truth is used during trials where you are.

Edit: Basically, I'm thinking this will be a matter of sticking to the truth, resisting temptation, and waiting for your allies to help you out.

The rest of the party is looking into hiring the Pathfinder equivalent of Phoenix Wright. We had a temple of Sarenrae established in the city too, but the Abadarans shut it down. Cited "health code violations" on the basis there was an undead disease in the temple. Which is bunk, since no undead have ever been in the temple or their victims. Of course, they told all of this after the Abadarans waterboarded the party priest of Sarenrae with holy water.

So yeah... Our priest of Sarenrae was allowed to go free after that, but they detained me.

veti
2016-07-19, 05:00 PM
So, apparently Abadar is a god of wealth?

Then it's possible that "paying someone an additional sum" is something they take an interest in. They might have added some weird laws to the city books about it. There may be issues of tax evasion or fraud that you're not aware of.

And it's more than likely that not only are some of the Abadarans on the take, but also that the church as a whole cares more about how much money they get, than exactly how they get it.

Seriously, your other thread explains that you set up your temple more or less explicitly as a rival to them? To root out suspected corruption? Well, what the hey did you expect to happen at that point, you thought organised crime was just gonna roll over and let you do your thing?

The rest of your party needs to either catch the real terrorist, or uncover absolutely conclusive evidence that he is (as I strongly suspect) not a real person at all, but a figure manufactured by some of the Abadarans specifically to discredit you. Meanwhile, does the city have any civil authorities that are independent of the Abadaran church? If so, I would see if you can get yourself transferred to their custody, because you don't want to Accidentally Cut Your Own Throat While Shaving one morning.

Keltest
2016-07-19, 06:12 PM
Sounds to me like this is the time to get the neighbors involved. Presumably this city isn't in the middle of bum nowhere, right? There are trade partners and the like who would probably be rather concerned that the city's proper authorities are being subverted and/or corrupted? Get yourself out of jail (take the trial seriously if it seems legitimate, but don't be afraid to break out if its clear that the rule of law is not presiding) and then find some allies you can trust. Get agents on the ground who can run interference while you go and investigate whatever leads you have. Maybe the church is corrupt or maybe its just really dumb, but either way its an obstacle that needs removing.

Madokar
2016-07-19, 08:42 PM
So, apparently Abadar is a god of wealth?

Then it's possible that "paying someone an additional sum" is something they take an interest in. They might have added some weird laws to the city books about it. There may be issues of tax evasion or fraud that you're not aware of.

And it's more than likely that not only are some of the Abadarans on the take, but also that the church as a whole cares more about how much money they get, than exactly how they get it.

Seriously, your other thread explains that you set up your temple more or less explicitly as a rival to them? To root out suspected corruption? Well, what the hey did you expect to happen at that point, you thought organised crime was just gonna roll over and let you do your thing?

The rest of your party needs to either catch the real terrorist, or uncover absolutely conclusive evidence that he is (as I strongly suspect) not a real person at all, but a figure manufactured by some of the Abadarans specifically to discredit you. Meanwhile, does the city have any civil authorities that are independent of the Abadaran church? If so, I would see if you can get yourself transferred to their custody, because you don't want to Accidentally Cut Your Own Throat While Shaving one morning.

There might be some obscure law tacked on somewhere. If it's just that, then it's not something to lose sleep over.

I didn't seek to establish my temple so much as a rival as an alternative for the people. I wasn't going to outright condemn the Abadarans if there was a chance of diplomacy and spreading Iomedae's message through charity work and peacekeeping efforts. But the more heavyhanded the Abadarans act, the more I suspect this chapter to be a predominately LE faith, or corrupted to be as such. I have no proof of that, so I'm not making accusations... yet. If I can definitively prove their corruption, then it's another story. If it's just them being Lawful Stupid, I just have to suffer them for the time being.

There is the town guard. We've been mainly working with them since the behaviour of the Abadarans started to worry me. It hasn't gotten to the point where the guard has to decide their loyalties, but I'm hoping that they value justice more than order.


Sounds to me like this is the time to get the neighbors involved. Presumably this city isn't in the middle of bum nowhere, right? There are trade partners and the like who would probably be rather concerned that the city's proper authorities are being subverted and/or corrupted? Get yourself out of jail (take the trial seriously if it seems legitimate, but don't be afraid to break out if its clear that the rule of law is not presiding) and then find some allies you can trust. Get agents on the ground who can run interference while you go and investigate whatever leads you have. Maybe the church is corrupt or maybe its just really dumb, but either way its an obstacle that needs removing.

Removing said obstacle was a point of us establishing our churches in the first place. Just a way to show the citizens of Halftown that there are other ways of life than the ones they have been accustomed to. If they so desire it. The idea was to just not have to deal with the Abadarans as much if we were able to build up our own forces to defend the city with. As it stands, we have some camaraderie with the temples of Desna and Erastil. But it's unknown if we have made enough of an impact with them to make those churches consider standing up to the Abadarans.

AlexandraNelsen
2016-07-20, 03:16 PM
Sounds like you might need to prep for a jailbreak if the trial goes badly. I'd suggest "hoping for the best, planning for the worst". The Abadarans seem to me like they are almost the law themselves, and if they're on the take I can't imagine the judge(s)/jury isn't. So with that in mind, I'd say your current lawyer plan is the best place to start. Maybe have a distraction or two set up around town in case they're needed.

The only other thing that comes to mind is whether or not Zone of Truth will be used during the trial. If it is used, then either you'll be easily proven innocent by virtue of actually being innocent, or you'll have confirmation that the system is silly amounts of corrupt.

Elvenoutrider
2016-07-20, 03:33 PM
Well you may have one other option - demand a trial by ordeal. This means that you are placed in a very difficult situation where you would need the aid of your god to survive. No sod would help someone who is guilty right? This existed in the real world for a time as a way for the church to quickly try and make an example of accused heretics. Demanding such a thing in the real world would be suicide though many rpgs take place in settings with direct interventionist Gods. Hell in pathfinder and D&D, a strong enough caster can gate to another plane and join them for tea or torture depending on your alignment.

A popular version of this would be a trial by combat where you or someone willing to stand for you fights the champion of your accuser. If there is a crooked paladin riding on his reputation attempting to convict you, he could be honor bound to fight you himself. In the process he could reveal that he no longer has access to paladin abilities thus outing himself as fallen.

Madokar
2016-07-20, 05:23 PM
Sounds like you might need to prep for a jailbreak if the trial goes badly. I'd suggest "hoping for the best, planning for the worst". The Abadarans seem to me like they are almost the law themselves, and if they're on the take I can't imagine the judge(s)/jury isn't. So with that in mind, I'd say your current lawyer plan is the best place to start. Maybe have a distraction or two set up around town in case they're needed.

The only other thing that comes to mind is whether or not Zone of Truth will be used during the trial. If it is used, then either you'll be easily proven innocent by virtue of actually being innocent, or you'll have confirmation that the system is silly amounts of corrupt.

Hoping for Zone of Truth myself, but these people believe I'm the one who has fallen. More or less. They'll know that I'd have a decent Will Save, and a good chance to ignore the spell's effects. If they do allow it, I'll see if my GM will allow me to intentionally fail the save.


Well you may have one other option - demand a trial by ordeal. This means that you are placed in a very difficult situation where you would need the aid of your god to survive. No sod would help someone who is guilty right? This existed in the real world for a time as a way for the church to quickly try and make an example of accused heretics. Demanding such a thing in the real world would be suicide though many rpgs take place in settings with direct interventionist Gods. Hell in pathfinder and D&D, a strong enough caster can gate to another plane and join them for tea or torture depending on your alignment.

A popular version of this would be a trial by combat where you or someone willing to stand for you fights the champion of your accuser. If there is a crooked paladin riding on his reputation attempting to convict you, he could be honor bound to fight you himself. In the process he could reveal that he no longer has access to paladin abilities thus outing himself as fallen.

I think my goddess has already blessed me. I can't say for sure, but I think my paladin is starting a transformation into an angel. He has a orange/bronze skin tone, budding wings coming out of his back, and few abilities that are in line with high level angels. Namely: Regeneration 5, Resist Acid 15, and a racial bonus of +4 to overcome poisons. Not counting a +2 bonus to STR and CON.

However, the Abadarans think I'm turning into a dragon for some reason. Despite me not having any of the hallmarks of dragonkind manifesting in my body.

Of course, I got all those benefits after I died three times. Once to undead, twice in the home plane of the fey. But that's what happens when you're the only dedicated melee combatant in a party comprised almost entirely of spellcasters. The other party members got bonuses too, but they're tailored to their class or how the story has affected them.

veti
2016-07-20, 05:37 PM
A popular version of this would be a trial by combat where you or someone willing to stand for you fights the champion of your accuser. If there is a crooked paladin riding on his reputation attempting to convict you, he could be honor bound to fight you himself. In the process he could reveal that he no longer has access to paladin abilities thus outing himself as fallen.

It would be rash to rely on that, however. It sounds like there's a healthy amount of homebrewing going on here, and you can't absolutely rely on a crooked paladin having lost their powers at all. Maybe they weren't ever a capital-p Paladin to begin with, but only a Fighter/Cleric - how would anyone else ever tell the difference?

Madokar
2016-07-20, 06:24 PM
It would be rash to rely on that, however. It sounds like there's a healthy amount of homebrewing going on here, and you can't absolutely rely on a crooked paladin having lost their powers at all. Maybe they weren't ever a capital-p Paladin to begin with, but only a Fighter/Cleric - how would anyone else ever tell the difference?

The Gray Paladin Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/gray-paladin-paladin-archetype) released with Ultimate Intrigue muddles the issue further, as it allows Paladins to be LG, LN, and NG in exchange for reduced divine power.

Sith_Happens
2016-07-20, 10:55 PM
If this society has really gotten as corrupt as you make it sound like it has then any legitimate self-respecting paladin has no obligation whatsoever to play along. You can sit around for a while if you want just to be on the safe side, but if it starts to look even a little too much like they're getting ready to rewrite the book just to be able to throw it at you then it's time for a jailbreak followed by a guerrilla campaign of truth, justice, and the Iomedean way.

Madokar
2016-07-21, 08:24 AM
If this society has really gotten as corrupt as you make it sound like it has then any legitimate self-respecting paladin has no obligation whatsoever to play along. You can sit around for a while if you want just to be on the safe side, but if it starts to look even a little too much like they're getting ready to rewrite the book just to be able to throw it at you then it's time for a jailbreak followed by a guerrilla campaign of truth, justice, and the Iomedean way.

I agree. I don't want it to come to that, but I agree. If I can find a way to use their own laws against them to acquit myself, I'd find that the ideal solution. But if they twist the law to suit their agenda with no regard to justice, then they will force my hand.

Herobizkit
2016-07-21, 11:39 AM
Sounds to me like the church of Abadar in your community is of the Lawful Evil type. They want 100% of the church income - they shut down a church of Sarenrae and now want to shut yours down, too.

Given that worshipers of Abadar are "Judges, merchants, lawyers, and aristocrats", I'd say you have little chance of defending yourself in this trial as it will clearly be an unfair one.

Would they accept a monthly tithe in exchange for rights to build a foreign church on "their" land? If not, your answer is clear - they oppose your faith and all others but Abadar. :)

Aside, I believe that"Real" courts would find testimony from Zone of Truth inadmissible as it is magical coercion (regardless of the outcome). Also, if there's a chance that ZoT condemns the plaintiff, they'll want it excluded anyway.

Madokar
2016-07-21, 02:22 PM
Sounds to me like the church of Abadar in your community is of the Lawful Evil type. They want 100% of the church income - they shut down a church of Sarenrae and now want to shut yours down, too.

Given that worshipers of Abadar are "Judges, merchants, lawyers, and aristocrats", I'd say you have little chance of defending yourself in this trial as it will clearly be an unfair one.

Would they accept a monthly tithe in exchange for rights to build a foreign church on "their" land? If not, your answer is clear - they oppose your faith and all others but Abadar. :)

Aside, I believe that"Real" courts would find testimony from Zone of Truth inadmissible as it is magical coercion (regardless of the outcome). Also, if there's a chance that ZoT condemns the plaintiff, they'll want it excluded anyway.

They allow other faiths to operate in the city. But I'm pretty sure that those faiths operate under the Abadaran's thumb. They followed the Abadaran rules, and most likely pay tithes. Though I can't say that for certain, nobody's ever mentioned having to pay tithes to the Abadarans as part of establishing a church.

That's a solid argument for throwing ZoT out the window. They seem the type to care more about procedure than truth and justice. Though maybe I just might have to request ZoT as part of my trial. Perhaps it's something the defendant has to consent to.

Madokar
2016-07-22, 11:14 AM
So I had a little brainstorm last night about something that could help me out. At some point, I should be able to take 20 on a Knowledge (religion) check, which would gain me a result of 31. When I do that, I can quote Abadar's holy texts, The Order of Numbers and The Manual of City Building. Here are some passages from Abadar's entry in the Inner Sea Gods sourcebook that might help me.

1) Abadarans are supposed to combat corruption and anarchy. They are supposed to understand both the letter and spirit of the law.

2) The priesthood is supposed to be responsible for encouraging civilization, trade and law by promoting co-operation and fairness. They are supposed to encourage being neighbourly as a means to enhance everybody's self-interest.

3) Their own service to the community may include pro-bono legal advice.

4) The local clergy are usually aligned with the local government but are forbidden to fight amongst themselves and often stand as a neutral faction during legitimate conflicts.

5) Abadar expects his followers to obey all meaningful laws, but not those which are ridiculous, unenforceable, or self-contradictory.

6) Abadar advocates cautious, careful consideration in all matters, and frowns on impulsiveness, believing that it leads to the encouragement of primitive needs.

It's my hope that someone, at some point, will hear these facts and reconsider what they have been doing in their service to Abadar. There are more facts in the sourcebook, but I think these six are most important.

Sith_Happens
2016-07-22, 12:08 PM
Except that you can't normally retry a Knowledge check which means you can't take 20 on it.

Madokar
2016-07-22, 02:07 PM
Huh. I never noticed that it was bard specific before. Mainly because I've never played those classes and wouldn't know the difference. And looking up the taking 10 rules, it's murky as mud. So I guess I'll just have to luck out if I want to use these facts. That, or I find some way to reference Abadar's holy books next session. You'd think that being under trial by Abadarans I would be allowed access to their laws and customs to defend myself.

Edit: Looking up the DC to know common mythology and tenets, I'd have to make a check of 15. I have a modifier of 11, so I have a solid 80% chance of making the check. Fingers crossed it works.

Acanous
2016-07-22, 04:00 PM
I'm curious, do you play at a store or in a house? It might be relevant.

Madokar
2016-07-22, 04:56 PM
I'm curious, do you play at a store or in a house? It might be relevant.

House. It's a homebrew campaign.

Sith_Happens
2016-07-22, 05:18 PM
Edit: Looking up the DC to know common mythology and tenets, I'd have to make a check of 15. I have a modifier of 11, so I have a solid 80% chance of making the check. Fingers crossed it works.

You can (usually) take 10 on Knowledge checks so you're rocking a guaranteed 21 if you so choose.

Madokar
2016-07-22, 05:34 PM
You can (usually) take 10 on Knowledge checks so you're rocking a guaranteed 21 if you so choose.

From my understanding, it's generally a house rule if taking 10 on Knowledge checks is allowed. So while I would definitely welcome it, I'm preparing myself for the possibility that I'll have to roll for it. If it comes to that, I still have good chances.

Sith_Happens
2016-07-24, 02:29 AM
From my understanding, it's generally a house rule if taking 10 on Knowledge checks is allowed. So while I would definitely welcome it, I'm preparing myself for the possibility that I'll have to roll for it. If it comes to that, I still have good chances.

Quite the opposite: Knowledge contains no exception to the normal taking-10 rules, which apply to all skills unless otherwise specified (compare to Use Magic Device, which does expressly prohibit taking 10 in all cases).

Madokar
2016-07-25, 10:38 PM
An update, for anybody interested:

So it turns out the magistrate is out to get my paladin. They held an auction for attorneys to have a chance to defend me. As it turns out, the winning bid belongs to a slimy SOB who told me to my face that he plans to prolong the trial as long as possible. Just to throw me under the wagon so he can write a tell-all book to further his career. One use of detect evil later, I promptly told him to go to the Abyss and requested to be sent back to solitary.

My first morning in the yard, a gang of half-orcs came to me, trying to sell me on a protection racket. I was polite and declined the offer. After the prisoners were called back inside, I was locked outside in the yard with two half-elf monks who told me there was still a bounty on my head for being "brought in dead". I was able to smite them and knock them out. The guards promptly threw me back in solitary, but not before I noticed them voicing their disappointment in the monks for "failing".

Next day, the same half-orc gang talked to me again. After some talking, it looks like I might have a chance to redeem them by leading by example. But for me to "join up", they want me to kill a pure-blooded orc prisoner that they claim to be a mass murder and skinner. My +19 to Sense Motive told me they were not telling the whole truth and I haven't agreed to it yet. But if I have to fight this orc, I think another use of Smite Evil and a charge of Divine Bond will be enough for me to knock the brute out. Hopefully, it will be enough to win over the half-orc gang.

On the other side of the walls, the Abadarans are trying to find evidence that our priest of Sarenrae is a lich, of all things. They shut down his temple to locate a phylactery that doesn't exist. On top of which, it turns out that mob mentality holds a lot of weight in Halftown. Which is why so many of our rights have been trampled. The town guard and the Abadarans say that they are doing the people's will, despite what they're doing being counterproductive to the citizenry's needs.

So our priest is trying to evacuate his flock from the city. The one good side is that the church of Desna has agreed to side with us, saying that the Abadarans are making no sense. The churches of Erastil and Torag might be on our side too, but we didn't have enough time in our session to speak with them. The Desnans think that if we can convince enough of the citizenry to side with us, we might get our convictions overturned. We managed to get a lawyer, but he was hired on to defend the Sarenites, not me. We might be able to take on both our cases, but the fact that he had to live under the radar in order to not be targeted by political enemies says a lot about how the law can work in this town.

Herobizkit
2016-08-03, 11:32 AM
Sounds like your DM has thought this out and is being totally reasonable. Reading your summary, I actually felt like I was reading a summary of any TV-worthy prison show.

Good luck in your Church 'turf war'. ;) Keep the Half-Orcs on your side - you'll want a group of toughs for the long haul.

Asmodean_
2016-08-03, 04:59 PM
If at all possible (I'm not too well acquainted with laws) try and get as many citizens to attend the trial as possible, then be as honourable and Good as possible (ZoT, etc.) so the public rally behind you. They'll no longer have the excuse of "we're just doing what the public wants".

And if your charisma's high enough, you can just defend yourself.

Madokar
2016-08-03, 07:26 PM
Sounds like your DM has thought this out and is being totally reasonable. Reading your summary, I actually felt like I was reading a summary of any TV-worthy prison show.

Good luck in your Church 'turf war'. ;) Keep the Half-Orcs on your side - you'll want a group of toughs for the long haul.

The magus wants me to try and redeem the half-orcs to be my new paladin order. They register a faint evil aura, so I'm actually leaning towards getting them to LN and make them inquisitors if I can.


If at all possible (I'm not too well acquainted with laws) try and get as many citizens to attend the trial as possible, then be as honourable and Good as possible (ZoT, etc.) so the public rally behind you. They'll no longer have the excuse of "we're just doing what the public wants".

And if your charisma's high enough, you can just defend yourself.

Do you think a base CHA score of 16 is high enough?

Sith_Happens
2016-08-03, 09:39 PM
Do you think a base CHA score of 16 is high enough?

Not against actual lawyers, at least by itself. If you've got good Diplomacy, on the other hand...

Madokar
2016-08-03, 10:13 PM
Not against actual lawyers, at least by itself. If you've got good Diplomacy, on the other hand...

I have a modifier of 9. It would be higher, but your gear gets confiscated when you're falsely imprisoned.

Asmodean_
2016-08-04, 05:05 AM
I have a modifier of 9. It would be higher, but your gear gets confiscated when you're falsely imprisoned.

Gee, how inconsiderate of them.

Sith_Happens
2016-08-04, 05:24 AM
More seriously, someone really needs to make sure that your stuff is still sitting in a box somewhere and the "authorities" haven't already taken any of it for themselves or sold it. Because that totally sounds like something these jerks would do.

Madokar
2016-08-04, 06:48 AM
More seriously, someone really needs to make sure that your stuff is still sitting in a box somewhere and the "authorities" haven't already taken any of it for themselves or sold it. Because that totally sounds like something these jerks would do.

Fortunately, I was able to pass along my weapons to my party members when the Abadarans came to arrest me, so those are safe. But my armour, shield, and all my wonderous items were taken. Including any potions and wands. If they stiff us on getting that stuff back, there will be... "words".

veti
2016-08-05, 09:29 AM
So I had a little brainstorm last night about something that could help me out. At some point, I should be able to take 20 on a Knowledge (religion) check, which would gain me a result of 31. When I do that, I can quote Abadar's holy texts, The Order of Numbers and The Manual of City Building. Here are some passages from Abadar's entry in the Inner Sea Gods sourcebook that might help me.

Sure, those might be helpful. But you'll need to be extremely careful in how you use them.

Specifically, don't try to lecture or harangue the Abadarans about their own faith. No matter what you get on your knowledge check, do them the courtesy of assuming that they know more about it than you do.

Also, Politics 101: you need to give your opponents the chance to change their minds without losing face. That means, don't try to back them into a logical or legal corner. Always try to ask questions that open up new options, rather than trying to close them down.

Also, don't (ever) assume your opponents are Lawful Stupid. There is a reason for what they're doing, and there is also, separately, a legal and religious justification for it. Your natural instinct is to challenge or undermine the justification; but if you can address the actual reason - which I'm guessing has a lot to do with the Abadaran's stranglehold on the city, its revenues and its patronage - the problem will go away much faster and more permanently.

What exactly is the penalty for the crimes you're charged with? What would happen if you plead guilty? Is plea bargaining a thing?

Madokar
2016-08-05, 10:15 AM
Sure, those might be helpful. But you'll need to be extremely careful in how you use them.

Specifically, don't try to lecture or harangue the Abadarans about their own faith. No matter what you get on your knowledge check, do them the courtesy of assuming that they know more about it than you do.

Also, Politics 101: you need to give your opponents the chance to change their minds without losing face. That means, don't try to back them into a logical or legal corner. Always try to ask questions that open up new options, rather than trying to close them down.

Also, don't (ever) assume your opponents are Lawful Stupid. There is a reason for what they're doing, and there is also, separately, a legal and religious justification for it. Your natural instinct is to challenge or undermine the justification; but if you can address the actual reason - which I'm guessing has a lot to do with the Abadaran's stranglehold on the city, its revenues and its patronage - the problem will go away much faster and more permanently.

What exactly is the penalty for the crimes you're charged with? What would happen if you plead guilty? Is plea bargaining a thing?

Good points I will try to keep in mind for next session.

The Abadarans have made it clear that acts of "treason" is a capital offence. I know this since they tried executing an unconscious member of the cult that's been attacking the city whom the party was able to capture. The same cult they accuse me of leading. So pleading guilty will bring forth the headman's axe.

Madokar
2016-08-08, 10:35 PM
Update Time:

So it turns out that it's not so much the Abadarans giving me grief as the Magistrate of Halftown. Investigations this session revealed that the Magistrate put pressure on the Mayor. The Mayor gave an order to Belphina, the guard captain. Belphina signed a warrant for my arrest. The Abadarans executed it. And now the Abadarans are having mixed feelings about it all. As it turns out, the lower ranking members of the faith are uncomfortable with the whole issue of shutting down a church of Sarenrae on baseless charges, and especially with throwing a paladin into prison without actually charging him with anything.

Also, the Magistrate did this more or less so they can have ammunition for the next mayoral election. They want one of their own running the city. And what better way then to get the public on their side by saying they are the ones responsible for capturing the terrorist that's been attacking their city. Most likely they did this to try and shift blame off themselves, since there is some evidence of the nobility having ties to the terrorist cult in the first place. It sounds like something nobles would play in their "power games".

Bringing the Magistrate's actions into the eyes of the Abadarans on the fence has put said Abadarans on our side, and those few are willing to pull their weight with their congregations to try and persuade the public to oppose my treatment. This is in addition to the party getting the Churches of Desna, Erastil, and Torag on our side as well, with those churches promising to do the same with their flocks.

Our priest of Sarenrae was also able to cast Commune and ask Sarenrae nine questions about our situation. She confirmed that some of the Magistrate and the Abadarans are corrupt. So it's definitely shaping up to be a case of some of the nobility getting ambitious to both make me a patsy to take the heat off of themselves and achieve their goals.

The rhetoric people are giving is that I am safe in prison from the citizenry that desire revenge on the cult for the loss of their loved ones. Thing is, I wouldn't need protecting if the magistrate hadn't declared me the terrorist solely based on my appearance. Also, I am a high enough level that I can use nonlethal force against the average NPC without difficulty. So I don't really need protecting.

In prison, I've made the decision to not ally with the half-orc gang. A use of Detect Evil revealed that while the half-orcs are only registering faint evil auras, the pure-blooded orc they want me to attack doesn't register as evil AT ALL. A day of talking with said orc has revealed that he's been alone for a long time and has given up on society and relationships in general. I'm hoping that just by being his friend I can make his life better.

One of the guards trying to deny me meals, but I wasn't too proud to not eat the food he spilled on the floor. I waited until he left to eat, but when he came back and noticed that I had eaten the food, he formed an opinion of me. I don't care for that opinion, but harassing a guard does not work out well in prison when you're the prisoner.

On another note, this is the same guard who bribed the half-elf monks to attack me in the yard. Apparently, he has lost someone to the cult, and he feels that I "deserve" this treatment. While I disapprove of guards abusing their charges, I can't hate the man.

Asmodean_
2016-08-09, 03:45 AM
On another note, this is the same guard who bribed the half-elf monks to attack me in the yard. Apparently, he has lost someone to the cult, and he feels that I "deserve" this treatment. While I disapprove of guards abusing their charges, I can't hate the man.

This is the best way to do antagonists - people taking out revenge and/or thinking what they're doing is the morally right way to go. Kudos to your DM.

And as has probably been said before, the main reason people want you there is as a scapegoat. That guard might not truly believe you're the terrorist, but repaying the terrorist's actions certainly feels good. If the rest of the party went out to get the real terrorist, then the guard would stop being petty, the magistrate would lose most to all of his credibility and you'd be home free.

Madokar
2016-08-16, 06:16 PM
Update time again. Depending on how it plays out next session, this might be my last update on the issue.

Okay, so it's been a mixed bag this week. The church of Sarenrae had their time in court. While we could prove that the government more or less extorted us in regards to their "financial advice" on establishing a church, the judge didn't see it as making a difference. In his eyes, we still bribed a city official to build our temples, even though said official left us no other alternative to pay an extra fee to expedite the construction. Don't rightfully know if that makes sense, is lawful stupid, or just insane troll logic. The church of Sarenrae is off relatively light, though. They just have to pay a fine.

As for my paladin, he got a new lawyer. Said lawyer got my paladin relocated out of prison solitary (where he was being denied meals for a period due to the previously mentioned guard with a bias against him) and into the Temple of Abadar where he was placed in more or less a hotel room. Not the level of the Ritz, but leagues better than a solitary cell in prison.

Then the trial was announced. We might have a better chance here than with the temple disputes, because the prosecution's evidence is paper-thin. At any rate, we got the good-aligned churches and some members of the Temple of Abadar to give us support. The party only wants one church head to serve as a witness for us, so we're going with the Church of Torag. We chose them because my paladin has done some retraining with them before. Personally, I would like to get as much testimony in our favour from the churches as possible, but the group thinks that might be overkill.

Our priest of Sarenrae cast Commune again, and we have some new information. It turns out my transformation is not angelic in nature, but some form of evil. It hasn't affected my alignment or class abilities yet, and Sarenrae says that there is no urgency to undo the changes. But even more important than that, she said that we have been trusting the wrong person. It turns out that Belphina the Guard Captain is not an ally. With that revelation, our party bard headed out to track her down, see if he could find any dirt on her.

That got him kidnapped and taken to the docks. After the rest of the party went and rescued HIM, he revealed something bad. Belphina is in league with a wererat guild that has recently established itself in the city. The very wererat guild that has been acting as suppliers for the cult I'm accused of leading. She gave them intel on city schedules, and then shapechanged. That was when the bard was caught and knocked unconscious, so he didn't see what Belphina was changing into. But she's not your average halfling, that's for sure now.

Madeiner
2016-08-16, 07:01 PM
Wow, i stumbled upon this post by chance, but i must say that your story sounds amazing.
Your DM must be REALLY good and i'm kinda jealous now :D

Madokar
2016-08-23, 05:44 PM
Once again, update time.

So my trial got turned into a "trial". In that my attorney said that since I was a paladin, I could not be the terrorist attacking Halftown. The judge and the Abadaran official bought it, so they cast Geas-Quest on me so I could "prove" that I was a real paladin. Now I have three days to clear out a desecrated temple of Pharasma that is overrun with undead. The very same temple that nearly spelled TPK the first time we tried clearing it out. Because there are incorporeal undead in there that do energy and ability score drain with their touch attacks.

The difference is that now we're lvl. 9 instead of lvl. 5. So we have better gear, abilities and more money. We were allowed a day before the Geas-Quest activated so we could prepare ourselves for the temple. We should be solid, but it's about 50-50 on if we're going to get out of this unscathed. We stocked up on holy and anti-ghost equipment, but no guarantees even with all of it at our disposal.

The goal of the Geas-Quest is to find the altar of Pharasma that has been desecrated and consecrate it again. We were able to find some of the Pharasmin Order that was forced to flee the temple when it was attacked, and a cleric has come with us to cast the consecration, as nobody in the party is a worshipper of Pharasma. We're keeping him in the portable hole so he doesn't come to harm before we reach altar. For some reason, the Pharasmins in this city are not strong enough to repel an undead attack, which is disconcerting.

We flew to the temple via putting most of the party in a portable hole and the Shaman casting Overland Flight on himself. As we drew close, the Shaman noticed an army of skeletons guarding and farming materials from the forest surrounding the temple. Knowing that worse things awaited us deeper in the temple than the skeleton army that greeted us, we cast Hide from Undead to prevent raising an alarm.

And if the undead weren't enough, there was a young red dragon in the temple. Why, we don't know. The skeletons are ignoring it, and the dragon was ignoring the skeletons. We had to call it a night after we struck down the dragon and accounted for it's hoard.



Well you may have one other option - demand a trial by ordeal. This means that you are placed in a very difficult situation where you would need the aid of your god to survive. No sod would help someone who is guilty right? This existed in the real world for a time as a way for the church to quickly try and make an example of accused heretics. Demanding such a thing in the real world would be suicide though many rpgs take place in settings with direct interventionist Gods. Hell in pathfinder and D&D, a strong enough caster can gate to another plane and join them for tea or torture depending on your alignment.

A popular version of this would be a trial by combat where you or someone willing to stand for you fights the champion of your accuser. If there is a crooked paladin riding on his reputation attempting to convict you, he could be honor bound to fight you himself. In the process he could reveal that he no longer has access to paladin abilities thus outing himself as fallen.

So that's where my trial is as of now. It looks like an earlier suggestion to have a "trial by ordeal" is what's happening. But the courts of Halftown are calling it a "trial of righteousness". Either way, it's most likely a death sentence for the unprepared.

Sith_Happens
2016-08-23, 05:56 PM
Sounds like you need to stock up on Restorations somehow.

Madokar
2016-08-23, 07:17 PM
Sounds like you need to stock up on Restorations somehow.

We've got some wands of Lesser Restoration, and the Shaman can prepare and cast Restoration by this point. So we've got that covered. Fingers crossed that our supplies of the stuff hold for the temple, though.

Madokar
2016-09-13, 11:34 AM
It's been a few weeks since my last update, and we're still in the damn temple. We've overcome four Dracolisks and four Black Puddings by some sort if divine grace. One of the Dracolisks managed to petrify our Shaman of Sarenrae to boot, so we were without our major healing source for half a session. We were able to brew a potion of Stone to Flesh, but the Shaman failed the FORT save to avoid a heart attack from the shock of becoming flesh again. So he died.

Fortunately, I had a pair of First Aid Gloves on, so I was able to cast Breath of Life and brought him back. That unlocked the full benefits of my Story Feat from my character creation, Deny the Reaper. Now the party members get a +2 to saves against Death effects if they are within 10 feet of my paladin.

A Black Pudding managed to grapple me on a Nat 20, but between my Acid Resist 15 and a very lucky REF save, my paladin avoided getting his equipment destroyed. He then grappled the damn pudding and dropped it, before continuing to smack it around until it died with his magic morningstar.

We've cleared out most of the temple, but between the dragons, dragon hybrids, and the oozes, one thing's clear. This temple doesn't just have an undead problem. Because as we were clearing out the temple, we came across a trap door. Which connected to a cavern filled with webs. And five Driders. We might have a connection to the Darklands underneath the temple. Which according to the Pharasmin priest we're escorting, wasn't there before.

This temple turning out to be one giant deathtrap.