DM help balancing crossbow master.

[RavensLand]

I'm starting a new homebrew campaign tonight with a party of four. One of them is a constant power gamer and has told me her current plan for her character.
Starting level one she's using a variant human ranger with the crossbow master feat using a hand crossbow. So out of the gate she's taking two attacks a turn. I don't like to neuter a players choices to artificially make encounters harder but I'm concerned about it overtaking the other players.

My only idea right now is to abuse cover so she hits less often but she's taking the archery style later so that will become less effective soon. She wants to take hoard breaker at three but that's as easy as not grouping enemies up too often. At four she's taking rogue into assassin archetype do you guys think her damage will start to peter out after that unless she's sneak attacking?

[Flashy]

I sincerely doubt it's going to be a problem considering she'll have the exact same damage output as if she had picked up a pair of shortswords, just with a 30' range increment. It'll be strong, but not outside the norms of play.

[Diebo]

She'll be picking up sharpshooter to ignore cover and trade for -5 to hit for +10 damage soon. With advantage, archery, and no cover penalties, those will likely hit. Level 3 Ranger for Horde Breaker, Level 3 Assassin, then probably back to Level 4 Ranger for ASI (Sharpshooter) then Level 5 (for bonus attack), then Level 4 Rogue for ASI. That build will do decent damage, but a barbarian with a great axe and great weapon master will be doing some pretty serious damage too, as will a 5th+ level magic user or sorcerer with fireball.

The bonus attack for sharpshooter uses a bonus action, iirc, which would compete with cunning action/hide.

Make her follow rules for tracking lost/broken bolts, and situations where they run away and can't retrieve them. Hand crossbows are rare, finding bolts for them would likely also be rare.

Later game, you consider teasing her with a +1 magic (normal) crossbow.

Personally, as a rogue I would prefer my bonus action went to hiding, disengaging, or dashing.

[Traziremus]

It removes the "loading" quality of the crossbow, does not make the bolts appear loaded from out of nowhere. You still have to use your both hands to load it, so any weapon in the other hand would prevent you from loading the crossbow. She would get two attacks only if the crossbow is loaded, and as I mentioned before you need a free hand to reload any ranged weapon.

It is a cool feat if you want to play a crossbowman as you can pick up a melee weapon and strike someone in melee and then as a bonus action shoot them in the face so you can continue using crossbow and stay true to your crossbowman "fighting style".

[Z3ro]

One of my friends played a nearly identical build, except he went ranger five/assassin the rest. It did some pretty decent damage, especially very early on before most of the rest of the party got up and running. But by the time he got to level 8, he was basically in-line with the GWM fighter. And, frankly, the assassinate wasn't even that big of a deal, as he still needed to succeed at sneaking; if he had a melee weapon, the results would've been basically the same.

Starts strong then fades; if that's a big issue then consider changes. Kind of in the same boat as shapeshifting druid in that way.

[Jarlhen]

Remove the bonus attack. Or modify the bonus attack so that it can't benefit from sharpshooter -5/+10 and you can't get the +dex damage on the bonus attack without the dual wielder fighting style or feat (or perhaps dueling is more appropriate). That would put it in line with dual wielding but still let her benefit from stuff like hunter's mark. It would also be a heavier investment (having to take multiple fighting styles and stuff) to fully utilize compared to just using a regular bow without just blowing everything else out of the water. It is easy to justify that the bonus attack is done with such haste there is no time to utilize sharpshooter and your aim is off that without proper training you won't get the +dex either.

My group has removed the bonus attack entirely putting h.crossbows in line with regular bows as there is literally 0 reason for why they should be better (which they are with that feat).

[Quintessence]

Remove the bonus attack. Or modify the bonus attack so that it can't benefit from sharpshooter -5/+10 and you can't get the +dex damage on the bonus attack without the dual wielder fighting style or feat (or perhaps dueling is more appropriate). That would put it in line with dual wielding but still let her benefit from stuff like hunter's mark. It would also be a heavier investment (having to take multiple fighting styles and stuff) to fully utilize compared to just using a regular bow without just blowing everything else out of the water. It is easy to justify that the bonus attack is done with such haste there is no time to utilize sharpshooter and your aim is off that without proper training you won't get the +dex either.

My group has removed the bonus attack entirely putting h.crossbows in line with regular bows as there is literally 0 reason for why they should be better (which they are with that feat).

They are only better if you stay at 30 range... The advantage of other crossbows is actual ranged attacks. The hand crossbow with crossbow feat is a risk vs reward thing.

[uraniumrooster]

I have a player that uses essentially this exact build in a game I'm running, and I don't find it unbalanced. There's a lot of competition for that Bonus Action, between casting/moving Hunter's Mark, using Cunning Action, and the Crossbow Expert bonus attack, so in most combat encounters they will only get off a couple of extra shots. They can do pretty decent damage, but they're also fairly squishy in light armor with no shield (especially considering their first ASI was spent on Sharpshooter, so their Dex won't increase until level 8, possibly later if they want to get an extra attack first). They're effectively a martial glass cannon, with some non-combat utility from thieves' tools and expertise. The GWM Battlemaster in the group does comparable damage and can also tank, and the spellcasters have better flexibility from AoE, crowd control, buffs/debuffs, utility spells, etc. I wouldn't worry about your player overshadowing the rest of the group... she's got a niche build that will excel at ranged damage, but there's still plenty of room for the others to shine.

Also, an easy tactic I've used against this build (that doesn't feel like an intentional, meta-gamey counter) is to just have enemies charge into melee with the character. It will force your player to use her Cunning Action to disengage, so no extra attack, no hiding or dashing, and no Hunter's Mark. If she doesn't disengage, there's a decent chance she'll take some damage.

[Demonslayer666]

Fighting with two weapons requires you to use melee weapons. So if you want to be strict, she can't do it using ranged weapons.

From the SRD:


Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.

[Sabeta]

Fighting with two weapons requires you to use melee weapons. So if you want to be strict, she can't do it using ranged weapons.

You don't need two weapons. TWF specifically says "different weapons", but Crossbow Expert does not. As long as you have a free hand you can fire it indefinitely.

I plan on running a Rogue 1/Battle master X build similar to this when I get the chance. Gaining Sneak Attacks seems worth a 1 level dip, but I've never cared too much for Assassinate.

[EKruze]

I'm starting a new homebrew campaign tonight with a party of four. One of them is a constant power gamer and has told me her current plan for her character.
Starting level one she's using a variant human ranger with the crossbow master feat using a hand crossbow. So out of the gate she's taking two attacks a turn. I don't like to neuter a players choices to artificially make encounters harder but I'm concerned about it overtaking the other players.

My only idea right now is to abuse cover so she hits less often but she's taking the archery style later so that will become less effective soon. She wants to take hoard breaker at three but that's as easy as not grouping enemies up too often. At four she's taking rogue into assassin archetype do you guys think her damage will start to peter out after that unless she's sneak attacking?

I don't think you'll need to worry about her overtaking the rest of the party.

Sharpshooter's power attack shot is antisynergistic with sneak attack dice and Hunter's Mark. When these are on the line the downside from a miss is increased which increases the relative cost of that -5 to hit.

Other people have pointed out that this build is far from guaranteed advantage. Hunter's Mark, Cunning Action and Crossbow Expert will all be competing for bonus actions. When she hides she'll only have Advantage on her first shot which further limits her Sharpshooter opportunities. Moreover as a Variant Human she'll be somewhat limited by her lack of Darkvision.

Flipping classes at level 3 will significantly delay her ASIs which will mitigate the effect of her Archery Style. By the time she's enabling her Assassinate a straight fighter will have his Extra Attack on line. By the time she's grabbing Sharpshooter the same fighter will have his primary attack stat filled out. When she's finally getting her ASIs in order the fighter will have his third attack on line. It should balance out.

[Traziremus]

You don't need two weapons. TWF specifically says "different weapons", but Crossbow Expert does not. As long as you have a free hand you can fire it indefinitely.

I plan on running a Rogue 1/Battle master X build similar to this when I get the chance. Gaining Sneak Attacks seems worth a 1 level dip, but I've never cared too much for Assassinate.
You could dual wield light crossbows, but what happens when you have to reload them? Don't you need two hands to load one? If because of the feat you load twice as fast then you used to and now you have two weapons won't you reload at the same speed?

[Jarlhen]

They are only better if you stay at 30 range... The advantage of other crossbows is actual ranged attacks. The hand crossbow with crossbow feat is a risk vs reward thing.

The main issue with crossbow master is the synergy with sharpshooter. That puts the range at 120, so the risk vs reward is nullified. Either way, even if it was 30 ft only it's still no question. You're doing ~50% more damage with H. crossbows and crossbowmaster. If you're not taking that option you're gimping yourself.

[Quintessence]

The main issue with crossbow master is the synergy with sharpshooter. That puts the range at 120, so the risk vs reward is nullified. Either way, even if it was 30 ft only it's still no question. You're doing ~50% more damage with H. crossbows and crossbowmaster. If you're not taking that option you're gimping yourself.

That is a 2 feat investment, you better get something out of it :/

[Sabeta]

You could dual wield light crossbows, but what happens when you have to reload them? Don't you need two hands to load one? If because of the feat you load twice as fast then you used to and now you have two weapons won't you reload at the same speed?

What I'm saying is, Crossbow Expert allows you to use the same weapon that you attacked with for you bonus attack. So if you're wielding a single Hand-Crossbow, and your off-hand has nothing equipped to it, then you can still perform your normal attack, and then your Bonus Action Attack from Crossbow Expert. If you have the Extra Attack Feature than you can even pull off a third Attack, all with one crossbow.

I'm not sure where you get the "loading twice as fast" bit from. From the PHB


Loading. Because of the time required to load this
weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition
from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction
to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can
normally make.


Crossbow Expert allows you to ignore that rule. You don't load "twice as fast", you're simply not penalized for using a Crossbow. With that Feat you can attack as many times a turn as you have Attacks, which may be as many as much as "5 times" as fast.

[Foxhound438]

splitting off at 3 from a class that has extra attack is always a trap, but that aside, this shouldn't be problematic. it's no stronger than starting Vuman with polearm master, or great weapon master as a barbarian. If the early boost seems like a potential problem to you, just say no variant humans. it's a homebrew campaign to begin with, so any such restrictions are perfectly fair game, but i'll repeat myself and others in that this will, long term at least, not be an issue.

also, let your enemies group up occasionally. there's no need to blatantly metagame around one ability of one player, especially one as innocuous (and fun, when you get to use it) as horde breaker.

[Traziremus]

What I'm saying is, Crossbow Expert allows you to use the same weapon that you attacked with for you bonus attack. So if you're wielding a single Hand-Crossbow, and your off-hand has nothing equipped to it, then you can still perform your normal attack, and then your Bonus Action Attack from Crossbow Expert. If you have the Extra Attack Feature than you can even pull off a third Attack, all with one crossbow.

I'm not sure where you get the "loading twice as fast" bit from. From the PHB



Crossbow Expert allows you to ignore that rule. You don't load "twice as fast", you're simply not penalized for using a Crossbow. With that Feat you can attack as many times a turn as you have Attacks, which may be as many as much as "5 times" as fast.
Oh I see, not sure if they intended to make it that way. It sounds a bit too powerful for 5th Edition whom has little toys for power gamers to play with.

[Kryx]

Oh I see, not sure if they intended to make it that way. It sounds a bit too powerful for 5th Edition whom has little toys for power gamers to play with.
They did. See http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.01.pdf under feats:


Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and then fire it again as a bonus action? It does! Take a look at the feat's third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand cross-bow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand crossbow between the two attacks