Help me build Wizard City!

[Scathain]

New(ish) campaign world here, and I'm in need of advice. My players delved into my Waterdeep-esque coastal hub, my volcanic island military state, and my Northrend-looking Soviet Russia-feeling city states. Next up is Shale, City of Witches and Wizards.

And while I'm confident in my ability to BS my way through it, and I've gotten a feel for what the party is looking to do MAIN quest wise, the leash is off so I want to be as prepared as possible.

To help y'all get a feel before I ask questions, the city has quite a lot going on in it:
-A semi-district for each school of magic
-At least one bardic college
-Warlock and church embassies (separate because "only losers ask for power, real mages take it")
-Artifice Quarter near the front end of the city. This is where all the magic shops and merchants (and basically all over-the-table business) will be, as it's the only place accessible to non-magical normies.
-Tower of High Sorcery smack dab in the middle, where the archmages convene under the leadership of the shadowy Raven Queen

My questions are broad, but here goes:
1) what do you think of what I've outlined so far? Anything else you'd expect/want to see in a city that practically bleeds magic? Notable locations and people, however broad or specific, would be greatly appreciated.
2) I'm struggling to come up with side quests. In a city where the answer to any problem is "magic", it's hard for me to adapt mundane city adventures. If you have any plot hooks or even general story ideas, please chime in!

As always, thanks in advance.

[Keltest]

Off the cuff? Everything that's normally mundane is magic. Streetlights are common and lit by magic. Public services are performed by apprentices with scrolls or wands. Traffic is directed by illusionists or somebody with a magical gewgaw that basically emulates street lights. The more posh areas would perhaps lack sidewalks and paths, since everybody can cast some form of fly and/or afford an item to do it for them.

As far as quests go, wizards are always experimenting or making stuff, right? perhaps you could send them on a fetch quest for such and such monster piece for a rare potion, the raw components for a magic item, or to hunt down an experiment that would embarrass the wizard if word got out that it was his. Apprentices also go missing and steal things, rivals need intimidating and friends need protecting... In short, Wizards are lazy and love having random passerby do stuff they cant be bothered to do.

The city would also be policed by battlemages of some sort, whether they be actual wizards or somebody faking it with a lot of magical items.

[RickAllison]

I would imagine so much of this city would have been created using Wall of Stone. The way I would show this is by creating structures that are architecturally sound, but nigh-impossible to create by traditional construction. Stores that rest on spindly legs, skyscrapers, and oddly balanced structures. I imagine many parts of the city looking like a combination of New York City skyscrapers, the unique buildings of Dubai, and the favelas of Brazil. Tightly packed, buildings piled on top of one another with irregular pathways, and towering structures. It is a place that is easy to become lost in, even for natives.

[Gildedragon]

Rather than divide the city into districts by school of magic, it is perhaps handy to think of each School (and subschool maybe) as a separate guild or company that controls certain goods and services.

because a couple of the key infrastructure spells (all [healing] and the create water and create food spells) are Divine; divine casters are perhaps not as... ostracized; also consider a) gods of magic and b) mystic theurges.
it is however, plausible, sorcerer types are deemed second class citizens, or barbarians (in the non PC-class way) because of their undisciplined approach to magic.

(on that note: bardic college is probably Prestige Bard as opposed to base class Bard)

Spellcasters may be ranked by their strongest spell available (moving the 0-indexing to be a 1 indexing system)

Changing the schools to guilds one would expect most casters (from adepts and magewrights, to wizards and archmages) to be focused specialists; with separate specialties for city-defense mages, magic item creators, and construct builders

Example:

The Most Venerable Order of Necromancers
> Has the highest number of theurges in its ranks: Wizard Archivists (especially if one (rightfully) returns [healing] spells to necromancy*)
> Has an extensive "library" ie a collection of skulls (for Speak with Dead) and Ghost and Undead serving as reservoirs of knowledge
> Is the most traditional of the guilds, as the average membership lasts... FOREVER
> Has several Dread Necromancers, they help turn valuable members into Necropolitans
> Jobwise they lease out unintelligent undead for menial jobs (waste disposal, city defense, farmwork, servants, mechanical work); Alongside Diviners and Abjurers they are a significant portion of the Law management of the city (mostly forensics and wills); alongside Diviners they manage the Knowledge trade
> They have a Martial Branch focused on the containment of dangerous undead, and the creation of undead military reserves, as well as defenses that will sap the energy from their enemies.

The most obvious buildings comissioned by the guild are the mausoleums, hospitals*, and archives; but also churches, and various monuments to past heroes, as well as granaries (gentle repose to keep the food fresh), and a few ornamental and botanical parks (pleasantly cool in the heat of summer). Necromancy is (potentially) the discipline that coaxes life back from Death.
The guild's palaces tend towards black and white materials and circular motifs; they remind the passerby "You WILL die" but also "Death is not the end".

*The fight over which Guild manages those spells would be a good political campaign seed
----

The Guild of Psionicists is a new guild; some consider it an offshoot of the Company of Enchanters, but they are proving to be different enough. It is possible they may break up into several discipline guilds, or be absorbed by the stronger, established, institutions... only time will tell

----

The Veiled Order of the Immanent Illusion
This is the subguild of Illusionists specialising in [shadow] spells and their particular power to replicate other schools. Deemed heretical (and transgresive of inter-guild non-competition), the VOII has been driven underground. Their members, still Illusionists, practice their enhanced pseudoreality in secret, and have secret meetings.
Their sigil is a slightly distorted version of the Conjurers or Evokers' symbol.

[Âmesang]

First thought that came to mind is an idea that I ripped off from Final Fantasy XII: those giant, blue, healing crystal thingies; granted, that'd be more of an epic cleric's creation as opposed to high-level/epic wizards, but one can't deny it's magical. :smalltongue:

HEALING CRYSTAL
Aura overwhelming conjuration; CL 25th; Slot —; Price 500,000 gp; Weight 8,000 lb.
DESCRIPTIONAnchored in place yet floating gently in mid-air, this uncut sapphire is as tall as an adult elf and appears to glow with a soothing light. When placing your hand upon it it bestows the effects of a 10th-level mass heal spell on one or more creatures of your choosing, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTSCraft Wondrous Item, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Heighten Spell, Improved Heighten Spell, mass heal; Cost 250,000 gp, 15,000 XP, 500 days

— DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide, p.282
— Epic Level Handbook, p.124

[Scathain]

Loving the ideas already! Gonna add something quick, I'm definitely rethinking the roles of clerics after what's been posted. Obviously the more dogmatic churches will still be confined and watched with suspicion, but magic deity clerics will have free reign. Thanks again!

[Temperjoke]

You might want to research Armethalieh, the City of a Thousand Bells, from The Obsidian Trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory. It's a city ruled by mages, although they don't use the D&D schools of magic. Some of the concepts in it are: weather is strictly controlled and scheduled (rain only at certain times on certain days), all the warehouses are warded and protected against vermin, protective wards to protect the city from harm, most city utilities are managed via magic.

The city could also be designed and constructed in a large spell form, with streets marking the lines in a giant spell circle. Think extravagance and excess as well. These magic-users have power, they're going to flaunt it. Towers that look like they defy physics to stand, levels of the city that float in the air. Magical public transportation, like portals, carriages and trains that run on magic. Magical entertainments, such as magic-made fireworks displays and music. A power supply is another thing to consider, something maintaining the spells that give the citizens their lifestyle. Another common trope is the idea of magic-users being in a higher social class compared to non-magic-users.

[hifidelity2]

Why use mere mundanes?

You could have the magic is traceable – why would say a mage learn how to break into a house when its both warded and he has to use magic – which can be tracked. The PC’s however do it “The old fashioned way” and there is no magic to track

Also if Mage A can summon X then mage B can dispel it – however the party can walk in and take it

You could therefore have any normal plots but its just that magic / counter magic ancel each other out so it have to be done by mundane’s with ACTUAL skills

[Quertus]

How long has this city been around? What natural resources do they have to work with? What kind of obstacles / opponents have they had to face? And what system is this in? :smallconfused: I'm guessing D&D 3.x.

With your stated "only losers ask for power, real mages take it" attitude, I was going to suggest refluffing ur-priest / making this the one place in the world where ur-priests can expect a warm welcome. It looks like you've gone a different route.

The Arcane Spellcaster class can provide all the city's healing / resurrection / food needs. I'm sure that there are other arcane classes that could fill in, as well.

I'm a little concerned about how the "no mundane" policies will work. What happens when a mage falls for a mundane? How long do children have to show magical talent before they are kicked out? Do you need special licensing to transport mundane creatures for experimentation? Can wizards have mundane pets? Etc etc.

I expect that there will be some differences in laws, crime, and punishment. Are fines payable in blood and body parts? Are more serious mundane criminals imprisoned, mind raped into useful members of society, or used for experiments? How much legal responsibility does one have for the results of one's experiments? If "a lot", do most mages / guilds own large areas outside of town for testing? I feel an adventure seed coming on... :smallwink:

How recognized are divergent schools (elemental mages, wild mages, chronomancers, fate spinners, etc)?

As I mentioned in another thread, anyone who isn't using divisions to know what the party is going to purchase, and have it ready even before they ask for it, has gone out of business long ago. Feel free to have my signature wizard be the owner of the current magic item monopoly. :smallwink:

How well received are djinn, dragons, and other magical creatures? How common are undead, golems, and simulacrum?

I'd expect such a city to develop many, many custom spells and items useful to running a city, but not necessarily optimized for adventurers. I'd also expect them to have created many custom... good undead... Deathless?... as well. Also, with a healthy necropolitan population, I'd personally expect AoE +NI turn resistance to be a thing.

Law enforcement could make heavy use of divination, making the Batman Wizard a reality.

Oh, word of warning: golems enslave elemental spirits. Unless slavery is the norm in this city, someone might realize this, and care. I feel an adventure seed coming on... :smallwink:

[DavidSh]

Assuming the city has been around for a while, one might find a few ruined remnants of towers that are uninhabitable and unsalvageable due to residual magic effects. "See that stub of a tower with a faint octarine glow? It used to belong to the Plergb school, until the events of eighty years ago."

[Keltest]

Assuming the city has been around for a while, one might find a few ruined remnants of towers that are uninhabitable and unsalvageable due to residual magic effects. "See that stub of a tower with a faint octarine glow? It used to belong to the Plergb school, until the events of eighty years ago."

"That scorch mark over there is why healing spells aren't in the necromancy school anymore."

[Gildedragon]

Probably lots of rules and ordinances to prevent people from slipping into other planes because of weakened planar boundaries
Likewise architecture might take advantage of that and streets wind I'm such ways that you need to take six rights before returning to origin

[sktarq]

First - how do they eat and drink. Most of the food/water spells are divine and even if there are many magic food making items those who control them are still going to have to distribute it. Those people will especially sell to the non spellcasters of the place.

Building with magic is fun-walls of stone and stone shapes can make things much faster but that will also lead to things like star artistic builders who have access to great reputations and money. Similar magical stars for things like illusion entertainment and the like. Because magic allows the power of entire teams to come from a single person those who best at it (not necessarily the most powerful but usually linked) it will drive a star system. One of the interesting star system would be teachers. . . those who train new wizards have what reason to do so in a place where competition is already brutal? Outside money perhaps? I'd recommend looking at both some of the Islamic school competition for this as well as European warring guilds. Especially the University of Sankore and Timbuktu in general.

It needs lots of expert craftsmen and suppliers for odd ingredients. The people won't necessarily be magic users but they prepare the expensive "oils and lotions" that eat up so much GP in the item creation process. . . and why are they expensive? because they require a lot of work-from either bringing them from far away or extensive processing by skilled workers. So an expert stone sculptor to make a golem for example. Plus the glass blowers for the vials.

Magic is a resource hungry industry. Just think about the scribe work in copy houses needed to drive the book industry in such a place. . . And control of the parchment industry could well be more profitable than most magical industries.

Replacement of unskilled labour. . . An Unseen servant can basically replace most servants and commoner jobs. An animated object can easily cut wood or stone as an infinite power source. And spells like fabricate can even match many skilled jobs. But even with all that the normals will outnumber the wizards for a very simple reason. All the work and time needed to make a magic item is damn expensive in time and effort and life energy for something that you may well not use very often and trusting another wizard could well be idiocy of the first order. . . the mundane is simply less of a threat.

Use of magic to drive non magical outcomes. Wall of flame based saltworks, ceramic kilns, etc. Better farming via weather prediction and control. These will again need lots of mundanes to operate but will provide good cashflows for the backing wizards.

friendships and social interaction will be haunted by the idea of charm and even glibness spells. There will be good reason to not trust your neighbors. And if someone is dominated to commit a crime who is responsible?

With so many magic users competition will drive prices down. So be ready for that.

Try either guilds or social clubs not based on magical school but on philosophy. Two groups of necromancers who believes in very different guidelines to using the undead are more interesting than a single one that you know is behind every spectre's appearance. And a collection of people who think that wizards should use the city to be puppetmasters of the world could well draw from a half dozen schools of magicians but be constantly challenged by those who see magic as the path to evolve the human/demihuman races into divine beings of will who are both foiled by those who see magic as the key to freedom as it can make you individually independent of the world.

Permanent magic draws on XP which is life energy. A wand seller is literally selling little bits of his soul in those sticks. There will need to be lots of XP generated for all the permanent magic you mention. . . Where are they getting it? How this happens could well be a real key in how the magic of the place feels. A sacrificial rite to extract XP from people that can be used to create items/effects will be different than a special plant that is grown whose magic acorns are worth 25 xp apiece and which only grow in the valley around the city.

______________________________________________

the real question is why does it even exist? Why does it make sense to have all the wizards together in this one city when their customers are scattered far and wide? How much to they gain from a shared resource pool than they loose to the competition? I could see a lot of outsiders visiting for crafters and supplies on the cheap but that is the support city rather than the mages themselves. Also Mages don't really need each other on a day to day basis. Sure socializing with those who understand is nice and trading spells in key but once the new spell is learned you don't need the other one ever again . . . so why stick around? Why be the fiftieth best chefwizard in the district and rely on your betters throwing regular parties when you could go off into the world and basically become a full fledged power in your own right?

so why does this city have so much magic?

Magic based in a war skirmish game can really run into trouble when scaled that are relevant to economic life or social structure

[Jormengand]

Everything mundane should not only be replaced with magic, but with magic that does the same job better. Roads are replaced with teleportation circles. Bookshelves are replaced with magical computers that interact telepathically with the user and give them information before they're even consciously aware that they need it. There are no beds because everyone is always fully rested due to magic items that make it the case. Rather than guard towers or anything, there's a nigh-indestructible laser tower of death, and anti-intruder measures all over the rooms. Wizards can make money at the drop of a hat, so there are no expenses spared. Each of the different sections for different schools is probably on its own demiplane, linked to by a permanent gate. Prisons contain anti-magic fields, obviously, and are made of permanent prismatic walls because they can exist there. Energy Transformation Fields of Wish with Immovable Rods in them with the button stuck down are also there, firing off whatever spell the wizards need at frightening speed.

The main reason not to leave this place is that to do so would be to give up luxury, or spend work avoiding doing so. Wizards may find it easier to bribe adventuring parties to sort out their problems than actually go and do it themselves.

[sktarq]

Everything mundane should not only be replaced with magic, but with magic that does the same job better. Roads are replaced with teleportation circles. ....The main reason not to leave this place is that to do so would be to give up luxury, or spend work avoiding doing so. Wizards may find it easier to bribe adventuring parties to sort out their problems than actually go and do it themselves.

LOL! I hate to ask because that makes no sense....why would anyone spill their souls to make those things? In order to do every one of those little improvements over the mundane requires a wizard to give up the potential of more power permanently (in that it slows the advancement to the next caster level). The very acccesabliltiy of magic for others makes a wizards own less effective. So much harder to ward something when everyone has ways of finding the cracks. What you describe needs so much money, time, and XP that could be spent on other things that the wizard city would be quickly overtaken by rivals. That one telepathic/animated book costs the same as an entire library and the question of which one provides more to a society is clearly the library. DnD magic sounds nice but it is not the solution to everything. And bribing adventuring parties requires gold. . . and those wizards won't have much when they have separated themselves from their customer base.

[Jormengand]

LOL! I hate to ask because that makes no sense....why would anyone spill their souls to make those things? In order to do every one of those little improvements over the mundane requires a wizard to give up the potential of more power permanently (in that it slows the advancement to the next caster level). The very acccesabliltiy of magic for others makes a wizards own less effective. So much harder to ward something when everyone has ways of finding the cracks. What you describe needs so much money, time, and XP that could be spent on other things that the wizard city would be quickly overtaken by rivals. That one telepathic/animated book costs the same as an entire library and the question of which one provides more to a society is clearly the library. DnD magic sounds nice but it is not the solution to everything.

A single casting of Energy Transformation Field will set you back 250 XP, which is a trivial amount and if you care about it, you can use one of about three different ways to bypass it, or get a friend to gate in some creature so you can murder it for experience. It also costs 5000 GP, boo hoo. Key the ETF to miracle. Grab an immovable rod and walk into the field. Repeatedly click the rod as a move action. Fire off two miracles every 9 rounds. Use them to emulate spells like wall of iron and fabricate. Alternatively, steal a truenamer from somewhere, polymorph him into a garbler, and make him fire off an infinite-level utterance into the field and then suddenly infinite miracles as a standard (or even swift) action, yay, go make a city.

Or, cast wish once, get a ring of three wishes out of it, and keep doing that and get infinite wishes.

Or, you know, any of the other ways to get infinite wishes, which are then used to emulate low-level spells or provide scrolls of high-level ones. We won't judge you too much.

Tippy, of course, prefers the automatically-resetting wish trap, which is also a thing you can do.

Also, in general, polymorphing into creatures with racial SLAs is a thing you can do.

D&D magic sounds nice, and it's a solution to problems you never even knew you had.

[IntelectPaladin]

As usual, all I've read is the title,
and this time all I've got is a gist of the opening message.
Mostly because I've been seeing too much negativity as of late.
With that in mind, on I go! Just a warning, I'm making one thing of a list!
With a magical city, it would only make sense for it to have magical amenities,
such as self-cleaning, auto-cleaning towels, horseless carriage services and tours,
Sentient inn's (With privacy, I might add) who pretty much work as expected.
Restaurants that simply admits you, and uses divination to see what you WOULD have ordered,
public parks with, not streetlamps,
but miniature portals into a realm of light, held in a small floating orb 17 feet in the air.
I can't stop typing! My imagination is on full-throttle!
Robe shops where the robes sell themselves!
Magic weapon shops with over 20 layers of security.
(I'll leave what wares that deserve that sort of security up to you.)

General stores that sell invisible paint,
metal sticks that become the tool you need when you need it,
and Rations that are suspended in time until opened!

And plot hooks? Please! Something hard!
Maybe a citizen needs help after accidentally opening a portal to another dimension,
when he was just trying to get a portal to work.
The trap? He's actually trying to get away from his high-ranking archmage wife after an affair.
A Magi-guard is shouting out for help stopping an ethereal thief,
who's running out of a store with a (Insert amazing magical creation here) under his/her/it's arm.
The trap? The fact that the moral thief was mind-swapped with the less-than-just guard.
Even a mystical metal creature,
Looking like a crystal kunai facing up walking on four other crystal kunai facing down,
Knocking on the hero's residence and asking for a moment of their time.
The trap? It need's help saving it's race from an alternate-timeline version of them.
I could go on and on! Let me know if you need more, I'm seriously enjoying this!

I havn't had this much fun making a list in quite some time.
If this get's lost to the bottom of the page, unreplied to, I'm going to cry.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!
P.S. Please check for hidden messages, I put them in every post.
Also, since others have the wrong idea about the word magic, I'll say this.
Even xykon is against soul-selling. It's a fact of life for that to be just wrong. Just say no.

[sktarq]

A single casting of Energy Transformation Field will set you back 250 XP, which is a trivial amount and if you care about it, you can use one of about three different ways to bypass it, or get a friend to gate in some creature so you can murder it for experience. It also costs 5000 GP, boo hoo. Key the ETF to miracle. Grab an immovable rod and walk into the field. Repeatedly click the rod as a move action. Fire off two miracles every 9 rounds. Use them to emulate spells like wall of iron and fabricate. Alternatively, steal a truenamer from somewhere, polymorph him into a garbler, and make him fire off an infinite-level utterance into the field and then suddenly infinite miracles as a standard (or even swift) action, yay, go make a city.

Or, cast wish once, get a ring of three wishes out of it, and keep doing that and get infinite wishes.

Or, you know, any of the other ways to get infinite wishes, which are then used to emulate low-level spells or provide scrolls of high-level ones. We won't judge you too much.

Tippy, of course, prefers the automatically-resetting wish trap, which is also a thing you can do.

Also, in general, polymorphing into creatures with racial SLAs is a thing you can do.

D&D magic sounds nice, and it's a solution to problems you never even knew you had.

Balderdash! The 250 XP and 5K gp won't be coming in since this town is competing with itself to much and its customers are mostly elsewhere. (and teleporting there and back has its own costs monetarily, and esp politically and still will be competing with those using the same teleport infrastructure). Also since your wizards are bribing people they have no way to earn the XP and gp. . . And any game that allows a city to be built by Tippy will deserved to be wiped out as soon as the next wizard, now the villain, in line uses it too and upsets the whole world. Because ay system that uses those rule exploits can just as easily be used to destroy the city as build it....or build twelve of them and drain the city (or now cities) of customers export markets etc . So those are out unless you want define the entire world as various of these type of cities squaring off (which would be a valid option and most named after its founding archmage) the various "infinite wish trick" doesn't work. And/or scatter a bunch of buckets of water around for people to drown themselves in to reset their hp to 0. Also competing wizards will have no reason to build the "city enhancing" things you are talking about since each XP and GP expended would make them weaker than their neighbors/competitors. If the whole place is portal ridden then it causes as many problems as it solves (it brings risks as much as access) and who benefits are those who can't build a portal while those who could are now weaker relatively and are thus incentivized NOT to build it in the first place.



DnD magic doesn't scale. It was built for small groups in a dungeon away in a fight-translating it into a day-to-day society breaks the world pretty much instantly unless you make mages low powered and rare enough to not change the world on a grand scale. Unless you want to go play planescape-at which point I can't help you.

DnD magic can't solve all problems, especially at societal levels. . . I've broken a lot of societies to prove that (I've had to agree not to in order to play a wizard from a couple DM's)

[Quertus]

Ok, let's start with the obvious: this city will produce the most effective adventuring parties. Reason: they have the best magic item shops, and the population consists almost exclusively of tier 1 classes. So, um, yeah, they win at adventuring.

Possessing a slew of superlative adventurers, defense is not a problem. In fact, the only question will likely be, why haven't they taken over the world yet?

With all the cash that their successful adventurers bring into town, let alone their ability to Fabricate mundane goods of superlative quality (there are plenty of spells to boost their craft checks to insane levels, and that's before custom spells, custom items, etc), economics is not one of the town's worries.

Between xp components, sacrifices, and numerous other techniques to avoid spending xp when creating magic items, leveling will not be an issue. In fact, there is even the added bonus of getting to choose to remain at some comfortable level if you really want to.

Similar to my comment about necropolitan --> AoE turn resistance boosters throughout the city, I imagine that Protection from Evil would be a city-wide AoE, if things like charm and domination ever became an issue.

[twas_Brillig]

You have an excellent excuse to have the police force include robogolemcop.

Actually, you could probably go full cyberpunk on this if you wanted to. The genre's all about fantastic resources, distributed asymmetrically. Who falls between the cracks in Shale? What kinds of people live in the city, but don't fit in, and aren't served by the same resources as the alchemists and the archmages -- why do they stay?

[sktarq]

Possessing a slew of superlative adventurers, defense is not a problem. In fact, the only question will likely be, why haven't they taken over the world yet?

With all the cash that their successful adventurers bring into town, let alone their ability to Fabricate mundane goods of superlative quality (there are plenty of spells to boost their craft checks to insane levels, and that's before custom spells, custom items, etc), economics is not one of the town's worries.

That assumes a very large adventuring demand, they may be able to dominate the field but adventuring isn't a big industry on a world wide scale. There are only so many dungeons to clear out.

Unless the OP wants it to be and turns the whole place into the centre of mercenary war and spy wizard hiring centre making it very militarized. Forget rags of cleaning and more warforged, sword +2 by the case. Make them jealous of any potential threats to prevent other major congregations of wizards.


Really the OP needs to figure out what the town should be like and then manipulate the world to make that possible/probable.

[Temperjoke]

A reason for existing could just be that the founders wanted the freedom to work magic. I'd like to cite the origins of the city-state of Dalaran, used in the Warcraft series. Magic-users were chafing under some of the restrictions on their spell usage (with good reason in that game setting), so it sparked an exodus of the mages to form their own city-state, built by and for magic. While not every resident is a mage, almost all of the upperclass residents are. So while there needs to be a reason, it's not difficult to imagine why magic-users would want a city of their own. For that matter, maybe the magic-users had a tower of study, or a exceptionally powerful one took up residence in a location, and a town sprung to life around the residence, as people looked to him/her for protection in exchange for providing food, materials, and labor. Then apprentices drifted in, and the city grew, and so on and so on as decades expanded into centuries, until you have a grand metropolis of magic.

[Jormengand]

Balderdash! The 250 XP and 5K gp won't be coming in

Your entire argument seems to hinge on this idea that the average high-level wizard doesn't have 250 XP and 5000 GP just lying about. Worse case, wall of iron, fabricate, greater teleport, sell the stuff, greater teleport, fireball a few random creatures, greater teleport home, and you're done. Or greater teleport, fireball some random stuff, wish for a ring of three wishes, wish for the material component of ETF, and you're done. High-level wizards, by default, have access to all the gold and XP they need, and once they have infinite wishes, they can get access to any items - including ones that waive XP costs - freely.

Also, yes, there will be competitors... except that a city of high-level wizards are going to win against anything that tries to kill them, compete with them economically, or do anything else whatsoever to them.

[sktarq]

No. My argument rests on thee idea that the mages would have have to spend the 250 XP on such a regular basis to keep the economy running as to be a problem. And for lower level mages it would be even more of an issue as it would stunt their ability to reach the higher levels.

Thus why magic boosted mundane trades would be at an advantage. A single permanent wall of fire covers the cost of fuel for any fire based trade forever. And in trades like salt, pottery, smelting, bathouses etc fuel is the main cost.

And your "fireball a few random creatures" wouldn't last long. CR rules would trip you up and strip them of time. It would work fine for A wizard but not for the thousands in a city as is being discussed.

[Quertus]

That assumes a very large adventuring demand, they may be able to dominate the field but adventuring isn't a big industry on a world wide scale. There are only so many dungeons to clear out.

Unless the OP wants it to be and turns the whole place into the centre of mercenary war and spy wizard hiring centre making it very militarized. Forget rags of cleaning and more warforged, sword +2 by the case. Make them jealous of any potential threats to prevent other major congregations of wizards.


Really the OP needs to figure out what the town should be like and then manipulate the world to make that possible/probable.

Well, either there is a need for adventurers, or monsters are extinct. Either way, I call it a win for wizard city. :smallcool:


Balderdash! The 250 XP and 5K gp won't be coming in since this town is competing with itself to much and its customers are mostly elsewhere. (and teleporting there and back has its own costs monetarily, and esp politically and still will be competing with those using the same teleport infrastructure). Also since your wizards are bribing people they have no way to earn the XP and gp. . . And any game that allows a city to be built by Tippy will deserved to be wiped out as soon as the next wizard, now the villain, in line uses it too and upsets the whole world.


Also, yes, there will be competitors... except that a city of high-level wizards are going to win against anything that tries to kill them, compete with them economically, or do anything else whatsoever to them.

*Ahem* I thought we had established that Quertus' Precognative Magical Item Creation Monopoly TM had removed the competition. :smallwink:

I leave it to others to discuss the relative merits of exports, and to the OP to determine how close to a RAW realistic Tippyverse he wants his game to be.

[Jormengand]

No. My argument rests on thee idea that the mages would have have to spend the 250 XP on such a regular basis to keep the economy running as to be a problem. And for lower level mages it would be even more of an issue as it would stunt their ability to reach the higher levels.

Duration. Permanent.

[IntelectPaladin]

Oh, I forgot to mention.
What would happen if you added a high-price messaging service?
My earlier post! My poor earlier post! Lost in the ether of that argument!
As in, someone would take a letter, and could get it literally anywhere.
The business behind the letters appearing out of thin air,
such as a letter you had received from your future self, perhaps.
I hope this one doesn't get lost in the ether, either.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would have a look at the mythals of the Forgotten Realms, detailed in Lost Empires of Faerûn. They are city-wide epic spells with a variety of useful powers, such as limiting the use of certain kinds of magic, or providing free access to spells to people with the right token.

[redwizard007]

Feeling a need to weigh in on the WHY wizards might create a ton of magic items for common use... prestige. It would be like sponsoring the games in Rome. Pure bragging rights. Not a huge motivation for every wizard, but think of all those egos striving for recognition. Signature flourishes in spell effects, plaques, ribbon cutting ceremonies... it's a game of popularity, especially if there is a democratic system where popularity is rewarded.

Pure Tippy BS has never flown in any campaign I've ever heard of outside the internet, so I'd generally disregard the wishing for a ring of wishes, spamming high level spells through obscure rules, or permanent spell effects with negated XP costs. That being said, I recognize that they are RAW, just not relevant to the discussion.

[Jormengand]

On the flipside, you're the DM, so none of this stuff has to follow the rules anyway.

[Quertus]

On the flipside, you're the DM, so none of this stuff has to follow the rules anyway.

Well, true, but...


The DM represents over 99.99% of the world, the players less than 0.01% of the world.

When that 99.99%+ of the world is unrealistic, well, that's just no fun. Feeling like the only one in the world bound to the rules of reality does not generally a fun game make.

So, if you're allowing your players to invent homebrew and break the rules, cool. If not, you can run the risk of alienating your players, making it feel like they're the only ones bound by the rules.

Of course, I go so far as to give my dragons WBL as though they were PCs, to make it feel like we're all playing the same game, so YMMV.

[redwizard007]

...Of course, I go so far as to give my dragons WBL as though they were PCs, to make it feel like we're all playing the same game, so YMMV.

That, sir, is both fantastic and terrifying!

[Beneath]

What happens when it all goes wrong?

One of the canonical things for a high-level wizard to do is experimenting, with magic item creation, new and never-before-seen spells, and so on. There aren't any rules for those experiments, but if you get enough mages together they're likely to have some things going wrong. This might leave odd lingering magical effects in places. Streets where time seems to run backwards, or doors that change your size, lampposts that change the color of anything that touches them, accidental portals, the occasional group of people who seem to have a hive mind (from a permanent accidental mutual charm effect) and so on, and the town should just grow around them.

There'll probably also be a lot of called and bound creatures doing everyday tasks (fire elementals heating boilers, earth elementals building things, for instance), and the city might have things built into its architecture assuming some of them will get loose sometimes.

What I'd go for is make it amazing, yes; continual flame streetlights, books that fly from the shelves when their names are called, but also make it be perched on a knife's edge. Undo the right ward and the marvels that make the city what it is all come crashing down on it.

I also want to second what people said about there possibly being ur-priests, with that ethos, and also about archivists. Specifically, if you want the ur-priest concept but with working mechanics, archivists are where it's at.

If you go with districts or guilds based on the eight schools of magic in D&D, I'd be really worried about what to do with Enchantment unless you want a place where everyone is charmed by someone else.

[goto124]

If you go with districts or guilds based on the eight schools of magic in D&D, I'd be really worried about what to do with Enchantment unless you want a place where everyone is charmed by someone else.

Wouldn't that sort of place also have a lot of anti-charm protection spells?

The Enchantment wizards there have a bunch of charmed slaves followers, probably.

[Quertus]

The Enchantment wizards there have a bunch of charmed slaves followers, probably.

Do they? I thought only wizards were allowed within town limits, outside the merchant district Quertus' district.

[Bohandas]

2) I'm struggling to come up with side quests. In a city where the answer to any problem is "magic", it's hard for me to adapt mundane city adventures. If you have any plot hooks or even general story ideas, please chime in!


Does it have to be in the city? Somebody needs to go out prospecting for crystals and stuff and other cliched reagents.

[Bohandas]

You'd also be well advised to find a copy of the old Netheril sourcebook

Edit:
Also the Sharn (City of Towers) sourcebook

[Beneath]

For adventures, any intrigue is possible as long as it fits with all parties' established means of supernaturally gathering information and manipulating others.

What's the governance structure in this city? Who actually manages day-to-day governance and how are they chosen? What counterweights to their power exist? Who is accountable to whom for how they use political power? What cultural norms exist that constrain power?

Also problems that simply haven't been solved yet, or solutions breaking. Remember that the solution that gets used isn't necessarily the best; just the first one to be applied, especially if replacing it with something better means ripping it out.

[Quertus]

How dead set are you on the whole "mages only in town limits"? Because it sounds like that limits you to adventure seeds set in the merchant district, outside town, illegal activities, and solo quests.

Unless the whole party is mages & bards, of course. :smallwink:

So, in your shoes, I'd just focus on the look and feel of the town, and whatever is in the merchant district / involved in their "primary quest".

Oh, with the whole "power you can take for yourself" mindset, a) I'm guessing they are psion friendly; b) another possible source of inspiration could be... Um... Who has the "steel price"? Greyjoys? Iron islands? Anyway, my understanding is that there is some group already developed who have a "only what you take is worthwhile" mindset that you could look at for inspiration.

[Bohandas]

How dead set are you on the whole "mages only in town limits"? |

I don't recall that actually being said

[Southern Cross]

-Artifice Quarter near the front end of the city. This is where all the magic shops and merchants (and basically all over-the-table business) will be, as it's the only place accessible to non-magical normies..
Also if it's the city of Wizards and Witches, shouldn't it also have actual witches? (Unless you're taking the Harry Potter route, in which witches are just female wizards).
I have the following suggestions:
The city is mostly inside an interplanar intersection, which is why only powerful spellcasters can enter the city proper.This has had the following effects on magic inside the city:
1) Characters can get up to level 25 due to the preponderance of magic.
2) Enchanting costs no XP inside the city limits.
3) Classes that don't exist outside the city are common in the city i.e. a city-dweller might tell some adventurers that "The best potions and alchemical items are found in the Witch's Cauldron. However it can be quite dangerous to anger a witch- and NEVER harm a witch's familiar. And if a witch starts cackling-RUN!"

[Misereor]

"Tottering on the edge" is a nice idea for a campaign.
You could make a scenario where; Yes, the city is mighty because of it's magic, but said magic is also why it is inevitably going to fall.

For instance, there is a surge in wildlife attacks, as monsters become bigger and stronger and develop new and unexplainable abilities. (The abundance of magic is mutating the local creature- and plant life.) Controlling summoned creatures is becoming more difficult, as they are strengthened by the magic soaked atmoshere (or "Background Count" in Shadowrun terms). Simple potions sometimes have side effects, some beneficial, some not. Wild surges sometime occur when casting the more dificult spells (always making the spell more powerful, never less). Aunt Edna's basement suddenly has a portal to the Nine Hells for a (rather hectic) afternoon, before it inexplicably closes again. Mentally unstable Druids are murdering prominent citizens (i.e. spellcasters) to "restore the balance".

Don't make it obvious to the players, but as the city's magic becomes stronger, so do the side effects, and it will eventually cause a cataclysm. But the city mages don't know this, so their response to every narrowly averted crisis is to push the boundaries of magic even further. They are treating the symptoms, not the cause of the problems, and all the divination spells in the world will not help unless you ask the right questions. The player characters are sent on one mission after another to eliminate threats and recover artifacts that will help the city, but unless they figure out what the problem really is, disaster is inevitable.

[RickAllison]

"Tottering on the edge" is a nice idea for a campaign.
You could make a scenario where; Yes, the city is mighty because of it's magic, but said magic is also why it is inevitably going to fall.

For instance, there is a surge in wildlife attacks, as monsters become bigger and stronger and develop new and unexplainable abilities. (The abundance of magic is mutating the local creature- and plant life.) Controlling summoned creatures is becoming more difficult, as they are strengthened by the magic soaked atmoshere (or "Background Count" in Shadowrun terms). Simple potions sometimes have side effects, some beneficial, some not. Wild surges sometime occur when casting the more dificult spells (always making the spell more powerful, never less). Aunt Edna's basement suddenly has a portal to the Nine Hells for a (rather hectic) afternoon, before it inexplicably closes again. Mentally unstable Druids are murdering prominent citizens (i.e. spellcasters) to "restore the balance".

Don't make it obvious to the players, but as the city's magic becomes stronger, so do the side effects, and it will eventually cause a cataclysm. But the city mages don't know this, so their response to every narrowly averted crisis is to push the boundaries of magic even further. They are treating the symptoms, not the cause of the problems, and all the divination spells in the world will not help unless you ask the right questions. The player characters are sent on one mission after another to eliminate threats and recover artifacts that will help the city, but unless they figure out what the problem really is, disaster is inevitable.

And then they inevitably reach the point where they, like AVALANCHE from FFVII, have to become terrorists in the eyes of the city to ensure lives are saved!

[Bohandas]

This thread about magical furniture (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485471-Buying-Furniture) may be helpful.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485471-Buying-Furniture

[IntelectPaladin]

Alright, time for round three.
My posts..my beautiful posts! Lost to the either! Unnoticed!
Perhaps it would be best to not overthink this.
While it IS a wizard city, there are far more than just wizards in the world.
Could that remind change any of it's aspects?
Like if it's king wizard went VERY dark, causing the other cities to react.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!
Also, I'm obligated to let you all know that I leave hidden messages in every post.
Such as the message that I try to make every large post a 10-min work of art.

[Bohandas]

LOL! I hate to ask because that makes no sense....why would anyone spill their souls to make those things?

In Pathfinder there isn't an xp cost to make magic items

[Bohandas]

I could see them using scrolls or spellbook pages as currency. They have intrinsic value and the wizards would have the requisite skill training to spot a fake.