Pathfinder Spontaneous Crafter

[TorqueSpec]

I took it upon myself to make a guide that is the fruit of my endeavors to make a "Spontaneous Crafter." I hope someone will find some use in this guide. I also hope to spark a little discussion on some of the nuances of crafting, specifically regarding spontaneous casters.

Here it is: {https://docs.google.com/document/d/1glYivptIqcGBiSF7XP82QsXK1SfGbaGpUb_Tsb8VXP8/pub}

(The boards will not allow me to linkify the post. Copy and paste as needed. Apologies.)

[Gnaeus]

Very very dubious here.

Brew potion is the worst crafting feat in the game, bar none. The witch getting it at level 1 with a feat is not several levels ahead of the oracle, because the oracle should never take brew potion. Pretty much the only crafter who should is the alchemist. Scribe Scrolls is better (at least your cost is lower per spell, and you can make scrolls of lots of personal effects you can't make potions of). But really, for most characters, even crafting characters, the crafting begins at level 3 with Wondrous and continues with either wands or armor/weapons at 5. Any potions your party truly needs, and there shouldn't be many, because mostly they are too expensive for what they do, can be bought.

How can you talk about crafting witches without discussing Valet Familiar??? The familiar can cooperatively craft with you, doubling your crafting. It knows your feats, so it can craft without you while you are adventuring. And their aid another is a free +2, way better than blowing a feat on skill focus. Crafters who don't get familiars are still much much much better off spending a feat or even 2 to get a familiar than skill focus. The only reason you want skill focus is for Knowledge Arcana so that you can steal the Arcane sorcerer bloodline to get a valet familiar.

You should always ask your DM if you can buy a masterwork tool (a book) for spellcraft (crafting). RAW legal, RAI legal, and many DMs will allow it. If so, you just saved yourself a feat for 50 gp.

[TorqueSpec]

Very very dubious here.

Brew potion is the worst crafting feat in the game, bar none. The witch getting it at level 1 with a feat is not several levels ahead of the oracle, because the oracle should never take brew potion. Pretty much the only crafter who should is the alchemist. Scribe Scrolls is better (at least your cost is lower per spell, and you can make scrolls of lots of personal effects you can't make potions of). But really, for most characters, even crafting characters, the crafting begins at level 3 with Wondrous and continues with either wands or armor/weapons at 5. Any potions your party truly needs, and there shouldn't be many, because mostly they are too expensive for what they do, can be bought.

How can you talk about crafting witches without discussing Valet Familiar??? The familiar can cooperatively craft with you, doubling your crafting. It knows your feats, so it can craft without you while you are adventuring. And their aid another is a free +2, way better than blowing a feat on skill focus. Crafters who don't get familiars are still much much much better off spending a feat or even 2 to get a familiar than skill focus. The only reason you want skill focus is for Knowledge Arcana so that you can steal the Arcane sorcerer bloodline to get a valet familiar.

You should always ask your DM if you can buy a masterwork tool (a book) for spellcraft (crafting). RAW legal, RAI legal, and many DMs will allow it. If so, you just saved yourself a feat for 50 gp.

Brew Potion is not efficient gold-wise, but it allows you to distribute spell effects and improve action economy by having other characters perform the casting. Also, bear in mind the goal of the piece. This assumes that you can't walk down to the local Magic Mart and pick up a potion. There's no reason to craft if you can simply buy anything in the book to begin with. Scrolls are absolutely out of the question for any spontaneous caster. You have more than enough slots for a day, and scrolls can only be made if you already know the spell. They are FAR better off in the hands of a prepared caster. For a witch to cast spontaneously, you have to lose your familiar, so that's a moot point. +2 to craft (aid another) vs +3/+6 to craft (SF(spell craft)) seems just as dubious, especially considering you have to give up 2 feats to get the +2. I understand the uses of a valet familiar, but that is not the right comparison to make. The real benefit of the valet familiar is the doubling of gold cost toward item completion, which is a valid point to make. Also, the valet CANNOT craft for you. They have "virtual feats" for the purpose of using the Cooperative Crafting feat. They don't actually have the feats.

[Gnaeus]

Brew Potion is not efficient gold-wise, but it allows you to distribute spell effects and improve action economy by having other characters perform the casting. Also, bear in mind the goal of the piece. This assumes that you can't walk down to the local Magic Mart and pick up a potion.

As you point out, there are a lot of crafting feats, and no one can take them all. If you are your party's only crafter, and you took brew potion instead of craft arms/armor or craft wands, your party should fire you and replace you with someone who knows how to do their job. I suppose in a game with retraining it might not be awful to take it at level 1 and then retrain it when you hit 3.


There's no reason to craft if you can simply buy anything in the book to begin with.

I want to take away your right to make crafting guides for this statement alone. Crafting can functionally double your WBL. It also lets you make expensive or custom items that you can't just buy in a typical village, unlike virtually any potion.


Scrolls are absolutely out of the question for any spontaneous caster.

No. Going from your assumption that Magic Mart is not available, scrolls of CLW are your best healing item at low levels (actually, infernal healing is better, but you may not have access). But more importantly, being a spontaneous caster does not mean that you are the only person in the party who can read scrolls or cast spells. Out of the 11 base classes,only 4 do not have spell lists. Only 3 of 9 non core base classes, and 3 of 10 hybrid classes. And even of the muggles, about 1/3 will be UMD monkeys who will ultimately want access to spell effects that don't come in a bottle. The party's other casters/semi casters will be happier buying scrolls than potions of low level effects. If your party is Spont Witch or oracle, Monk, Fighter, Barbarian, there might be an argument that potions beat scrolls. But if your party is THAT, you have bigger problems.


And for a witch to cast spontaneously, you have to lose your familiar, so that's a moot point. +2 to craft (aid another) vs +3/+6 to craft (SF(spell craft)) seems just as dubious, especially considering you have to give up 2 feats to get the +2. I understand the uses of a valet familiar, but that is not the right comparison to make. The real benefit of the valet familiar is the doubling of gold cost toward item completion, which is a valid point to make.

+6? how does +6 help you on a crafter? You point out that generally what you are aiming for is a +17 to hit 27 while taking 10. You don't get that +6 until you have 10 ranks in spellcraft. Even a casual crafter will have spellcraft in class. By level 10, you should have a minimum of 10 ranks, +3 class, +2 familiar, +1 int, +1 trait =27 (note: among other incorrect advice, you can't legally take both theoretical magician and hedge magician, since they are both magic traits). So by the time the feat gives +6, you should already be at the point where it does not matter. If you somehow miss the mark, say by having 10 int or needing another trait, a headband of Int (which you will only wear on crafting days) is a way better than throwing away a feat on Skill Focus. And all this assumes that a spellcraft tool has been vetoed. AND you are suggesting it on an int focused witch, which is just lunacy. If the witch can't hit crafting DCs with skill ranks, int mod and in class skill bonus alone by level 10, your witch is extremely suboptimized.

Also, the valet familiar is way better than +2 and crafting doubling. It can make items itself while you are busy. It can make items with other party crafters. Many kinds have hands or voices, so they can use items themselves, improving your action economy. It can probably also aid another, providing +4 not +2. + all the normal familiar benefits like scouting, skill support, etc.

Let me just add that taking extra hex: cauldron at level 1 is not something I recommend as either a crafter or a player who loves witches. There is a good reason why no guide lists it better than orange. Most other witch hexes will protect party members better. Even healing, which is a dog with fleas, is better than 4 potions of CLW/day (because healing is a downtime activity, the healing hex heals 1d8+CL which is better than 1d8+1, and that saves 100 gp/day). Ward, Misfortune, Evil Eye, or Slumber are all also much better choices.

Basically, other than explaining some DCs and pointing out a few good traits which the guide incorrectly suggests you can take together, this guide is an important source of misinformation which will lead crafters into trap options.

[Psyren]

Here it is: {https://docs.google.com/document/d/1glYivptIqcGBiSF7XP82QsXK1SfGbaGpUb_Tsb8VXP8/pub}

(The boards will not allow me to linkify the post. Copy and paste as needed. Apologies.)

That's only because you're new - in an effort to prevent spam, posters cannot post links until they reach a certain number.

Here's your URL as a hyperlink: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1glYivptIqcGBiSF7XP82QsXK1SfGbaGpUb_Tsb8VXP8/pub

If I can summarize, your guide appears to center around the following trick:

1) You are a spontaneous caster and thus have limited spells known.
2) You want to make a wand, potion or scroll of {spell you don't know.} Normally you can't do this, even in PF. However, you can make Wondrous Items that would otherwise require spells you don't know by raising the DC.
3) Page of Spell Knowledge is a Wondrous Item. Possessing this item will let you treat the new spell as if it were a spell known.
4) Using the crafting rules, you make a PoSK of {spell you don't know} and stuff it into your back pocket. Now you know that spell and can use it to make {potion, wand or scroll.}

The rest of the guide consists of ways to pump your crafting check for Step 4.

Is that correct?

[Gallowglass]

Also, the valet familiar is way better than +2 and crafting doubling. It can make items itself while you are busy. It can make items with other party crafters. Many kinds have hands or voices, so they can use items themselves, improving your action economy. It can probably also aid another, providing +4 not +2. + all the normal familiar benefits like scouting, skill support, etc.






Able Assistant (Ex)

A valet's master treats the valet as if it possessed the Cooperative Crafting feat and shared all Craft skills and item creation feats he possesses.






Cooperative Crafting


Your assistance makes item crafting far more efficient.

Prerequisites: 1 rank in any Craft skill, any item creation feat.

Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items. You must both possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.

I've never used a valet familiar, so I had to go look it up because I've seen it used as you suggest so many times on the forum. But it sure looks like it can't natively craft by itself or craft with another party member.

I guess it could actually take the craft feats itself when they come online?

[Gnaeus]

I've never used a valet familiar, so I had to go look it up because I've seen it used as you suggest so many times on the forum. But it sure looks like it can't natively craft by itself or craft with another party member.

I guess it could actually take the craft feats itself when they come online?

Huh. I guess it is a case of bad wording. It says the master treats the familiar as if it had the feats and cooperative crafting, but not that it has the feats for the purpose of cooperative crafting. Quick forum check suggests no official ruling and some debate.

So, without going too far into it, let me rephrase to: The familiar can at least provide +2 (cooperative crafting) and double your crafting speed, and take its own actions and provide normal familiar benefits, but may also provide an additional +2 (aid another) and be able to craft independently depending on DM or future ruling.

Its still better for a dedicated caster type than skill focus (spellcraft) and brew potions put together.

[Barstro]

.
4) Using the crafting rules, you make a PoSK of {spell you don't know} and stuff it into your back pocket.

From the SRD
"creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page"

Does that not prevent the entire scheme?

EDIT: Shown to be incorrect.

[Zanos]

From the SRD
"creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page"

Does that not prevent the entire scheme?
Pathfinder crafting requires a spellcraft check. For +5 to the DC, you can waive any prerequisite other than the crafting feat itself.

[TorqueSpec]

That's only because you're new - in an effort to prevent spam, posters cannot post links until they reach a certain number.

Here's your URL as a hyperlink: {https://docs.google.com/document/d/1glYivptIqcGBiSF7XP82QsXK1SfGbaGpUb_Tsb8VXP8/pub}

If I can summarize, your guide appears to center around the following trick:

1) You are a spontaneous caster and thus have limited spells known.
2) You want to make a wand, potion or scroll of {spell you don't know.} Normally you can't do this, even in PF. However, you can make Wondrous Items that would otherwise require spells you don't know by raising the DC.
3) Page of Spell Knowledge is a Wondrous Item. Possessing this item will let you treat the new spell as if it were a spell known.
4) Using the crafting rules, you make a PoSK of {spell you don't know} and stuff it into your back pocket. Now you know that spell and can use it to make {potion, wand or scroll.}

The rest of the guide consists of ways to pump your crafting check for Step 4.

Is that correct?

Pretty much, yeah. I've had players want to use crafting as a means of getting around the lack of immersion from a Magic Mart popping up like a lemonade stand in the woods (underground, in the Abyss, etc.). I combined what help I've given them with my own preference for spontaneous casting. I figured someone might get some use out of the work I did for that lol.

[Barstro]

I agree, but I think that what I quoted is a specific trumping a general; given the word "must" (like the stone familiar crafter must be a witch). But, I may be wrong.

EDIT: Was wrong.

[TorqueSpec]

among other incorrect advice, you can't legally take both theoretical magician and hedge magician, since they are both magic traits
Good catch. Thanks!

[TorqueSpec]

I agree, but I think that what I quoted is a specific trumping a general; given the word "must" (like the stone familiar crafter must be a witch). But, I may be wrong.

Anyone can craft a stone familiar. The crafting rules have been FAQ'd (even post UE) that ANY and ALL requirements that are not the crafting feat can be waived by adding a +5 to the DC per requirement. The example they give is for the Boots of Elvenkind which state the creator "must be an elf."

[Barstro]

Yeah, I read the SRD again. I need to remind myself that "must" has a different meaning in d20 than my legal statutes.

Thank you for clarifying for me.

[TorqueSpec]

Also, as a general point to Gnaeus:
Potions are suboptimal from a "gold-focused" perspective. They have an inflated cost because they allow non-casters to use them without help and without UMD. That alone makes them worthwhile for general adventuring parties. Moreover, the Witch's Brew hex is the only way that I know of to get around the "1 item per day" rule, making them more valuable. I'd rather only pay for the shots of enlarge person that I know I'll use than pay for 50 up-front. It's more valuable in most instances to have the caster give you the ability to use the spell than to have to "belly up" every time you need a buff.

[TorqueSpec]

I've never used a valet familiar, so I had to go look it up because I've seen it used as you suggest so many times on the forum. But it sure looks like it can't natively craft by itself or craft with another party member.

I guess it could actually take the craft feats itself when they come online?

The familiar would need a caster level. I don't know how or when it would qualify for those, nor when it would gain a feat slot to take the feat. Familiars don't gain HD, just use your HP as a basis for their own, IIRC.

[Psyren]

From the SRD
"creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page"

Does that not prevent the entire scheme?

I'm looking at Page of Spell Knowledge and I don't see this line, where is it from?

[TorqueSpec]

I'm looking at Page of Spell Knowledge and I don't see this line, where is it from?


Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page ; Cost 500 gp (1st), 2,000 gp (2nd), 4,500 gp (3rd), 8,000 gp (4th), 12,500 gp (5th), 18,000 gp (6th), 24,000 gp (7th), 32,000 gp (8th), 40,500 gp (9th)

There ya go, Psyren.

[Psyren]

There ya go, Psyren.

Ah, gotcha - yes, as you stated, this is a non-feat requirement that can be waived for Wondrous Items.