Some simple changes to help the Monk and the Frenzied Barbarian

[fishdad]

What do you all think of our groups simple changes to help the Monk and Frenzied Barbarian?

First all we did to the Monk is give them d12 HD. Seems reasonable and not game breaking. The monk begs to get up close and personal but doesn't have the HP to last long.

Second, when the Frenzy is active the Barbarian gets his rage bonus to attack, damage, AC, and all saving throws. The frenzy just doesn't give enough for the price you pay so we gave more.

Simple changes that we have not play tested a whole bunch.

Thanks for the input.

[JNAProductions]

What do you all think of our groups simple changes to help the Monk and Frenzied Barbarian?

First all we did to the Monk is give them d12 HD. Seems reasonable and not game breaking. The monk begs to get up close and personal but doesn't have the HP to last long.

Second, when the Frenzy is active the Barbarian gets his rage bonus to attack, damage, AC, and all saving throws. The frenzy just doesn't give enough for the price you pay so we gave more.

Simple changes that we have not play tested a whole bunch.

Thanks for the input.

Monk doesn't need the bonus. They can Disengage as a bonus action (even if it costs Ki) and have the move speed to hit and run. Monks should not be front-liners. They're skirmishers.

Frenzy bonus seems reasonable, though-it does need a buff. (Though that might be a little strong.)

[Cybren]

Giving anyone but the barbarian a d12 HD is bad just because having a d12 HD is one of the Cool Things about the barbarian. On top of that. Monks don't need the extra HP, because as mentioned they are extremely mobile, which means they shouldn't be getting hit as often as others anyway

[SharkForce]

yeah, i think your frenzy buff is a bit much, and the monk is not supposed to be a tank, they're an agile, mobile striker that gets right up in the back lines and forces the enemy front line to either respond (and thus open up their defensive line) or lose their back line.

[Zman]

Monks are skirmishes and not a front liner. The should not have a d12 hit dice. The problem with the monk is that all their cool things require a bonus action, and when they use their bonus action to disengage for for defense they suffer a huge decrease in power.

The problem with Frenzy is that it causes exhaustion ion and basically is a once per day ability.

In my list of Tweaks I've addressed both of these things. Monk gains Extra Attack(2) at 11th level. Also, make a Stunning Strike a once a turn for 2Ki cost, now the Monk has more competitive damage and is not a one trick pony.

For Frenzy, remove the exhaustion tax and force every attack to be reckless while in a frenzy.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Monk is crazy good already, they don't need any buffing. As others have said, the monk is not a tank and does not require a lot of h.p. They float like a butterfly, sting like a stunning bee. The Mobile feat is helpful to a lot of monks to do this, although I would argue that the Open Hand monk doesn't need mobile at all with the stuff it can do.

[Spacehamster]

Frenzy changes is a bit too strong perhaps and as others noted monk is not a brawny tank so huge bag of hp does not make much sense for him, only thing I would change for a monk is to give him slightly more damage, maybe at level 11 add a 1d4 force damage to all attacks or something. :)

[Specter]

If Monk needs any adjustment, it's around his cold levels (with stuff like Tongues).

If you want to do something for Berserker, just make the Frenzy exhaustion-less from level 10, to make up for that horrible intimidating thing.

[Spacehamster]

If Monk needs any adjustment, it's around his cold levels (with stuff like Tongues).

If you want to do something for Berserker, just make the Frenzy exhaustion-less from level 10, to make up for that horrible intimidating thing.

Or leave it as is but have that bonus attack deal one more weapon die for the duration.

[fishdad]

I guess the idea behind the Monk boost to HD was that Monks are supposed to be the masters of body, mind and spirit so it seems reasonable to have the highest HD. As far as Skirmisher, I understand that they can run in, hit the target, possibly do nasty things to them, then run away. However, they can't do it very well. You have to decide if you want to flurry (uses your bonus action and ki point) and possibly knock them prone OR run away (uses your bonus action and a ki point). SO since you can't run in and run away we thought you are going to have to stay in melee at least one turn. During that one turn you could get stunned or locked down is someway. Anyway that was the reason for the extra HD and it seemed thematically feasible.

The Frenzy we envisioned the barbarian as such an uncontrolled beast of a character that he should be almost unkillable. SO adding the AC, attack, damage, saving throws seemed okay especially since you can only do it once and your pay the price in exhaustion.

On a side note the Elemental Monk is in need of a complete rework. These above two suggestions was just to simply try to make the class (monk) and the subclass (frenzy berserker) a little bit more appealing.

Thanks

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I guess the idea behind the Monk boost to HD was that Monks are supposed to be the masters of body, mind and spirit so it seems reasonable to have the highest HD.

Nah, the monk has never had high hit points in D&D and it never should. The monk is about avoiding that attack with AC, evasion, deflection, etc. rather than being a big meatstick like a fighter or barbarian that gets hit and takes it.


As far as Skirmisher, I understand that they can run in, hit the target, possibly do nasty things to them, then run away. However, they can't do it very well. You have to decide if you want to flurry (uses your bonus action and ki point) and possibly knock them prone OR run away (uses your bonus action and a ki point). SO since you can't run in and run away we thought you are going to have to stay in melee at least one turn.

The monk is far better at this then you are saying. Let's look at the Open Hand Monk, with Open Hand Technique, any time you hit with flurry of blows you can cause your target to have no reactions until the end of your next turn, there is NO SAVE for this. So you can just hit with flurry of blows and get out of there and they can't take an opportunity attack. Since it lasts until the end of your next turn, on your next turn you can go in, do your damage, and leave once again without causing an opportunity attack, you don't even have to spend any ki on that second round to do it. So you can just spend 1 ki every two rounds with flurry of blows to do this if you want to be conservative.

Of course, once you get Stunning Strike, you should be spamming the hell out of that. Once again, no OA to worry about and like your Open Hand Technique, it lasts until the end of your next turn. You can always get the mobile feat if you aren't an Open Hand Monk or just don't want to have to worry about it.

And last but not least, the monk is hardly some squishy wizard with 13 AC. As long as you are pumping up there Dex and Wis they get a very respectable AC and can handle being swung at.

If someone is having problems with monks in combat, they just aren't playing them right, they kick all kinds of ass and can often be the MVP of the party with their Stunning Strikes and their greatness at survival in pretty much any circumstance.

[Vogonjeltz]

What do you all think of our groups simple changes to help the Monk and Frenzied Barbarian?

First all we did to the Monk is give them d12 HD. Seems reasonable and not game breaking. The monk begs to get up close and personal but doesn't have the HP to last long.

Second, when the Frenzy is active the Barbarian gets his rage bonus to attack, damage, AC, and all saving throws. The frenzy just doesn't give enough for the price you pay so we gave more.

Simple changes that we have not play tested a whole bunch.

Thanks for the input.

Regarding the Monk HD size increase, I'd also point out that the Rogue, the Bladesinger, the Druid, Blade pact Warlock, and valor Bard all seem fairly likely to get into melee, but they also have lower than a d10 or d12.

I don't think it's justified to increase the Monks HD, they have alternative features in place of extra hit points, and their basic combat features revolve around mobility and stunning.

Classes with a d10 or d12 die don't tend to have mobility nor do they tend to have control features. From a balance perspective, giving the Monk a larger hit die would require reducing their ability to control the fight to compensate.


Regarding Frenzy, it's the earliest second attack in the game for a two-handed weapon. That alone is extremely powerful. I'd be very cautious about loading even more bonuses on to a single powerful ability that's also available via multiclassing just a few levels.

[Saeviomage]

If Monk needs any adjustment, it's around his cold levels (with stuff like Tongues).

If you want to do something for Berserker, just make the Frenzy exhaustion-less from level 10, to make up for that horrible intimidating thing.

The horrible intimidating thing that can render a foe unable to approach you and give him disadvantage on all attacks and checks for an unlimited period of time with a single save? The one that you can just try to use every time it seems appropriate because it doesn't have a usage limit?

Personally I think if you're going to give the berserker anything, you should make frenzy allow you to ignore exhaustion penalties. Attacking as a bonus action is far better than being able to use a bonus action for an attack when you take the attack action.

[Santra]

We just gave the frenzied barbarians a con save against that level of exhaustion at the end of each rage (DC= 12+ the number of times they have raged that day). At level 20 frenzy barbs receive no levels of exhaustion for entering a frenzy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Instead of giving Monks a huge HD, give them the Swashbuckler's free disengage from anyone they damaged, or perhaps the Eagle Totem's "AoOs against you have Disadvantage"-- that way they can zip in, punch and zip out without needing waste ki and bonus actions (or a feat).

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Regarding Frenzy, IMO it only needs a minor tweak. Give them "recover 1 level of exhaustion after a short rest once per day" and move the extra attack off the bonus action to the regular attack action to allow for feat and multi-class synergy.

[Cybren]

Regarding Frenzy, IMO it only needs a minor tweak. Give them "recover 1 level of exhaustion after a short rest once per day" and move the extra attack off the bonus action to the regular attack action to allow for feat and multi-class synergy.

Not being able to attack as a bonus action unconditionally would be a lateral move in power, not a buff. It would preclude dash+attack, for example, to close with enemies that withdraw to end your rage