[Spell] Hold that thought, would you?

[Peregrine]

Deferral
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 3 2
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action; see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature or object; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell causes another spell to be delayed by one round. You use a counterspelling action to cast deferral, although you need not successfully identify a spell in order to defer it. You must succeed on a caster level check against the caster of the spell to be deferred.

If the spell to be deferred has a target, the deferral has the same target. If the deferred spell instead has an area or effect, the target of the deferral is the deferred spell's caster. In the former case, deferral can only target one creature or object; if a deferred spell specifies multiple targets, the caster of the deferral must select one.

A deferred spell that specifies a target affects that target as normal, one round later, assuming that the target is still valid for the deferred spell. (For example, a deferred cure spell will fail if its target is slain before the cure can take effect.) A deferred spell with an area or effect originates from the same location and affects the same area, even if the caster has moved.

[hr]
The level of this spell is a complete guesstimate. I think I've removed a few potentially broken uses that occurred to me during writing; actually I'm not even sure how some of them would be abused, I just get a funny feeling that it would be abuseable if, for instance, I made it have a duration of one round and somebody went and persisted it.

Thoughts?

Edit: Changed spell level. Thinking of adding another bit, but I'll post it for discussion first...

[jindra34]

either extend the delay or lower the level...

[Joltz]

It looks like an interesting spell. I agree about the level though, I think 2 suits it. Dispel magic is a third level spell, and it's better than this in most situations. Sure, it delays the spell without giving the caster an opportunity to resist, but it still only delays it one round. That may be helpful, but it's not (usually) going to be as effective as fully counterspelling it to begin with.

[Peregrine]

You're probably right. Keep in mind, though, that it isn't necessarily an antagonistic thing... a pair of casters can team up to defer all kinds of nasty tricks on pursuing enemies, say.

[Peregrine]

Okay, I've bumped down the level, to make it lower than dispel magic.

Now, I'm having a thought. How does this affect rays? A ray is an effect, not a target. If the target has moved, by the spell as written, the ray still shoots at their old location.

1) What if the target moves? My idea here is to make it shoot blindly into the square, just as if you were shooting at an invisible enemy (50% miss chance). Sound good?

2) What, then, if the target hasn't moved? I can see arguments both ways, as to whether it should benefit from the miss chance or not. I think it should.

Thoughts? Comments?

(And how exactly would rays work with the Repeat Spell feat, anyway? Are they covered by the line, "If the original spell designates a ranged target, the repeated spell affects the same target if it is within 30 feet of its original position", or does that only apply to spells with a Target line? Should I take this question to the Gaming forum?)

[psychoticbarber]

If I were GMing the ray, it would fire in the direction it was originally pointed, hitting whoever happened to be in the way and closest to the caster. If no-one had moved to be on that line, and the original target had moved off it, the ray would continue until it struck a wall or its maximum range was reached.

Possible Variant: When the caster points his finger, expecting a ray, and nothing happens, he examines his finger, and....

What? Too "Three Stooges"? :smallbiggrin:

[Maldraugedhen]

Heh, and here I thought this spell would be for a caster to literally pass a thought from his mind into another character's, 'holding the thought' for them.

[keyboardboy101]

Can this affect personal spells? (Delaying a wizards mage armor one round so that your fighter can attack or so on)

A lot of offensive possibilities with this spell too. Especially if you have two or three casters.

If the target hasn't moved from the time when the spell was originally cast there probably shouldn't be a miss chance. Leaving up to the DMs discretion of course, the target is still in the line of fire essentially and the spell is still travelling towards them. On the otherhand, if you have the ray-stays-inside-the-finger variant (which definitely has its potential), the caster might have moved his finger a little in that round and there should be a miss chance (50% probably, maybe less)

[Peregrine]

Can this affect personal spells? (Delaying a wizards mage armor one round so that your fighter can attack or so on)

Hmm... I guess it's not too clear on personal-range effect spells is it? I mean, they'd act like "Target: You", and should be treated as such by deferral, but as written they'd just pop into air where the caster was standing. But maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Mage armour isn't one of them though... that's a touch-range spell. So yes, you can delay mage armour for a round. But what spells would this problem affect? Matter of fact, I can't find any personal-range effect spells... most of them are "Range: Personal, Target: You".

Zone of silence? It's a personal-range area spell -- but the area specifies that it's centred on you...

...yup. Every other SRD spell with range: personal has a target line. So they're all adequately covered by the spell as written.

Or to answer your question in brief: Yes, it can. :smallsmile:


A lot of offensive possibilities with this spell too. Especially if you have two or three casters.

Oh I know... I keep wanting to write some out. :smallbiggrin: I especially like the idea of deferring an enemy's spell, then using baleful transposition...


If the target hasn't moved from the time when the spell was originally cast there probably shouldn't be a miss chance. Leaving up to the DMs discretion of course, the target is still in the line of fire essentially and the spell is still travelling towards them. On the otherhand, if you have the ray-stays-inside-the-finger variant (which definitely has its potential), the caster might have moved his finger a little in that round and there should be a miss chance (50% probably, maybe less)

Well, despite the comic possibilities of the spell still being 'in the finger', and believe me it's an appealing idea :smalltongue:, the way I envision it is that the spell is cast, it exists, it just hasn't taken effect yet. It doesn't stay in the caster's finger, it stays in the air where his finger was, and it goes off in five... four... three...

So, when you cast a ray, the caster aims his ranged touch attack... and nothing. Six seconds later, the ray fires. Now, if exactly the same target is occupying that space -- well it's not an autohit normally, so why should it be now? At the very least, there should be another ranged touch attack made, using the same attack roll the caster had last round (but denied true strike or similar), though against the target's current AC (if it's different). But I think it should suffer 50% miss chance, and here's why.

Say a different character now occupies the target square. The ray is still coming right for them, but the caster hasn't explicitly aimed it to hit their form and their personal manner of ducking and weaving. Basically, it's a blind shot, and has a lot in common with shooting at an invisible target. Hence, 50% miss chance.

Now say the character in the square is the original target's identical twin. Why should he not get the 50% miss chance? And in that case, why shouldn't the original target? He hasn't changed position, but he hasn't been frozen in place all that time.

(Or has he? Well, what if he has? Blame the 50% miss chance on air currents, or else invoke Rule 0 and remove it. This is going to be a huge spell description if I start accounting for every circumstance I can think of... :smallannoyed:)

So yeah. My preferred idea is that rays require a new attack roll (at the last round's attack bonus but against the AC of whoever's in the target square right now), with a 50% miss chance.

[Callix]

Why bother with Baleful Transposition? Just defer their fireball and slam on a Hold Person from the cleric. Roast sorceror anyone? Deferring more powerful things, like Blade Barrier, Cloudkill, Incendiary Cloud etc are even more lethal.
Ready Deferral. Defer area attack spell. Cast Solid Fog on your next turn. Sit back as he kills himself.

[Icewalker]

Huh! I like it. Very interesting.

Could certainly be used in a huge variety of situations.

I can see a group guarding a doorway, knowing the exact moment the enemy will come through, casting a fireball 1 round in advance and deferring it, then casting another so two go off. Fun!

[Peregrine]

Why bother with Baleful Transposition?

Because if you want to hurt the enemy mage with his own spells, you have to put him in his own 'kill zone'. :smallamused:

Edit:
Okay, I'm thinking of a near-total rewrite of the spell description, just to make everything a little clearer. How's this?

[hr]
This spell causes another spell to be delayed by one round. You use a counterspelling action to cast deferral, although you need not successfully identify a spell in order to defer it. You must succeed on a caster level check against the caster of the spell to be deferred. (The caster can voluntarily fail this check.)

Deferral has two versions, depending on whether the deferred spell is one with a target, or one with an effect or area. When cast against a targeted spell, deferral has the same target as that spell. (If the spell to be deferred can affect multiple targets, the deferral can only defer the spell's effects on one target.) The deferred spell is cast, and is subject to dispelling for the deferred round even if it is normally instantaneous. After the deferral expires, the spell takes its normal effect on the target, even if the target has moved in that time. If the spell allows for a saving throw or spell resistance, they apply after the deferral expires. If the target is no longer a valid subject for the deferred spell (e.g. if a cure spell is deferred and the subject dies in the meantime), the spell fails.

When cast against a spell with an area or effect, the deferral is targeted at the caster. The magic of the deferred spell exists at its normal point of origin (typically in the caster's space), and is subject to an area dispel cast during the deferred round. When the deferral expires, the spell creates its normal effect or affects its normal area, originating from the same point even if the caster has moved. If the spell requires an attack roll (such as a ray), it affects any creature in the space where the spell was aimed before deferral, but suffers a 50% miss chance for shooting blindly (as if aiming at an invisible target). The caster must make the attack roll at the same attack bonus that applied before the spell was deferred, although the target's AC may have changed in the meantime. The caster is denied any insight bonuses to the attack roll that may have applied, such as from true strike.

[hr]
How does that work now?

[Callix]

Fair enough. The old wording made me think that the deferred direball would be centered on the caster. I see my mistake. Now, deferring Time Stop is just a mean way to steal a round for the melee guys out there. Also... deferred Chain Lightning... what happens if you defer the first target?

[Peregrine]

Hmm. I suppose the sensible thing to do is defer the whole effect, then have it strike everyone normally.

And that's supported by the chain lightning description...

...chain lightning strikes one object or creature initially, then arcs to other targets. ... After it strikes, lightning can arc to a number of secondary targets...

So the primary strike is deferred one round, then it strikes, and the secondary strikes follow.

[Jack_Simth]

Now, deferring Time Stop is just a mean way to steal a round for the melee guys out there.That's a good thing. Time Stop is a mean spell.

[Duke of URL]

Can you defer a deferred spell again? I.e., extend the duration of the deferral by another round by casting deferral again before the delayed effect?

Given the time stop example, that could really ruin a wizard's/sorcerer's day:


:xykon: Oh great, browntrousers and company again.
:roy: That's Greenhilt
:xykon: Yeah, whatever, let me get ready... Time Stop
:vaarsuvius: Deferral
:xykon: Huh? Ow! Ow! Ow!
:roy: Take that!
:xykon: Yeah, just wait until...
:vaarsuvius: Deferral
:xykon: Wha? Ow! Hey! Cut that out! In just a second I'm going to...
:vaarsuvius: Deferral
:xykon: How many of those did the elf prepare?

[Peregrine]

Can you defer a deferred spell again? I.e., extend the duration of the deferral by another round by casting deferral again before the delayed effect?

As written, no. Deferral is done like counterspelling, and you can only counterspell a spell as it's being cast. But that would make a really good houserule (so good I may yet make it part of the spell officially). Not overpowered (dispel magic is still better against hostile spells, and it's a great way to burn spell slots), but an awesome way to be annoying. :smallbiggrin:

I'm sure there was something else I was going to say, but I went away from the thread over the weekend and forgot.

Oh! That might have been it. Just observing how, with chain lightning working like that, it means you zap someone, and then they feel the effects one round later, by which time they might have moved to a completely different location -- like an electric time bomb, zapping whoever's around when it finally goes off.

But then, that's the side effect of chain lightning being written as a targeted spell. Same goes for all these sorts of attack spells, where they seem to create some sort of offensive projectile, yet have a target rather than an effect. Like magic missile. Again, deferring magic missile means it 'hits' the target, but they don't feel it for one round (in which time they could put a shield spell up to negate the effect). A good DM would describe the missiles hovering around the target, or something.

[Kan8]

Hmm...The way I see it, is that the spells been cast, but just hangs in the air, as though it's under the effects of a Time Stop. So a deffered Chain Lightning, would be just a small blue orb of energy hanging in front of a caster, and once the round has passed, the orb would discharge, aiming for the same area that it was meant to aim for in the first place, or moving until it reaches it's max range and fizzles out. If that's how you mean it then I'm all for this spell :smallbiggrin:!

If you mean it to be a way that the spell launches out and strikes it's target, but has no other effect other than hitting them, but goes off, and deals any damage and effect, in the next round, then I'm not for it so much...I'd prefer to stop a spell for a while, giving me time to move away from the effects. Also you'd need to specify what would happen to certain spells...Blinding Colour Surge as one example...Either the caster's clothes would glow for a whole round (could be funny), or they'll turn invisible right then and there...

Ah well...Intresting Idea, one I like a lot.

[Peregrine]

Hmm...The way I see it, is that the spells been cast, but just hangs in the air, as though it's under the effects of a Time Stop. So a deffered Chain Lightning, would be just a small blue orb of energy hanging in front of a caster, and once the round has passed, the orb would discharge, aiming for the same area that it was meant to aim for in the first place, or moving until it reaches it's max range and fizzles out. If that's how you mean it then I'm all for this spell :smallbiggrin:!

This is how I see it (and how it goes for any spell with an area or effect)...


If you mean it to be a way that the spell launches out and strikes it's target, but has no other effect other than hitting them, but goes off, and deals any damage and effect, in the next round, then I'm not for it so much...

...but this is how it works, for certain spells (i.e. those that have a target line, but seem more suited flavourwise for an effect). Magic missile and chain lightning are in this category. They have targets, therefore they affect that target even if it moves after the spell is cast at them and deferred.

For many target spells, though, it makes perfect sense -- spells where the effect is wholly intrinsic to the target, rather than something external striking them. Say, a transmutation spell -- enlarge, or polymorph, or something. The spell hits them, but nothing happens... at first.


I'd prefer to stop a spell for a while, giving me time to move away from the effects.

Works exactly this way against area or effect spells. Defer a fireball or cloudkill and you can get out of the way.


Also you'd need to specify what would happen to certain spells...Blinding Colour Surge as one example...Either the caster's clothes would glow for a whole round (could be funny), or they'll turn invisible right then and there...

Never heard of it... Spell Compendium, perhaps?


Ah well...Intresting Idea, one I like a lot.

Thank you. :smallsmile:

[Kan8]

Blinding Colour Surge is in the Players Handbook II. Hang on and I'll find it...

Here we go:


You point at the target of this spell. The colors of your clothing, skin, and hair shine for a brief moment before they surge away from you, forming a multicolored ray that strikes your target. You disappear as the colors of your body and items leap from you into the beam. The target clutches his eyes and staggers

You strip the color from your body and gear, turn it into a lance of energy, and hurl it at a target. When you cast this spell, you target a creature with the colors stripped from your form. The target must make a Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
You also gain the benefit of Invisiblity, for the duration of this spell, even if the target creature succeeds on its save or if it's spell resistance protects it.

There's bound to be many more spells like this, but I guess this is already answered, they'd go invisible, seeing as the spell would hit the target, but not affect the target until the next round, seeing as they've already launched the colour from themselves.

Still, Thanks for clearing it all up.

[Duke of URL]

As written, no. Deferral is done like counterspelling, and you can only counterspell a spell as it's being cast. But that would make a really good houserule (so good I may yet make it part of the spell officially). Not overpowered (dispel magic is still better against hostile spells, and it's a great way to burn spell slots), but an awesome way to be annoying. :smallbiggrin:

I like annoying. :smallbiggrin:

I think I know the answer to this already, but since it's not explicit... a deferred spell is treated as cast, correct, i.e., the caster does not have to maintain concentration on the spell in order for it to eventually take effect? That means the caster can perform a normal action on their next round and still get whatever deferred benefit the spell will provide, right?

Hmmm, that could make for an interesting Deferral, Greater variant: same effects, but the caster must maintain concentration on the spell until it takes effect, or the spell is lost. That would generally mean skipping the next action and succeeding on any Concentration checks occurring in the interim.