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Tengu
2007-07-03, 12:40 PM
As in the thread. Why do psions use intelligence for their powers? Wisdom, being about inner focus and willpower, seems more fitting. I have my own answers to this question, but I'd like to hear others - maybe there's something official?

The White Knight
2007-07-03, 12:41 PM
I think in 3.0, psions of different disciplines actually had different abilities for their manifesting stat. That's pretty cool.

Tengu
2007-07-03, 12:43 PM
They did. It made no sense and I'm glad that, along with other things, they changed it in 3.5. Psions in both 3.0 and older editions weren't really playable.

Morty
2007-07-03, 12:45 PM
Well, technically speaking, arcane magic could also be defined by "inner focus and willpower", which would make it depend on wisdom. So if someone decides to make psionics depending on Wis, he should do the same to arcance magic.
The best way to resolve that issue would be IMO making casters and manifesters dependent on two stats. But that'd require major changes in the system.

The Glyphstone
2007-07-03, 12:49 PM
Like the Favored Soul - who isn't exactly regarded as a powerful caster class.

That might actually be one way to water down casters without too much work, by dividing their bonus spells/spell DC ties into two stats like the FS does...

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-03, 12:53 PM
Willpower is really Charisma, in any case. Inner focus is Wisdom. Anyway, that's the difference between wizards and sorcerers. Where sorcerers do rely entirely on willpower, wizards generally lack the sheer force of personality to do so --or they're too intelligent to waste so much energy on brute force when a lighter touch can suffice (via the construction of mental "levers" and "pulleys").

Lord Iames Osari
2007-07-03, 12:54 PM
Like the Favored Soul - who isn't exactly regarded as a powerful caster class.

That might actually be one way to water down casters without too much work, by dividing their bonus spells/spell DC ties into two stats like the FS does...

I do that already in my homebrew games. Every caster uses Charisma to determine the save DCs of their spells, their bonus spells per day are tied to the normal ability score, and spontaneous casters like bards and sorcerers receive bonus spells known from Intelligence. A caster needs the minimum 10 + spell level in each applicable score to be able to cast spells of a certain level.

Narmoth
2007-07-03, 12:55 PM
In 2nd ed (and I think also in 1st ed) psionics was a wisdom-based ability.
How much power you could use a day was desided partially by the wisdom, inteligence and constitution -scores.

lotofsnow
2007-07-03, 12:56 PM
Well, technically speaking, arcane magic could also be defined by "inner focus and willpower", which would make it depend on wisdom. So if someone decides to make psionics depending on Wis, he should do the same to arcance magic.


Arcane magic could be defined that way, but it really isn't. For Wizards, at least, magic is obtained through years and years of study, which, I think many would agree goes along with intelligence. Greater Intelligence could mean a greater ability to understand the science of magic and, therefore, the ability to wield its power to a stronger degree. It might make sense for Sorcerers to be Wisdom based(controlling the arcane magic flooding their blood by force of will alone), but not Wizards.

The actual blurb about Psions states that their power is due to months or even years of strict mental discipline. That, to me, says "Monk," and, therefore, Wisdom-based.

lukelightning
2007-07-03, 01:04 PM
Wisdom is already too much of a catch-all. Besides, when you look at the real definition of wisdom it doesn't have much to do with mental strength or energy, it is about understanding and decision making, not about enforcing your will upon the universe.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-03, 01:05 PM
Arcane magic could be defined that way, but it really isn't. For Wizards, at least, magic is obtained through years and years of study, which, I think many would agree goes along with intelligence. Greater Intelligence could mean a greater ability to understand the science of magic and, therefore, the ability to wield its power to a stronger degree. It might make sense for Sorcerers to be Wisdom based(controlling the arcane magic flooding their blood by force of will alone), but not Wizards.


Yes, but "sheer force of will" is charisma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha).

Wizards trick reality into doing what they want. Sorcerers force reality to do what they want.

EDIT- I'll quote the SRD, because it needs to be quoted: "While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings."

Morty
2007-07-03, 01:08 PM
Arcane magic could be defined that way, but it really isn't. For Wizards, at least, magic is obtained through years and years of study, which, I think many would agree goes along with intelligence. Greater Intelligence could mean a greater ability to understand the science of magic and, therefore, the ability to wield its power to a stronger degree. It might make sense for Sorcerers to be Wisdom based(controlling the arcane magic flooding their blood by force of will alone), but not Wizards.


I don't quite think it makes sense that one can learn arcane magic just by research. Sure, research is needed, but it should take a lot of strong will to reshape the universe by spells.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-03, 01:10 PM
To misquote Jerthanis: "A wizard studies for years over tomes of ancient magic, straining his eyes to see in candle light, tricking his mind into working in set patterns which will catch the magic of the spells, finding the secret tricks by which the universe can be made to undo itself and redo itself differently, and then memorizing these tricks again and again until they stick."

Ichneumon
2007-07-03, 01:11 PM
Wizards trick reality into doing what they want. Sorcerers force reality to do what they want.


I just need to quote that. It sounds so good.

Tengu
2007-07-03, 01:15 PM
I have the impression that in DND, everyone can learn magic from books - it's just very time consuming difficult, therefore only the high-intelligence types succeed. That's how wizards and other intelligence-based casters learn magic.

But you cannot learn psionics from a book. They also do not base on cunning, nor tricking the universe into doing what you want it to - they come from within.

Oh, thanks for the ideas about houserules, but I don't need them - I don't even play DND. I'm interested in hearing why psion's powers are intelligence-based.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-07-03, 01:22 PM
Wisdom is how aware you are, mostly.
Charisma is how forceful you are, mostly.
Intelligence is how good you are at thinking, mostly.

Psions, essentially, get to be incredibly good at thinking, so much that the universe reacts to them. Or something like that.

lukelightning
2007-07-03, 01:23 PM
I have the impression that in DND, everyone can learn magic from books

Similarly everyone in the real world could become a medical doctor if they study hard enough.


Wisdom is how aware you are, mostly.
Charisma is how forceful you are, mostly.
Intelligence is how good you are at thinking, mostly.

How about "Charisma is mental Strength, Wisdom is mental Constitution, and Intelligence is mental Dexterity"?

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-03, 01:32 PM
How about "Charisma is mental Strength, Wisdom is mental Constitution, and Intelligence is mental Dexterity"?

Exactly! a

The_Werebear
2007-07-03, 01:38 PM
I always saw Psionics as intelligence based because they unlock bits and pieces of their psyche. For a Psion to use their powers, they must essentially use mental building blocks to construct an effect bit by bit. It is logical, not intuitive or forced.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-07-03, 01:45 PM
How about "Charisma is mental Strength, Wisdom is mental Constitution, and Intelligence is mental Dexterity"?

That's about it. Under that sort of view, psionics might be the supernatural, mental equivalent of the Open Lock type skills. You push your mind through the right thought patterns at the right speed, and have the right amount of thinking ability, and the universe responds.

Tengu
2007-07-03, 01:45 PM
How about "Charisma is mental Strength, Wisdom is mental Constitution, and Intelligence is mental Dexterity"?

No. Intelligence is mental Strength (raw brainpower, raw muscle power), Charisma is mental Dexterity (the ability to manipulate).

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-03, 01:51 PM
No. Intelligence is mental Strength (raw brainpower, raw muscle power), Charisma is mental Dexterity (the ability to manipulate). Huh? Charisma represents "actual strength of personality," or how much force you can exert on your surroundings. Intelligence focuses more on how skilled you are at wrapping your mind around things, twisting your mind so that it will fit into new ideas.


That's about it. Under that sort of view, psionics might be the supernatural, mental equivalent of the Open Lock type skills. You push your mind through the right thought patterns at the right speed, and have the right amount of thinking ability, and the universe responds.
I'll note that wizards work essentially the same way. The difference is that wizards look at the universe, where psions look at their own minds.

Rasilak
2007-07-03, 01:58 PM
Well, actually Intelligence is far more important for manipulation than Charisma is. Charisma is the direct way to solve social/mental problems (like Strength is for physical ones) whereas Intelligence is about finding workarounds or tricking people in doing what you want (much like DEX is for physical stuff).
Also Intelligence helps in getting your Charisma to work in the right place (like you need DEX for applying your Strength the right way).
EDIT: Damn, you were faster....

Alleine
2007-07-03, 02:09 PM
I think intelligence makes sense, psions are, IMO, finding different pathways through their mind to unlock potential. And also, it says their powers are pretty much ingrained in the brain. That is neither wisdom nor charisma. It takes int and years of practice, or deep meditation, to remember how to make the universe sit down and shut up.

I've always looked at charisma oddly, because I can understand how an illusionist might need it, the people have to believe it, and charisma deals with people. But how would it take charisma to send a fireball or energy missile ripping through someone?

I can see how wisdom makes sense, but then I'd want to split it between int and wis. That'd make even more sense to me.

Fizban
2007-07-03, 02:24 PM
I do that already in my homebrew games. Every caster uses Charisma to determine the save DCs of their spells, their bonus spells per day are tied to the normal ability score, and spontaneous casters like bards and sorcerers receive bonus spells known from Intelligence. A caster needs the minimum 10 + spell level in each applicable score to be able to cast spells of a certain level.

Yes, you've said this before, but I don't understand what you meant by "each applicable score". Your intent seems to be that clerics need wis and cha, wizards need int and cha, and sorcerers need int and cha, and these guidelines work for that. But what about if there was, say, a wisdom based spontaneous caster. By these guidelines they now need wisdom for bonus spells, intelligence for bonus spells known, and charisma for save DC's, meaning they have three applicable scores, and probably won't cast high level spells ever.


As for the OP, I think it's been well covered by now, so I'm done.

stainboy
2007-07-03, 04:20 PM
I like that it's based on intelligence. Intelligence is the closest thing in the game to raw mental horsepower, and we have enough wisdom-based casters already.

I'll admit the blurb in the beginning of the class description implies psions should be wisdom based, but I'd rather ignore a block of flavor text than change a sound rule.

Starsinger
2007-07-03, 05:20 PM
I really think Charisma is a better fit for Psionics than intelligence. Charisma is inner strength and the ability to make people do what you want. Like Dexterity is your ability to be nimble and fire a bow and hide. Or how Wisdom is your ability to see the world around you, and will saves (although I think they should be Charisma too.) And really when I think of psionics I think of people with inner strength, not necessarily smart people.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-07-03, 05:27 PM
I the answer to this "because all the 'mental' stats are essentially arbitrary and meaningless anyway"?

Rama_Lei
2007-07-03, 05:31 PM
It's quite simple why INT instead of CHA.

People move objects using their unbridled mental abilities.

People don't move objects using unbridled sex appeal.

Orzel
2007-07-03, 05:38 PM
The one that doesn't make sense is Psy Warriors. Wisdom is a defensive attribute like Constitution. CON is only offensive or outward when your body produces something and spits it out (breath weapons, poisons, etc)

Wisdom is your characters ability to take in info like images, vocal clues, messages for gods, or your own conscience. Divine caster use Wisdom to get closer to their divine source and understand them better. So PsyWars use Wisdom to attuned their mind with their mind??

Psychic Warrior- Alright Brain, you don't like me, and I don't like you. But lets just do this, and I can get back to killing you with beer.


Magic:

Intelligence- Studying ridiculously hard content on reality warping via magic
Wisdom- Attuned one's mind to a power magical source
Charisma- Shouting at the world and making it do what in you say

Psionics:

Intelligence- Studying ridiculously hard content on reality warping via psionics
Wisdom- Attuned one's mind to itself
Charisma- Thinking at the world and making it do what in you thought

Dan_Hemmens
2007-07-03, 05:39 PM
It's quite simple why INT instead of CHA.

People move objects using their unbridled mental abilities.

People don't move objects using unbridled sex appeal.

Maybe *you* don't...

Orzel
2007-07-03, 05:44 PM
It's quite simple why INT instead of CHA.

People move objects using their unbridled mental abilities.

People don't move objects using unbridled sex appeal.


The only reason I move at ALL is because of the unbridled sex appeal of other people.

SpiderBrigade
2007-07-03, 06:14 PM
Magic:

Intelligence- Studying ridiculously hard content on reality warping via magic
Wisdom- Attuned one's mind to a power magical source
Charisma- Shouting at the world and making it do what in you say

Psionics:

Intelligence- Studying ridiculously hard content on reality warping via psionics
Wisdom- Attuned one's mind to itself
Charisma- Thinking at the world and making it do what in you thoughtI know you meant that as a ridiculous example, but I think it actually works quite well.

The psion is learning and studying, memorizing mental techniques and exercises that allow him to do crazy stuff. Like a mentat, he has to hold a complex system of rules and data in his mind all at once. His discipline is based on logic and reason, which is why he has to be very smart indeed to understand the higher-level powers.

Meanwhile the psychic warrior is attuning his conscious mind (the part that wants to, say, turn his hands into claws) with his deep unconscious/his id/choose your own psychobabble. He's learning to clear his mind of the blocks and inhibitions that would stop his innate reality-warping power from manifesting itself. By achieving the right meditative state, he can unlock his true potential - but he'll have to be very wise indeed.

The charismatic manifester (wilder? I think?) knows that he has the power do do as he pleases. If he can focus hard enough on what he wants to happen, the sheer force of his will can change the world. He learns to channel his passion into abilities some consider to be...unnatural. His charismatic intensity can accomplish great things, but he'll need a lot of it to manifest more challenging abilities.

So yeah, simply put - psions are mentats, psychic warriors are...I donno, Scientologists? And wilders are Sith. Hooray!

Fax Celestis
2007-07-03, 06:47 PM
Maybe *you* don't...

...I don't quite qualify The Dread Pirate as an object, though it does move mostly based on Cha influence. :smallwink: