Can multiclassed initiators (ToB) use multiple stances at once?

[Xarteros]

If you multiclass for two initiator classes (Swordsage and Warblade for instance), can you use the stances independently for each class? (i.e, use your Warblade stances alongside your Swordsage stances, each subject to the individual classes' effective initiator level for determining any values based on initiator level)

I'm fairly sure the answer is meant to be a resounding "no", but I'm curious because all manoeuvres readied/known and stances known are independent to each initiator class.

I've been dredging through my Tome of Battle all day for a solid answer, but I'm not passing my search check. Normally, I'd expect to see a big, plain line saying "A character may only gain the effect of a single stance at any one time, even if he gains the ability to use stances through another martial adept class", but I have found no such line.

Can anyone link me a page number to where it might say specifically, or post a quote/snippet if it's allowed?

Addendum: I am well aware of the Warblade's capstone feature allowing you to use two stances at once. This lets you use two Warblade stances at once, I'm inquiring about using a single Warblade stance alongside a single Swordsage stance etc.

Thanks =)

[Troacctid]

Here is the rule, from page 43.

You can use a single swift action to end one stance and begin another, or you can choose to simply end your current stance without entering a different one. You continue to gain a stance’s benefits until you switch to a new stance or end your current one.
Activating a new stance ends the duration of your previous stance. In order to adopt two stances at once, you must be a warblade 20 or a master of nine 2.

[Renen]

I'm not looking at the book atm, but I think the stances have the wording that you switch from one stance to another. It makes no distinction with how you got them, and only cares that you are in stance A, and switch from it to stance B, thus dropping A.

Edit: Damn swordsages...

[Xarteros]

Here is the rule, from page 43.

Activating a new stance ends the duration of your previous stance. In order to adopt two stances at once, you must be a warblade 20 or a master of nine 2.

This is the part where I thought they might count as different effects from different initiator classes.

All of the manoeuvre recovery methods act independently for each base class, as do their effects (if any) that depend on your initiator level. If you decide to take the same manoeuvre for multiple classes, each time you use the manoeuvre you have to choose which class you're using it from, which determines the recovery method and any bonus effect from initiator level. Isn't it possible that stances can work the same way? It would mean each base class could enter their own stances (still limited by the stances you've picked for each class, independently).

I'm only trying to iron out the creases since I like to play as close to RAW as possible and minimise house ruling, but I also need to know possible loopholes I can use to counter the loopholes my players might use (keeps the game a bit more balanced)

Thanks for the quick reply =)

[Nando]

Here is the rule, from page 43.

Activating a new stance ends the duration of your previous stance. In order to adopt two stances at once, you must be a warblade 20 or a master of nine 2.

Actually that's RAI - RAW is: You can enter a stance via a swift action, you can end it via a swift action, and you can change from one stance to another via a swift action. But noweher is it stated that it is necessary to be in no stance, to be able to activate one...
That you loose your stance when you initiate a different one is only implied in the ability of MoN2. Warblade 20 doesn't even do that, it just tells you that "[a]t 20th level, you can have two stances active simultaneously." That would be a case of specific trumps general -but there is no general rule, actually, that would be trumped by the ability. Only a very clear intended rule...

EDIT:


You initiate a stance as a swift action. A stance remains in effect indefinitely and is not expended. You enjoy the benefit your stance confers until you change to another stance you know as a swift action.

You can initiate a stance as a swift action. [...] You can use a single swift action to end one stance and begin another, or you can choose to simply end your current stance without entering a different one. You continue to gain a stance’s benefits until you switch to a new stance or end your current one.

RAWwise there is no need to "change" or "switch" to a different stance - you could simply initiate a new one.

[Troacctid]

I picked the first instance of the rule that I found, but the restriction is referenced in other places in the book, such as on page 40.

Most martial adepts can use only one stance at a time, but some high-level adepts might be able to use two stances at once.
I'm sure if you comb through the text closely, you'll find more references to this restriction.

[Nando]

Well, I missed that point - but on the other hand:


Stance: This duration indicates that the ability is a stance, and therefore ends only when you will it to end, when you become helpless, or when you fulfill a specific condition described in the stance’s description.

That would have been the place - the section about durations of maneuvers - where they should have put the clear statement, that a stance ends if you initiate a different one. They didn't and all that's left are those references that are kind of pointless, since they reference a rule that isn't there. What you, Toracctid, pointed out on p. 40 is the closes thing I've seen in the book, telling us that it is, in fact, not possible to use two stances a the same time. But, one could allways read that as "well, I only have one swift action, so I can enter only one stance at a time (and have to wait for my next swift action to enter a second stance)".

[schreier]

It seems pretty clear that you can only have one stance at a time, unless otherwise enabled through a high level in Warblade (20) or a prestige class (Master of Nine (2)).

I understand the question, but we have strong text supporting the single stance position, and only vague text indicating a possibility of two stances at once from multiclassing.

From what we've seen, we have:

Pg 5

Stance: A stance is a special type of maneuver. Each stance is a particular fighting pose that grants a martial adept special benefits and options. For example, the Tiger Claw discipline teaches stances that allow the user to unlock her feral, animalistic nature. Unlike other maneuvers, most stances can remain in effect for an indefinite time. All stances a character knows are available to her at all times. A character can adopt a stance, or change from one stance to another, as a swift action.

A character can adopt A stance, or change from ONE stance to ANOTHER... all singular. Logically, you would not change from one to another if you could just stack them.

Pg 38

If you know more than one stance, consider doing the same thing for your stances and keep a small hand of stances alongside your hand of maneuvers. Indicate which stance you are currently using by keeping that stance on top of the others. When you change your stance, rearrange your stack of stances accordingly.

Indicate which STANCE -- once again, singular ...

Pg 40

Multiclass Martial Adept: A character with two or more martial adept classes keeps track of his readied maneuvers, expended maneuvers, and recovery of expended maneuvers separately for each class.


If you could use multiple stances, it would seem to be almost certainly stated here, and it's not.


Also on Pg 40

Most martial adepts can use only one stance at a time, but some high-level adepts might be able to use two stances at once.

This addresses it pretty effectively - it doesn't say "multi-class" - just high-level ... supporting the position that warblade and master of the nine are the two ways to do it. Also ... it does not address the possibility of more than two stances. If you had one stance per initiator class, you could have three.

Pg 43

You can initiate a stance as a swift action. When you enter a stance, you immediately gain its benefit. You continue to gain the benefit of a typical stance as long as you remain in it. ... You can use a single swift action to end one stance and begin another, or you can choose to simply end your current stance without entering a different one. You continue to gain a stance’s benefits until you switch to a new stance or end your current one. ... Your stance ends if you are rendered helpless for any reason. If you later recover, you must use another swift action to initiate your stance once again.

All singular again - "A" stance, can end ONE stance and begin ANOTHER. Probably most clearly, "You continue to gain a stance's benefits until you switch to a new stance or end your current one."

Pg 119

Dual Stance (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, you can choose to not lose your current stance when you enter a different stance from another discipline. The amount of time you can spend in two stances is limited. You can use this ability to gain the benefits of two stances for a maximum of 2 rounds per class level each day, split up as you desire among multiple uses and multiple stance pairs.


It says "You can choose not to lose your current stance" -- this ability would be meaningless if you could have more than one stance ... and since Master of Nine is a prestige class that most likely requires multiple initiator classes to qualify - it would make little sense as an ability if you could just have one per class.

The strongest argument for multiple stances is the lack of specific language here:
Pg 45

"Stance: This duration indicates that the ability is a stance, and therefore ends only when you will it to end, when you become helpless, or when you fulfill a specific condition described in the stance’s description."

That doesn't say it ends when you initiate a new stance ... but the language "ends only when you will it to end" can easily be applied to switching stances - you have to take a willing action to change from one to another.


I think it's good to try and line up positions before being pushed to make a decision, and it does not seem to be as clearly stated as one would like ... but the treatment of stances seems consistent across all of the sources ... I'd say it is 95% RAW and 100% RAI that you get one stance at a time, unless you have Warblade 20 or Master of Nine 2.

[Darrin]

Within the one stance at a time, you can use two stances in the same round if their benefits happen at different times in the round. For example, use Punishing Stance for damage, then switch to Pearl of Black Doubt for the AC bonus. Or use a movement-based stance to move, then switch to a damage-based stance for your melee attack. The swift action to switch stances can be used any time you could use a free action, so you can even use it between attacks.

But no, outside Warblade 20, Master of Nine, or Dvati shenanigans, only one stance at a time.

[daremetoidareyo]

Within the one stance at a time, you can use two stances in the same round if their benefits happen at different times in the round. For example, use Punishing Stance for damage, then switch to Pearl of Black Doubt for the AC bonus. Or use a movement-based stance to move, then switch to a damage-based stance for your melee attack. The swift action to switch stances can be used any time you could use a free action, so you can even use it between attacks.

But no, outside Warblade 20, Master of Nine, or Dvati shenanigans, only one stance at a time.

This is a great point. Any way to abuse this?

[Necroticplague]

There's also a monster in ToB (something Rakasha, I think) that has a racial ability to be in two stances, as long as one of the stances is one of a small list.