"What I need is a ranged attack" [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ChillerInstinct

2016-07-20, 10:30 AM

The reason Roy's currently hung up on getting a Ranged Attack is the HPoH's Antilife Shell. Without Durkon, the only two members of the party who bypass it are Haley and V (and I guess Belkar with throwing weapons, for what that matters), and since he's the one with enough Will to withstand the HPoH's Domination, a skill that can counter his spellcasting, and a weapon that's effective against the undead, not to mention that this fight just got personal... well, he's the one who'll probably be doing the bulk of the damage against him.

Roy wasn't expecting the Shell when they were buying resources at Tinkertown, and they probably don't have a lot of time to buy crossbows with loads of holy silver arrows (not to mention they're already worried about where they'll find the gold to keep the Mechane crew sweet), so they'll need to make do with what they've got.

Kish

2016-07-20, 10:42 AM

If Roy needed SO DESPERATELY a Ranged Attack, why didn't he ever tough about buying a bow?
A Composite Longbow in his hands would deal a good punch.

He could even buy a few javelins, if Bows aren't his style!!
As ChillerInstinct noted, he's specifically concerned about the situation where an equal-to-his-level vampire priest is taunting him from inside an Antilife Shell.

Since vampires have DR 10/silver and magic, he would need to either buy a magic composite longbow and a lot of silver arrows, or a lot of magic silver javelins. To get the benefit you're implying from a composite longbow, he would need a specially made composite longbow (add Roy's strength modifier x 100 gold to the cost of the composite longbow, and more importantly, to how unlikely it is that he'll just find this bow on a rack in the next store he wanders into...if he goes near a store anytime soon).

tsj

2016-07-20, 10:44 AM

Roy should just get returning on his sword and make awesome thrown sword ranged attacks

Like Thors hammer but with a sword

Peelee

2016-07-20, 10:45 AM

Roy should just get returning on his sword and make awesome thrown sword ranged attacks

Like Thors hammer but with a sword

Not a bad idea, but he would need some way of getting the sword back. Imean, he could just run to the sword and pick it up, but that's less than ideal.

Kish

2016-07-20, 10:59 AM

rooster707

2016-07-20, 11:00 AM

Not a bad idea, but he would need some way of getting the sword back. Imean, he could just run to the sword and pick it up, but that's less than ideal.

Which is what the returning is for, I'm pretty sure? :smallconfused: I'm not very familiar with 3.5, though, so I may be wrong.

Peelee

2016-07-20, 11:06 AM

Which is what the returning is for, I'm pretty sure? :smallconfused: I'm not very familiar with 3.5, though, so I may be wrong.

....I don't know how I missed that when I first read that comment. i am not a smart man.

semi

2016-07-20, 11:09 AM

Imean, he could just run to the sword and pick it up, but that's less than ideal.

This is basically what I call playing 'fetch' with my cat. Definitely +1 on the idea of this being less than ideal.

Jasdoif

2016-07-20, 11:21 AM

If Roy could possibly get a ranged attack out of his sword, which wouldn't take any extra time to buy out of combat or any extra time to swap weapons in combat, why wouldn't he try it? It's not like he already knows every ability the sword has.

The Artisan

2016-07-20, 12:30 PM

This is returning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#returning). It can't be placed on a greatsword, only a weapon designed to be thrown; also even if it could it would cost as much as enchanting a +5 greatsword with other special abilities (so at least +6) to equal one point higher (a minimum of 26,000 gold, and it couldn't be done overnight even if Roy stumbled into the shop of the best blacksmith in the Dwarven Lands).

Pssh, tell all that to the legendary warhammer, Aegis-Fang... It is not like Rich is above bending the house-rules, and extending the uses of 'returning' is not past the scope what we have seen him do to change some rules (like a modified flesh-golem with full memories, for instance). With the right mage, anything can do anything!

tsj

2016-07-20, 12:46 PM

Pssh, tell all that to the legendary warhammer, Aegis-Fang... It is not like Rich is above bending the house-rules, and extending the uses of 'returning' is not past the scope what we have seen him do to change some rules (like a modified flesh-golem with full memories, for instance). With the right mage, anything can do anything!

I think most DM'S would allow a returning (+5) effect on a greatsword even if RAW doesn't ..

Heck I would even allow it to not count against the maximum enchanting of the weapon and maybe even make it available at a discount. ... it is JUST a greatsword after all. .

Especially a super special greatsword would be a likely candidate for effects like that....

It's not like a fighter suddenly becomes game breaking in any way by getting a returning greatsword. ...

Besides it's nothing compared to v killing of an entire race by accident

Peelee

2016-07-20, 12:50 PM

I think most DM'S would allow a returning (+5) effect on a greatsword even if RAW doesn't

Especially a super special one

It's not like a fighter suddenly becomes game breaking in any way by getting a returning greatsword. ...

Besides it's nothing compared to v killing of an entire race by accident

...V didn't kill off an entire race, and it wasn't by accident. He killed off 1/4 of the race, and it was quite intentional.

tsj

2016-07-20, 12:53 PM

...V didn't kill off an entire race, and it wasn't by accident. He killed off 1/4 of the race, and it was quite intentional.

Even so... a returning +5 greatsword with all kind of crazy effects on top of it (I know +5 is normally max)
hardly compares to intentional killing 1/4 of a race with ONE spell .... even IF v had a bunch of God like wizards inside him/her/it

Kish

2016-07-20, 12:59 PM

Pssh, tell all that to the legendary warhammer, Aegis-Fang...
"Legendary"? Anyone's personal opinion of the awful hack R. A. Salvatore aside (oops), this appears to have moved from "Roy should just get Returning on his sword" to "Rich can write Roy's sword as coming back to him when he throws it, if he wants." Those don't really strike me as identical ideas. Yes, Rich might (be about to, in fact) have Roy unlock some way of making his sword come back to him when he throws it. No, he will not simply take it to a smith and get it enchanted with Returning.

Jasdoif

2016-07-20, 12:59 PM

Even so... a returning +5 greatsword with all kind of crazy effects on top of it (I know +5 is normally max)+5 for the actual enhancement bonus is the max (pre-epic), but the bonus and various special abilities can go up to a +10 equivalence (pre-epic).

Of course, between Roy having a sword that potentially already does the job that making it a boomerangreatsword would, and that the option exists to adding throwing onto a greatsword to make it eligible for returning, I don't see why most DM would be inclined to bend the rules.

Peelee

2016-07-20, 01:05 PM

"Legendary"? Anyone's personal opinion of the awful hack R. A. Salvatore aside

Dude figured that an acceptable character death would be literally dropping a moon on him, and kicked off a 19 book series of mediocrity at its best. Never read any of his fantasy stuff before, and after that, I'm not really inclined to.

Off topic rant over.

Kish

2016-07-20, 01:09 PM

90% fight scenes, creepy, disturbing torture porn (but that was doubly redundant), a confused premise that seems to amount to "it's wrong to be racist against protagonists..." Yeah.

KorvinStarmast

2016-07-20, 01:27 PM

90% fight scenes, creepy, disturbing torture porn (but that was doubly redundant), You talking about Goodkind (Wizard's First Rule and such) or Salvatore?

Kish

2016-07-20, 01:36 PM

Salvatore. Goodkind's premises are often horrendous, but they're rarely confused.

The Artisan

2016-07-20, 01:39 PM

90% fight scenes, creepy, disturbing torture porn (but that was doubly redundant), a confused premise that seems to amount to "it's wrong to be racist against protagonists..." Yeah.

Oh, I fully agree about story quality. But, he does write excellently described combat (which is why it was 90% of the text, and why I read so much of the series. Love well described combat.), and there can be no doubt that Aegis Fang qualifies as a legendary weapon (as in, spoken of in legends). That hammer is part of the world lore by the end of the series.

I also agree it will not simply be about going to a smith. Yes, my point was indeed that 'returning' could easily be something Rich house-rules as allowed on weapons that aren't specifically thrown weapons.

factotum

2016-07-20, 04:32 PM

Even so... a returning +5 greatsword with all kind of crazy effects on top of it (I know +5 is normally max)
hardly compares to intentional killing 1/4 of a race with ONE spell .... even IF v had a bunch of God like wizards inside him/her/it

That "even if" is kind of important? V himself is a level 14-15 wizard who couldn't dream of casting Familicide even if he wanted to. Haerta, on the other hand, was the most powerful epic necromancer the IFCC could find in whatever part of Hell they control, and was the most powerful of the three soul splices V had at the time by some margin--she was probably, what, level 30+? That's a pretty darned significant difference in power there.

Concept

2016-07-20, 05:09 PM

Peelee

2016-07-20, 05:36 PM

I feel Roy is mistaken. His whole career has been dedicated to mastering this weapon. It is not a ranged weapon. It is a greatsword. He should continue on his current path and master this weapon and all that it can do.

I don't understand your complaint. If the sword is able to make a ranged attack, and Roy figures out how to do it at will, is that not mastering the weapon and all that it can do? It's not like he's trying to ditch it all of a sudden.

DaggerPen

2016-07-20, 05:39 PM

The Order of the Stick, avoiding optimal tactical decisions until basically physically compelled to shore up a weak spot? Say it ain't so :smalltongue:

Roy's needed a backup weapon for a while now, but the Antilife Shield was the first time it had been made so glaringly obvious a weakness to him. And now they have neither time nor money to stop for another one (which makes me wonder now if Thor's sending that expensive-repair-making storm after them didn't actually shoot himself in the foot there... but they may not have had time to stop regardless), plus, as mentioned above, the difficulty of finding a ranged weapon that will do anything much to a vampire's DR.

So, altogether, it's worth the old Fighter College try.

Kish

2016-07-20, 05:41 PM

I feel Roy is mistaken. His whole career has been dedicated to mastering this weapon. It is not a ranged weapon. It is a greatsword. He should continue on his current path and master this weapon and all that it can do.

I hope Eugene mocks him for wanting to be a pretend wizard.
While I have little patience for the people who regularly insist Roy should multiclass and stop pretending the fighter class has any justification to exist, this throws me. He's mistaken that having a ranged attack would have been really useful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1011.html) here?

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-20, 06:20 PM

That "even if" is kind of important? V himself is a level 14-15 wizard who couldn't dream of casting Familicide even if he wanted to.
V definitively stopped being level 14 around the beginning of Blood Runs in the Family, when she started casting 8th-level spells. Current best guess puts her at 16 by the end of that book based on her spells remaining when Laurin scarpered, though no higher based on her conversation with Roy at the end of the Tinkertown sequence.

Haerta, on the other hand, was the most powerful epic necromancer the IFCC could find in whatever part of Hell they control,
Haerta was Nero's, and would have come from his domain, which is probably somewhere on the OOTS equivalent of Hades. Not that we ever see it (or Cedric's domain in the not-Abyss), since whenever we see the Directors they're gathered in Lee's domain in Hell.

ChillerInstinct

2016-07-20, 06:20 PM

(which makes me wonder now if Thor's sending that expensive-repair-making storm after them didn't actually shoot himself in the foot there... but they may not have had time to stop regardless)

Funny you mention that, Bandana claims they needed to stop to refuel anyway. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html) Which means they would have bought the supplies anyway, and still have several tens of thousands of gold in their back pocket, or at the very least would have been able to buy MORE supplies. Nice job breaking it, Thor. :P

skim172

2016-07-20, 07:27 PM

While I have little patience for the people who regularly insist Roy should multiclass and stop pretending the fighter class has any justification to exist, this throws me. He's mistaken that having a ranged attack would have been really useful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1011.html) here?

I think Roy could've been a bit more resourceful. Sure, Durk-face has an anti-life shell up - no reason why Roy could've have picked up a couple rocks and chucked them at his head. Okay, by standard D&D rules, that wouldn't do anything, but imagine it: Durk-face, all smug sitting in his anti-life shell, and then BAM! rock to the face. The image of that alone would've been funny enough to be worth it. And maybe it might've distracted him enough to make him lose concentration. Who knows?

I wonder if Roy could've caused a masonry collapse, like he did with Thog? His starmetal sword is super-powerful - might've been able to take out a supporting pillar.

Keltest

2016-07-20, 07:45 PM

Jasdoif

2016-07-20, 09:03 PM

Whether or not Roy should have grabbed a bow in gnomeland when they stopped, Roy has noted, repeatedly, that without his sword he is less combat ready than Elan before he got his prestige class. Yes, I get he has a thing about that sword. But he's supposed to be the "smart" fighter. He has recognized the problem multiple times in the past. It was, in fact, so bad that Belkar called him out on that particular call. So I would say that yes, making himself even more reliant on having this particular greatsword available as a weapon at all times is a particularly boneheaded move destined to lead to sorrow.The interesting part here, is that since getting a ranged attack out of his sword wouldn't cost him anything, he could still pick up a ranged weapon. Whether that's funny or sad (or both) is debatable.

Anyway. So far, the cheapest option I've come up with for Roy is a sling (no cost), 20 rocks (no cost), oil of magic weapon (50 gp assuming the standard CL 1), and silversheen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#silversheen) (250gp). It'd bypass a vampire's DR and still allow Roy his Strength bonus on damage rolls. Admittedly the single oil is only enough to last through about half the rocks....

DaggerPen

2016-07-20, 09:51 PM

The interesting part here, is that since getting a ranged attack out of his sword wouldn't cost him anything, he could still pick up a ranged weapon. Whether that's funny or sad (or both) is debatable.

Anyway. So far, the cheapest option I've come up with for Roy is a sling (no cost), 20 rocks (no cost), oil of magic weapon (50 gp assuming the standard CL 1), and silversheen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#silversheen) (250gp). It'd bypass a vampire's DR and still allow Roy his Strength bonus on damage rolls. Admittedly the single oil is only enough to last through about half the rocks....

If anyone's going to attack the vampire with a sling, I think Belkar has super dibs.

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-20, 10:25 PM

If anyone's going to attack the vampire with a sling, I think Belkar has super dibs.
:belkar: We literally have bonuses for this!

Rogar Demonblud

2016-07-20, 11:11 PM

If Belkar's going to throw stuff, he'd be better off using Holy Water. It bypasses the DR and Belkar doesn't want it near him anyway.

Jasdoif

2016-07-21, 12:55 AM

After review I'm revising my earlier answer; I forgot some details about ammunition costs, so I'm ditching the silversheen approach. The cheapest option I see now would be a sling (no cost), ten alchemically silvered sling bullets (20gp and 1sp), and an oil of magic weapon (50 gp).

That's less than a quarter the cost of my earlier proposal (and cheaper than a basic longbow), so it should be simple enough to outfit Roy and Belkar if they can find someone who has special ammo on hand...plus, we're talking about literal silver bullets; there's got to be some sort of circumstance bonus to be eked out there.

Peelee

2016-07-21, 01:23 AM

plus, we're talking about literal silver bullets; there's got to be some sort of circumstance bonus to be eked out there.
There's a +5 reference bonus if he wears a domino mask.

factotum

2016-07-21, 02:49 AM

I think Roy could've been a bit more resourceful. Sure, Durk-face has an anti-life shell up - no reason why Roy could've have picked up a couple rocks and chucked them at his head. Okay, by standard D&D rules, that wouldn't do anything, but imagine it: Durk-face, all smug sitting in his anti-life shell, and then BAM! rock to the face. The image of that alone would've been funny enough to be worth it. And maybe it might've distracted him enough to make him lose concentration. Who knows?

Antilife Shell doesn't require concentration to maintain--it's a fire and forget spell that will last its rated duration regardless of what the caster does. So, any amusement obtained by a rock hitting Durkula in the face would have been rapidly erased by the knowledge that the attack did absolutely nothing to help stop him.

As for a masonry collapse, the entire meeting hall didn't have any supporting pillars (apart from the ones supporting the balcony around the edge, which were nowhere near Durkula), and whatever Roy's sword is made of, using it to hack at rock walls is not a strategy calculated to enhance its life.

One last point: Roy is undoubtedly the most intelligent member of the Order besides Vaarsuvius, and probably has one of the highest Wisdom scores as well. (See: Mind Flayer choosing to attack him over anyone else in an early strip). Do you seriously imagine he didn't consider every possibility you just mentioned?

Manty5

2016-07-21, 04:43 AM

You could always use the "poor man's returning" aka doing what Ray said he should have done and tie the sword to his wrist.

I even saw a modern fishing reel in the Gnome town montage. Lets hope there's a stowaway who likes fishing...

Mightymosy

2016-07-21, 06:25 AM

How about flying boots, a wand with Flying, or extended flying spell from V?

Nightcanon

2016-07-21, 06:56 AM

Pssh, tell all that to the legendary warhammer, Aegis-Fang... It is not like Rich is above bending the house-rules, and extending the uses of 'returning' is not past the scope what we have seen him do to change some rules (like a modified flesh-golem with full memories, for instance). With the right mage, anything can do anything!

?? As far as I can recall, the archetypical D&D returning weapon is the Dwarven Thrower, which was a warhammer which in the hands of a dwarf with both gauntlets of ogre power and a belt of giant strength, returned magically to the thrower. Returning hammers are very much core; swords not so much.

Jaxzan Proditor

2016-07-21, 07:21 AM

Personally, I don't see why you'd complain about Roy choosing this path instead of being a little more optimized. I mean, this way if he actual can get this to work he shoots green energy from his sword instead of a boring old bow. :smallcool: :smallcool:

Grey_Wolf_c

2016-07-21, 08:00 AM

How about flying boots, a wand with Flying, or extended flying spell from V?

How would any of those help with the anti-life shell?

GW

Deliverance

2016-07-21, 08:35 AM

Whether or not Roy should have grabbed a bow in gnomeland when they stopped, Roy has noted, repeatedly, that without his sword he is less combat ready than Elan before he got his prestige class. Yes, I get he has a thing about that sword. But he's supposed to be the "smart" fighter. He has recognized the problem multiple times in the past. It was, in fact, so bad that Belkar called him out on that particular call. So I would say that yes, making himself even more reliant on having this particular greatsword available as a weapon at all times is a particularly boneheaded move destined to lead to sorrow.
Granted that D&D isn't particularly hung up on small issues as the impracticality of carrying both a composite longbow and a greatsword with you wherever you go, the Giant would have to find some way to draw it that wouldn't look stupid, and I'm not sure he's up for that.

Anyhow, Roy uses his sword. It is his thing. Roy deciding to rely on some other weapon to solve problems just because it would be more practical would be a significant character development in its own right.

tsj

2016-07-21, 10:44 AM

That "even if" is kind of important? V himself is a level 14-15 wizard who couldn't dream of casting Familicide even if he wanted to. Haerta, on the other hand, was the most powerful epic necromancer the IFCC could find in whatever part of Hell they control, and was the most powerful of the three soul splices V had at the time by some margin--she was probably, what, level 30+? That's a pretty darned significant difference in power there.

Sure but even without soul splices.. V is still way more powerful than any +5 flying returning great sword with all kind software crazy effects adding up to at least +10

At least outside of the OOTS universe

I guess not all DM'S would allow really "powerful" melee weapons like this... but the OOTS are in any sense pretty high level as it is anyway

I would never deny a pure fighter to eventually get whatever crazy extreme whatever sword of ultimate doom because the sword would never ever be able to cause any problems

Of course very special and specific effects could be problematic but certainly not returning

Peelee

2016-07-21, 11:17 AM

Sure but even without soul splices.. V is still way more powerful than any +5 flying returning great sword with all kind software crazy effects adding up to at least +10

Then why did you feel the need to bring up Familicide as a proof of power differential?

tsj

2016-07-21, 12:05 PM

Then why did you feel the need to bring up Familicide as a proof of power differential?

Because Roy would never be any use for the soul slices

Peelee

2016-07-21, 12:12 PM

Because Roy would never be any use for the soul slices

Imean, I get that, but why is it relevant? If your point is that you would be willing to power up straight fighters because of the power differential, then adding in a specific conditional that most players would not ever get to the power differential does nothing to help your argument, and moves focus away from your main point.

Mightymosy

2016-07-21, 04:05 PM

How would any of those help with the anti-life shell?

GW

Granted, you picked an example where a ranged attack helps much more than the suggestions I made as an alternative, but dropping rocks from above might still have been better than climbing the shell and trying to stab Durkula from above, as Roy did initially.

Honestly, the stunt with Lady of Odin's spear in #1004 reasonably shouldn't have worked anyway, which could have stopped Roy way before the antilife-shell spell.

IF Roy can learn to shoot beams Zeldar-style, sure, no need, but up until the point Roy learned he had an ancestral magic something weapon I think any of my suggestions would have been nice alternatives to getting a ranged attack, and surely better than having neither.

Anyway, in a world where some people can shoots fireballs from their fingertips and you yourself can only hit people with medieval weapons, not carrying the kind of weapons that at least allow you to do so from a distance if needed, asks for trouble. :smalltongue:

Pyron

2016-07-21, 04:36 PM

How would any of those help with the anti-life shell?

He could throw the boots and the wand.

littlebum2002

2016-07-21, 05:00 PM

Granted, you picked an example where a ranged attack helps much more than the suggestions I made as an alternative, but dropping rocks from above might still have been better than climbing the shell and trying to stab Durkula from above, as Roy did initially.

In trying to prove that Roy needs a ranged attack, he used as an example the situation that taught Roy he needs a ranged attack.

Then, you happened to suggest things that weren't a ranged attack and that wouldn't have helped in that situation. I, and I'm sure most people on this thread, have no idea why you did this.

Grey_Wolf_c

2016-07-21, 05:02 PM

He could throw the boots and the wand.

And V.......

GW

Keltest

2016-07-21, 05:10 PM

And V.......

GW

Unless wands are made of tiny treant wizards and boots of flying are made by strapping pixies to boots, throwing V is a significantly worse plan than throwing the boots and wand.

Kish

2016-07-21, 05:14 PM

Granted, you picked an example where a ranged attack helps much more than the suggestions I made as an alternative,
As an alternative to what? You seem to be trying to have a different conversation here than most of us.

Roy wants a ranged attack. The thread's about him getting a ranged attack. This is specifically him responding to the anti-life shell incident. The "What gear upgrades should Roy ask Santa Stick Figure for?" thread is over there. And hasn't been started yet.

theasl

2016-07-21, 05:27 PM

DaggerPen

2016-07-21, 05:33 PM

Funny you mention that, Bandana claims they needed to stop to refuel anyway. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html) Which means they would have bought the supplies anyway, and still have several tens of thousands of gold in their back pocket, or at the very least would have been able to buy MORE supplies. Nice job breaking it, Thor. :P

Conversely, if they hadn't stocked up on supplies and had elected to just keep going, there'd have been no teleport orb, meaning the plan to control the dwarven council would have been up the creek without a paddle.

Mightymosy

2016-07-21, 05:41 PM

As an alternative to what? You seem to be trying to have a different conversation here than most of us.

Roy wants a ranged attack. The thread's about him getting a ranged attack. This is specifically him responding to the anti-life shell incident. The "What gear upgrades should Roy ask Santa Stick Figure for?" thread is over there. And hasn't been started yet.

Oh sorry. I thought Roy wanted a ranged attack because of issues like the antilife-shell in #1011 where he couldn't reach a target at a distance with his sword. Which would be a reasonable wish for someone who can only do melee so far, and is planning to take down a lich who is capable of raining meteor showers from above.
That's why I suggested alternatives to ranged attacks per se.

If you don't care for such strategical considerations and want to focus strictly on ranged attacks only, please go ahead and ignore my previous posting.
(Also, please don't put stuff in White that I'm supposed to read. I'm likely to miss it, or read it so late that my actual post has already been made.)

:smallcool:

Mightymosy

2016-07-21, 05:49 PM

In trying to prove that Roy needs a ranged attack, he used as an example the situation that taught Roy he needs a ranged attack.

Then, you happened to suggest things that weren't a ranged attack and that wouldn't have helped in that situation. I, and I'm sure most people on this thread, have no idea why you did this.

I imagine that in a lot of situation where you want a ranged attack, it is because the range of your sword can't hit your target. So you can fly to your target to hit it with your sword from close range. Or, if your target is tougher than you can handle, you can at least try to fly out of their range (for example, what could Roy have done in O'Chul's and Lien's stead when they were attacked by the ice dragon thing with a sonic attack? A ranged attack could be good to take it down, or flying close to it to attack it, or fly away from it if it is too strong).

Sure, in the antilife-shell situation flying wouldn't have been the best solution, I admitted that. But since Roy plans to fight against a lich sorceror who in their previous fight threw Roy down from the skies and shot meteors at him while flying, I thought of strategic options for Roy that were about as useful as a ranged attack, in similar situations.

Jasdoif

2016-07-21, 05:59 PM

Oh sorry. I thought Roy wanted a ranged attack because of issues like the antilife-shell in #1011 where he couldn't reach a target at a distance with his sword.Antilife shell would keep magically flying Roy out just as it did naturally terrestrial Roy, though. Unless Roy's really not planning on facing HPoH (or Redcloak, for that matter), having an option that'd work in situations with antilife shell would be a good idea.

Now if you're thinking of Roy getting a flight option in addition to a ranged attack option in case of antilife shell, that's a different matter....Although I will point out that Roy's unlikely to have the Use Magic Device skill to activate a wand, and relying exclusively on Vaarsuvius for flight poses a risk of untimely IFCC intervention.

littlebum2002

2016-07-21, 06:04 PM

Sure, in the antilife-shell situation flying wouldn't have been the best solution, I admitted that. But since Roy plans to fight against a lich sorceror who in their previous fight threw Roy down from the skies and shot meteors at him while flying, I thought of strategic options for Roy that were about as useful as a ranged attack, in similar situations.

So you want Roy to be useful in the fight against the creature that wants to take over the world, and useless in the fight against the creature that wants to destroy the world. Gotcha.

Mightymosy

2016-07-21, 06:06 PM

Antilife shell would keep magically flying Roy out just as it did naturally terrestrial Roy, though. Unless Roy's really not planning on facing HPoH (or Redcloak, for that matter), having an option that'd work in situations with antilife shell would be a good idea.

Now if you're thinking of Roy getting a flight option in addition to a ranged attack option in case of antilife shell, that's a different matter....Although I will point out that Roy's unlikely to have the Use Magic Device skill to activate a wand, and relying exclusively on Vaarsuvius for flight poses a risk of untimely IFCC intervention.

Roy should have tried to find ranged attacks/flight options way before he face the antilife-shell. Again, how was he planning to face a flying deployer of meteor showers?

What would you think after #442?

Also, what about that "Use Magic Device skill"? Does Haley know Magic? Or what does it mean?

Mightymosy

2016-07-21, 06:09 PM

So you want Roy to be useful in the fight against the creature that wants to take over the world, and useless in the fight against the creature that wants to destroy the world. Gotcha.

At this point I think I'm being trolled.

If you really want to go on, what use would a crossbow be against mistform-Durkula?

My point is that Roy should have planned for reaching enemies that were outside his sword range for a long time now, and now maybe even more, and if ranged attacks aren't or weren't available, I considered ways to fly as a reasonable alternative.

Jormengand

2016-07-21, 06:34 PM

Because a weapon with the throwing quality can be thrown (technically, any weapon can be thrown), you could put returning on that. It's not without its problems, though: you can't full attack with the sword and you can't move after throwing it, because it only returns to the square you threw it from and only at the end of the round. Getting four of them would break the bank, and anyway you can only catch it if you have a hand free. So it's not a good idea unless the attack can deal an utterly ludicrous amount of damage, which it probably can't.

Jasdoif

2016-07-21, 06:37 PM

Roy should have tried to find ranged attacks/flight options way before he face the antilife-shell. Again, how was he planning to face a flying deployer of meteor showers?

What would you think after #442?Roy has a long history of not considering options that don't meet with approval of his worldview. The lacked of ranged weapon in favor of his sword isn't particularly different than the lack of intact melee weapon in favor of his broken sword, which Belkar attested to the ineffectiveness of all the way back in #146 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0146.html).

Also, what about that "Use Magic Device skill"? Does Haley know Magic? Or what does it mean?To activate a wand (such a wand with fly), you either need to be a member of a class that can cast the wand's spell, or succeed on a Use Magic Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) skill check. That was part of the point of 970 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), establishing that Haley had the skill since you can't even attempt the skill check without training.

I have a really hard time believing Roy would have put effort towards it. Imagine Eugene's commentary about Roy refusing to be a wizard, just to turn around and wave around wands pretending to be a wizard....

Mightymosy

2016-07-21, 06:43 PM

Roy has a long history of not considering options that don't meet with approval of his worldview. The lacked of ranged weapon in favor of his sword isn't particularly different than the lack of intact melee weapon in favor of his broken sword, which Belkar attested to the ineffectiveness of all the way back in #146 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0146.html).

Exactly. I wonder if and how that may play a role in the final chapter(s) of the comic? We will see :smallcool:

To activate a wand (such a wand with fly), you either need to be a member of a class that can cast the wand's spell, or succeed on a Use Magic Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) skill check. That was part of the point of 970 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), establishing that Haley had the skill since you can't even attempt the skill check without training.

I have a really hard time believing Roy would have put effort towards it. Imagine Eugene's commentary about Roy refusing to be a wizard, just to turn around and wave around wands pretending to be a wizard....
Thanks. That's a strange skill...I wonder what the fluff behind it is? Also, appearantly rogues get it but fighters don't?
As for Roy: Yes, I can imagine him choosing not to get it as you do.

Kish

2016-07-21, 06:54 PM

The reason for Use Magic Device skill is that thieves/rogues have always had some limited amount of magic item use, ranging from "can cast from scrolls with a failure chance" to "can gain the ability to use everything."

It's a class skill for rogues and bards, cross-class for every other base class. Haley gets 9 skill points plus her Intelligence bonus whenever she gains a level, and has the longest list of class skills in the game; Roy gets 3 skill points plus his Intelligence bonus whenever he gains a level, and has probably the shortest list of class skills in the game (The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str)).

(Elan gets 7 skill points minus his Intelligence penalty whenever he gains a level.)

A magic crossbow that fired silver bolts would be just as useful against Phyrnglsnx in mistform as in dwarf form. Not that it would make a lot of sense for Roy to get a crossbow rather than a longbow (or composite longbow, if he wanted to invest a lot of money into the ideal ranged weapon).

Mandor

2016-07-21, 07:40 PM

See, Roy was alllllmost there at the Godsmoot. He just needs to be on Green Fire, and then he can throw the sword and call it back to him, like a Jedi tossing his lightsaber!

/sarc (or is it?)

gooddragon1

2016-07-22, 06:49 AM

See, Roy was alllllmost there at the Godsmoot. He just needs to be on Green Fire, and then he can throw the sword and call it back to him, like a Jedi tossing his lightsaber!

/sarc (or is it?)

I don't know, it looked like he did something to the wall. Maybe the energy didn't do anything because it only affects undead?

Kish

2016-07-22, 07:35 AM

He drew a chalk target on the wall before he started this. No magic involved.

Rift_Wolf

2016-07-22, 07:53 AM

I'm getting annoyed thinking about this. If Roy gets a ranged attack out of his sword, it feels like the universe is rewarding his tunnel vision. Even Belkar is showing more adaptability to the current situation, making some spare stakes. Roy's plan to foil an enemy's tactic (which worked) is make his sword shoot fire (which it's not done up to this point) rather than see if anyone's got some spare thrown weapons.

Kish

2016-07-22, 08:02 AM

littlebum2002

2016-07-22, 09:24 AM

At this point I think I'm being trolled.

If you really want to go on, what use would a crossbow be against mistform-Durkula?

My point is that Roy should have planned for reaching enemies that were outside his sword range for a long time now, and now maybe even more, and if ranged attacks aren't or weren't available, I considered ways to fly as a reasonable alternative.

My point is that, right now, Durkula is a much bigger threat than Xykon. Xykon wants to take over the world, Durkula wants to destroy it.

Right now, Roy is ueless against the biggest threat he faces.

You suggested ideas that do not change that fact.

Thanks. That's a strange skill...I wonder what the fluff behind it is? Also, appearantly rogues get it but fighters don't?
As for Roy: Yes, I can imagine him choosing not to get it as you do.

Anyone can get any skill, it's just easier to get a Class Skill. But Ride is a cross-class skill for Elan and he still has ranks in it.

Think about it this way: any given level, Haley can get about ~8 ranks in Use Magical Device (UMD) if she wanted. She gets 6 skill points per level for being a rogue, and I'm guessing she has at least +2 to Intelligence, which gives her at least 8 skill points to use every level, and UMD only costs her 1 skill point due to it being a Rogue Class Skill.

Any given level, Roy can get about ~2 ranks in UMD. He gets 2 skill points per level for being a fighter, and I'm guessing he has at least +2 to Intelligence which gives him 4 skill points per level to use. However, since UMD is a cross class skill for fighters, it costs him 2 skill points to get 1 rank in UMD, so therefore he can only get 2 ranks per level.

So while anyone can get any skill, it is MUCH easier for some to get certain skills than others, which is why classes like Fighters don't usually use their limited skill points to get things like UMD.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/the-more-you-know-e1302859255588-50x50.gif

Mightymosy

2016-07-22, 10:35 AM

My point is that, right now, Durkula is a much bigger threat than Xykon. Xykon wants to take over the world, Durkula wants to destroy it.

Right now, Roy is ueless against the biggest threat he faces.

You suggested ideas that do not change that fact.

I will post it again in case you missed it:
A Roy with the ability to fly is in my eyes much more suited than a Roy who can't, in his fight against Xykon, and ALSO in a fight with Durkon.
It may not be the best counter against antilife shell in particular, but with flying ability Roy could at least
1) have better chances at fleeing an encounter he is about to lose
2) chase Durkula when he is about to lose and goes into mistform. At least I imagine that Roys magic sword will damage Durkula in mistform, when a silver crossbow bolt would do so.

At any rate I don't see the line of reason that prompted you to your previoues "gotcha" posting, and neither the "You suggested ideas that do not change that fact."

Who knows what additional spells Durkula has? He might have a protection from arrows spell like V and Z had.
Roy on the other hand would possibly need to learn to shoot with a crossbow.

Bottom line:
Roy is a melee fighter who up until now can only really hit things in sword range.
Roy has been beaten by a character who can fly and shoot meteors from the sky.
Roy has fought against an enemy who can turn to mist and fly away, and can cast a protective sphere which will halt Roy from getting too close.
Roy has to take into consideration that he will likely face either character again in this adventure story.
Roy's team is currently in an airship.

If you take these facts into consideration and still cannot see why I see some way of acquiring the ability to fly as strategically useful in addition or replacement to a ranged attack (depending what resources are available), then I give up. I can't spell it any more clearly, and if I'm perfectly honest I don't think that this has been the problem in the first place.

Anyone can get any skill, it's just easier to get a Class Skill. But Ride is a cross-class skill for Elan and he still has ranks in it.

Think about it this way: any given level, Haley can get about ~8 ranks in Use Magical Device (UMD) if she wanted. She gets 6 skill points per level for being a rogue, and I'm guessing she has at least +2 to Intelligence, which gives her at least 8 skill points to use every level, and UMD only costs her 1 skill point due to it being a Rogue Class Skill.

Any given level, Roy can get about ~2 ranks in UMD. He gets 2 skill points per level for being a fighter, and I'm guessing he has at least +2 to Intelligence which gives him 4 skill points per level to use. However, since UMD is a cross class skill for fighters, it costs him 2 skill points to get 1 rank in UMD, so therefore he can only get 2 ranks per level.

So while anyone can get any skill, it is MUCH easier for some to get certain skills than others, which is why classes like Fighters don't usually use their limited skill points to get things like UMD.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/the-more-you-know-e1302859255588-50x50.gif

I still wonder what the fluff behind that ability is. "Use Magic Device" sounds strangely general and specific at the same time to me. Can you use any kind of magical device with that ability? As long as it is magical? How is that supposed to work, and why can rogues do it more easily than fighters? Both don't have magic as such, or do they?

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-22, 10:45 AM

Who knows what additional spells Durkula has? He might have a protection from arrows spell like V and Z had.
Protection from arrows is not on the Cleric spell list and not in any core domain. Even if it was, it doesn't matter, because vampire DR (10/silver and magic) is better than the DR 10/magic that protection from arrows provides. To the larger point, Durkon knows the entire Cleric spell list, as well as the spells on his domain list, as well as spells he's researched like protection from daylight. No more, no less. And spell research isn't the wild card it might seem. Durkon took days or weeks to research protection from daylight, and that's when he had a template to work from and hours of uninterrupted time. Now he's on a clock.

Roy on the other hand would possibly need to learn to shoot with a crossbow.
Fighters are automatically proficient with crossbows. So is just about every PC class.

Bottom line:
Roy is the main character in a fairly standard epic. He'll succeed eventually, and it doesn't much matter how.

Mightymosy

2016-07-22, 10:54 AM

Protection from arrows is not on the Cleric spell list and not in any core domain. Even if it was, it doesn't matter, because vampire DR (10/silver and magic) is better than the DR 10/magic that protection from arrows provides. To the larger point, Durkon knows the entire Cleric spell list, as well as the spells on his domain list, as well as spells he's researched like protection from daylight. No more, no less. And spell research isn't the wild card it might seem. Durkon took days or weeks to research protection from daylight, and that's when he had a template to work from and hours of uninterrupted time. Now he's on a clock.

Fighters are automatically proficient with crossbows. So is just about every PC class.

Roy is the main character in a fairly standard epic. He'll succeed eventually, and it doesn't much matter how.

About the D&D rules, ok, whatever you say. I don't play that game.
So, don't clerics have an equivalent spell to protection from arrows which would help Durkula? Like "Stoneskin" which the druid used?
My point was that while flying might be countered with antilife shell, but a crossbow with silver bolts might just as easily be countered by another cleric spell I don't know about.

But don't you think it matters how Roy succeeds?
I would personally find more satisfaction if Roy solved the problem he is facing right now (either with ranged attacks or with flying or with whatever plan he comes up with) than if he just ignored the problem and things solved themselves "because he is the protagonist".

ChillerInstinct

2016-07-22, 11:03 AM

Regarding flight: Worth noting that this is one of the wands Haley picked up at Tinkertown. More to the point Haley was able to use it to fly AND carry Bandana (I don't know the rules for this so I can't say with certainly if she could carry Roy as well). Not to mention V IS capable of flight AND carrying Roy at the same time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html) So assuming they don't get completely locked out of the fight, Roy does, indeed, have options to give chase if Mistform becomes an issue.

I don't think Roy is going to try to fight him mano-a-mano, either. Let's be entirely honest, the only reason Roy didn't get totally wiped out in the duel at the Godsmoot is because the HPoH got very, VERY sloppy and because he didn't know much about what Roy's sword was capable of. Now that he's had a close call, I wouldn't expect it to happen again.

Quild

2016-07-22, 11:13 AM

Peelee

2016-07-22, 11:14 AM

About the D&D rules, ok, whatever you say. I don't play that game.

Not to shut you down or anything, but a bit of advice: the comic is based on D&D rules. If you want to try to argue for something to happen, anything ability-based is going to revolve around a solid grounding in said rules. If you are unfamiliar with them, you're going to constantly be flailing because you're on very unsteady ground. You're likely better off arguing your points from a narrative base, but that would render you unable to make arguments such as "flight is better than range overall," for instance (since, in D&D, you can have all the flight you want, but you're never going to have any benefits from potential cover, and you still need range, which we know the enemy certainly does; this poses significant disadvantages, if only one or the other are to be considered).

Jasdoif

2016-07-22, 11:28 AM

Roy should learn to rely on the others rather than trying to be a Jack of all trades.Is he supposed to rely on them to help him fight a vampire, or is he supposed to rely on them to keep a different vampire from robbing them of their teleportation ability?

This is probably not the shining moment of party competence that will encourage Roy to rely on them more.

Mightymosy

2016-07-22, 11:49 AM

Not to shut you down or anything, but a bit of advice: the comic is based on D&D rules. If you want to try to argue for something to happen, anything ability-based is going to revolve around a solid grounding in said rules. If you are unfamiliar with them, you're going to constantly be flailing because you're on very unsteady ground. You're likely better off arguing your points from a narrative base, but that would render you unable to make arguments such as "flight is better than range overall," for instance (since, in D&D, you can have all the flight you want, but you're never going to have any benefits from potential cover, and you still need range, which we know the enemy certainly does; this poses significant disadvantages, if only one or the other are to be considered).

1. I thought the comic was based more on story than on D&D rules anyway.
2. I didn't try to argue
3. I didn't try to argue about D&D rules. I suggested that flying may be a good alternative/extra ability for Roy to acquire for upcoming fights and in my eyes should have been a strategic consideration for a long time (after being thrown down from the sky by Xykon). Then I was shut down because of...honestly I still don't know what caused people to take position other than that rules issues were not particularly mentioned.

Consider Redcloak's brother, another melee character. In order to take down a flying Xykon, he flew up. Without flying, he couldn't have tried at all.

Consider Belkar: He was dominated and thrown down from the airship a couple times. Do defend, he tried to protect from the domination, which didn't work out so well at least at first, so he bought an item that let him at least survive the fall - note that something that made him flying would have better here as well, but maybe he couldn't get anything like boots of flying.

It's okay if you people want to go all-out deep strategic D&D discussion. I never tried to win, or even fight that battle. I made a suggestion that was in my eyes pretty reasonable from what the comic provided thus far.

Mightymosy

2016-07-22, 11:51 AM

Jasdoif

2016-07-22, 12:04 PM

1. I thought the comic was based more on story than on D&D rules anyway.Well, if you happen to want the most "official" explanation....

As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise. Because that's sort of how I write it; I use the D&D rules when they fit into the story (and I remember them), and break them when they don't. Thus, you can still extrapolate D&D stats of the characters unless I show something that simply defies the game as written—like Roy casting a fireball. And you can still make predictions about what might happen in the future as if it were all going to unfold according to the D&D rules, as long as you understand that hey, maybe I might fudge that one. And then don't complain if I do.So as you can imagine, there's still a lot of discussion/debate/argument over where the exceptions are or could lie. (And no, Roy hasn't actually cast a fireball.)

Peelee

2016-07-22, 12:10 PM

1. I thought the comic was based more on story than on D&D rules anyway.
2. I didn't try to argue
3. I didn't try to argue about D&D rules. I suggested that flying may be a good alternative/extra ability for Roy to acquire for upcoming fights and in my eyes should have been a strategic consideration for a long time (after being thrown down from the sky by Xykon). Then I was shut down because of...honestly I still don't know what caused people to take position other than that rules issues were not particularly mentioned.

Consider Redcloak's brother, another melee character. In order to take down a flying Xykon, he flew up. Without flying, he couldn't have tried at all.

Consider Belkar: He was dominated and thrown down from the airship a couple times. Do defend, he tried to protect from the domination, which didn't work out so well at least at first, so he bought an item that let him at least survive the fall - note that something that made him flying would have better here as well, but maybe he couldn't get anything like boots of flying.

It's okay if you people want to go all-out deep strategic D&D discussion. I never tried to win, or even fight that battle. I made a suggestion that was in my eyes pretty reasonable from what the comic provided thus far.

1.) It's based on both. As per the Giant:
Everything is D&D until proven otherwise.

2.) I think you misunderstand my use of "argue." In this context, it means to put forth your assertion. There are no negative connotations here. As soon as you started to talk about how you think flight could be useful, you were making an argument, and arguing for it. There is nothing at all wrong or bad about this.

3.) Since the comic is D&D based, once you start talking about an ability, you are inherently talking about how that ability works in the D&D ruleset (unless, of course, the comic deviates; however, assuming deviation without any indication is an exercise in futility, since that could be done about literally anything). Once you start talking about how Roy could start flying as compared to getting a ranged attack, the way flying and ranged attacks interact in the D&D ruleset matter. You are not being shut down, so much as you are being corrected that gaining flight would be not only more difficult for Roy than for others, but also that it would not necessarily provide the strategic advantages that you think it would.

Now, as to your assertion that flight would be generally useful regardless. Yes. I don't think anyone would argue against that. Any character in the comic would objectively be better if they could fly as well. But what started Roy on his quest for ranged attacks was the Vampire popping the Antilife Shell. He had to be carried by Celia because he couldn't fly. He had to borrow Belkar's Ring of Jumping, because he couldn't fly. He got killed because he couldn't fly. After all that, flying still doesn't really matter too much to him, whereas ranged attacks do. That's what he's looking for. We could stand around all day talking about how Roy could use flight, or Redcloak could use flight, or the dirt farmers could use flight, but that's completely ignoring what Roy is looking to do.

It is an entirely reasonable suggestion, but it's also very generic, and outside the scope of Roy's stated goal.

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-22, 12:13 PM

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-22, 12:15 PM

(And no, Roy hasn't actually cast a fireball.)
Give it time.

Jasdoif

2016-07-22, 12:18 PM

Give it time.If Roy gets a ranged attack out of his sword, I will not be surprised if it takes the form of an orb of green flames.

Peelee

2016-07-22, 12:33 PM

If Roy gets a ranged attack out of his sword, I will not be surprised if it takes the form of an orb of green flames.

My money's on a more staight beam of sorts. A short one, dissimilar to the rays or lightning. Somewhat like the blasters in Star Wars, but more nebulous and formless.

The Artisan

2016-07-22, 12:41 PM

If Roy gets a ranged attack out of his sword, I will not be surprised if it takes the form of an orb of green flames.

I am assuming it will be a line of effect rather than an AoE. I also assume it will mostly be effective against undead, since that is what the glowy effect is mostly supposed to be according to the smith... So Greg and Xykon.

I also took the healing thing as probably restoring any level drain that Greg did. Does that seem off base?

Jasdoif

2016-07-22, 12:48 PM

My money's on a more staight beam of sorts. A short one, dissimilar to the rays or lightning. Somewhat like the blasters in Star Wars, but more nebulous and formless.Like...eldritch blast?

I am assuming it will be a line of effect rather than an AoE.So do I. Orbs of fire can be ranged attacks instead of area-of-effect, you know :smalltongue:

Mightymosy

2016-07-22, 12:49 PM

1.) It's based on both. As per the Giant:

2.) I think you misunderstand my use of "argue." In this context, it means to put forth your assertion. There are no negative connotations here. As soon as you started to talk about how you think flight could be useful, you were making an argument, and arguing for it. There is nothing at all wrong or bad about this.

3.) Since the comic is D&D based, once you start talking about an ability, you are inherently talking about how that ability works in the D&D ruleset (unless, of course, the comic deviates; however, assuming deviation without any indication is an exercise in futility, since that could be done about literally anything). Once you start talking about how Roy could start flying as compared to getting a ranged attack, the way flying and ranged attacks interact in the D&D ruleset matter. You are not being shut down, so much as you are being corrected that gaining flight would be not only more difficult for Roy than for others, but also that it would not necessarily provide the strategic advantages that you think it would.

Now, as to your assertion that flight would be generally useful regardless. Yes. I don't think anyone would argue against that. Any character in the comic would objectively be better if they could fly as well. But what started Roy on his quest for ranged attacks was the Vampire popping the Antilife Shell. He had to be carried by Celia because he couldn't fly. He had to borrow Belkar's Ring of Jumping, because he couldn't fly. He got killed because he couldn't fly. After all that, flying still doesn't really matter too much to him, whereas ranged attacks do. That's what he's looking for. We could stand around all day talking about how Roy could use flight, or Redcloak could use flight, or the dirt farmers could use flight, but that's completely ignoring what Roy is looking to do.

It is an entirely reasonable suggestion, but it's also very generic, and outside the scope of Roy's stated goal.

How would you read this:

So you want Roy to be useful in the fight against the creature that wants to take over the world, and useless in the fight against the creature that wants to destroy the world. Gotcha.
?

About the scope of Roy's goals: Roy's main goal is saving the world, which currently means stopping Xykon and Durkula (and Recloak, but I don't know if Roy realises this).

My example from Start of Darkness shows that flying might be very useful in dealing with Xykon, and I still think it might come up being useful in a fight with Durkula, especially so long as an airship is involved from which Roy can be thrown down from, like Belkar.
Flying means he can hit things with his sword, which is probably his best way of dealing damage right now.

Maybe it would even be worth it, strategically, to get UMD, even if is costly for him as a fighter?
I am not against people making good arguments, but the way my suggestions were treated at first didn't seem that way at all.

The Artisan

2016-07-22, 12:57 PM

So do I. Orbs of fire can be ranged attacks instead of area-of-effect, you know :smalltongue:

Ya know, in reading your response I had totally forgotten that 'Orb of Fire' is actually a spell name... I was just taking that statement to mean 'fireball' (ya know, an orb made of fire). Orb of Fire is actually one of my favorite line of effect spells, especially since I played with a DM who allowed gravity to affect it (and Orb of Acid)... Nothing spells victory like dropping a rolling fire orb down a droughted hill in the midst of some trolls.

Peelee

2016-07-22, 01:19 PM

Like...eldritch blast?
Was it used in comic before? I'm drawing a blank.

How would you read this:

?

About the scope of Roy's goals: Roy's main goal is saving the world, which currently means stopping Xykon and Durkula (and Recloak, but I don't know if Roy realises this).

My example from Start of Darkness shows that flying might be very useful in dealing with Xykon, and I still think it might come up being useful in a fight with Durkula, especially so long as an airship is involved from which Roy can be thrown down from, like Belkar.
Flying means he can hit things with his sword, which is probably his best way of dealing damage right now.

Maybe it would even be worth it, strategically, to get UMD, even if is costly for him as a fighter?
I am not against people making good arguments, but the way my suggestions were treated at first didn't seem that way at all.

I don't see the problem with littlebum's comment, honestly. He reframed your question in an attempt to make you see that your solution did not fit with the immediate threat.

We know that the Vampire and his minions fled to the Dwarven lands. We also know that the Dwarves live underground, and little child Durkon had to ask what the sky was, because he'd never seen it before. We can assume, with reasonable certainty, that being tossed off the airship will not be an issue when dealing with the vampires.

We also see Roy studying the book that describes the powers and abilities of his sword, and how to harness them. He's already drawn a target on the wall, and fully expects to be able to use some form of ranged attack stemming from the sword's powers. This leads us to two likely conclusions: either Roy is delusional and expects things to happen that he has no reason to, or Roy is aware from his study that the sword has a ranged attack, and is trying to harness it. He doesn't get it immediately, because the comic is not a video game; he has to learn how to master it, and comic 1045 is showing that it takes time. Once he is able to harness that ability, he will be able to hit far away things with his sword, and the flying turns back into a generalized good-for-absolutely-everyone ability.

Also, his ability to learn to fly at this point is significantly hampered. It'd be like discovering that saving money in a compounding interest account is worth doing, and starting to pump money in there, at age 55. You're just not gonna have the same returns as you would if you had started earlier, and it probably won't be enough to get by once you start needing it. He would need to throw a significant amount of skill points into a cross-class skill (meaning he needs double the skill points to achieve the same rank as if it were a class skill), and he doesn't get very many to begin with. And all the ones he's been getting every level have almost certainly not been going into Use Magic Device, so he'd be starting from scratch. Short version, it's doable, but incredibly inefficient.

Honestly, I wasn't paying much attention in the beginning, so I don't know if there was more snark than warranted, but I don't think anyone was saying "that's a stupid idea" so much as they were saying "that doesn't solve the problem he's trying to solve."

Jasdoif

2016-07-22, 01:27 PM

Was it used in comic before? I'm drawing a blank.Yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html), although it's drawn more opaquely than most of the art I've seen (there wasn't anything behind it on my avatar, so I didn't bother with transparency).

This leads us to two likely conclusions: either Roy is delusional and expects things to happen that he has no reason to, or Roy is aware from his study that the sword has a ranged attack, and is trying to harness it.I was going for "Roy is aware from his study that weapons of legacy like his sword could have a ranged attack, and he is attempting to evoke it to see if his does", myself.

Mightymosy

2016-07-22, 01:28 PM

Was it used in comic before? I'm drawing a blank.

I don't see the problem with littlebum's comment, honestly. He reframed your question in an attempt to make you see that your solution did not fit with the immediate threat.

We know that the Vampire and his minions fled to the Dwarven lands. We also know that the Dwarves live underground, and little child Durkon had to ask what the sky was, because he'd never seen it before. We can assume, with reasonable certainty, that being tossed off the airship will not be an issue when dealing with the vampires.

We also see Roy studying the book that describes the powers and abilities of his sword, and how to harness them. He's already drawn a target on the wall, and fully expects to be able to use some form of ranged attack stemming from the sword's powers. This leads us to two likely conclusions: either Roy is delusional and expects things to happen that he has no reason to, or Roy is aware from his study that the sword has a ranged attack, and is trying to harness it. He doesn't get it immediately, because the comic is not a video game; he has to learn how to master it, and comic 1045 is showing that it takes time. Once he is able to harness that ability, he will be able to hit far away things with his sword, and the flying turns back into a generalized good-for-absolutely-everyone ability.

Also, his ability to learn to fly at this point is significantly hampered. It'd be like discovering that saving money in a compounding interest account is worth doing, and starting to pump money in there, at age 55. You're just not gonna have the same returns as you would if you had started earlier, and it probably won't be enough to get by once you start needing it. He would need to throw a significant amount of skill points into a cross-class skill (meaning he needs double the skill points to achieve the same rank as if it were a class skill), and he doesn't get very many to begin with. And all the ones he's been getting every level have almost certainly not been going into Use Magic Device, so he'd be starting from scratch. Short version, it's doable, but incredibly inefficient.

Honestly, I wasn't paying much attention in the beginning, so I don't know if there was more snark than warranted, but I don't think anyone was saying "that's a stupid idea" so much as they were saying "that doesn't solve the problem he's trying to solve."

The OP was this:

If Roy needed SO DESPERATELY a Ranged Attack, why didn't he ever tough about buying a bow?
A Composite Longbow in his hands would deal a good punch.

He could even buy a few javelins, if Bows aren't his style!!

That's why my suggestion of using flight in addition or instead of a ranged attack was focused on Xykon as well as Durkula (note the "why didn't he ever" in the OP)

Littlebum's comment, apart from being short and not helpful at all, came even after I acknowledged that flying wouldn't be the best solution against antilife shield but should be useful in general against Durkula, on an airship, and against Xykon a long time ago. So how should I have interpreted it?

You are right that underground flying will likely not be hot. But we don't know about where exactly conflicts may take place. Even a raid on the Mechane is possible, if unlikely.

EDIT: Please note, that the first comic strip with the new art (#947), in dwarven land, even contains a situation that shows how flying might be useful ;-)

Snails

2016-07-22, 01:31 PM

UMD is potentially very useful, but probably not for Roy. The Order is sufficiently high in level and wealth that powerful combinations are available to those who optimize. Being the Order, that is not going to happen.

Roy 15th? level: 9 ranks + 2? for Cha = +11
Haley 15th? leve: 18 ranks + 2? for Cha = +20 (perfect for using wands, or perhaps low level scrolls)
Elan 15th? level: 18 ranks +7? for Cha = +25

BTW, there are synergy bonuses and other bonuses available for scroll reading, so Elan could be reading 5th and 6th level divine or arcane spells from scrolls without a chance of failure. (DC 29, DC 31, respectively). But that is just not the kind of thing Elan would do, because it requires too much careful planning.

Technically speaking, Roy could bypass the Antilife Shell by becoming Large and moving to the optimal location to reach HPoH. There are lots of ways to increase size from Medium to Large. I do not think the Giant will have the main protagonist employ a bit of ruleslawyering to win this battle, though.

nleseul

2016-07-22, 01:39 PM

Let's put it this way.

The vampire knows in detail what Roy's abilities and weaknesses are, through Durkon. He chose to prepare antilife shell to exploit the fact that Roy isn't good with ranged weapons and never carries them. If Roy did carry a bow or javelins, then the vampire would simply have chosen and prepared a different tactic to stall him.

SaintRidley

2016-07-22, 03:35 PM

Think about it this way: any given level, Haley can get about ~8 ranks in Use Magical Device (UMD) if she wanted. She gets 6 skill points per level for being a rogue, and I'm guessing she has at least +2 to Intelligence, which gives her at least 8 skill points to use every level, and UMD only costs her 1 skill point due to it being a Rogue Class Skill.

Not quite. Skills have a max rank cap of your level +3 (for skills you have as class skills). If Haley has it maxed out, she can only add one rank to it per level.

And mightymosy, we don't have to speculate what spells Durkon has. We know exactly what spells he has. Here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm) the list (take off the 9th level spells, probably 8th level as well, since he doesn't have access to those). And add Mass Death Ward and Protection from Daylight. You may not care about the D&D rules, but they're rather useful to understanding the comic.

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-22, 04:00 PM

Here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm) the list (take off the 9th level spells, since he doesn't have access to those)
(NB: he almost certainly doesn't have 8th-level spells either. Durkon never demonstrated 8th-level spells before dying - mass death ward is 7th-level in the comic - and since being vamped has an ECL of 22. To get 8th-level spells he'd need to level up to Cleric 15, ECL 23, and we know from Malack how hard that is.)

SaintRidley

2016-07-22, 04:19 PM

My bad. Forgot Holy Word was only 7th level.

ChillerInstinct

2016-07-22, 04:40 PM

My bad. Forgot Holy Word was only 7th level.

Which, coincidentally, means the HPoH could be expected to run Blasphemy and/or Dictum. I don't remember if Vampirism affects caster level (if it doesn't, the Geekery thread has Durkon pegged as a level 14 with all in Cleric). If it doesn't, fortunately for the Order the Geekery thread has him pegged at Level 14-- tied only with Roy as the lowest level character in the party and leaving everyone but Roy immune to the affects of those spells. If it does... well, those things could be devastating, since Blasphemy would at least deafen everyone but Belkar and Dictum would do the same to everyone but Roy.

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-22, 05:07 PM

I don't remember if Vampirism affects caster level
It doesn't. But magic items could.

Vinyadan

2016-07-22, 05:30 PM

Should I expand on the phallic theme of launching projectiles with the sword?

littlebum2002

2016-07-22, 07:40 PM

The OP was this:

That's why my suggestion of using flight in addition or instead of a ranged attack was focused on Xykon as well as Durkula (note the "why didn't he ever" in the OP)

Littlebum's comment, apart from being short and not helpful at all, came even after I acknowledged that flying wouldn't be the best solution against antilife shield but should be useful in general against Durkula, on an airship, and against Xykon a long time ago. So how should I have interpreted it?

You are right that underground flying will likely not be hot. But we don't know about where exactly conflicts may take place. Even a raid on the Mechane is possible, if unlikely.

EDIT: Please note, that the first comic strip with the new art (#947), in dwarven land, even contains a situation that shows how flying might be useful ;-)

The OP is based on a comment Roy made. This comment was a direct result of his ineptitude with the antilife shell. So the entire basis of this thread is "Why didn't Roy have a way of fighting through the antilife shell?"

Your suggestion, while correct, was off topic for this thread because this thread is specifically about Roy realizing he could not fight through an antilife shell. Sure, Roy would be awesome with a Fly spell from V, but Elan would be awesome with a Spiked Chain, too. What do those two have in common? Both are entirely correct, and both are irrelevant to this particular conversation.

If you want you could create a thread of "things the Order could do to be more OP", and your suggestions (aside from the Wand, which is understandable bc they're confusing as hell) would be very well appreciated.

Kish

2016-07-23, 12:25 AM

Mightymosy

2016-07-23, 03:30 AM

You got a negative reaction because you posted, in a thread about Roy getting a ranged attack, ways he could get flight as if they were addressing anything anyone else had said. And didn't clarify that this was based on "I think flight is something he should be more worried about than a ranged attack" until multiple people went wait, what, that's not a ranged attack at all. And while I am not greatly invested in this thread's purpose I still do not understand the ongoing desire to hijack it to talk about flight instead of ranged attacks instead of starting a thread to talk about how Roy needs a means of on-demand flight. So yeah.

I don't have any desire to hijack the thread. I made a quick suggestion, after that I was mostly responding to criticism that couldn't be called constructive I think, and asking about D&D rules. Note that I even mentioned, in response to you, that if you all wanted to discuss ranged attacks only, and not strategical alternatives to the problem as a whole, I wouldn't bother to further talk about flying.

When I melee fighter thinks about getting a ranged attack, for me it is a simple assumption that he wants to hit things he can't reach. In this specific example, we even know Roy failed to hit Xykon because he flew away, and died because he couldn't fly himself. Then people talked about how Roy could make is sword returning like a boomerang. Instead of throwing the sword, why not just get flying boots and fly himself towards the enemy to hit enemies with said sword?

Kish, in my eyes you seem to be one of the most intelligent and sensible members of the forum, from all threads I read so far. I seriously would not have thought and still wouldn't think that this connection wouldn't seem anything but obvious to you.

Mightymosy

2016-07-23, 03:39 AM

The OP is based on a comment Roy made. This comment was a direct result of his ineptitude with the antilife shell. So the entire basis of this thread is "Why didn't Roy have a way of fighting through the antilife shell?"

Your suggestion, while correct, was off topic for this thread because this thread is specifically about Roy realizing he could not fight through an antilife shell. Sure, Roy would be awesome with a Fly spell from V, but Elan would be awesome with a Spiked Chain, too. What do those two have in common? Both are entirely correct, and both are irrelevant to this particular conversation.

If you want you could create a thread of "things the Order could do to be more OP", and your suggestions (aside from the Wand, which is understandable bc they're confusing as hell) would be very well appreciated.

Sorry, but the topic doesn't mention any antilife shell.
It reads: "What I need is a ranged attack".
In the OP, no antilife shell is mentioned either.
Please note the OP asks:
"If Roy needed SO DESPERATELY a Ranged Attack, why didn't he ever tough about buying a bow? "
The word ever indicates that the OP wonders not only about the antilife shell situation, but also the time before that.
Which is very reasonable if you just read the whole comic. Roy lacked a ranged weapon or alternate way to reach targets at range before. Belkar even called it out for him. And I repeatedly mentioned relevant comic scenes which you all just seem to ignore.

I don't wish to discuss this any further because I am already being accused of "thread-hijacking", but in contrast to your example with Elan, my initial post here mentioned an alternative way for Roy get something he wanted (hitting enemies out of his range), even though not in the way the OP proposed. How that has anything to do with Elan, or overpowering the OotS in general, is beyond me.

Mightymosy

2016-07-23, 03:46 AM

Not quite. Skills have a max rank cap of your level +3 (for skills you have as class skills). If Haley has it maxed out, she can only add one rank to it per level.

And mightymosy, we don't have to speculate what spells Durkon has. We know exactly what spells he has. Here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm) the list (take off the 9th level spells, probably 8th level as well, since he doesn't have access to those). And add Mass Death Ward and Protection from Daylight. You may not care about the D&D rules, but they're rather useful to understanding the comic.

Thanks! That's interesting.

So Durkula could use Wind Wall (3rd level) to defend against ranged attacks?

factotum

2016-07-23, 07:26 AM

So Durkula could use Wind Wall (3rd level) to defend against ranged attacks?

Physical ranged attacks such as from a bow or crossbow, yes. Not so much magical ranged attacks, like a wizard's fireball or whatever Roy is trying to get his sword to do.

Roland Itiative

2016-07-23, 08:09 AM

?? As far as I can recall, the archetypical D&D returning weapon is the Dwarven Thrower, which was a warhammer which in the hands of a dwarf with both gauntlets of ogre power and a belt of giant strength, returned magically to the thrower. Returning hammers are very much core; swords not so much.

Am I the only one that imagined how ironic it would be for Durkula to be done in by a weapon that's clearly a dwarven version of mjolnir after reading this? :P

Rift_Wolf

2016-07-23, 09:02 AM

Let's not make any assumptions about where Rich is going with this yet.

(Though I will note that "anyone got some spare magic silver thrown weapons?" is a rather different question from "anyone got some spare thrown weapons?")

I'm sure Rich will come up with a brilliant way of making such a revelation satisfying. It's just... rather than attending to the reality of a situation, Roy is wishing for an event in the hopes his myopia pays off. Maybe I'm misreading the situation. Maybe Roy has some other tactical consideration. We'll see.

khadgar567

2016-07-23, 12:33 PM

is anyone have more knowledge about green hilt sword from my research( basicly look up weapons of legacy) sword probably has
cure spell (self) and he tries to unlock its range option which magic missile( menu a or d), fireball or lightning bolt( I dont think he gets that) (menu b or e) acid arrow or scorching ray ( menu c) for his lesser slot magic missile
he probably wants to get dispel magic and fly again from menu c and or spell storing minor from menu e( so one of the guys in team can lend him a hand
What's your legacy weapon build for him?
by the way he might get levels in legacy champion( unintentional or other wise)

skim172

2016-07-23, 02:53 PM

ChillerInstinct

2016-07-23, 03:52 PM

Y'know, we all seem to be thinking of this in terms of the Zelda sword.

Actually, I'm thinking of something more like a whip. Energy shoots out past the hilt in a steady stream enveloping the blade, and would probably move through the air with a very... "floaty" gravity. Dragon symbolism optional.

Alternatively, some sort of anime-style "razor wind" where Roy would make the swipes and an energy beam roughly the size of the swing's arc keeps going until it fades away or hits something.

Not that there's anything wrong with the Zelda-style sword beam, of course. It's easier to draw, probably easier to use, and probably more versatile in designing fight scenes with it in mind. Just wasn't what came to mind for me. :P

factotum

2016-07-23, 05:09 PM

Perhaps Eugene is here to reveal that the sword has always had a ranged attack

Pretty unlikely, for two main reasons: firstly, Eugene was a wizard and didn't care in the slightest about his father's pointy bit of metal that was hanging on the wall, and secondly, the whole "lights up with green fire" thing that Roy is trying to train was explicitly an effect added when the sword was reforged using the starmetal they found in the black dragon's lair, not something the sword has always done.

AuthorGirl

2016-07-23, 10:42 PM

AuthorGirl

2016-07-23, 10:43 PM

Actually, I'm thinking of something more like a whip. Energy shoots out past the hilt in a steady stream enveloping the blade, and would probably move through the air with a very... "floaty" gravity. Dragon symbolism optional.

Alternatively, some sort of anime-style "razor wind" where Roy would make the swipes and an energy beam roughly the size of the swing's arc keeps going until it fades away or hits something.

Not that there's anything wrong with the Zelda-style sword beam, of course. It's easier to draw, probably easier to use, and probably more versatile in designing fight scenes with it in mind. Just wasn't what came to mind for me. :P

Hey, uh, by the way, the thing about halflings? Two words for ya: The Hobbit.

Sylian

2016-07-24, 07:12 AM

Another reason why Roy might want a ranged attack: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1004.html

Mightymosy

2016-07-24, 11:39 AM

Y'know, we all seem to be thinking of this in terms of the Zelda sword.

Perhaps Eugene is here to reveal that the sword has always had a ranged attack, and if they hadn't always been bickering, he could've told him that all Roy needs to do is press the little button and the sword transforms into a laser machinegun.

Roy will be annoyed, they'll get into an argument, and so Eugene will depart in a huff before letting Roy know about the sword's jetpack mode.

I have always been a bit annoyed by the Zelda sword ability. How good is the shooting ability when it only works while you are at (almost) full health? It would have been way cooler to play with when it activated as a last-ditch-effort when you are low on health :smallsmile:

Are there actual rules for the sword Roy has? I thought it was some made up stuff for the comic, since it is the "Greenhilt Sword".

KorvinStarmast

2016-07-24, 01:28 PM

My point is that, right now, Durkula is a much bigger threat than Xykon. Xykon wants to take over the world, Durkula wants to destroy it.
While I am glad you raised this point, I am disappointed that it needed to be raised.

Plus, we in the audience know that there is a delaying action on Xykon being applied by O'Chul, Lien, and somewhat MiTD.

@Vinyadan

Should I expand on the phallic theme of launching projectiles with the sword?
Nah, leave that low brow stuff to Belkar and Eugene. :smalltongue:

?? As far as I can recall, the archetypical D&D returning weapon is the Dwarven Thrower, which was a warhammer which in the hands of a dwarf with both gauntlets of ogre power and a belt of giant strength, returned magically to the thrower. Returning hammers are very much core; swords not so much. How it came about
1. First, there was the Dwarven Thrower returning hammer (OD&D)
2. Then, there was an artifact that had, among other things, the "returning thrower feature" (OD&D suppl Edritch Wizardry, Thor's hammer)
3. Then, in 1e, there is the magic item that takes the belt, gloves, hammer as a "set item" that includes returning and other skills, which is a scaled down version of Thors hammer, but IIRC the regular "returning dwarven thrower" that didn't need to be a "set" was still in the DMG list of magic items.

As each edition has come out, variations on that same themes have been popular enough to remain.
Shorter version: the special dwarf returning hammer started it, and then someone came up with the idea for a set.

goodpeople25

2016-07-24, 02:05 PM

I have always been a bit annoyed by the Zelda sword ability. How good is the shooting ability when it only works while you are at (almost) full health? It would have been way cooler to play with when it activated as a last-ditch-effort when you are low on health :smallsmile:.
Have you played minish cap? Because there is an unlockable ability in that game that lets you shoot beams at low (pretty sure it's 1 heart) health as well as when you're at full health.

Though I'm fine with the full health thing, tbh I think we need a few more well known examples since low health attacks seem to have become the go to thought.

InvisibleBison

2016-07-24, 02:29 PM

Are there actual rules for the sword Roy has? I thought it was some made up stuff for the comic, since it is the "Greenhilt Sword".

There are rules for "Weapons of Legacy" in D&D 3.5, but I'd be surprised if the Giant adhered to them. As I understand, he doesn't actually stat out any of the characters that show up in the strip, so why would he do so for a sword, especially when doing so might make it harder for him to tell the story he wants to tell?

Mightymosy

2016-07-24, 03:08 PM

Have you played minish cap? Because there is an unlockable ability in that game that lets you shoot beams at low (pretty sure it's 1 heart) health as well as when you're at full health.

Though I'm fine with the full health thing, tbh I think we need a few more well known examples since low health attacks seem to have become the go to thought.

I only played the Gameboy Zelda game, Link's awakening. Is that the same game you are talking about? If so: Oopsie, where can you get that sword upgrade you are talking about? I must have missed it :smallredface:

Mightymosy

2016-07-24, 03:10 PM

Peelee

2016-07-24, 03:33 PM

Yeah, maybe not stat out entirely, but if the book mentions how Roy could shoot with his sword I need to know! :smallbiggrin:

I believe the Giant has said something to the effect of, "from hereon out, as many new classes or abilities as possible will be effectively homebrewed ones, so no one can say boo of it's used 'wrong.'"

So i don't think it's gonna be much help there.

Mightymosy

2016-07-24, 05:24 PM

I believe the Giant has said something to the effect of, "from hereon out, as many new classes or abilities as possible will be effectively homebrewed ones, so no one can say boo of it's used 'wrong.'"

So i don't think it's gonna be much help there.

Not even for a try? :smallfrown:

khadgar567

2016-07-25, 01:08 AM

I have always been a bit annoyed by the Zelda sword ability. How good is the shooting ability when it only works while you are at (almost) full health? It would have been way cooler to play with when it activated as a last-ditch-effort when you are low on health :smallsmile:

Are there actual rules for the sword Roy has? I thought it was some made up stuff for the comic, since it is the "Greenhilt Sword".
its probably custom legacy item cuz I checked the book and its not in it

by the way for roys ranged abilities check my previous post

Snails

2016-07-25, 01:39 AM

There are rules for "Weapons of Legacy" in D&D 3.5, but I'd be surprised if the Giant adhered to them. As I understand, he doesn't actually stat out any of the characters that show up in the strip, so why would he do so for a sword, especially when doing so might make it harder for him to tell the story he wants to tell?

The Giant adheres to the Core rules sufficiently to achieve suspension of disbelief for his universe with its peculiar metaphysics. But he most certainly bends the Core rules at times to tell his story more effectively. I do not see that adhering to non-Core rules actually buys him anything at all. I am sure the Giant personally knows lots of non-Core material, but compliance is going to be a happy accident -- it just is not important to him.

MesiDoomstalker

2016-07-25, 02:21 AM

Not even for a try? :smallfrown:

Well, the Weapon of Legacy rules are all about making custom magic items, like the Greenhilt Sword, who do awesome fantastical things that Fantasy Epic stories always have their magical mcguffin do. There is sufficient variety of effects one could make a sword that does pretty much anything (though not in the same sword). A ranged option is certainly possible (though likely limited usages).

Domino Quartz

2016-07-25, 02:53 AM

Well, the Weapon of Legacy rules are all about making custom magic items, like the Greenhilt Sword, who do awesome fantastical things that Fantasy Epic stories always have their magical mcguffin do. There is sufficient variety of effects one could make a sword that does pretty much anything (though not in the same sword). A ranged option is certainly possible (though likely limited usages).

I don't know why, but I read your last few words as "unlimited sausages."

Quild

2016-07-25, 04:16 AM

Is he supposed to rely on them to help him fight a vampire, or is he supposed to rely on them to keep a different vampire from robbing them of their teleportation ability?

This is probably not the shining moment of party competence that will encourage Roy to rely on them more.

The lack of party competence may be more Roy's fault than anyone else.

Belkar was the only one really mistrusting Durkon*. Maybe V would have been more cautious too if decision was hir to make.
But Roy happened to fight the vampire alone because of the Godsmoot rules. He had to follow the Godsmoot rules because of his decisions.

The rob of the teleportation ability? V, Haley and Elan had no way to expect any danger on the orb. Because they had no way of knowing someone would want to steal it, nor that someone would access the flying ship that way.

And now they're continuing their quest without a primary healer? :smallconfused:
Granted, they will have Durkon back before fighting Xykon, but I hope they will try to hire a cleric in Dwarven lands before going to hunt some vampires.

Snails

2016-07-25, 12:17 PM

The lack of party competence may be more Roy's fault than anyone else.

I think that is a bit harsh. The story takes part in the OotSverse where it is established that every single has their goofy side. Yes, I would argue humor is woven into the fabric of the universe, and we can even see it in the behavior of ultra-serious characters like O-Chuul or beings in the LG afterlife.

So, to say it is Roy's fault is like blaming the Skipper of being a bad captain on Gilligan's Island. Yes, a bit more leadership and they would have avoided mistakes that kept them on the island. Or, perhaps the Professor is not so smart because he could not figure out how to step in and straighten everyone out? These are meaningless inquiries.

That the Orb was easy to steal was a narrative cheat, to maintain the pacing of the story. There could have been an epic battle on board the Mechane, where to Orb was robbed from an unconscious guardian just before the vampire(s) are driven off. That was both plausible and within the parameters of the resources and cleverness of the HPoH. It would have just made the story less interesting overall, because the author wanted to hurry us back to the moot.

That avoidable mistakes like the Orb being vulnerable happen is just an aspect of the genre. Roy is a pretty good leaders who is learning to be better, and even when/if he achieves greatness it will be his nature to make arguable mistakes because he is still an imperfect human being who lives in a humor rich world.

Jasdoif

2016-07-25, 01:28 PM

But Roy happened to fight the vampire alone because of the Godsmoot rules.The whole thing where Belkar split off from Roy, and got separated even further (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html), was the key part of why Belkar wasn't there when Roy was fighting HPoH.

The rob of the teleportation ability? V, Haley and Elan had no way to expect any danger on the orb.Roy didn't expect "Durkon" to turn the direction of the Godsmoot away from keeping the world from being destroyed, either; didn't seem to have stopped him from getting into the middle of it. Not to mention Vaarsuvius was in fact warned of a problem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1013.html). They're adventurers; dealing with danger, even unanticipated danger, is their job.

It's fascinating, really. Belkar was the most convinced there was a vampire problem, and he acted on that belief in a way that ultimately prevented him from participating. Vaarsuvius was ambivalent about whether or not a vampire posed a problem, and disregarded the best warning system the teleportation orb had. Roy spent the trip convincing himself that there was not a vampire problem, and alone managed to force HPoH to expend resources on his defense.

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-25, 02:04 PM

It's fascinating, really. Belkar was the most convinced there was a vampire problem, and he acted on that belief in a way that ultimately prevented him from participating. Vaarsuvius was ambivalent about whether or not a vampire posed a problem, and disregarded the best warning system the teleportation orb had. Roy spent the trip convincing himself that there was not a vampire problem, and alone managed to force HPoH to expend resources on his defense.
Honestly, where does he get off beating himself up over how things turned out? And apologizing to Belkar? If anything, it should be the other way 'round.

Peelee

2016-07-25, 02:14 PM

Honestly, where does he get off beating himself up over how things turned out? And apologizing to Belkar? If anything, it should be the other way 'round.

Can you extrapolate?

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-25, 02:24 PM

Can you extrapolate?
See the post I quoted. Everyone who was even slightly suspicious of Durkon was punished with irrelevancy by the universe. Roy, who gave Durkon the benefit of the doubt, was at least allowed to try and stop him and thus had more actual effect on the world. So where does Roy get off feeling guilty if he alone managed to do something that mattered? If anything, he ought to be crowing in pride.

Keltest

2016-07-25, 02:27 PM

See the post I quoted. Everyone who was even slightly suspicious of Durkon was punished with irrelevancy by the universe. Roy, who gave Durkon the benefit of the doubt, was at least allowed to try and stop him and thus had more actual effect on the world.

I'm pretty sure Belkar was punished with irrelevancy by his own overzealousness and general over-estimation of his own skills. Sure, Roy was deliberately ignoring the warning signs, but its not like Belkar has ever remotely stood a chance by himself against Durkon even in a fair fight, let alone an unfair one.

Jasdoif

2016-07-25, 02:31 PM

Honestly, where does he get off beating himself up over how things turned out? And apologizing to Belkar? If anything, it should be the other way 'round.Well, Roy's views on the responsibilities of a leader aside....Roy ceded the advantage of choosing the location of combat to HPoH, which I'm sure Roy feels is the only reason HPoH got away with all his goals accomplished. If Roy'd listened to Belkar pretty much any time since leaving the Western Continent and found a more beneficial locale for combat, and then brought Durkon's remains to the high priests in the form of vampire ash to be resurrected, the whole "vampires destroying the world" thing would've been averted. (Which of course is why the narrative wouldn't have supported events going that way, but Roy wouldn't be aware of that).

In Roy's mind, this was a conscious and deliberate failure on his part to work with the tools he's been given (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html).

Peelee

2016-07-25, 02:32 PM

See the post I quoted. Everyone who was even slightly suspicious of Durkon was punished with irrelevancy by the universe. Roy, who gave Durkon the benefit of the doubt, was at least allowed to try and stop him and thus had more actual effect on the world. So where does Roy get off feeling guilty if he alone managed to do something that mattered? If anything, he ought to be crowing in pride.

The guilt is from not doing anything or even being on guard until the 11th hour. He was lucky that he was in position to hinder the Vampire. Luck is pretty awesome, but it doesnt absolve any of his actions.

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-25, 02:34 PM

The guilt is from not doing anything or even being on guard until the 11th hour. He was lucky that he was in position to hinder the Vampire. Luck is pretty awesome, but it doesnt absolve lack of responsibility.
"Not doing anything or even being on guard until the 11th hour" was the correct and moral decision, and Roy benefited from it. Not to the fullest extent he could, because his allies were worse people and so their actions led to worse outcomes, but that's on them, not on Roy.

Peelee

2016-07-25, 02:40 PM

"Not doing anything or even being on guard until the 11th hour" was the correct and moral decision

Whatever floats your boat.

But saying that he benefited from it is a bit disingenuous, since again, he kinda lucked into that.

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-25, 02:44 PM

Whatever floats your boat.
Roy's intellect and intuition were in agreement that he should trust Durkon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) The comic makes Roy is a moral authority on this matter. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html)

But saying that he benefited from it is a bit disingenuous, since again, he kinda lucked into that.
In a story, the favor of the universe, narrative, author, etc. appears as luck.

Snails

2016-07-25, 02:48 PM

Well, Roy's views on the responsibilities of a leader aside....Roy ceded the advantage of choosing the location of combat to HPoH, which I'm sure Roy feels is the only reason HPoH got away with all his goals accomplished. If Roy'd listened to Belkar pretty much any time since leaving the Western Continent and found a more beneficial locale for combat, and then brought Durkon's remains to the high priests in the form of vampire ash to be resurrected, the whole "vampires destroying the world" thing would've been averted. (Which of course is why the narrative wouldn't have supported events going that way, but Roy wouldn't be aware of that).

In Roy's mind, this was a conscious and deliberate failure on his part to work with the tools he's been given (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html).

Your points all make sense. But I have some counterpoints:

(1) HPoH made a very reasonable argument that, even as an evil creature, of course he would want to prevent the destruction of the world. That Roy was opened to such a reasonable argument is actually an aspect of his character growth -- not all character growth is an unambiguous advantage.

(2) The HPoH instantly and magically gained a large amount of hidden knowledge and hidden resources that nobody could anticipate. I would bet that even Malack (if around) would have been shocked that "his friend" instantly became the keystone in Hel's secret agenda to destroy the whole world.

(3) Taking out a vampire is tough. The whole Order could easily defeat such a creature, but not necessarily kill it. If you make an attack and fail, then the vampire flees and Durkon's body becomes permanently out of reach.

Peelee

2016-07-25, 02:51 PM

Roy's intellect and intuition were in agreement that he should trust Durkon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) The comic makes Roy is a moral authority on this matter. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html)

In a story, the favor of the universe, narrative, author, etc. appears as luck.
That his intellect and intuition were in agreement does not mean that he was not wrong.

Also, i find it quite odd that you accept as fact those strips as gospel, yet reject the strips where he apologizes.

Also, I'm not quite sure what your second point is, other than "luck in fiction gets a moralistic pass." Does the source of the luck affect Roy's state of mind in any way? If not, why bring up the source?

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-25, 02:56 PM

That his intellect and intuition were in agreement does not mean that he was not wrong.
You can make every move right and still lose.

Also, I'm not quite sure what your second point is, other than "luck in fiction gets a moralistic pass."
If the Giant hadn't wanted to validate Roy's moral choices, he wouldn't have had Roy be as lucky as he was. Luck doesn't get a moral pass so much as it is evidence of a moral pass.

Ruck

2016-07-25, 03:22 PM

Well, "No matter what you do or why you do it, if you luck into being in the right place at the right time, you were justified" is preferable to "everything Vaarsuvius does is proof of irredeemable evil," I guess.

Joerg

2016-07-25, 03:23 PM

If the Giant hadn't wanted to validate Roy's moral choices, he wouldn't have had Roy be as lucky as he was. Luck doesn't get a moral pass so much as it is evidence of a moral pass.
So when Redcloak got lucky by not getting hit with Haleys arrow outside the inner gate of Azure City, or by making more saving throws than the high priest of the twelve gods, that was evidence that his conquest of Azure City was morally right?

... Sorry, I'm sure there are a whole lot of examples where villains get lucky. And since you have as yet just asserted that being lucky means being right without any supporting arguments, I remain thoroughly unconvinced.

Peelee

2016-07-25, 03:28 PM

You can make every move right and still lose.

I do not at all disagree with this assertion. I do disagree that Roy made every right move.

Jasdoif

2016-07-25, 06:44 PM

In a story, the favor of the universe, narrative, author, etc. appears as luck.The apathy of the author etc. also appears as luck. In fact, "luck" can cover the entire range of things that weren't explicitly setup beforehand, for any reason. The presence of "luck" isn't itself an indicator of moral authority one way or another.

Your points all make sense. But I have some counterpoints:

(1) HPoH made a very reasonable argument that, even as an evil creature, of course he would want to prevent the destruction of the world. That Roy was opened to such a reasonable argument is actually an aspect of his character growth -- not all character growth is an unambiguous advantage.

(2) The HPoH instantly and magically gained a large amount of hidden knowledge and hidden resources that nobody could anticipate. I would bet that even Malack (if around) would have been shocked that "his friend" instantly became the keystone in Hel's secret agenda to destroy the whole world.

(3) Taking out a vampire is tough. The whole Order could easily defeat such a creature, but not necessarily kill it. If you make an attack and fail, then the vampire flees and Durkon's body becomes permanently out of reach.None of which seem to have dissuaded Roy from feeling responsible for an oversight. Especially that last point, because it seems a lot like the current situation except for the addition of teleportation and multiple other vampires.

I do not at all disagree with this assertion. I do disagree that Roy made every right move.Even Roy doesn't agree that he made every right move...and ultimately that's far more important to Roy's behavior than whether or not he made (or could be determined to have made) every right move.

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-25, 07:09 PM

So when Redcloak got lucky by not getting hit with Haleys arrow outside the inner gate of Azure City, or by making more saving throws than the high priest of the twelve gods, that was evidence that his conquest of Azure City was morally right?
It was certainly evidence that the author favored his conquest over the alternative. Moral justification is, of course, verboten.

Peelee

2016-07-25, 09:28 PM

It was certainly evidence that the author favored his conquest over the alternative. Moral justification is, of course, verboten.

So, by your argument, the author must favor everything that happens, since he controls everything in the story? That's one helluva belief.

DaggerPen

2016-07-25, 10:43 PM

Roy was, philosophically speaking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html), correct not to slaughter out of hand the vampire formerly known as Durkon.

Roy was incorrect to believe that it was possible to go from Good to Evil without at least a fundamental personality altering, though depending on how much he knows about vampires (probably not a lot) it's understandable that he may have written it off as "oh, he'll have to struggle with his cravings for blood, but he's otherwise the same guy, right?", particularly given Greg's Durkon act.

Roy was fairly misguided to, upon finding out that "Durkon" was actively trying to destroy the world, hold back in an attempt to talk some sense into him. It was an understandable attempt to reach some core of his friend he believed to still be there (or in charge, at least), but, like. The point at which your formerly Lawful Good friend seemingly starts trying to destroy the world is the point at which it's gone beyond "dark urges" into "seriously, that in no way any longer constitutes the person I knew", and the time it took him to realize that may have cost him a decisive victory.

However, I find it... quite unlikely that his status in the Godsmoot was remotely indicative of authorial sanction of his moral reactions to Durkon's death rather than indicative of the importance of Roy and Durkon's friendship to both characters. Because of how prominent their friendship was, Roy needed to take a central role in the reveal (to the characters) that this isn't really Durkon, while the character who already knew (Belkar) can be tossed out (literally) in order to clear the stage for the dramatic reveal and characters who weren't as close to him can have only tangential involvement. It has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with drama.

Snails

2016-07-26, 12:35 AM

If the Giant hadn't wanted to validate Roy's moral choices, he wouldn't have had Roy be as lucky as he was. Luck doesn't get a moral pass so much as it is evidence of a moral pass.

Maybe.

But for purposes of this comic, luck is often a narrative shortcut, where the result could have been set up by the author to be more apparently inevitable. The author might choose to take the shortcut, not due to lack of foresight or laziness, but because story pacing suggests it would be better to resolve things quickly or directly, instead of taking a more laborious route.

For example, in the big picture, it does not obviously matter to the fate of the OotSworld if Redcloak were defeated temporarily or even permanently in his clerical Save Versus Doom battle at Azure City. Does the main protagonist's struggle change a whit? Probably not. The cost would less fun in secondary character arcs. The story could continue if Xykon handed over the Red Cloak to Jirix, it would be more fiddly and less satisfying -- no biggie.

Another example: In some sense, it does not matter whether the falling dragon's head saves V at Azure City. It was authorial fiat that V does not simply fling a second or third or fourth Disintegrate at undead beastie until it is ash (Disintegrate is a superb choice against such opponents and having multiple preps plus scrolls requires no explanation). It was authorial fiat that V does not turn invisible right there and jump off the battlement to feather fall to safety. V (and the author) had options. The author chose a certain kind of luck to enhance V's arc. It worked. But V's arc could still have been V's arc without getting so fancy about it. The author had other means of getting to the same place, but the "shortcut" of apparent luck got us there with more style.

Snails

2016-07-26, 12:49 AM

DaggerPen's analysis is an excellent one.

I would add: Roy was incorrect to not put jump at the chance to consult with clerics about the nature of vampires, if the opportunity were to arise. Very obviously, no one in the party except Greg know squat (and it is even debatable if Durkon were particularly competent on this topic), so that is a party weakness that is very worthy of attempting to mitigate. He should get someone in the party to make queries, even if he felt the need to baby sit Greg personally. However, I would chalk this up to an old character flaw that is probably the result of his troubled relationship to his father: Roy relies on being smart enough to play it by ear, and is reluctant to submit to any form of authority, even intellectual authority that might give simple advice.

Quild

2016-07-26, 07:10 AM

The whole thing where Belkar split off from Roy, and got separated even further (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html), was the key part of why Belkar wasn't there when Roy was fighting HPoH.

But Roy decided himself that Belkar would be the one coming with him and knew it might have been a trap.
Belkar might have made little difference fighting HPoH. I'm not even sure that Roy knew that Belkar now had his new clasp.

Jasdoif

2016-07-26, 10:51 AM

But Roy decided himself that Belkar would be the one coming with him and knew it might have been a trap.
Belkar might have made little difference fighting HPoH. I'm not even sure that Roy knew that Belkar now had his new clasp.And Belkar wasn't there when the trap was sprung, guaranteeing he made no difference.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, here. The scenario Roy brought Belkar along for, which Belkar had personally been expecting, happened...and Belkar still managed not to be there for it. Why would Roy think that was his own fault?

dancrilis

2016-07-26, 11:14 AM

Roy spent the trip convincing himself that there was not a vampire problem, and alone managed to force HPoH to expend resources on his defense.

In fairness Roy attacking Durkon had possible zero impact on Durkon's plans - getting the Clerics to attack the new vampires (rather than attack Durkon after he had relinquished his title as he wanted) and attacking them himself may have had a partial impact.

Durkon seems to have only used ~12 spells (7 named, 1 counterspell, ~4 unnamed) at quick count - not really something that is going to bother him, the only real loss is the Staff which he didn't seem overly concerned about (possibly low on charges after creating the vampires anyway).

Jasdoif

2016-07-26, 12:07 PM

In fairness Roy attacking Durkon had possible zero impact on Durkon's plans - getting the Clerics to attack the new vampires (rather than attack Durkon after he had relinquished his title as he wanted) and attacking them himself may have had a partial impact.

Durkon seems to have only used ~12 spells (7 named, 1 counterspell, ~4 unnamed) at quick count - not really something that is going to bother him, the only real loss is the Staff which he didn't seem overly concerned about (possibly low on charges after creating the vampires anyway).Oh, HPoH definitely achieved his main goals: placing a vote for Hel, getting a means to teleport into a position where he can influence the tiebreaker vote (and/or the last Gate, though that's speculative on my part), and leaving the vote intact so influencing the tiebreaker vote matters. Roy's main accomplishment was cutting down the number of support vampires HPoH took with him.

Meanwhile, Belkar...got HPoH to cast silence? That wasn't even defense, that was to make attacking him and tossing him out the window less of an inconvenience. And Vaarsuvius...umm...failed to intervene when a warning was given?

It's certainly an "even blurred vision is valued by the blind" scenario, but Roy's still at the top end of the low bar.

Snails

2016-07-26, 12:45 PM

It's certainly an "even blurred vision is valued by the blind" scenario, but Roy's still at the top end of the low bar.

To be fair, the bar is set by considering the genre of the setting as a whole, and whether it seems low is more or less irrelevant. In the OotSverse, a dash of foolishness seems to be the norm.

The closest thing we have seen to a genuinely competent plotter and keen intellect is Tarquin. He, too, has his share of failures, and so happens to be a stone's throw away from insane.

I guess we can arguably add the HPoH to the list of skilled plotters. But he seems to only gotten so far by literally having a major god give him pointers in secret.

Throknor

2016-07-26, 12:47 PM

Belkar was trying to find evidence that he was right. Unfortunately for him while he addressed other abilities he didn't count on the vampire's improved hearing. If he hadn't have been heard, or if he had taken the correct route back, he could have burst in and announced what he had seen. If he'd done this before the vote officially started there are a lot of ways it could have played out, including Greg not being identified as a representative but merely a vampire that had snuck in and started attacking the earth clerics.

I'm not going to go into too much speculation on what could have been. I just wanted to point out Belkar had a specific plan and went about it in an intelligent fashion. That it didn't work doesn't invalidate it.

And, as far was we know, neither of his daggers have 'return'. So he might have been able to get two shots in but his usefulness in the battle against the shield would be limited. Luckily(?) that probably won't be an early tactic in any upcoming fight; it was used mainly to buy time to get in position to port. But as it could fire at some time I understand why Roy would want to prepare.

But what ability would a ranged attack from a sword come under? Will he need to make Dexterity-based attack rolls? Which was something I wondered about with throwing the sword - it's not really balanced for that. Seems like it would be hard to hit anything with.

Jasdoif

2016-07-26, 01:16 PM

I'm not going to go into too much speculation on what could have been. I just wanted to point out Belkar had a specific plan and went about it in an intelligent fashion. That it didn't work doesn't invalidate it.The chain of posts (mine, anyway) stem back to Quild's assertions that Roy should rely on his party more, and that Roy might be responsible for the lack of party competence. That Belkar didn't go along with Roy, and had no success to show for it, goes a rather long way against trusting Belkar's judgement.

But what ability would a ranged attack from a sword come under? Will he need to make Dexterity-based attack rolls?Probably, but I wouldn't worry too much at this point. It's likely to be a ranged touch attack, I think, and Roy should have plenty of base attack bonus to hit a touch AC.

Mightymosy

2016-07-26, 04:04 PM

dancrilis

2016-07-26, 05:52 PM

That Belkar didn't go along with Roy, and had no success to show for it, goes a rather long way against trusting Belkar's judgement.

I think it depends.
That Roy didn't go along with Belkar (to observe Durkon), and as such was blindsided by the Hel revelation and so had very little success to show for the confrontation, goes a rather long way against trusting Roy's judgement - could be a take away also (not one I would agree with mind you).

Or if Belkar had climbed the mountain and returned in time to help Roy you likely wouldn't say that him getting thrown off the mountain in the first place was a reason not to trust Belkar's judgement.

Belkar failed to be effective but his judgement was fine (including using his base 20 movement to try and escape and shouting to warn Roy).

Or to put it another way (via paraphrasing):
The fact that Belker did not succeed does not diminish the worthiness of his effort.

Jasdoif

2016-07-26, 06:34 PM

I think it depends.
That Roy didn't go along with Belkar (to observe Durkon), and as such was blindsided by the Hel revelation and so had very little success to show for the confrontation, goes a rather long way against trusting Roy's judgement - could be a take away also (not one I would agree with mind you).If one were to deliberately ignore the part where Belkar never even informed Roy he was splitting, and certainly didn't attempt to get Roy to go along with him to observe Durkon, sure. But at that point one would be evaluating Roy on his precognitive future psychic ability, rather than his judgement.

The fact that Belker did not succeed does not diminish the worthiness of his effort.You seem to be talking about something rather different than I am.

Roy brought Belkar along, stating his intention behind bringing Belkar along. Belkar was not there for the scenario Roy brought him along for. Belkar did not succeed in any other matter.

Belkar's judgement was that it was acceptable to disregard Roy's intent, and that it was unnecessary or counterproductive to inform Roy of any alteration to his (minimal) plan. And then Belkar failed to come back with any advantage to offset any complications his unannounced departure may have caused.

Belkar failed as a reliable agent and as an independent agent. Which part of "runs off and accomplishes nothing" is supposed to inspire Roy to rely more on Belkar? Even Roy's apology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html) says he "should've paid attention to", not "should've gone along with".

Snails

2016-07-26, 06:46 PM

In any way, Roy needs to take it more into account that right now he is just a melee fighter with limited range (literally) to influence things. Whether he gets a ranged weapon as suggested in the OP, getting flying as suggested by me, or relying on party members to fill out this strategical gap (and others) doesn't matter as much as long as he finally uses it.
It's especially bad for someone who tries to be the smart fighter.
He lucked out of not getting ranged weapon/flying/magic when comic logic allowed him to climb Lady of Odin's spear.
Now maybe he lucks out by getting donated a magic shooting beam on his sword.
I can see where some people are going with their criticism on Roy, but I personally think that is a part of character developement that is still waiting to be told. After all, we still have one book left after this one.

IMNSHO things like flying really do not matter.

The Giant understands perfectly well how peculiar it is for an intelligent adventurer of double digit levels, especially an intelligent one, to not have a potion of flying or similar for emergencies. He doesn't care.

Roy lacks flying because the Giant prefers to keep Roy conceptually simple, rather than the more "realistic" christmas tree of minor magic items/effect that double digit level D&D PCs tend to be. Roy could easily have 20 potions of flying available in his pockets, right now. He had the opportunity to acquire them. He seems to have the cash (based on what other party members have been buying).

How does it improve the story by Roy chugging a potion or three at the beginning of combat? It doesn't.

Not flying gives the author another tool for pacing the combats. Not flying gives Roy a reason for a totally badass jump off the balcony. Not flying gave Roy a very dramatic death in the past. None of these have anything to do with character development at all.

And to anticipate the counterargument... If he had flying, no, he would not died from a dramatic fall. Xykon would have simply hit him with a second meteor swarm instead.

Whether or not Roy has a highly effective ranged attack, especially if it comes from his personal weapon, THAT is character development.

dancrilis

2016-07-26, 06:56 PM

Roy brought Belkar along, stating his intention behind bringing Belkar along. Belkar was not there for the scenario Roy brought him along for. Belkar did not succeed in any other matter.
That depends on how you see that scenario.
Roy brought him along to be on his guard the whole time - however neither Roy or Belkar knew the Durkon's plan.
Had Durkon intended nothing neferious at the meeting itself but instead wanted to simply convert the 'Creed of Stone' so as to provide Hel with a number of mid-level clerics, that would still be bad - and Belkar sneaking off may have alerted Roy to what was going on.
So if Roy brought Belkar as a second fighter than sure Belkar (and Roy) failed - but I read it as Roy brought him along to keep an eye on Durkon - where in fairness Belkar still failed in practical terms due to what Durkon's plan transpired to be, but Roy actually succeeded in his aim of bringing Belkar along - i.e that Belkar would note the instant that Durkon stepped out of line).

Belkar's judgement was that it was acceptable to disregard Roy's intent,
Again depending on Roy's intent (there were matters Durkon could have done without revealing himself to Roy at all had Hel's plan been different, or if he transfered the High Priest of Hel status early).

and that it was unnecessary or counterproductive to inform Roy of any alteration to his (minimal) plan.
Well that was fairly obvious and vampires get +8 listen so he might not have wanted to voice it openly.

And then Belkar failed to come back with any advantage to offset any complications his unannounced departure may have caused.
Sure - given what the plan was and how it came to light Belkar would have been more use to Roy in the meeting room.

Belkar failed as a reliable agent and as an independent agent.
I think that is a bit unfair to him - if Roy's intent was for him to watch Durkon for signs on mischief he succeeded - his success however was meaningless given the actual plan.

Jasdoif

2016-07-26, 07:29 PM

So if Roy brought Belkar as a second fighter than sure Belkar (and Roy) failed - but I read it as Roy brought him along to keep an eye on Durkon - where in fairness Belkar still failed in practical terms due to what Durkon's plan transpired to be, but Roy actually succeeded in his aim of bringing Belkar along - i.e that Belkar would note the instant that Durkon stepped out of line).Given that Roy thinks Belkar wandering alone is necessarily a problem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0997.html), I'm pretty sure helping HPoH with his divide and conquer is not what Roy had in mind.

And even with that, I could possibly see how Roy might have intended Belkar more as a Durkon-watcher instead of a second fighter, despite responding directly to a "bodyguard" query and sticking with it after Belkar said he was going to follow regardless (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0993.html)...but not without an "and then something is done about it" component included in his aim.

Quild

2016-07-27, 03:44 AM

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, here.

You pointed the chain of post. I'm still on the idea that Roy shouldn't forget that he has a party with him. You seems to be saying that the party being unreliable, he has to do everything. I'm saying that they're not worst than he is himself. I'll add that failing and being unreliable are different things.

Roy shouldn't use his legacy weapon for a ranged attack.

There's plenty of things he should do, like:
He should pack a ranged weapon, he should get a protection against negative energy (he can't rely on Mass Death Ward right now), he should get a back-up healer (Elan will do that I guess, but he could be a bit short), he should get more damage to overcome Damage Reduction, he should get more bonus to hit so he can overcome Durkon*'s AC, he should get more willpower so he can't be controlled even for one round, etc...
Oh, and he should improve teamwork of course.

There's a quote from Steven Brust that I like (among others):
If your only chance of living through something is if your enemy isn't a sorcerer, or doesn't have a spare dagger, or can't jump an eleven-foot crevasse, then you assume your enemy isn't a sorcerer, or doesn't have a spare dagger, or can't jump an eleven-foot crevasse.

I think that the only chance Roy has to get Durkon back and defeat Xykon is by not doing it alone.
Roy thought he could duel Xykon in their first encounter.
He thought he could duel Xykon in their second encounter.
He thought he could save the slaves-to-be alone in #686 rather than tracking the hive later with the party (he was right on this one, but still).
Even in the phantasm, he faced Xykon alone while the others dealt with Redcloak.
And he thought he could duel Durkon*, a vampire cleric with at least the same level than his.

He tried to warn V against attacking Xykon alone but it seems he didn't get the lesson himself.

By trying to replace his team in every situation, he might be bad at his own role.

Peelee

2016-07-27, 04:31 AM

Roy shouldn't use his legacy weapon for a ranged attack.

If it has a ranged function, why not?

Quild

2016-07-27, 05:00 AM

If it has a ranged function, why not?

Because the ranged function is something that Roy can have in a mundane way. And it's something that two of his teammates can do.

Roy is going to chose a "magical effect" that isn't that helpful.

Rather than an effect that allows him to attack enemies in distance, he should maybe get an effect that allows him to pull these enemies to him.

Peelee

2016-07-27, 05:08 AM

Because the ranged function is something that Roy can have in a mundane way. And it's something that two of his teammates can do.

Roy is going to chose a "magical effect" that isn't that helpful.

Rather than an effect that allows him to attack enemies in distance, he should maybe get an effect that allows him to pull these enemies to him.

You're assuming that he can choose his weapons power. What if he can't, and is merely trying to determine its capabilities? If it can have a ranged effect, and Roy must learn to harness it, wouldn't deliberately not learning it be a disservice?

factotum

2016-07-27, 06:03 AM

I'm with Peelee here--if Roy has learned his weapon has a ranged attack, it behooves him to learn how to use it. There's also the other point that no-one else in the Order was in a position to help Roy at the Godsmoot, which is the time when he really, really needed a ranged attack and didn't have one, so the "but he should rely on his team!" argument doesn't hold there.

Quild

2016-07-27, 06:57 AM

You're assuming that he can choose his weapons power. What if he can't, and is merely trying to determine its capabilities? If it can have a ranged effect, and Roy must learn to harness it, wouldn't deliberately not learning it be a disservice?

But there's absolutely no clue of that :smallconfused:.
It's more likely that he wants the ranged attack because it failed him not to have one.

The chances of being again in a situation where he needs a ranged attack:
- without having his party with him,
- while having his stuff (Roy has been missing his sword from #112 to #298, from #443 (or #484 if you want) to #665 and from #731 to #809),
- while it would make a difference,
- while a standard ranged weapon wouldn't work,

seems small enough. There certainly must be something more important to cover before that.
The Giant explained that Malack didn't have Word of Recall prepared because when you prepare your best spell slot for a situation where you're going to lose the fight, then you'll lose the fight.
Malack have been destroyed, but it doesn't make this logic untrue. And Roy may be doing a mistake here.

Also I doubt that a ranged attack in #1004 would have allowed to destroy Durkon* on distance. Or maybe Roy will have his sword working at ranged distance with the same damage than on melee? :smallconfused:

The Artisan

2016-07-27, 09:40 AM

But there's absolutely no clue of that :smallconfused:.
It's more likely that he wants the ranged attack because it failed him not to have one.

I think you just restated what everyone else has been saying. He wants the ranged attack because he has now seen a situation where he was boned by not having one... It makes perfect sense, and you even just showed you understand his reasoning.

Quild

2016-07-27, 09:50 AM

I think you just restated what everyone else has been saying. He wants the ranged attack because he has now seen a situation where he was boned by not having one... It makes perfect sense, and you even just showed you understand his reasoning.

I see an important difference between:
- I can get a magical ability for my sword, I'm going to work on a ranged attack.
- I can get a ranged attack with my sword, I'm going to work on it.

The Artisan

2016-07-27, 09:58 AM

I see an important difference between:
- I can get a magical ability for my sword, I'm going to work on a ranged attack.
- I can get a ranged attack with my sword, I'm going to work on it.
True, but it is the thing most on his mind right now, and we know why, so if he can get a new ability without spending money (which they are stated to be coming low on) and without burning new feats to make it functional (we know he is a crummy archer since he states he hasn't worked on it since his mandatory classes), it makes the most narrative sense for him to try for the thing that he was screwed recently by not having. He doesn't know which things his sword can do, and for all you know he has been trying other things (I mean he is studying the book when we start the scene, so he has probably been doing stuff for a little bit). Maybe you need to suspend disbelief and think of it like this: "Roy has been working with his sword to do many things, and at the moment we are seeing him (which is not the only moment) he is working on a ranged attack because the narrative has a good reason for him to want one right now, and that is a reason we know, so it makes more sense that showing him suddenly trying for an unrelated ability that we don't know he has any reason to want."

Peelee

2016-07-27, 09:58 AM

I see an important difference between:
- I can get a magical ability for my sword, I'm going to work on a ranged attack.
- I can get a ranged attack with my sword, I'm going to work on it.

Agreed, but so far as we know, there's no proof one way or the other. And considering, he's learning how to harness the powers, I'm inclined to believe that it's the latter.

dancrilis

2016-07-27, 10:02 AM

I see an important difference between:
- I can get a magical ability for my sword, I'm going to work on a ranged attack.
- I can get a ranged attack with my sword, I'm going to work on it.

Imagine this scenario.
Roy and team confront Xykon and Redcloak (or Durkon and co).
The cleric casts Antilife Shell, Vaarsuvius fails to dispel what does Roy do?

Remember Durkon and Co can attempt to dominate Haley, Elan, Himself and Vaarsuvius each round (he has the Vampire/Spawn for that) - or a single individual could be forced to save multiple times a round if the undead concentrate, with Roy being effectively powerless.

Redcloak can cast Implosion and effectively party wipe them without Xykon needing to get involved.

Roy's role in the party is to get involved so he is seeking to be able to fulfil that role - maybe he would be better trying to unlock powers that allow him to take over Durkon's role as support (healing, buffing, etc) but he likely isn't thinking that way as his training and mentality is all about not focused that way.

In short Roy knows he can be easilly benched - and so is considering the easiest method of avoiding that, namely a ranged attack.

factotum

2016-07-27, 10:17 AM

Agreed, but so far as we know, there's no proof one way or the other. And considering, he's learning how to harness the powers, I'm inclined to believe that it's the latter.

Given he'd already drawn a target on the cabin wall it seems likely there was something in the documentation to suggest the sword's power could be used at range...it would be massive wishful thinking on Roy's behalf otherwise.

Quild

2016-07-27, 10:21 AM

Maybe you need to suspend disbelief
I would need to suspend disbelief if I was saying that it's out of character from Roy to make that decision. But I'm just saying that I think that Roy takes a bad decision.

Roy's not perfect, I'm entirely fine with it. I'm not the one saying that Roy knows better than anyone else.

Agreed, but so far as we know, there's no proof one way or the other. And considering, he's learning how to harness the powers, I'm inclined to believe that it's the latter.
Well, Weapons of Legacy by RAW sucks. It's probably going to be homeruled in ootsverse. But the way they work, Wrecan's words, the page of the book we can see and Roy's words makes me think it's more the former.

Imagine this scenario.
Roy and team confront Xykon and Redcloak (or Durkon and co).
The cleric casts Antilife Shell, Vaarsuvius fails to dispel what does Roy do?

[...]
Take a ranged weapon and use it?
Maybe what Roy need is a way to dispell (fly spell, spider climb, anti-life shell, enhancement spells, dominate person, etc...)?
So what, shouldn't he get UMD and tons of wands?

You can imagine countless scenarios, Roy can't be prepared to all of them. He's not a druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html).
Not being able to be prepared for everything doesn't mean you have to be prepared for nothing. But Roy can be better prepared for his role. He missed an awful lot of attacks on Durkon* for instance. Is he prepared for that next time?

Given he'd already drawn a target on the cabin wall it seems likely there was something in the documentation to suggest the sword's power could be used at range...it would be massive wishful thinking on Roy's behalf otherwise.
The book probably lists "ranged attack" as an effect a Weapon of Legacy was known to have. See #1025.
Roy seems to think he is the one who created the special effect that happened against Durkon* (rather than luckily have that effect already existing on the sword and being unlocked).

dancrilis

2016-07-27, 10:46 AM

Take a ranged weapon and use it?
Most are not great against Undead (frankly there is a first level spell that makes most not great against anyone) and he doesn't really have time to go grab a good one.

Maybe what Roy need is a way to dispell (fly spell, spider climb, anti-life shell, enhancement spells, dominate person, etc...)?
Can't get Epic Dispel into a magic item as it is an Epic spell - and greater dispel will need likely fail against the lesser (Redcloak and Durkon) opponents he will be meeting (unless his caster level for it is particularly high).

So what, shouldn't he get UMD and tons of wands?

Requires leveling, and money for wands, and people who have those wands who are a high enough level for there dispel to be affective against Redcloak (or Durkon) let along Xykon.
Also Wands are DC 20 with UMD so he likely would need a few levels dedicated to it to be comfortable he can succeed with one, and even than he is going to be busy wanding as his enemies butcher his friends (and him).

Roy's solution is 'I want to be able to use my sword at range and through barriers that I can't overcome currently' - it isn't a bad idea (whether it pans out or not who knows).

Kish

2016-07-27, 12:04 PM

Take a ranged weapon and use it?
A magic ranged weapon that does bludgeoning damage? Because any other weapon would lose 15 damage from each strike to Xykon's DR. So...a magic sling. 1d4 base damage.

That sounds like a bad idea.

Maybe what Roy need is a way to dispell (fly spell, spider climb, anti-life shell, enhancement spells, dominate person, etc...)?
So what, shouldn't he get UMD and tons of wands?

Use Magic Device is cross-class for fighters. Which means that, even if Roy put as many points into it as he could (which would be multiple levels of advancing only Use Magic Device while his class skills didn't advance), wands would still be unreliable for him.

I do not get why so many people seem to be taking issue with Roy wanting a ranged attack. Is this the new form of "Roy should stop thinking a single-classed fighter can do anything and multiclass already"? Because I do note that a recurring theme is "Roy should stop trying to get something he might be able to get, and instead focus on somehow duplicating something spellcasters do that he has no reasonable means of getting."

Jasdoif

2016-07-27, 12:31 PM

I'm still on the idea that Roy shouldn't forget that he has a party with him. You seems to be saying that the party being unreliable, he has to do everything.I'm saying the most recent set of failures isn't going to be what inspires Roy to rely on them more.

I see an important difference between:
- I can get a magical ability for my sword, I'm going to work on a ranged attack.
- I can get a ranged attack with my sword, I'm going to work on it.Agreed, but so far as we know, there's no proof one way or the other. And considering, he's learning how to harness the powers, I'm inclined to believe that it's the latter.Well, Weapons of Legacy by RAW sucks. It's probably going to be homeruled in ootsverse. But the way they work, Wrecan's words, the page of the book we can see and Roy's words makes me think it's more the former.I'm curious, now: Which part of Roy being healed by his sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html) prior to knowing his sword could do anything remotely similar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1025.html), and the book talking about unleashing its basic powers and invoking its core abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1045.html)...tells you that Roy consciously chooses the powers in the sword, rather than the sword already having powers Roy could use?

Mightymosy

2016-07-27, 01:21 PM

IMNSHO things like flying really do not matter.

The Giant understands perfectly well how peculiar it is for an intelligent adventurer of double digit levels, especially an intelligent one, to not have a potion of flying or similar for emergencies. He doesn't care.

Roy lacks flying because the Giant prefers to keep Roy conceptually simple, rather than the more "realistic" christmas tree of minor magic items/effect that double digit level D&D PCs tend to be. Roy could easily have 20 potions of flying available in his pockets, right now. He had the opportunity to acquire them. He seems to have the cash (based on what other party members have been buying).

How does it improve the story by Roy chugging a potion or three at the beginning of combat? It doesn't.

Not flying gives the author another tool for pacing the combats. Not flying gives Roy a reason for a totally badass jump off the balcony. Not flying gave Roy a very dramatic death in the past. None of these have anything to do with character development at all.

And to anticipate the counterargument... If he had flying, no, he would not died from a dramatic fall. Xykon would have simply hit him with a second meteor swarm instead.

Whether or not Roy has a highly effective ranged attack, especially if it comes from his personal weapon, THAT is character development.

Nah, please don't confuse things I said with things I didn't say.

For the record: I'm 100% fine with the story (in respect to Roy not having flying potions or something similar).

What I am criticising is Roy as a character who tries to be the smart fighter.

That means that, if I were to speak to Roy, I would tell him he should improve.
If I spoke to Rich Burlew, I would say "Great story".

There is no contradiction between the two, first and foremost because I anticipate the flaw I mentioned to be adressed with future character development, and second because characters are fine with flaws as well.

Also, if his sword shoots beams suddenly, that's not character development. If that causes Roy to think or act differenctly it could lead to character development, or if Roy thinking or acting differently caused the sword to shoot, then we would have character development. The item itself? Not so much.

Finally, we can only analyse the story under strategical aspects if we ignore the author's fiat. Of course Rich Burlew could have invented a thousand ways to kill Roy with flying potion or without. That's not the point of the discussion. Rich Burlew is the all-potent author. He can make up whatever he wants, it doesn't even have to make sense if that's not about what he cares.

And flying potions (if those exsist in D&D) could have helped Roy tremendously in his second fight against Xykon. Once he fell down, Xykon flew away. All Roy would have needed to do was drink the potion once Xykon is not lookin anymore.
There. Not guaranteed survival, but cetainly better than what he had access to.

Again: I agree with Rich Burlew not wanting to clutter the story with numerous magic items, but I disagree with Roy not getting flying potions (if these are so easy to get as you suggested).

Peelee

2016-07-27, 01:40 PM

Flying potions do exist in D&D, but for what you seem to be looking for, an item - such as a Ring - of Dimension Door (short-range teleport, 400 ft. + 40 ft./level, or minimum of 680 ft) would be more useful.

Mightymosy

2016-07-27, 02:05 PM

Peelee

2016-07-27, 02:14 PM

Not bad. Does ist provide at-will, or with charges? Or how does it work?

Depends on the item. Rings are usually either always-on or at-will, and can have limited number of uses per day or unlimited use. For instance, Belkar's Ring of Jumping +20 is always active, and gives a permanent +20 bonus to jump checks as long as its being worn.

For a spell like Dimension Door, I would probably peg it at 3 uses per day for a less expensive ring, or unlimited per day for a very expensive ring (or possibly not available in an infinite-use version. There's a Ring of Invisibility listed at 20k in the SRD that has unlimited uses, and I'm not so sure something like that would show up in a game of mine. And I tend to favor high-magic worlds).

factotum

2016-07-27, 04:52 PM

For a spell like Dimension Door, I would probably peg it at 3 uses per day for a less expensive ring, or unlimited per day for a very expensive ring (or possibly not available in an infinite-use version. There's a Ring of Invisibility listed at 20k in the SRD that has unlimited uses, and I'm not so sure something like that would show up in a game of mine. And I tend to favor high-magic worlds).

I'd say Dimension Door has less potential to break things in half than Invisibility does--for a start, Dimensional Anchor is a 4th-level spell for all classes, whereas True Seeing is 5th level for clerics and 7th for arcane casters. Also, DD tends to be really not very useful in open areas, since it's strictly short range and you're likely to still be in sight of your enemies after using it.

Peelee

2016-07-27, 05:13 PM

I'd say Dimension Door has less potential to break things in half than Invisibility does--for a start, Dimensional Anchor is a 4th-level spell for all classes, whereas True Seeing is 5th level for clerics and 7th for arcane casters. Also, DD tends to be really not very useful in open areas, since it's strictly short range and you're likely to still be in sight of your enemies after using it.

A 3-use version, you're definitely right. An unlimited version, though? Not nearly as good as a Teleport, but you could get away from most creatures with ease by just spamming it.

DaggerPen

2016-07-27, 05:14 PM

Peelee

2016-07-27, 05:21 PM

I don't know why I always forget about boots as being magical items. Thanks!

Ruck

2016-07-27, 05:32 PM

I'm saying the most recent set of failures isn't going to be what inspires Roy to rely on them more.
He explicitly told Belkar he needed to do a better job of taking his team seriously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html), so I'm not sure I agree with you.

Jasdoif

2016-07-27, 06:03 PM

I'd say Dimension Door has less potential to break things in half than Invisibility does--for a start, Dimensional Anchor is a 4th-level spell for all classes, whereas True Seeing is 5th level for clerics and 7th for arcane casters.Don't forget see invisibility, though. It's 2nd level for sorcerers and wizards, 3rd for bards, and even valid for permanency at CL 10.

He explicitly told Belkar he needed to do a better job of taking his team seriously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html), so I'm not sure I agree with you.He did indeed say he needed to improve on taking his team seriously, with the specific example of paying attention to what Belkar said...and that he didn't pay attention because he didn't want to believe that anything had changed. There's quite a gap between "should've paid attention to" and "should've gone along with". Roy is committing to listening fairly to see if he agrees, not to any sort of deferral that increased reliance would entail.

Snails

2016-07-27, 06:34 PM

Nah, please don't confuse things I said with things I didn't say.

For the record: I'm 100% fine with the story (in respect to Roy not having flying potions or something similar).

What I am criticising is Roy as a character who tries to be the smart fighter.

That means that, if I were to speak to Roy, I would tell him he should improve.
If I spoke to Rich Burlew, I would say "Great story".

There is no contradiction between the two, first and foremost because I anticipate the flaw I mentioned to be adressed with future character development, and second because characters are fine with flaws as well.

Fair enough. What you say makes perfect sense. We would happen to disagree on how to interpret the comic in places.

IMO the "smart fighter" in the OotSverse does not seem to put priority on flying, or that magic is rare*. For practical purposes, I would say that such is a setting defining axiom, and a lack of access flying says nothing about the cleverness of the individual.

We can see specific examples of arguably clever people who have "less flying" than we the experienced and savvy D&D players would expect: Tarquin, Roy, Julio (who needed rescuing once the carpet was destroyed).

* Of course, another to look at it is everyone (including me), who suggest flying potions and similar are a thing, are simply wrong.

Snails

2016-07-27, 06:40 PM

I'd say Dimension Door has less potential to break things in half than Invisibility does--for a start, Dimensional Anchor is a 4th-level spell for all classes, whereas True Seeing is 5th level for clerics and 7th for arcane casters. Also, DD tends to be really not very useful in open areas, since it's strictly short range and you're likely to still be in sight of your enemies after using it.

Like most such things in D&D, where life gets crazy is when using these fancy tricks in combination. DD + Invis. Flying + Invis. It is pretty easy to set up lethal ambushes.

In theory, the retail level counters to Invisibility are Spot, Listen, a well trained guardian animal with Scent. Obviously these tactics only mitigate the disadvantages of facing someone who can turn invisible, but at least they are possible to attempt at low level without being a spellcaster.

Ruck

2016-07-27, 07:13 PM

He did indeed say he needed to improve on taking his team seriously, with the specific example of paying attention to what Belkar said...and that he didn't pay attention because he didn't want to believe that anything had changed. There's quite a gap between "should've paid attention to" and "should've gone along with". Roy is committing to listening fairly to see if he agrees, not to any sort of deferral that increased reliance would entail.
Well, I think we're splitting hairs on the definition of "rely", then. I don't think "reliance" means he substitutes their judgment for his.

Concept

2016-07-27, 08:33 PM

My thoughts on mastering the sword are "master the sword," not make whatever kind of effect you desire happen in the vicinity of your sword.

If a mage is preparing to blast you, shatter the spell energy with great cleavage. If a magical barrier is in the way, destroy it with great cleavage. In other words, in order to maximize the power of your ancestral weapon, get really really good at using it. Other people on the team have other strengths, but Roy has a big sword.

I suppose a shock wave is ... vaguely plausible, but just holding a sword and wishing magical effects to happen (like a beam of energy) doesn't make any sense. What part of training with your sword could lead to that?

Jasdoif

2016-07-27, 09:20 PM

Well, I think we're splitting hairs on the definition of "rely", then. I don't think "reliance" means he substitutes their judgment for his.Well then, look at it this way:

Roy agreed that they wouldn't have to change plans if he'd listened to Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html). That he should have paid attention. That he needs to do a better job of taking his team seriously.

Not once did he say Belkar was right, or that Belkar was justified in splitting the moment they got inside the temple, or that he should have followed Belkar's lead at the splittage or at any point up to then. Just "Sorry, I'll try to listen to you better, so I can make the exact same decisions I would if I weren't blinded by my own emotional preferences." Where's the increase in reliance?

And for reference, compare this to when he says "No. But I trust her gut." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) Now that's reliance, an unequivocal statement that Haley's word is good enough for him, even when he has doubts of his own.

Mightymosy

2016-07-28, 12:03 AM

[...]
We can see specific examples of arguably clever people who have "less flying" than we the experienced and savvy D&D players would expect: Tarquin, Roy, Julio (who needed rescuing once the carpet was destroyed).
[...].

That's a nice comparison. These three characters are all basically the same in the sense that they can only hit things with sticks by themselves.

One of them went into battle riding a flying dinosaur (that later appeared when called) and still had a cleric who could cast flying with him. He also brought a psionic who could cast some sort of psionic teleport in order to get himself into position whenever he wished to hit someone with his stick.
Also, he had a reserve weapon that could hit a flying caster at range (not perfect - V lost altitude before because of Laurin's psy blast, but still).
Same character appearantly also has a garage full of magic carpets.

Honestly, now that I think about it, if Roy further wants to be the smart fighter, he maybe should take lessons from Tarquin, the much maligned strategical genius...(sarcasm added)

Julio also has at least one flying carpet, and his own personal airship.
While it's true that he was out of luck once his carpet was ripped by Tarquin, well, at least he had a way to get into range of hitting enemies with his chaos sabre in the first place.

Personally, I think that it is part of the author's way to show us a difference in characters' experience and skills. Tarquin and Julio are both veterans who know what they are doing (and are higher level than OotS I think) - to show that they are more prepared than Roy, who is still on his journey to become the smart fighter he aspires to be

tsj

2016-07-28, 01:37 PM

I think Roy should find out the sword has returning... it will be less goofy than a sword that shoots a magic beam and
Gearing up on flying gear is not Roys thing... he would become a copy of the other guys with flying stuff.

Throknor

2016-07-28, 04:19 PM

Not once did he say Belkar was right, or that Belkar was justified in splitting the moment they got inside the temple, or that he should have followed Belkar's lead at the splittage or at any point up to then.

He also doesn't say Belkar was wrong. I interpreted the whole 'I should have listened to you' admission to include that he (Roy) should not have trusted Durkon to the point he just let Durkon go without following him. Or even that he should have pressed when Gontor went from 'You have to stay outside' to 'I will escort you personally'*. I guess here I'm saying that he isn't judging Belkar either way because he feels his failures to listen to Belkar directly lead to Belkar having to take actions to prove himself as well as everything else that happened during the Godsmoot.

*I think that was Roy's biggest mistake. He made a big deal about 'Durkon has been a model member and the same as ever' but then just lets go how the introverted dwarf talked his way into a secret summit inside a zone of truth. Granted he would have probably believed whatever crap Durkon spouted out, but he still should have inquired.

Back on target - I don't think it will have a ranged attack, but maybe he'll find the green glow is (or can be made into) a positive-energy effect that can pierce the shield surprising Durkon immensely.

dancrilis

2016-07-28, 04:30 PM

Or even that he should have pressed when Gontor went from 'You have to stay outside' to 'I will escort you personally'*.
*I think that was Roy's biggest mistake.

I disagree - I think his biggest mistake was thinking Durkon went from Undead = Monster see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html), here (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), to 'Lad, it's ok (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html)' without blinking.

Throknor

2016-07-29, 09:35 AM

I disagree - I think his biggest mistake was thinking Durkon went from Undead = Monster see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html), here (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), to 'Lad, it's ok (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html)' without blinking.

I give him little bit of a pass on the immediate reaction as he didn't have time to think about it. His association with Belkar, his past actions in the prequel, and even his associations with V and Haley have conditioned him to generally judge creatures by their actions, and he could rationalize the change as going from under Malack's control to being free-willed; especially as he never saw Durkon do anything before he started helping. But once he had time to consider he even admits he's putting his gut ahead of believing what Belkar told him. It also occurs to me that he also had to weigh the morality of V's Familicide; on a hard scale Durkon was still way above V as well and I don't think it even occurred to him to not trust V. What I'm saying is that accepting him wasn't the mistake; it was to not be suspicious enough to the point that even when he suspected something at the moot he wasn't diligent in pinning down what was whispered - an obvious decision on Durkon's part to hide something from him.

Back to the sword - what if he somehow gets it to issue something like the Holy Word in an area effect? Would it be enough level-wise against Durkon & his cronies? Would it hurt Belkar? V? Haley & Elan? Any random not-Good dwarves nearby during the fight? Will it help him win the fight but start a new one?

factotum

2016-07-29, 10:26 AM

Back to the sword - what if he somehow gets it to issue something like the Holy Word in an area effect?

Holy Word already *is* an area effect, because it affects everyone who can hear it. I don't see a starmetal sword being likely to exhibit Holy effects, though; I always assumed the sword being extra effective against undead was due to a link to the Positive Energy Plane rather than any specific good/evil effect it has.

Snails

2016-07-29, 10:47 AM

Personally, I think that it is part of the author's way to show us a difference in characters' experience and skills. Tarquin and Julio are both veterans who know what they are doing (and are higher level than OotS I think) - to show that they are more prepared than Roy, who is still on his journey to become the smart fighter he aspires to be

That feels correct to me. We will see if that is where the Giant takes us.

Provided the world does not get destroyed by the gods via the effort of Greg, clearly this next subplot will have the unforeseen (by Roy) advantage of forcing the Order to figure out how handle a tough high level undead opponent and flesh out practical tactics. Sure, they had some inklings already, but they did seem rather underprepared for Xykon.

Snails

2016-07-29, 11:02 AM

I disagree - I think his biggest mistake was thinking Durkon went from Undead = Monster see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html), here (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), to 'Lad, it's ok (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html)' without blinking.

To be fair, there is nothing wrong with accepting the completely believable lie "Hey, I may be evil. But obviously I do not want the world to be destroyed. Look, I just helped you against Tarquin and probably saved all your lives."

On what basis does Roy decide to initiate a combat that may result in the vampire fleeing and losing Durkon's body forever? On what basis does Roy decided to initiate combat and sabotage their slim hope of standing up to Xykon by losing the only cleric they have?

The arguable mistake is that Roy used insufficient initiative in getting information about vampires to mitigate the potential problems and make backup plans. But even if the information that Durkon's soul is the puppet of an evil spirit falls into his lap, what can he do with that information until he has a friendly cleric to help him?

Hel's plot is a gobsmackingly unexpected twist that seems to have even caught the other Norse gods off balance. There is no reason to believe that any of the mortal clerics of the Norse gods could have pieced enough to together to help Roy in time.

dancrilis

2016-07-29, 11:21 AM

<Cut for lenght>

<Cut for lenght>

I think you both might be misinterpreting who I meant by 'I think his biggest mistake was thinking Durkon went from Undead = Monster see here, here and here, to 'Lad, it's ok' without blinking', the person who should have blinked was Durkon.
This is someone for who death was an event that he cried with joy because he could go home corrupted into an undead monster and his reaction was 'well lets try to find a cleric so I can live again - I'll be a better healer', not 'lets try to find a cleric so I can live again - I can't exist like this'.
Someone who's reaction to drinking bloodwart tea was 'yuck' who happilly snacked on Roy, Elan and Haley without issue.

Durkon took his change too calmly I think - and Roy should have picked up on that.

Being evil does not mean suddenly cool with the being undead after all.

The MunchKING

2016-07-29, 12:54 PM

zimmerwald1915

2016-07-29, 03:04 PM

We've seen a pair of boots that let you Dimension Door 3x per day! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html) Not clear if V did go back for them or not, though - I could buy either. But it seems like the sort of offering we'd expect the Order to get either way.
Unless she's pulling a Haley and keeping the boots in her pocket for a bad reason (and not even the same bad reason, since purple is already part of V's design), the balance of probabilities says she didn't buy them.

Keltest

2016-07-29, 03:16 PM

Unless she's pulling a Haley and keeping the boots in her pocket for a bad reason (and not even the same bad reason, since purple is already part of V's design), the balance of probabilities says she didn't buy them.

Perhaps he is wearing them underneath his other boots to help keep his delicate elven feet warm in the arctic?

DaggerPen

2016-07-30, 12:23 PM

Counterpoint - Elan's boots of elvenkind. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html) While Elan of course often does stuff just for drama/story, this one doesn't seem quite like that - he just kept it in reserve for stealth missions. I'd totally buy that V's current boots have some buff of their own and the dimension door boots that conveniently match vir color scheme are being kept in reserve for best usage.

Kami2awa

2016-08-01, 01:48 AM

On another hand, Roy has a party. He's the meatshield, not a ranged DPS. Which makes the lack of melee weapon far worse than the lack of ranged weapon.

Roy should learn to rely on the others rather than trying to be a Jack of all trades. He still can be faced with a lot of things he can't handle himseld.

Quoted for truth. Too many D&D builds focus on getting "the best character" not "the best party member". It's a team game, people!

factotum

2016-08-01, 02:53 AM

Quoted for truth. Too many D&D builds focus on getting "the best character" not "the best party member". It's a team game, people!

Which would be a valid criticism if this were a game we're talking about, but it's a story. Nobody is expecting Roy to become the ultimate best character, but it's been proven in the strip itself that there are situations where Roy is separated from the rest of his party and he simply can't do much. All he wants to do is make himself a bit more useful in that situation, not supplant the rest of the party.

Goblin_Priest

2016-08-01, 07:00 AM

Capacity overlap is usually an indicator of a well balanced party, if you ask me. Relying on Haley for ranged attacks is... begging for a wizard to target and petrify her.

The party's difficulty with ranged encounters has been illustrated a few times.

Psyren

2016-08-01, 12:05 PM

Steve L

2016-08-01, 02:29 PM

Jasdoif

2016-08-01, 11:59 PM

How big are sling stones in units of silver pieces?As bludgeoning projectiles that benefit from the attacker's strength, I think the weight is more important a factor than the size.

A set of ten sling bullets weighs 5 pounds. Five pounds of silver is worth 25gp, which means making the bullets out of pure silver is more expensive in material costs than the market price of alchemically silvered steel bullets.

The Artisan

2016-08-02, 07:56 AM

As bludgeoning projectiles that benefit from the attacker's strength, I think the weight is more important a factor than the size.

A set of ten sling bullets weighs 5 pounds. Five pounds of silver is worth 25gp, which means making the bullets out of pure silver is more expensive in material costs than the market price of alchemically silvered steel bullets.

You don't actually need them to be made of silver. Melt your coins and dip some small dense stones into them. That would take a lot less than 5 pounds of silver.

dancrilis

2016-08-02, 08:17 AM

You don't actually need them to be made of silver. Melt your coins and dip some small dense stones into them. That would take a lot less than 5 pounds of silver.

How do you intend to melt coins?

Stone has a hardness of 8 and Iron has 10 with wood having 5, let us say that a silver as a metal would fand ollow iron have 10 that means you need to do 11 damage before you do 1 point of damage to a silver coin.

However fire only does half damage against objects before hardness - so you need to do a minimim of 22 damage with fire to do 1 point of damage (rounding down), lets say that a coin is a quarter of an inch thick and an inch across that means that it would have 7 hit points (rounding down).

So non-magical fire is not getting this done an active volcano will (if you can fully immerse the coins in it but that how do you use it on your rocks?) merely having free flowing lave you are not submerging that you splatter on them won't achieve anything.

So to make your bullets you either need a magic user to produce the fire (and a fairly high level fire at that) or you can rely on Jasdoif's method and get them easilly in the shop.

There is an entire industry around producing bullets it likely has a lot of back office elements that your normal adventurer does not consider.

Peelee

2016-08-02, 09:28 AM

How do you intend to melt coins?

Stone has a hardness of 8 and Iron has 10 with wood having 5, let us say that a silver as a metal would fand ollow iron have 10 that means you need to do 11 damage before you do 1 point of damage to a silver coin.

However fire only does half damage against objects before hardness - so you need to do a minimim of 22 damage with fire to do 1 point of damage (rounding down), lets say that a coin is a quarter of an inch thick and an inch across that means that it would have 7 hit points (rounding down).

So non-magical fire is not getting this done an active volcano will (if you can fully immerse the coins in it but that how do you use it on your rocks?) merely having free flowing lave you are not submerging that you splatter on them won't achieve anything.

So to make your bullets you either need a magic user to produce the fire (and a fairly high level fire at that) or you can rely on Jasdoif's method and get them easilly in the shop.

There is an entire industry around producing bullets it likely has a lot of back office elements that your normal adventurer does not consider.

...you ignore hardness and just figure that, if iron has a melting point of 1,810 K and silver has a melting point of 1,234 K, that anyone who can melt iron can also melt silver. So, what, a few points in blacksmithing and a smithy ship as part of your backstory, if you have a really strict DM?

Rift_Wolf

2016-08-02, 09:50 AM

How do you intend to melt coins?

Stone has a hardness of 8 and Iron has 10 with wood having 5, let us say that a silver as a metal would fand ollow iron have 10 that means you need to do 11 damage before you do 1 point of damage to a silver coin.

However fire only does half damage against objects before hardness - so you need to do a minimim of 22 damage with fire to do 1 point of damage (rounding down), lets say that a coin is a quarter of an inch thick and an inch across that means that it would have 7 hit points (rounding down).

So non-magical fire is not getting this done an active volcano will (if you can fully immerse the coins in it but that how do you use it on your rocks?) merely having free flowing lave you are not submerging that you splatter on them won't achieve anything.

So to make your bullets you either need a magic user to produce the fire (and a fairly high level fire at that) or you can rely on Jasdoif's method and get them easilly in the shop.

There is an entire industry around producing bullets it likely has a lot of back office elements that your normal adventurer does not consider.

Silver has a lower melting point to iron and is significantly softer; it's hardness is going to be lower than 10 (think Pathfinder lists metal hardnesses? Will check books). Melting points would be an extrapolated hardness vs fire number; the idea that there's only one intensity of non-magical fire is a simplification in favour of kick door mechanics. If we're bringing in craft rules, without checking references you can probably melt coins on a wood fire. You can definitely do it with a coal fire, given enough time. If the Mechane has a steak grill, it can melt silver.
Begin the metallurgical dissection of this assessment!

hamishspence

2016-08-02, 09:53 AM

Alchemical silver is Hardness 8 - seems reasonable that ordinary silver would be the same:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm

dancrilis

2016-08-02, 09:54 AM

...you ignore hardness and just figure that, if iron has a melting point of 1,810 K and silver has a melting point of 1,234 K, that anyone who can melt iron can also melt silver. So, what, a few points in blacksmithing and a smithy ship as part of your backstory, if you have a really strict DM?

That may be true in our world - but DnD is not normally set in our world.

For example a Class 8 truck is about 16 tons where a Colossal creature is upwards of 125tons, yet when a dragon walks on gold it does not squash the coins together into a clump (as you might expect a truck to do if it was rolling over a bed of coins).

Weaponsmithing allows you to make swords (however that is actual done mechnically is up to the DM), and likely allows for Bullets - but it does not necessarally allow you to decide on how bullets 'should' be created and than use your own method to save money from the listed cost.

Bullets will cost you 1sp for the raw materials for 30 bullets, or 201sp for the raw materials for 30 Alchemical Silver bullets (assuming bullets are normally metal - if they are not you are out of luck), you are unlikely to get cheaper than than whether you melt down your silver or not - perhaps melting down silver is part of it, but if so you are likely losing some silver in the process.

Jasdoif

2016-08-02, 10:15 AM

You don't actually need them to be made of silver. Melt your coins and dip some small dense stones into them. That would take a lot less than 5 pounds of silver.I double-checked and I'm actually not sure that even pure silver would work now; the section on damage reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) highlights "alchemical silver", implying that DR/silver is actually shorthand for damage reduction against alchemical silver.

Weaponsmithing allows you to make swords (however that is actual done mechnically is up to the DM), and likely allows for Bullets - but it does not necessarally allow you to decide on how bullets 'should' be created and than use your own method to save money from the listed cost.

Bullets will cost you 1sp for the raw materials for 30 bullets, or 201sp for the raw materials for 30 Alchemical Silver bullets (assuming bullets are normally metal - if they are not you are out of luck), you are unlikely to get cheaper than than whether you melt down your silver or not - perhaps melting down silver is part of it, but if so you are likely losing some silver in the process.That would be Craft checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm). Basically you pay one-third the market price in raw materials and make progress towards completion on a week-by-week or day-by-day basis; and if you really mess up a check you have to replace half the raw materials.

Or maybe fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm).

I just checked the PHB for the extended weapon descriptions and typical bullets are made of lead, not steel like I thought (I'm pretty sure I saw a mention of steel bullets somewhere but I don't recall where now...this polymorph thing must be splitting my memory); lead's still a metal, though, so it's valid for alchemical silvering.

dancrilis

2016-08-02, 11:09 AM

That would be Craft checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm).
Yep, that would be them and they have much more affect on a DnD universe than the melting point of silver in our non-DnD universe.

Cazero

2016-08-02, 11:15 AM

Yep, that would be them and they have much more affect on a DnD universe than the melting point of silver in our non-DnD universe.
And skill checks ignore hardness, HP, and the normal value of damage dealt by mundane heat, making your previous argument about melting silver moot. Any blacksmith can melt silver without trouble, just like lumberjacks can chop down trees despite being unable to ever overcome their DR/hardness.

dancrilis

2016-08-02, 11:20 AM

And skill checks ignore hardness, HP, and the normal value of damage dealt by mundane heat, making your previous argument about melting silver moot. Any blacksmith can melt silver without trouble, just like lumberjacks can chop down trees despite being unable to ever overcome their DR/hardness.

The previous point is that you need Craft to do it - and Craft has rules, trying to melt down silver to make bullets without Craft (or magic) is not going to be easy because in that case they would have Hardness and Hit Points.

littlebum2002

2016-08-02, 11:42 AM

The previous point is that you need Craft to do it - and Craft has rules, trying to melt down silver to make bullets without Craft (or magic) is not going to be easy because in that case they would have Hardness and Hit Points.

LOL please show us where in the description of the Craft skill that it allows you to bypass hardness and hit points when melting metal.

In fact, please show us where in the description of the Craft skill that "a pool of melted metal" is one of the things that this skill is designed to help you create. Spoiler alert: it doesn't, because Craft is designed to help you make things, not break them down. Melting something is just as easy for a normal person as it would be for someone with a Craft skill.

Using your logic, you would need to make a Craft check when lighting a candle to bypass the wax's hardness and hit points.

Jasdoif

2016-08-02, 11:44 AM

And skill checks ignore hardness, HP, and the normal value of damage dealt by mundane heat, making your previous argument about melting silver moot.I think it'd be more meaningful to say the raw materials cost abstracts away the implementation details of getting silver into Craft-check-able form.

dancrilis

2016-08-02, 11:53 AM

LOL please show us where in the description of the Craft skill that it allows you to bypass hardness and hit points when melting metal.

In fact, please show us where in the description of the Craft skill that "a pool of melted metal" is one of the things that this skill is designed to help you create. Spoiler alert: it doesn't, because Craft is designed to help you make things, not break them down. Melting something is just as easy for a normal person as it would be for someone with a Craft skill.

Using your logic, you would need to make a Craft check when lighting a candle to bypass the wax's hardness and hit points.

I think you might be responding to Cazero on:

And skill checks ignore hardness, HP, and the normal value of damage dealt by mundane heat, .

Which I referenced in my post.

But in answer they allow you to bypass Hardness etc, because Hardness etc are not used in Craft the craft skill - as such if you want to use metal in your craft you don't need to worry about how to damage its existing shape or structure.

Also Candles follow there own rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#candle

Candle
A candle dimly illuminates a 5-foot radius and burns for 1 hour.

Neither Craft nor damage rules are needed.

Rift_Wolf

2016-08-02, 01:06 PM

I always assumed alchemical silver was silver plating by a different name; because solid silver heavy weapons like warhammers would be thousands of gp in value, but modern electro-plating would be an Alchemists purview.

Presumably anyone can make a silver puddle... The craft check stops you ruining or spilling it and lets you use the crucible effectively. Theoretically, the craft DC for using a crucible and boiling water on a hob is the same (just with larger variables)

Siosilvar

2016-08-02, 02:11 PM

It seems to me that hardness obviously does not apply to things that physics say should work... otherwise, how does a forest fire (1d6 fire damage per round) ever even start against hardness 5 wood?

dancrilis

2016-08-02, 02:41 PM

It seems to me that hardness obviously does not apply to things that physics say should work... otherwise, how does a forest fire (1d6 fire damage per round) ever even start against hardness 5 wood?

I believe that forest fires may be classified as acts of god and therefore could likely be generated via a Salient Divine Abilities.

Jasdoif

2016-08-02, 02:52 PM

It seems to me that hardness obviously does not apply to things that physics say should work... otherwise, how does a forest fire (1d6 fire damage per round) ever even start against hardness 5 wood?Ah, that falls under "Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#vulnerabilitytoCertainAttacks)"

It's basically "pfft, I dunno" but formally phrased.

littlebum2002

2016-08-02, 03:04 PM

I think you might be responding to Cazero on:

Which I referenced in my post.

But in answer they allow you to bypass Hardness etc, because Hardness etc are not used in Craft the craft skill - as such if you want to use metal in your craft you don't need to worry about how to damage its existing shape or structure.

Also Candles follow there own rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#candle

Neither Craft nor damage rules are needed.

No, I'm referring to:

trying to melt down silver to make bullets without Craft (or magic) is not going to be easy because in that case they would have Hardness and Hit Points.
Which, as I've mentioned, is stupid because "puddle of molten metal" is not one of the things listed that needs the Craft skill to make.

Also:

It seems to me that hardness obviously does not apply to things that physics say should work... otherwise, how does a forest fire (1d6 fire damage per round) ever even start against hardness 5 wood?

Imagine trying to use matches in D&D! You keep striking that match, but you can't overcome the 5 hardness!

Paper is made from wood as well, so you can't light it on fire, either!

Unless you have Craft! Because then fire behaves differently! You light a fire under a bowl of silver, nothing happens! You level up in Craft, suddenly the silver begins to melt because...reasons!

I mean there are some dumb rules in D&D without having to make up your own. And "you need to make a skill check to use fire correctly" is about one of the dumbest I've ever heard.

dancrilis

2016-08-02, 03:22 PM

<snip>
It should be noted that Craft can be used untrained, also for a fire Survival might work (if you can argue that it is to keep you safe or fed in the wild - but you probably should not try in indoors), and some profession or preform checks might work (other skills might be used also I suppose).

For starting a fire however you are probably best using Flint and Steel which can be used to light a torch as a Full Round Action without a check.

Knaight

2016-08-02, 03:58 PM

I believe that forest fires may be classified as acts of god and therefore could likely be generated via a Salient Divine Abilities.

An alternate method would be to just tone down the whole "RAW as physics" thing a bit, which also conveniently opens up sources of forest fire that aren't acts of god, such as people being sloppy with camp fires.

dancrilis

2016-08-02, 04:08 PM

An alternate method would be to just tone down the whole "RAW as physics" thing a bit, which also conveniently opens up sources of forest fire that aren't acts of god, such as people being sloppy with camp fires.

Pft - this is a fine approach to take if you want to.

But you might find your players trying to delibrately cause accidents to light up the forest to deal with the bandits camp you expected them to fight, or to try to argue that burning wood should generate smoke and thereby use Smoke Effects by burning wood at the entrance of a cave system to knock all the enemies in it unconsious (using emerging smoke to find other holes to plug), or similiar.

Once you start allowing players to get away with things like burning wood and generating smoke they will likely try to get away with other things (similiarly once your DM allows you to get away with it expect the Kobolds in the next adventure to be able to also apply real world physics to there traps).

This way lies madness.

littlebum2002

2016-08-02, 04:11 PM

It should be noted that Craft can be used untrained, also for a fire Survival might work (if you can argue that it is to keep you safe or fed in the wild - but you probably should not try in indoors), and some profession or preform checks might work (other skills might be used also I suppose).

For starting a fire however you are probably best using Flint and Steel which can be used to light a torch as a Full Round Action without a check.

So if you want to melt Silver, then you can just put loads of dry wood under your crucible, attach a lightning rod to it, and hope lightning catches it on fire because somehow fire which is caused by lightning is hotter than fire you light yourself. That makes loads of sense.

Keltest

2016-08-02, 04:18 PM

So if you want to melt Silver, then you can just put loads of dry wood under your crucible, attach a lightning rod to it, and hope lightning catches it on fire because somehow fire which is caused by lightning is hotter than fire you light yourself. That makes loads of sense.

What are you even arguing here? That a misapplication of the rules of D&D is going to create scenarios that conflict with reality?

No kidding.

littlebum2002

2016-08-02, 04:22 PM

What are you even arguing here? That a misapplication of the rules of D&D is going to create scenarios that conflict with reality?

No kidding.

No, that's obvious. I'm arguing that "puddle of molten metal" and "pile of ash" are items that do not need a Craft check to create.

Peelee

2016-08-02, 04:40 PM

No, I'm referring to:

Which, as I've mentioned, is stupid because "puddle of molten metal" is not one of the things listed that needs the Craft skill to make.

[snip]

Unless you have Craft! Because then fire behaves differently! You light a fire under a bowl of silver, nothing happens! You level up in Craft, suddenly the silver begins to melt because...reasons!

I mean there are some dumb rules in D&D without having to make up your own. And "you need to make a skill check to use fire correctly" is about one of the dumbest I've ever heard.

Imean, it's not actually unreasonable. I'm starting to get into smithing, which means I'm doing lots of research before I even buy my first crucible. Plus, you can't jsut have any old fire. After a bit of lookin' into it, most fireplaces get between 810 K to 1088 K at their hottest, (and that 1088 K is pretty much an upper limit, so I don't expect most to get that hot), while silver melts at 1234 K; gonna need to know how to build the right fire to get that to melt. I don't think it's out of bounds to require a Craft check to see if you have the requisite skills and knowledge to know how hot you need a fire to get to melt a metal, know how to build such a fire to melt that metal, and know what tools/ have the tools required to collect that metal.

EDIT: I should point out gas fireplaces were the ones hitting the hotter ranges; wood fireplaces weren't even breaking 1000.

EDIT 2: Forgot to add, most home furnaces use coal as fuel, as coal burns at 2250 K You can melt quite a few metals with coal.

littlebum2002

2016-08-03, 08:44 AM

Imean, it's not actually unreasonable. I'm starting to get into smithing, which means I'm doing lots of research before I even buy my first crucible. Plus, you can't jsut have any old fire. After a bit of lookin' into it, most fireplaces get between 810 K to 1088 K at their hottest, (and that 1088 K is pretty much an upper limit, so I don't expect most to get that hot), while silver melts at 1234 K; gonna need to know how to build the right fire to get that to melt. I don't think it's out of bounds to require a Craft check to see if you have the requisite skills and knowledge to know how hot you need a fire to get to melt a metal, know how to build such a fire to melt that metal, and know what tools/ have the tools required to collect that metal.

EDIT: I should point out gas fireplaces were the ones hitting the hotter ranges; wood fireplaces weren't even breaking 1000.

EDIT 2: Forgot to add, most home furnaces use coal as fuel, as coal burns at 2250 K You can melt quite a few metals with coal.

Saying "your fire needs to be hot enough to do what you need it to do" is one thing. That actually makes sense.

Saying "fire only bypasses Hardness if you pass a Craft Check" doesn't make any sense in any context. The Craft skill is designed to be used to create things, not to burn them.

Keltest

2016-08-03, 03:42 PM

Saying "your fire needs to be hot enough to do what you need it to do" is one thing. That actually makes sense.

Saying "fire only bypasses Hardness if you pass a Craft Check" doesn't make any sense in any context. The Craft skill is designed to be used to create things, not to burn them.

I ask again: what are you trying to prove here? There is a rule that allows fire to bypass hardness on wood because wood is vulnerable to fire. You need a craft check to do the same for silver because just exposing it to any old fire is probably not going to be enough to significantly affect it.

Knaight

2016-08-03, 04:03 PM

Pft - this is a fine approach to take if you want to.

But you might find your players trying to delibrately cause accidents to light up the forest to deal with the bandits camp you expected them to fight, or to try to argue that burning wood should generate smoke and thereby use Smoke Effects by burning wood at the entrance of a cave system to knock all the enemies in it unconsious (using emerging smoke to find other holes to plug), or similiar.

I encourage this sort of thing, and NPCs will also pull this sort of stuff against the players. There are reasonable limits on it (burning wood at the entrance of a cave system is only going to work for certain fairly minimal cave systems, and that's if nothing in the cave manages to remove or extinguish it), but it's generally done to some extent. If anything I'd rather it were done more often.

littlebum2002

2016-08-03, 04:26 PM

OK, I'll concede the fact that melting Silver is difficult enough that some sort of check may be used to determine if you're smart enough to figure out how to make a fire that hot. Heck, I probably wouldn't be able to figure it out on my own.

However:

1) it has nothing to do with hardness. Hardness is about breaking something, not melting it. Either your fire is hot enough or it isn't, the hardness of the metal and the damage done by the fire don't factor into melt-ability, and

2) it certainly does not use the Craft skill.

A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill.

So this would fall under Profession (Metallurgist) or something similar.

Peelee

2016-08-03, 04:37 PM

Imean, technically, those are both wrong. If you want to get semantic about it. All metals are, by definition, malleable, and you can increase that malleability by, say, heating it. A very strong, very hard metal can become very soft when heated enough. A steel bar can turn into a steel noodle well before it melts. How that works into hardness in D&D? I'll burn that bridge when i come to it.

Also, melting is a phase change. In essence, you're taking a solid, and creating a liquid. You are not destroying anything (well, anything not abstract. You could be destroying "art," for instance). A lot of melting in home smithing, for instance, is taking scrap metal and melting them into molds for easy storage and future use, which would be creating ingots. Or, if you do something like lost wax casting, you are creating casts. Both of these are creation by melting, even if you ignore the phase change argument.

I hope soon to be making my own ingots.

DaggerPen

2016-08-04, 12:43 AM