Unarmed Ninja using WIS for ki: what are the advantages?

[Von Zinzer]

So I’m trying to build a party face/skill monkey/unarmed combatant Ninja using the very helpful guide “Death from the Shadow” by Jb200. In that guide, they suggest a 4-level dip in Monk in order to get Flurry of Blows, Evasion, etc. They also suggest that this allows your ki pool to be WIS-based instead of the typical Ninja’s CHA-based pool...


“A level 4 dip in Monk allows you to have ki off wisdom, which is much better than Cha.”

Jb200 never gets into why they they’re of that opinion. Personally, I see more utility in skills that key off of CHA—especially for a “face” character—and can’t quite wrap my head around why WIS is preferred. I mean, sure, Perception is important, and having good WILL saves too. Help me out here? What am I missing?

[Psyren]

I can’t quite wrap my head around why WIS is preferred.


I mean, sure, Perception is important, and having good WILL saves too.

Looks like you answered your own question. Charisma is certainly nice for social situations, but high Perception and Will are more likely to actually save your life unless you're in a very social campaign. And the thing about social skills is that usually only one person in the party needs them, while a decent will save and decent Perception are helpful for everyone. (Basically, any roll that the whole party routinely has to make is one that is good to optimize, regardless of what you're playing.)

Also, you get Wis to AC, and this will stack with your Bracers of Armor (whenever you get around to buying those) or Mage Armor (from an item, ally, or Major Magic.)

[stack]

Perception and will saves are big. You don't want to tank either by dumping Wis, but if you aren't the face and don't need Cha for class features it can be dumped much more safely. Downside here is that ninja tricks that have saves are Cha based, so you might want to plan around that.

Edit - ninja'd (appropriate) while confirming the saves are Cha based

[CharonsHelper]

I'm guessing that it's two-fold.

1. Will saves. Will saves are huge - there's a reason that very few characters dump Wisdom - most have at least a 12 in point-buy.

2. You get both stats. Both Charisma & Wisdom affect your ki pool. Having 2 stats is advantageous.


Of note though - I'm not sure if a 4 level monk dip is worth it if you really just want to be a ninja. It's certainly not a bad dip, but it's not a must-have.

Though if you do decide to go for it - make sure to either go with Unchained Monk for full BAB, d10 HD, & a better flurry (though weaker Will save), or take both the Qinggong & drunken master archetypes (drunken master will let you start every fight with 1 bonus ki).

[Psyren]

Another option is VMC Monk (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/skillsAndOptions/variantMulticlassing.html). This way you get full Ninja progression, the increased ki pool, and various monk abilities actually earlier than the Ninja could get them alone. For example, a Ninja VMC Monk gets Evasion at 7th, whereas a normal Ninja can't get Evasion until 10th. You can also continue to wear armor until you can afford your bracers, and then take it off in favor of the dodge bonus.



2. You get both stats. Both Charisma & Wisdom affect your ki pool. Having 2 stats is advantageous.

This is false, you only get one modifier to your pool. (You can choose which one though.)

"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."

[CharonsHelper]

This is false, you only get one modifier to your pool. (You can choose which one though.)

"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."

My bad. (I've never played a ninja.) Though my advice about monk archetypes still stands.

[Von Zinzer]

Looks like you answered your own question...unless you're in a very social campaign...
Yeah, I kind of did, didn't I? (Sorry.) GM has served us notice that it will be a very social campaign. I guess I might just be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole (a square ninja into a round character concept).


Also, you get Wis to AC...
Derp, of couse. Missed that.


Downside here is that ninja tricks that have saves are Cha based, so you might want to plan around that.
That is a great point I hadn't considered. No way to get the saves to be WIS-based, eh?


...take both the Qinggong & drunken master archetypes...
Good god the GM is going to hate me. Stacking archetypes on alternate class features on and on and on.. :smallsmile:


Another option is VMC Monk (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/skillsAndOptions/variantMulticlassing.html).
Still waiting to be informed whether VMC is going to be allowed in this campaign, alas.

[CharonsHelper]

Also of note - you might consider taking the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to keep your Sneak Attack decent despite the monk dip.

[Psyren]

That is a great point I hadn't considered. No way to get the saves to be WIS-based, eh?

You could just stick to tricks that don't have a save at all. Stuff like Acrobatic Master, Shadow Clones, Slow Reactions, Vanishing Trick, Style Master, Rogue Talent etc.

[CharonsHelper]

You could just stick to tricks that don't have a save at all. Stuff like Acrobatic Master, Shadow Clones, Slow Reactions, Vanishing Trick, Style Master, Rogue Talent etc.

Indeed. Frankly - even if you had a standard ninja's Charisma, it wouldn't be high enough to get very good DCs anyway, especially being 4 ninja levels behind after the monk dip.

[pilvento]

First of all, see if your DM allows you to play the "unchained Ninja" For both the unchained rogue and monk goodstuff

[CharonsHelper]

First of all, see if your DM allows you to play the "unchained Ninja" For both the unchained rogue and monk goodstuff

I'm pretty sure that there was an errata saying that you can't play an unchained ninja.

[pilvento]

I'm pretty sure that there was an errata saying that you can't play an unchained ninja.

There is an independent unchained ninja class in the paizo OGL, from a 3rd party of course but its simple and solid. Just give it a read it will take you like 2 minutes.

[Von Zinzer]

Yeah Unchained is off the table, GM's ruled it out. Alas!

But anyway, it seems to come down to the eternal multi-classing question: "Is adding a Monk dip more effective than straight-Ninja?" I'll add here the bonus question of "Can the point buy be massaged so as to allow for sufficient CHA to be an effective Party Face?"

Thanks for all your help... I'll post a build thread once I get this sorted.

[CharonsHelper]

I'll add here the bonus question of "Can the point buy be massaged so as to allow for sufficient CHA to be an effective Party Face?"

I know there's a trait that lets you use INT instead of CHA, and I think there may be one which lets you use WIS instead of CHA too.

As to the builds - they're very different things. 4 monk levels is hardly just a dip - it's enough to change the character's focus. Heck, in most campaigns I've played it'd be about 1/2 my levels.

So - it can be effective if what you want is a monk/ninja hybrid. If you're just looking to be the best sneaky back-stabby ninja you can be, I'd probably just go straight ninja.

[Psyren]

What's your point buy/rolls? If you can get at least a 14 into both Wis and Cha, the monk dip would to me be mostly unnecessary. If you want more saves, items will do the trick, and if you want more Perception, go for Ninja Trick -> Rogue Talent -> Canny Observer for a big bonus.

[Kurald Galain]

So I’m trying to build a party face/skill monkey/unarmed combatant Ninja using the very helpful guide “Death from the Shadow” by Jb200. In that guide, they suggest a 4-level dip in Monk in order to get Flurry of Blows, Evasion, etc. They also suggest that this allows your ki pool to be WIS-based instead of the typical Ninja’s CHA-based pool...
I've never heard of this guide, but dipping four levels sounds like a pretty bad idea to me. A one-level dip is great because it gives you flurry of blows, but otherwise you'll be missing out on several ninja tricks as well as sneak attack progression.

Plus you want to be party face; that means you'll have better charisma than wisdom.

[Von Zinzer]

Heck, in most campaigns I've played it'd be about 1/2 my levels.
Yeah I can see that. I'm happy to have a pretty reliable group; most of our campaigns have maxed out at 13/14.


What's your point buy/rolls? If you can get at least a 14 into both Wis and Cha, the monk dip would to me be mostly unnecessary. If you want more saves, items will do the trick, and if you want more Perception, go for Ninja Trick -> Rogue Talent -> Canny Observer for a big bonus.
20-point buy. So 14 in both is doable. Canny Observer is tasty... must be some other Rogue Talents that suit.


I've never heard of this guide...one-level dip is great because it gives you flurry...Plus you want to be party face; that means you'll have better charisma than wisdom.
Guide can be found via the guide compendium thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233029-PF-Optimization-Guides-Compendium). And yeah, I'm loving flurry. Going to try to have some claws (Aasimar/Tiefling alternate characteristics or maybe Eldritch Heritage: Ghoul). Basically this character will be very silly but somehow... cool, I hope? :smallbiggrin:

[CharonsHelper]

Going to try to have some claws (Aasimar/Tiefling alternate characteristics or maybe Eldritch Heritage: Ghoul). Basically this character will be very silly but somehow... cool, I hope? :smallbiggrin:

In Pathfinder you can't use any natural weapons in the same turn that you flurry.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder you can't use any natural weapons in the same turn that you flurry.

Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) will allow him to flurry with his ghoul claws, giving multiple chances to paralyze. That's a lot of feats to sink into a niche technique though.

[CharonsHelper]

Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) will allow him to flurry with his ghoul claws, giving multiple chances to paralyze. That's a lot of feats to sink into a niche technique though.

True - you can flurry with the nat weapon, but you can't flurry and ALSO use nat weapons, so it's rarely worth it. If you're going for a race with nat weapons, a monk should probably go with the Master of Many Styles archetype (it gives up Flurry), but it doesn't work very well with dipping. (A Tengu Master of Many Styles is one of my builds on the back-burner, though it would suck until 3-4 when you grab the Agile AoMF.)

[Sayt]

Monk and Ninja ki pools also grant different abilities: they both get the extra attack, but Ninjas also get a +4 insight to stealth for a round, and always count as having a running up on acrobatics to jump, whereas Monk's instead gets a 1 round speed boost and a 1 round +4 dodge AC. (Interestingly, the Unchained monk only gets the bonus attack. That said, he does get ki powers)

[Von Zinzer]

In Pathfinder you can't use any natural weapons in the same turn that you flurry.

Well, crap. I was under the impression that because Flurry was a full-attack action, and because natural weapons are added on top of full attacks, you could add natural weapons to a flurry. Psyren's right in saying that sinking a ton of feats into a niche technique doesn't really make sense. I'm really starting to lean toward 1 level of monk (for Flurry, etc.) as you suggested above. Having never seen an unarmed character be terribly effective, however, I'm a bit concerned about, well, doing negligible damage when I punch that beholder right in the eye-stalk.

[Spore]

A Monk 4 dip is harsh if you try to do Ninja things during it. I say Monk 4/Ninja is likely a build that starts to shine later on. Because you delay the important Invisible Blade. I don't like the Monk dip because Invisible Blade is vital for the later damage output (although casters will have "see invisibility" or true seeing later anyway).

[CharonsHelper]

Well, crap. I was under the impression that because Flurry was a full-attack action, and because natural weapons are added on top of full attacks, you could add natural weapons to a flurry. Psyren's right in saying that sinking a ton of feats into a niche technique doesn't really make sense. I'm really starting to lean toward 1 level of monk (for Flurry, etc.) as you suggested above. Having never seen an unarmed character be terribly effective, however, I'm a bit concerned about, well, doing negligible damage when I punch that beholder right in the eye-stalk.

If you're only dipping 1 level, you should definitely not fight unarmed. You should instead flurry with a monk weapon. (will be better damage, better crit, and cheaper to enchant)

If you go Unchained Monk they get a better flurry and proficiency with all Monk weapons (d10 sword flurry is nice) - but a single level dip makes you lose the combined ki pool - which seemed to be your main purpose.

But - you'd need to be unarmored to flurry unless you go with the Sohei archetype (doesn't combo with Unchained monk). And if you don't have a solid WIS, your AC will suck when unarmored.

[Psyren]

True - you can flurry with the nat weapon, but you can't flurry and ALSO use nat weapons, so it's rarely worth it.

Actually this is incorrect too - FCT does let you combine unarmed and natural weapons in any combination you choose. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd) Rather, the real problem is that this won't get you any additional attacks beyond what the flurry itself would give you.

For instance, if you had a pair of claws and could flurry for up to 4 attacks, with Feral Combat Training you could choose any combination of:

4 punches/kicks
3 punches/kicks, 1 claw
2 punches/kicks, 2 claws
1 punch/kick, 3 claws
4 claws

But you wouldn't be able to flurry for more than the 4 attacks the flurry gave you.

But for a natural attack with an additional rider like the Ghoul Claws have, this actually has a benefit - flurry allows you to get more than twice as many claw attacks (and thus, more than twice as many chances to paralyze their foe) as someone without flurry. Also, claws are both slashing and piercing, so you could potentially have a better time with DR than someone who can only punch.

Another benefit to FCT-flurry is that it allows you to use some monk-only tricks with your claws. For example, with FCT the extra attack from your ki pool can be performed with a claw, giving you yet another chance to paralyze. It also means your claw attacks benefit from the penalty reduction from Ring of Adept Maneuvers.


Monk and Ninja ki pools also grant different abilities: they both get the extra attack, but Ninjas also get a +4 insight to stealth for a round, and always count as having a running up on acrobatics to jump, whereas Monk's instead gets a 1 round speed boost and a 1 round +4 dodge AC. (Interestingly, the Unchained monk only gets the bonus attack. That said, he does get ki powers)

Both of those additional effects are sadly separate ki powers for the uMonk. (They badly need an "Extra Ki Power" feat, or better yet, a "Forgotten Power" wildcard similar to the one the Ninja can select to give them access to the more niche powers without hurting their builds.)


Well, crap. I was under the impression that because Flurry was a full-attack action, and because natural weapons are added on top of full attacks, you could add natural weapons to a flurry. Psyren's right in saying that sinking a ton of feats into a niche technique doesn't really make sense. I'm really starting to lean toward 1 level of monk (for Flurry, etc.) as you suggested above. Having never seen an unarmed character be terribly effective, however, I'm a bit concerned about, well, doing negligible damage when I punch that beholder right in the eye-stalk.

As noted above, your primary concern isn't the type of attack you're using, it should instead be what is special about that natural attack itself that makes it worth spending resources like this on. Ghoul Claws are potentially worth going to the trouble of flurrying with them because paralysis is a painful effect to use on the enemy, and flurry can double or triple the number of saves they have to make.

[CharonsHelper]

Actually this is incorrect too - FCT does let you combine unarmed and natural weapons in any combination you choose. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd) Rather, the real problem is that this won't get you any additional attacks beyond what the flurry itself would give you.

I didn't say that you couldn't. I said that you couldn't flurry and ALSO use nat weapons - which you can't. You can only use nat weapons as part of the flurry.

[Von Zinzer]

Ghoul Claws are potentially worth going to the trouble of flurrying with them because paralysis is a painful effect to use on the enemy, and flurry can double or triple the number of saves they have to make.

This is actually sounding really cool, albeit maybe a bit away from what I originally intended. What would be needed to pull this off?

FCT requires Improved Unarmed Strike (which monks get for free) and Weapon Focus. Would Weapon Focus be in Unarmed or in Natural Attacks in this case? [Sub-question: can you Weapon Focus a natural attack that you only have for x rounds/day?]

Access to Ghoul Claws is either via Skill Focus + Eldritch Heritage or VMC Sorcerer-Ghoul Bloodline. The second strikes me as possibly more efficient, because otherwise we're looking at 4 feats to unlock this combo, and the rest of the Ghoul Bloodline powers are also pretty useful in this context. I end up making some kind of Monkcerer.

So the whole trick basically comes online at level 5... or level 3 if you go Half-Elf for the free Skill Focus?