Half Orc, Assassin Question.

[SMac8988]

I have a player who is considering running a half orc rogue assassin. He is a big fan of half orc and wants to try a new class.

My question is, at level 3 with assassinate: if he is using a short sword, 1d6, and gets the surprise attack. Would he then do 7d6 damage? 1d6 for the shortsword, 2d6 for the sneak attack, doubled dice for the crit, and +1d6 for half orc savage attack?

That seems like a lot of damage at a low level. And if he picks up a bow and sharp shooter at level 4, it scales even more. Just curious I know it's a very particular situation but seems really cool and not something I thought of before.

[Tanarii]

Keep in mind that getting surprise can be fairly hard in a standard mixed party. You either need the enemy to fail its passive perception check against every single member or your party, or to be sufficiently far away from the group to qualify to be treated as a separate groups.

In the latter case, you're probably trading your automatic crit for some number of rounds before the rest of your party can join the fray. Which can potentially be dangerous, especially if you don't initiate attack with their foreknowledge. Easier to do if you scout well and set things up properly in advance. Of course, splitting the group to scout is usually the more dangerous part of the whole plan in the first place. :smallwink:

(Edit: clarified its enemies "passive" perception check against all of your groups individual Stealth checks.)

[Corran]

Yes, you have the damage right. They may seem like much, but that is what assassins do, try to surprise targets and deal some serious damage with their surprise attacks. Dont worry about it, unless he tries to muchkin his way around it (though that always comes at a cost ime), you will be able to handle it just fine. Just make sure to have your squishy BBEG (like wizards) have some minions, or at least contingencies (alarm spells, etc). Surprising targets is not an easy task, especially for someone who hopes to do it in melee. And you still need to win initiaive to land an automatic crit on your surprise. As I said, assassinting is a difficult ''job''. And about sharpshooter, I wouldnt worry too much. Risking all that damage (especially on surprise round) for just 10 more damage, has its problems. And if you take sharpshooter, that means you are not bumping dex or taking feats such as alert, lucky, perhaps even crossbow expert. But yeah, as a DM, your only real worry should probably be to think in advance how to handle encounters when the BBEG is low on the hp side, just in case the assassin manages to pull off his surprise (or dont, and let them trivialise the encounter every now and then, to let the assassin shine from time ti time).

[Arkhios]

People really should use the group stealth optional rule from DMG. Everyone rolls for stealth at same time, and if at least half of the group (rounded up, if you are in semi-standard group of five) succeeds, everyone succeed. It helps especially mixed groups with both stealthy and clumsy members because while a plate wearing warrior fails almost definitely, the more nimble members are more likely to succeed, and often the groups include at least 2 characters who have a reasonably high dexterity score.

[Tanarii]

People really should use the group stealth optional rule from DMG. Everyone rolls for stealth at same time, and if at least half of the group (rounded up, if you are in semi-standard group of five) succeeds, everyone succeed. It helps especially mixed groups with both stealthy and clumsy members because while a plate wearing warrior fails almost definitely, the more nimble members are more likely to succeed, and often the groups include at least 2 characters who have a reasonably high dexterity score.
Why should they do that? The surprise rules are clear that it isn't supposed to be done using the group check rules, and is supposed to be determined against each individual opponent. (Which are in the PHB by the way, not the DMG.) That make perfect sense too ... how is a more agile character supposed to stop a HA wearing heavy-footed person from clanking and making noise? Say "shhhh" a lot?

[Easy_Lee]

Why should they do that? The surprise rules are clear that it isn't supposed to be done using the group check rules, and is supposed to be determined against each individual opponent. (Which are in the PHB by the way, not the DMG.) That make perfect sense too ... how is a more agile character supposed to stop a HA wearing heavy-footed person from clanking and making noise? Say "shhhh" a lot?

Better question: how are the players supposed to ever get surprise at all if all 4+ of them have to beat a decent number? That's like 3 times disadvantage: roll 4d20 and take lowest. Screw that.

If I was in a game with a DM who pulled this crap, and I was an assassin, I'd cheese it. First bag of holding I got, I'd convince the rest of the party to hide inside and let me carry them around. When combat begins, open that thing up and, "say hello to my little friends."

Eirher that, or I'd just take a bow build with sulker and go off on my own all the time. Neither would be good for the DM. But he didn't leave me much choice, now did he?

[Malifice]

My question is, at level 3 with assassinate: if he is using a short sword, 1d6, and gets the surprise attack. Would he then do 7d6 damage? 1d6 for the shortsword, 2d6 for the sneak attack, doubled dice for the crit, and +1d6 for half orc savage attack?

Yep.

Read the rules for surprise carefully though. To get it off he needs to:

1) Approach an enemy completely by surprise. If the enemy notices just a single PC or hostile threat before the combat begins (before any attack rolls are made), he aint surprised. This means he's going to have to either have some very stealthy companions, or be scouting ahead of the party and relying on a high stealth score to keep him alive and undected.

2) Win initiative on round 1. Assasinate triggers on the first round of combat, and only when the enemy is surprised. After the enemies first turn (which it cant do anything, but takes its turn anyway) it's no longer surprised and vulnerable to assasinate.

So assuming your Orc is alone and sneaking around, lets image he bumps an Ogre with a passive perception of 10. (You as the DM are also free to rule the Ogre is alert and using active perception and make an opposed Perception roll vs your Orc PCs Stealth if you want).

Assuming the PC is undetected, he can then declare an attack on the Ogre. At this point initiative is rolled.

From there, if the PC wins the initiative check, he can attempt to assasinate the Ogre (and still needs to land the attack itself, although he gets advantage on this attack roll due to surprise + assasin class feature). If OTOH the Ogre wins the initiative check, then the Ogre goes before the Assasin on turn 1 (although he cant act or move on his turn). The Ogres turn then ends, and now the Ogre is immune to Assasinate (and no longer surprised).

The Assasin can still sneak attack the Ogre with advantage when his turn comes up (he's hidden still) but its not an automatic crit anymore.

[Malifice]

If I was in a game with a DM who pulled this crap, and I was an assassin, I'd cheese it. First bag of holding I got, I'd convince the rest of the party to hide inside and let me carry them around. When combat begins, open that thing up and, "say hello to my little friends."

...who are all dead from asphyxiation.

"Breathing creatures inside the bag can survive up to a number of minutes equal to 10 divided by the number of creatures (minimum 1 minute), after which time they begin to suffocate."

Its an action to pull out a companion also.

[ZeltArruin]

So assuming your Orc is alone and sneaking around, lets image he bumps an Ogre with a passive perception of 10. (You as the DM are also free to rule the Ogre is alert and using active perception and make an opposed Perception roll vs your Orc PCs Stealth if you want).

Assuming the PC is undetected, he can then declare an attack on the Ogre. At this point initiative is rolled.

From there, if the PC wins the initiative check, he can attempt to assasinate the Ogre (and still needs to land the attack itself, although he gets advantage on this attack roll due to surprise + assasin class feature). If OTOH the Ogre wins the initiative check, then the Ogre goes before the Assasin on turn 1 (although he cant act or move on his turn). The Ogres turn then ends, and now the Ogre is immune to Assasinate (and no longer surprised).

The Assasin can still sneak attack the Ogre with advantage when his turn comes up (he's hidden still) but its not an automatic crit anymore.

I disagree that the ogre isn't surprised if he rolls higher on initiative in the surprise round, mostly because combat hasn't even begun until the attack is attempted, the Ogre is otherwise unaware that he is in combat. More over, I would say that the Ogre doesn't even get to roll initiative, and it isn't even needed by the PC, because all that's going to happen is the assassination attempt. The ogres first round of combat would be after the surprise round, where if he goes after the assassin, the assassin would still have advantage against the ogre.

[Easy_Lee]

...who are all dead from asphyxiation.

"Breathing creatures inside the bag can survive up to a number of minutes equal to 10 divided by the number of creatures (minimum 1 minute), after which time they begin to suffocate."

Its an action to pull out a companion also.

Open the bag to refresh the air every minute or so. Honestly, if you were trying to counter my strategy, then you're going to have to try a hell of a lot harder than that.

Not that I understand why you're trying to counter it in the first place. I'm just playing by the rules you laid down. Did I outsmart you? I'm so sorry.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This is why I really like Telepathic Bond. Given that a reasonable GM won't call for stealth/perception outside of a combat-sprint distance (outside of niche circumstances, like someone being a fool of a Took), most of the party can stay roughly outside of perception range while still coordinating with the stealthy point man. At that point if the point man did his job, the first round is that the point man gets his surprise attack, while the rest of the party uses their surprise to dash over to the combat. Another point for Mobile as well, I suppose.

[Tanarii]

Better question: how are the players supposed to ever get surprise at all if all 4+ of them have to beat a decent number? That's like 3 times disadvantage: roll 4d20 and take lowest. Screw that.By splitting the party with high stealth characters sufficiently ahead of the main group that they're treated as separate parties. The PHB explicitly states that as a tactic to avoid the problem. Can't remember if it points out the downside of splitting the party though.

Or you can cast Pass without Trace. As has been pointed out to me in another thread, it's fairly effective at boosting up the chances of passing stealth checks, even for those with Dex 8 in HA.


If I was in a game with a DM who pulled this crap, and I was an assassin, I'd cheese it. First bag of holding I got, I'd convince the rest of the party to hide inside and let me carry them around. When combat begins, open that thing up and, "say hello to my little friends."

Eirher that, or I'd just take a bow build with sulker and go off on my own all the time. Neither would be good for the DM. But he didn't leave me much choice, now did he?It's not cheese. It's the rules. And it certainly makes sense to me. If you want to scout ahead quietly and silently, you scout ahead. Which can be a little dangerous, if you're not very good at it. So yeah, your second plan is exactly what you're intended to do, if you want to be stealthy in a non-stealthy party. The trade-off is added danger of defeat in detail.

[Mafilux]

For the OP: I have a half orc rogue in my group. Any time he lands a critical strike, savage attacks does apply.

[Malifice]

I disagree that the ogre isn't surprised if he rolls higher on initiative in the surprise round, mostly because combat hasn't even begun until the attack is attempted, the Ogre is otherwise unaware that he is in combat.

You can disagree all you like, buts thats the RAW and the RAI.

When the DM determines the switch from narrative time to combat time takes place (as soon as a hostile action is declared normally) he calls for an initiative check from all combatants.

If you're unaware of all enemy combatants at this point in time, you're susprised you dont get to act on turn one, meaning your opponents get a whole round (maybe even two if they beat your initiative check) to beat you down.

Example:

Grog the Assasin prowls down a shadowy dungeon corridoor alone. His Stealth roll is a total of 17. With his darkvision he notices a Knight (weapon out and alert, but currently looking the other way) guarding the coridoor. He approaches the Knight in an attempt to assasinate it.

The DM decides the Knight is alert for trouble and rolls a Perception check against Grogs Stealth check result. He flubs the roll, getting a total of 5. Grog succesfully sneaks behind the Knight and declares he's going to plunge a shortwword into the Knights back.

The DM decides that as hostilities have been declared, narrative time is over, and the combat sequence begins. Initiative is now rolled. Grog gets a 12. The Knight rolls.... a 15!

The Knight goes first. He's surprised so cant take any actions or move on his turn. The DM narrates this as: 'At the last second, just as your blade is about to plunge into his back, he shrugs his shoulders (probably thinking that he was hearing things) and begins to turn around, just in time to foil your assasinate attempt.'

Its now Grogs turn. Grog resolves his attack (with advantage thanks to being hidden) dealing sneak attack damage if he hits (thanks to advantage). However the Knight is no longer suprised, so he declares he will use his Parry ability as a reaction. He does so, but Grog hits anyways. Grog then uses his bonus action to dash away from the Knight (who cant use his reaction for an opportunity attack as he already used it for Parry) and moves 30' back down the passageway. He then uses his movement to move another 30' (hightailing it away from the angry Knight and back to the party). After resolving his turn, round two begins.

See how it works? This is RAW and RAI for both Surprise and Assasinate, and the ability is balanced around the above limiters (A Stealth check to close to your enemy, and then win an opposed Dex check via initiative to act quicker than your opponent can react).


More over, I would say that the Ogre doesn't even get to roll initiative, and it isn't even needed by the PC, because all that's going to happen is the assassination attempt.

Cool. I'd explain that you were doing it wrong both by RAW, and by RAI, and explain why you were wrong. If you insisted, I'd wish you well and leave your game.

I'm not going to sit there and cop a full round of attacks 'outside of combat'. Then have initiative rolled. Then cop another full round of attacks 'beacuse I was surprised when combat began'. Then another full round thanks to rolling poorly on initiative.

[ZeltArruin]

You said it yourself, the knight was surprised, he gets assassinated regardless of his initiative, he gets no reaction because he is still surprised regardless of initiative. Just because his 'turn' went by doesn't mean he somehow becomes un-surprised. This ability barely gets to be used as it is, I don't see why you want to penalize it further. Honestly, if you pulled this on my character, I'd just stealth away because meta knowledge lets me the player know the attempt would fail, and it would be a waste of time.

Also in the game I'm currently in we roll initiative every round, so that is why we tend not to roll for things that are surprised/don't get to act in the surprise round. So that may explain my comment about not bothering to roll for the guard/ogre/victim in the surprise round and why you clearly would.

This does make me consider that I/assassins should stop getting advantage the round after surprise, but not in normal combat when I go first.

[Xetheral]

In a situation where one side is entirely surprised, I too won't roll initiative until after the first attack, since that's the first warning that combat has begun. The attacker doesn't need to roll, effectively being placed at the top of the order, but has already acted in the first round. (With a sufficient way to unnoticably coordinate, I may allow multiple attackers to benefit from this rule.) However, I'm well aware that this is a house rule.


Given that a reasonable GM won't call for stealth/perception outside of a combat-sprint distance (outside of niche circumstances, like someone being a fool of a Took),

Can you elaborate on what you mean, please? Are you saying that foes should have a max detection range of 60'?

[Malifice]

You said it yourself, the knight was surprised, he gets assassinated regardless of his initiative, he gets no reaction because he is still surprised regardless of initiative.

No he doesnt. Pick up your PHB and read the combat chapter.

The Knight was surprised. He cant take any actions or move on his first turn in the combat. After his first turn ends, he can take reactions as normal.

Example:

A buch of PCs are walking along a forest trail. Among them is a Sorcerer with the Counterspell spell, a Monk, and a Wizard with Shield and Counterspell. Hidden to the side of the trail are a bunch of 3 Hobgoblins with Bows and a Mage. Its been a long day for the adventurers and they are not being particularly alert (passive perception only).

The DM rolls Stealth for the Hobgoblins and the Mage and scores a 15, beating all PCs passive perceptions scores barring the Monk.

He tells the Monks player he notices a glint in the bushes and hears a whisper in Goblin. The twang of bowstrings fills the air.

The DM now calls for initiative. The Sorcerer and the Wizard are surprised.

The Hobgoblins and Mage roll a 15. The Wizard rolls a 10. The Monk rolls a 5. The Sorcerer rolls a 16.

The Sorcerer goes first on 16, but is surprised. He cant act on his turn, and cant move. Standing there like a grinning idiot, his turn ends.

The Hobgoblins and the Mage go next on 15. The DM resolves the Goblins first. Arrows scream towards the PCs. The Monk isnt surprised, and the hobgoblins are not hidden from him, so the attack against him does not have advantage. He uses his reaction to deflect the arrow with his deflect arrows ability.

The attack against the Wizard is made with advantage (the Goblins are hidden). The Wizard has shield prepared, but cant use it because he's still surprised, and hasnt had a turn yet so he cant take reactions. He gets clobbered.

The arrow aganst the Sorcerer is also made at advantage (thanks to the goblins being hidden). Despite no longer being surprised, he doesnt have any applicable reactions (he doesnt know Shield) to use, so he gets shot.

Now the DM has the Mage take his turn. He moves 30' into the open and monologues a bit. Then he casts Lightning bolt at the PCs. The Sorcerer grins. He managed (just) to be able to react fast enough (via his opposed Dex check made at the start of the round called 'initiative') to act in time. As he has already has had his first turn (doing nothing as he was surprised), he is no longer surprised, and can take reactions normally. He shuts down the lightning bolt with counterspell as a reaction.

Next, its the Wizards turn. He's surprised so cant act or move. His turn ends, however as soon as his turn of doing nothing and standing around ends, he can finally take reactions.

Finally, the Monk gets a turn. He's not surprised so he races over to a Hobgoblin and punches it in the face.

After this, round 1 ends and round 2 begins.

Finally at the start of round 2, on initiative count 16, the Sorcerer gets a turn.


Just because his 'turn' went by doesn't mean he somehow becomes un-surprised.

Yes, it does. You're only surprised for the first turn of a combat, and only until your first turn ends.

Thats RAW, and RAI. You can play it differently if you want to, but the OP doesnt play in your group man, and had a question about how the rules work.


This ability barely gets to be used as it is, I don't see why you want to penalize it further. Honestly, if you pulled this on my character, I'd just stealth away because meta knowledge lets me the player know the attempt would fail, and it would be a waste of time.

Then stealth away. Im just applying the rules man.


Also in the game I'm currently in we roll initiative every round, so that is why we tend not to roll for things that are surprised/don't get to act in the surprise round. So that may explain my comment about not bothering to roll for the guard/ogre/victim in the surprise round and why you clearly would.

Great. You play according to houserules. Im only explaining the RAW and the RAI, not discussing your groups houserules.

[ZeltArruin]

Example:

"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends."

In regards to reactions/surprise/et al. *Shrug* Guess so. I was reading 'that turn ends' as 'that round ends', I guess, as that made more sense to me.

[Joe the Rat]

Damage is right. A whole d6 higher than any Assassin does. Getting the drop is their entire gig.


Open the bag to refresh the air every minute or so. Honestly, if you were trying to counter my strategy, then you're going to have to try a hell of a lot harder than that.

Not that I understand why you're trying to counter it in the first place. I'm just playing by the rules you laid down. Did I outsmart you? I'm so sorry.
Other options include snorkels and Air Genasi.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Can you elaborate on what you mean, please? Are you saying that foes should have a max detection range of 60'?I was thinking more like 120' more or less. Round 1 they get within 60'. I was thinking dungeon environments - you might have to be further apart in a more open area, but then again you just have to be in longbow/long spell range in that case.

[Xetheral]

I was thinking more like 120' more or less. Round 1 they get within 60'. I was thinking dungeon environments - you might have to be further apart in a more open area, but then again you just have to be in longbow/long spell range in that case.

Ahh, dungeons make more sense. Thanks for clarifying.

[Sir cryosin]

Hold up I thought (afb right now) that a surprised creature doesn't get to act and the surprise round. So what's this about winning the initiative in the surprise around to get the assassinate perk off. Because if you have to win initiative and a surprise around just to get this feature pulled off. It's making a already extremely hard feature even more hard to do even if you have a high initiative. Having to roll Initiative for a surprise around just totally negate everything that a surprise round gives you especially if you roll lower than the creature that is supposedly surprise.

[Tanarii]

There is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e. Combat starts on the first round as usual. All creatures roll initiative as usual.

So a surprised creature gets their initiative position as usual. Since they are surprised, they can't take any actions on (or before, ie reactions) their turn. But they stop being surprised after their turn ends, and can take actions (ie reactions).

So you need to beat their initiative to take an action on your turn while they are still surprised.

Edit: two examples. Surprised opponent rolls a 15, non surprise opponent rolls a 10. In the first the unsurprised assassin rolls a 18, in the second a 12. We count down init.

Combat A first round of combat:
18 - Assassin turn, gets crit & advantage on surprised opponent, or advantage on unsurprised opponent
15 - surprised opponent turn, no action, but no long surprised
10 - unsurprised opponent turn

Combat B first round of combat:
15 - surprised opponent turn, no action, but no long surprised
12 - Assassin turn, gets advantage on either unsurprised opponent
10 - unsurprised opponent turn

[Malifice]

Hold up I thought (afb right now) that a surprised creature doesn't get to act and the surprise round. So what's this about winning the initiative in the surprise around to get the assassinate perk off. Because if you have to win initiative and a surprise around just to get this feature pulled off. It's making a already extremely hard feature even more hard to do even if you have a high initiative. Having to roll Initiative for a surprise around just totally negate everything that a surprise round gives you especially if you roll lower than the creature that is supposedly surprise.

There is no such thing as a surprise round in 5E.

Some creatures might start the combat suprised during round 1. The assassin needs to be fast enough to strike them before they cease being surprised.

[Sir cryosin]

Wow I'm going to read my book again. And that makes the assassin archtype even more hard to pull off.

[Tanarii]

Alertness and maxed Dex are an Assassin's Friends, +10 to Init.

Maybe Bard 2 for Jack of All Trades, +1 - +3 to Init. Hell, you could go all out and take Barbarian 7 for Feral Instinct, advantage on Init checks. :smallbiggrin:

[Socratov]

even worse, there is no such thing as the surprised conditionin dnd 5e. While what resolves the surpsied status of someone is documented, what causes it has never been described. How a target gets to be surprised is not documented in the slightest.

Personally I'd reintroduce the concept of flat footed back from 3.5:

Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

and then modify it to:


Flat-FootedSurprised
A character who has not yet acted during a combat and did not get the chance to reasonably expect immediate hostility is flat-footedhas the Surprised condition. When under the effects of the surprised condition can't take actions, bonus actions, move or take reaction. At the end of their first turn a surprised combatant loses the surprised condition and can move, take actions, bonus actions and reactions as normal.

Example: A does not percieve (i.e. passive perception A < stealth B) B sneaking up to him. B initiates combat, A is surprised.

Example 2: A and B are negociating. Negocations turn to arguments and a full blown row. B initiates combat, A is not surprised.

Example 3: A and B are talking to each other in a friendly and seemingly normal manner. A has no reason to expect hostile actions (if in doubt: roll deception B vs. insight A or passive insight A). B still initiates combat, A is surprised. bold are my additions, struck through are parts that I erased from the definition, italic is clarification through examples.

or, in flowchart notation:

[start]---<has combat been initiated?>--->no--->back to start
white text to create indentation|->---yes---<did the initiator of combat give away reasonable clues before initiating combat?> --->yes--->target not surprised, continue as normal
white text to create indentationwhite text to create indentation|->---no--->target gains the surprised condition.

If unclear please specify how I can make it clearer.

[Tanarii]

even worse, there is no such thing as the surprised conditionin dnd 5e. While what resolves the surpsied status of someone is documented, what causes it has never been described. How a target gets to be surprised is not documented in the slightest.Huh? It's all laid out in the PHB / Basic Document at the very beginning of the Combat Chapter.


The Order of Combat
Surprise
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

Note it tells you exactly how you get to be surprised / what causes it: you fail a passive Wisdom (Perception) check against all creatures on the opposing side that are trying to be stealthy.
It tells you exactly what the effect is and when it ends: you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.

[Joe the Rat]

Surprise as a function of personal awareness, not of time.
Alert means never having to say you're Surprised.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Wow I'm going to read my book again. And that makes the assassin archtype even more hard to pull off.It largely depends on three things:
1. Party access to Pass Without Trace (far more likely for less stealthy people to get a good roll - also note this is why the bonus is so high).
2. The GM's opinion of when you actually have to start rolling for stealth in a particular situation (if he's relatively lenient, then see my post above).
3. How good your initiative is (Alert is basically a must-have).

[Socratov]

Huh? It's all laid out in the PHB / Basic Document at the very beginning of the Combat Chapter.



Note it tells you exactly how you get to be surprised / what causes it: you fail a passive Wisdom (Perception) check against all creatures on the opposing side that are trying to be stealthy.
It tells you exactly what the effect is and when it ends: you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.

In my opinion, if you are going to make a classfeature about exploiting a certain status, I'd better hope it to be better documented. Because, technically, if someone of the party is visible (yes, even as a decoy) the target can't be surprised. Which pretty much negates the centrepiece of the Assassin subclass. And the part you quoted gives exactly 1 way to cause the surprised condition. Which is why I proposed my above suckerpunch rule.

[Tanarii]

2. The GM's opinion of when you actually have to start rolling for stealth in a particular situation (if he's relatively lenient, then see my post above).You roll stealth when combat begins. I mean, you can roll before, but there's no point. When the check is made is when combat begins, assuming an attempt to use stealth on one side or the other.

Determining encounter distance / awareness is a different matter, it's highly DM variable, and may depend on if surprise was achieved if he decides. Surprise doesn't depend on encounter distance in any way though. It's a check that just happens right at the beginning of combat, provided one side moved stealthy prior to combat.

The big 'problem' with the way surprise is written seem to assume combat. In other words, the don't assume the process is: check for detection at range X, allow detecting sides what to do, start combat if necessary.

They instead work like this:
1) players declare if they're using stealth, as part of how they're traveling, which in the PHB seems to mean 'all outside of combat activity'. And marching order.
2) DM decides if enemies were using stealth prior to starting combat encounter.
3) start combat, check for surprise, roll for initiative.
4) first unsurprised person takes action

That's it. They carefully avoided step-by-step with numbered phases in this rule set. Instead the adventuring chapter tells you about the first thing, and the combat chapter the last three. Determining surprise is the very first thing done when combat erupts, and it's only depended on if one side or the other attempted stealth.

Personally I would have probably written a section for "encounter range, detection, stealth" as one thing prior to encounters (combat or non, depending on what happens), but they clearly wanted to keep it simple, fast and flexible. Unfortunatly it's not really the last, because they made it a little too simple.


Because, technically, if someone of the party is visible (yes, even as a decoy) the target can't be surprised.Of course they can. If you use someone as a decoy, treat them as a separate group. Usually it's not very effective to have the decoy standing right in the middle of your people. :smallwink:


Which is why I proposed my above suckerpunch rule.Im fairly sure that the way they wrote up surprise was to intentionally eliminate 'sucker punches'. Because that causes an awful lot of confusion as to 'when does combat begin' and pre-combat attacks. (The latter don't exist.) The only way to get a sucker punch is to win the initiative roll. And even then there's no way to get surprise.

Also because D&D ultimately is supposed to be a Team PC vs Team Monster dungeon & wilderness adventures game, and is written as such. Not a dueling simulator. Or even 'sudden outbreak of hostilities in a social situation' simulator.

Now, I don't always run pure dungeon/wilderness crawls. So I personally house-rule possible (depending on the situation) to use Deception vs Intuition to achieve surprise in certain social situations. Not if you're already talking to someone or in a Mexican stand-off. But if you're an assassin at a diplomatic negotiation moving up on the unsuspecting ambassador who is engrossed in conversation ...

[Xetheral]

You roll stealth when combat begins. I mean, you can roll before, but there's no point. When the check is made is when combat begins, assuming an attempt to use stealth on one side or the other.

Wait, what? Even taking the stealth rules exactly as written, you roll stealth whenever anyone wants to remain unobserved and is in a position to try to do so. Combat doesn't enter into it unless/until one side or the other wants to attack.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You roll stealth when combat begins. I mean, you can roll before, but there's no point. When the check is made is when combat begins, assuming an attempt to use stealth on one side or the other.I'm going to need a citation to be convinced of this one. It seems clear from the text (to me) that stealth is rolled for all sorts of reasons, some of which are combat related. Imagine the classic trope of a solo stealthy PC sneaking past an incompetent guard. Clearly if the PC succeeds on a stealth check he has avoided combat rather than initiating it. Now suppose the PC changes his mind, because he's a murderhobo who doesn't want to deal with the guard later, and decides he does want to kill the poor sap. Note that nothing has changed, except the PC's decision; in fact, it runs almost exactly like it describes in the combat section, except the stealth roll occurred before anyone knew combat was going to happen.
Surprise doesn't depend on encounter distance in any way though. It's a check that just happens right at the beginning of combat, provided one side moved stealthy prior to combat.If no one is aware of an enemy, combat doesn't start. For all of 5e's vagueness, that's one thing they really didn't have to explicitly write out. To be aware of potential enemies, barring very specific exceptions, one must be able to perceive those enemies. For that to be true, the DM has to decide when it is possible to perceive someone, whether or not they're trying to be stealthy. So your order of operations doesn't work, because starting combat is still determined by non-combat factors.

[Tanarii]

Citation: PHB Chapter 9, Combat, The Order of Combat, Surprise, p189

Otherwise the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

Also, I was wrong, there is a step by step.

Combat step by step:
1) determine surprise
2) established positions
3) roll initiative
4) take turns
5) begin the next round

So stealth checks for surprise occur right at the beginning of combat, before anything else, including determining encounter distance.

[Xetheral]

Citation: PHB Chapter 9, Combat, The Order of Combat, Surprise, p189

Otherwise the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

Also, I was wrong, there is a step by step.

Combat step by step:
1) determine surprise
2) established positions
3) roll initiative
4) take turns
5) begin the next round

So stealth checks for surprise occur right at the beginning of combat, before anything else, including determining encounter distance.

The rules you've cited don't support your claim that stealth is only rolled in a combat situation. I'm looking at the page right now and don't see anything that even begins to suggst that.

[Tanarii]

The rules you've cited don't support your claim that stealth is only rolled in a combat situation. I'm looking at the page right now and don't see anything that even begins to suggst that.

Since that wasn't my claim, it's unsurprising that they don't.

My claim was you determine surprise by rolling stealth when combat begins. The rule cited does support that, because it's exactly what it says.

I mean, you can roll it other times for whatever reason the DM tells you, like hiding. But that's irrelevant to this thread. Edit: and to the post I was quoting, which (I assume) was also about using Stealth to determine surprise. I mean, possibly it wasn't, looking back. Maybe it was about using stealth just to hide, and not to determine surprise. But then it'd be kind of a non-sequitur statement.

[Xetheral]

Since that wasn't my claim, it's unsurprising that they don't.

My claim was you determine surprise by rolling stealth when combat begins. The rule cited does support that, because it's exactly what it says.

I mean, you can roll it other times for whatever reason the DM tells you, like hiding. But that's irrelevant to this thread. Edit: and to the post I was quoting, which (I assume) was also about using Stealth to determine surprise. I mean, possibly it wasn't, looking back. Maybe it was about using stealth just to hide, and not to determine surprise. But then it'd be kind of a non-sequitur statement.

Hmm. Now I'm confused. As I understand it, GoodByeSoberDay was saying that the difficulty of achieving surprise at a given table depended on the DM's opinion of the detection range of the enemies. (He was advocating for 120' in a dungeon environment.)

You replied by saying that there was no point in rolling stealth until combat actually breaks out, but apparently I've misunderstood what you meant by that.

I agree that if someone is still hidden when combat breaks out (and hasn't yet rolled stealth) then you roll it to determine if anyone is surprised. But it would seem to me that if someone enters detection range prior to deciding to initiate combat, then stealth would be rolled immediately, and failure would preclude the possibility of later achieving surprise. I thought you were saying that you never roll stealth until combat actually starts.

Do you disagree with me? Or are we actually in agreement? Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Tanarii]

I agree that if someone is still hidden when combat breaks out (and hasn't yet rolled stealth) then you roll it to determine if anyone is surprised. But it would seem to me that if someone enters detection range prior to deciding to initiate combat, then stealth would be rolled immediately, and failure would preclude the possibility of later achieving surprise. I thought you were saying that you never roll stealth until combat actually starts.

Do you disagree with me? Or are we actually in agreement? Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!I probably wouldn't require don't require players to make two stealth checks, because that's twice the chance of failure for the 'same' situation. If I had them make one prior to the outbreak of combat, for whatever reason, I would certainly use the previous roll, unless it was sufficiently a different situation with a different opportunity for chance of failure or success. And the language of the surprise check is flexible enough you can interpret it as already using a previous check. However, I generally don't have a stealth check for 'detection' prior to combat. As far as I can see, the rules intend you to only make a single check when combat begins for both detection and surprise.

That said, I've read the rules and thought about them and our discussions in this thread and others, and I'm actually changing my mind a bit. Here's how I read it: The stealth check to determine surprise has nothing to do with being a check to be hidden. It's a mechanical resolution to determine if surprise occurs at the start of combat, in the case one side is attempting an ambush. That's it. So if a DM wants to have a 'remain hidden / detection' check prior to combat, that's up to him. (Either separate, or re-use the roll when surprise check occurs, effectively making the determination of surprise well before combat.)

Edit: To be clear, I think of the check as a single abstract mechanical resolution of the situation that one or both sides are attempting to move stealthily. I don't think of it as a simulation of each step of the process from 'moving stealthily, possible detection, move closer stealthily, possible detection, most even closer stealthily' or some other time based process. To me it's one check for the overall situation. IMO generally that's how resolution should be run.

[Xetheral]

I probably wouldn't require don't require players to make two stealth checks, because that's twice the chance of failure for the 'same' situation. If I had them make one prior to the outbreak of combat, for whatever reason, I would certainly use the previous roll, unless it was sufficiently a different situation with a different opportunity for chance of failure or success. And the language of the surprise check is flexible enough you can interpret it as already using a previous check. However, I generally don't have a stealth check for 'detection' prior to combat. As far as I can see, the rules intend you to only make a single check when combat begins for both detection and surprise.

That said, I've read the rules and thought about them and our discussions in this thread and others, and I'm actually changing my mind a bit. Here's how I read it: The stealth check to determine surprise has nothing to do with being a check to be hidden. It's a mechanical resolution to determine if surprise occurs at the start of combat, in the case one side is attempting an ambush. That's it. So if a DM wants to have a 'remain hidden / detection' check prior to combat, that's up to him. (Either separate, or re-use the roll when surprise check occurs, effectively making the determination of surprise well before combat.)

Edit: To be clear, I think of the check as a single abstract mechanical resolution of the situation that one or both sides are attempting to move stealthily. I don't think of it as a simulation of each step of the process from 'moving stealthily, possible detection, move closer stealthily, possible detection, most even closer stealthily' or some other time based process. To me it's one check for the overall situation. IMO generally that's how resolution should be run.

Interestingly, it seems we treat the situation similarly, but for very different reasons. I view the rules about using Dexterity (Stealth) on page 189 as simply a reiteration of how the hiding rules work: in other words, if one is successfully hidden when combat starts, then potential enemies are surprised. (Which, to tie it in to our discussion in a previous thread, probably explains why I view the reiteration of the stealth rules merely as an example of one type of ability check the DM can use to determine surprise.) If I'm interpreting your reading correctly, you view the Dexterity (Stealth) check as an entirely separate form of "surprise check" unrelated to hiding. Is that correct? (I do note, however, that the rules on 189 specifically explicitly mention that you only make the Dexterity (Stealth) check for creatures who are "hiding".)

Just like you though, I'm not going to require multiple stealth checks to remain hidden unless the situation changes significantly. Of course, the farther the range of potential detection, the more potential time there is before someone decides to start combat wherein an opponent might choose to make an active perception check (although I'm not going to pull this on my players unless there is a specific, communicated reason for the opponent to be particularly alert at that moment).

I'm curious though... if your PCs become aware someone is coming up the road behind them, and take the precaution of hiding to give themselves the option of ambusing, I'm reading you as saying that you wouldn't require a stealth check until it was time to determine surprise. So if the PCs never decide to attack, is hiding simply automatic at your table because a stealth check is never made?

[Tanarii]

Interestingly, it seems we treat the situation similarly, but for very different reasons. I view the rules about using Dexterity (Stealth) on page 189 as simply a reiteration of how the hiding rules work: in other words, if one is successfully hidden when combat starts, then potential enemies are surprised. (Which, to tie it in to our discussion in a previous thread, probably explains why I view the reiteration of the stealth rules merely as an example of one type of ability check the DM can use to determine surprise.) If I'm interpreting your reading correctly, you view the Dexterity (Stealth) check as an entirely separate form of "surprise check" unrelated to hiding. Is that correct? (I do note, however, that the rules on 189 specifically explicitly mention that you only make the Dexterity (Stealth) check for creatures who are "hiding".)Page 189 refers to approaching stealthily, as well as the specific of hiding. Hiding is one very specific subset of the Stealth skill, albeit the most common one, so much so that it's given its own sidebar. In fact, page 189 Surprise rules give two non-hiding but stealthy examples, both about stealthy and silent approaches rather than hiding.

So yes, I view the surprise rules on page 189 as a separate & specific use of the Stealth skill from Hiding, although it *also* applies to people that are hidden. Technically that probably means it requires a second check at the beginning of combat if someone is already hidden, but that reduces the already difficult odds of achieving surprise so there's no way I'd run it that way.


I'm curious though... if your PCs become aware someone is coming up the road behind them, and take the precaution of hiding to give themselves the option of ambusing, I'm reading you as saying that you wouldn't require a stealth check until it was time to determine surprise. So if the PCs never decide to attack, is hiding simply automatic at your table because a stealth check is never made?Its automatic unless there's a chance of failure. Checks aren't required for things that don't require success/failure resolution. If the PCs aren't planning to engage the opponents, there's no reason to make any check. I assume they hide far enough away from the road there's no chance of detection in that case. If they are attempting an ambush, then I make the check when he ambush begins.

If they decide to call off the ambush, if they have time to do it and can communicate it in sufficient time, again there's no reason for a check. Clearly they can break off before they can reveal themselves.

Otherwise, I make the check when the ambush begins. If they all choose not to attack on their turn and instead use their Stealth skill to Hide, and succeed, then they might be able to get away immediately. More likely one of them didn't get the message and combat breaks out anyway in that situation though.