Help with building a sneaky bruiser.

[GorinichSerpant]

So I want to build a character for my local Adventure League game that is big but surprisingly sneaky, and whose main skills include intimidation and bashing in skulls. Think of a character that could easily fit into one of Terry Pratchett's books.

The main problem with this is that sneakiness and skull bashing are not things that intersect a lot in D&D. My current idea is to pick either half-orc or human with some appropriate feat and take the first level in rogue for many skills and expertise in intimidate and stealth. The character's second level would be in barbarian and the stats of the character would reflect that. The idea being that the expertise would at least make him decent in the areas of stealth and intimidation while his other resources are put into bashing skulls. It also allows me to use a morningstar prop for roleplaying the character.

It probably isn't optimal but it mechanically represents the character concept, at least it appears that way to me. Can anyone with more experience tell me if there is something wrong with this plan and/or have a better idea of how to do this?

[Axorfett12]

I haven't played it, but I created a similar npc for the game i run. Stump was the bastard son of the orc chief. A little smaller than the others since he's half human, he learned the value of stealth young. The players encountered him when his tribe raided a dwarven settlement.

As a Rogue (Assassin) 3 / Barbarian (Wolf Totem) 3, he decimated a party of 5 level 2 characters. He stealthed and took out the tank with a raging autocrit, then went to town on the rest. He fled when they gained the upper hand but I can attest that the combination works.

I'd take rogue up to three at some point in your build. A half orc with brutal critical autocritting is, well, brutal. Advantage on initiative doesn't hurt either.

The npc I used wore a half plate and used a shield and a rapier. Ended up with an 18 AC and 2d8+4d6+5 damage on a crit. I don't know if that fits your image for the character or not though.

[djreynolds]

I haven't played it, but I created a similar npc for the game i run. Stump was the bastard son of the orc chief. A little smaller than the others since he's half human, he learned the value of stealth young. The players encountered him when his tribe raided a dwarven settlement.

As a Rogue (Assassin) 3 / Barbarian (Wolf Totem) 3, he decimated a party of 5 level 2 characters. He stealthed and took out the tank with a raging autocrit, then went to town on the rest. He fled when they gained the upper hand but I can attest that the combination works.

I'd take rogue up to three at some point in your build. A half orc with brutal critical autocritting is, well, brutal. Advantage on initiative doesn't hurt either.

The npc I used wore a half plate and used a shield and a rapier. Ended up with an 18 AC and 2d8+4d6+5 damage on a crit. I don't know if that fits your image for the character or not though.

Nice build, I think this is spot on to.

Barbarian makes sense with having a high dex and strength, and 14 dex is just enough for medium armor.

Breastplate wearers can stealth with no disadvantage

Half Orc gets intimidation and brutal critical/savage critical

Everyone is bear totem crazy, but wolf and eagle are pretty good to.

Rapier is a finesse weapon and can be used strength

Even dueling short swords is cool

[GorinichSerpant]

Nice build, I think this is spot on to.

Barbarian makes sense with having a high dex and strength, and 14 dex is just enough for medium armor.

Breastplate wearers can stealth with no disadvantage

Half Orc gets intimidation and brutal critical/savage critical

Everyone is bear totem crazy, but wolf and eagle are pretty good to.

Rapier is a finesse weapon and can be used strength

Even dueling short swords is cool

The issue with rapiers and short swords is that you can't use them to sneak up on someone and bash their head in with a heavy object, which is the mental image I'm going for. Unless the GM allows me to wrap a handle around the blade and hit people with the pummel of the rapier.

[SharkForce]

it can also work with fighter instead of barbarian, if you prefer. battlemaster maneuvers work together with rogue quite well.

[djreynolds]

The issue with rapiers and short swords is that you can't use them to sneak up on someone and bash their head in with a heavy object, which is the mental image I'm going for. Unless the GM allows me to wrap a handle around the blade and hit people with the pummel of the rapier.

Well, that's the rub. You need finesse weapons for SA.

But you could go the bard route also. They can sneak just as well.

[GorinichSerpant]

Well, that's the rub. You need finesse weapons for SA.

But you could go the bard route also. They can sneak just as well.

If I don't take anymore rogue levels I could potentially ignore the sneak attack feature for the sake of the concept, or maybe I could grab a ranged weapon with which is still affected by SA, using rage in melee.

[djreynolds]

Well lets look at it like this. A lot of the classes can do what the other classes do.

SharkForce points out a very good point, barbarian could limit the build, but I get the barbarian concept and image.

What you want is really anybody who can smash a skull in with a Morningstar, club, mace with strength and skill

Intimidating, forceful presence. Could be charismatically nasty or a big brute, or a combination

Sneaky/stealthy

Stealth doesn't have to be just sneaking, spells can also mimic this, like invisibility, or even spells like misty step and dimension door... or even darkness.

And also a barbarian, while can't use spells while raging, it doesn't mean he cannot sneak up on you invisible, drop the invisibility, rage and then bash your head in.

I think perhaps a fighter/bard could accomplish this with or without magic

[eldamir]

Well, that's the rub. You need finesse weapons for SA.

But you could go the bard route also. They can sneak just as well.

There's nothing saying you can't sneak up, stick the rapier in him, and then pummel him with your maul (leave the rapier stuck in him as a nice temporary sheath perhaps)

[Joe the Rat]

Going Rogue dip, if you want to have the option to capitalize on sneak attack, you can always carry a dagger or three (I personally think any adventurer worth his salted rations should have a dagger), or hang a scimitar from your belt that looks suspiciously like an oversized meat cleaver. Then you can pick up "The butcher" as a sobriquet.

[Hudsonian]

Depending on how sneaky you want to be, the thief archetype has some sweet sweet perks for sneaky.

I agree with you that the best way to get sneaky/beefy is to dip rogue and mainline barbarian.

I would talk to your DM, see if he will allow you to "attach a hidden blade to the handle of your morningstar". You know, for "surrendering your weapon" into the solar plexus of your enemy.

This would allow for flavorful use of the SA while not taking advantage of it all the time.

Alternatively, I would modify the character vision, because it seems to me like anyone that has taken the time to become an expert at being stealthy will have recognized the importance of being precise at times while other times require overwhelming force. (I did, however, just realize that auto crit on two great weapon strikes as a barbarian does SOOOO much damage.... that's pretty strong flavor for that 3rd lvl of rogue)

[JellyPooga]

Going Rogue dip, if you want to have the option to capitalize on sneak attack, you can always carry a dagger or three (I personally think any adventurer worth his salted rations should have a dagger), or hang a scimitar from your belt that looks suspiciously like an oversized meat cleaver. Then you can pick up "The butcher" as a sobriquet.

I'm seconding and thirding this.

All adventurers should have a knife and any Rogue worth the name has at least two concealed knives for evey one they have on display.

Also, just because it's a Finesse weapon, doesn't mean it has to look like one. I love "The Butcher" idea and I'm totally stealing it! Abandoning Sneak Attack to fit a concept is a bad idea; you'd be better off looking at other classes than Rogue if you're not going to use their primary damage buff. Remember; a scimitar in the hands of a level 1 Rogue does as much damage as a Greatsword and you can fluff that attack however you like. Smashing skulls with something that doesn't look like it can is...well, somewhat terrifying!

You might want to give a thought to putting Expertise in Athletics and looking at the odd grapple or shove every now and then; nothing beats a good grapple for showing people who's boss and Rogue/Barbarians do it better than anyone (well, except Bards, oddly enough).

[Yuroch Kern]

An add on to being a sneaky bruiser: get Tavern brawler. You'll gain proficiency in the big-ass rock/table you're hiding around the corner with. Then hold him still as you begin to explain things with your fists. Works with any build.

[Eladain]

It's also worth noting that while you do need a finesse/ranged weapon for SA dice, you do not need it for the assassin's crit. So even if you used a Great Axe that opening round crit will still sting and fit the image you have in your head a little better.

Opening round:

Great Axe (assume GWM as first feat) - 3d12 + 15 and 3d12+15 on your GWM bonus attack since it's a crit.

Rapier + Shield - 2d8 + 4d6 + 5

This does require level 7 before it "comes online" so to speak to get Barb/Fighter 4 for a feat and Rogue 3 for assassin. Then at lvl 8 you get 2nd Attack regardless of the fighter/barb choice. So another 3d12+15 vs 2d8+5 for the rapier second attack.

A lot boils down to personal preference (massive dmg vs extra durability with a shield vs how you picture your character). Given Hal-Orc Relentless endurance, and Barbarian resistance/HP I tend to go for the damage.

[Joe the Rat]

Tavern Brawler is *really* good on a bruiser. It also gives you something to do with your spare hand when you're morningstarring (Morningstaring? Morgensternung? Lucy?) people in the face. Like hold them still.


Also, just because it's a Finesse weapon, doesn't mean it has to look like one. I love "The Butcher" idea and I'm totally stealing it! Of course. It's really not a rogue concept unless theft is involved at some point. I probably stole it from somewhere in the first place...

[Hudsonian]

Question:
What level are you playing this from? In my opinion, level 1 as a barbarian is much easier to survive than lvl 1 as a rogue, especially if you are the tank of your party for later levels.

Also, AFB, what are the differences in skills/prof. that change from taking rogue THEN barb vs barb THEN rogue.

what background are you going for?

[JellyPooga]

Question:
What level are you playing this from? In my opinion, level 1 as a barbarian is much easier to survive than lvl 1 as a rogue, especially if you are the tank of your party for later levels.

That's an...interesting question.

Barbarian has more HP, better AC and Rage, as well as the King of Saves (Con). This is hands down better for surviving the front lines during those early levels. However, there's also the fact that with those boons comes the temptation to push them to the limit...which oft leads to an early grave, in my experience.

Rogue, on the other hand, gets you an extra Skill proficiency and Expertise right out the door; not boons I'd advise ignoring. The relative squishy-ness engenders a more careful and considered approach, which will stand you in good stead at higher levels when the gribblies start getting nasty and the non-combat application of Stealth, Perception and Intimidate can mean avoiding a fight all together.

I personally think Rogues have an easier time getting to 2nd level and above, if only because they tend not to be so suicidally inclined!

[eldamir]

I personally think Rogues have an easier time getting to 2nd level and above, if only because they tend not to be so suicidally inclined!

I would tend to agree here .. I'm transitioning to a lvl1 rogue after playing a greatsword-wielding paladin for a while ... the temptation to rush in (and die) is quickly getting squashed!

[Hudsonian]

the temptation to rush in (and die) is quickly getting squashed!

Don't you mean squished? hehe.

So one of the other reasons I would say to start barbarian is that if you think about that type of character and roleplaying WHY are you multiclassing, it seems like a beast of a man that consistently gets beaten within an inch of his life (every fight at lvl 1 IMHO) would learn the need for stealth rapidly, whereas a thief would probably need a particular story point to develop a burning well of unquenchable rage that causes him to abandon all thoughts of self perseverance and destroy all known enemies.


you know, just thoughts on character design.

JellyPooga had some great points on "AT LEVEL 1". But my real question is, "at level 2, what is the difference between Rogue 1/barb 1 vs. barb 1/Rogue 1?" It seems like the biggest difference is Con save proficiency. (Still AFB, but I do know that you don't get all of the proficiencies from the second class. See Multiclassing chapter of PHB.)

[GorinichSerpant]

I could also potentially start with a variant human tavern brawler. Then he'd take a broken bottle or other object that's similar to a weapon that works with SA and use that to get a hold of someone, then smash their face in. Also if unarmed strikes are considered finesse then it could lead to some amusing scenes like: "I heave my morningstar above my head, then jab 'em in the eye with two fingers."

For background I'm thinking of taking Far Traveler because that's going to lead to some amusing roleplay and allows me to start the game knowing how to gamble properly. I'm also going to take Goblin as a bonus language and have him learn his fighting style either directly or indirectly from bugbears.

[R.Shackleford]

So I want to build a character for my local Adventure League game that is big but surprisingly sneaky, and whose main skills include intimidation and bashing in skulls. Think of a character that could easily fit into one of Terry Pratchett's books.

The main problem with this is that sneakiness and skull bashing are not things that intersect a lot in D&D. My current idea is to pick either half-orc or human with some appropriate feat and take the first level in rogue for many skills and expertise in intimidate and stealth. The character's second level would be in barbarian and the stats of the character would reflect that. The idea being that the expertise would at least make him decent in the areas of stealth and intimidation while his other resources are put into bashing skulls. It also allows me to use a morningstar prop for roleplaying the character.

It probably isn't optimal but it mechanically represents the character concept, at least it appears that way to me. Can anyone with more experience tell me if there is something wrong with this plan and/or have a better idea of how to do this?

Strogue man Strogue man! *guitar riff*

Best way to do this is to do Vhuman (Moderately armored) Rogue (swashbuckler).

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

(Ability scores might be off a bit on Wis and Cha... didn't check them)

AC: (should be able to gain hide armor) 13 + 2 + 2 (17)... eventually get a breastplate.

Expertise in Intimidation and Stealth and later Persuasion and Athletics

There are countless feats to take at level 4, shield master let's you bash and get advantage.

Going straight rogue is great as you never need to really raise your ability scores and can just focus on feats.

[SharkForce]

Strogue man Strogue man! *guitar riff*

Best way to do this is to do Vhuman (Moderately armored) Rogue (swashbuckler).

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

(Ability scores might be off a bit on Wis and Cha... didn't check them)

AC: (should be able to gain hide armor) 13 + 2 + 2 (17)... eventually get a breastplate.

Expertise in Intimidation and Stealth and later Persuasion and Athletics

There are countless feats to take at level 4, shield master let's you bash and get advantage.

Going straight rogue is great as you never need to really raise your ability scores and can just focus on feats.

i really like a 3-level battlemaster dip in there somewhere. rogue and battlemaster are just such a good combination.

[Toofey]

Hey I posted this in the wrong thread.

I'm not sure your character concept is actually a theif, have you thought about taking basic theif skills using the criminal background, then going straight Barbarian, it feels closer to your concept to me.

[smcmike]

I would start barbarian. More hit points and enough skills. Also, you'll end up with advantage on a lot of dex saves, so you get better coverage with proficiency in con.

Alternatively, some sort of strength monk, with a bit of reskinning. When you "bonk" someone on the head, you are trying to stun them. You know who stuns people? Monks.

[Arkhios]

Point-buy human barbarian with medium armor master as a bonus feat at first level:
Str 15+1, Dex 15+1, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8.

You'll start with a decent 15 AC (unarmored), and once you get enough money, buy a scale mail (50gp, should come early) and you'll end up with AC 17 with no stealth issues.

Grab shortsword and describe it as a punching dagger. It's functionally very similar (can't be thrown, piercing, and most importantly - a finesse weapon), and compared to the 3.5 equivalent it's peak critical damage is equal (3d4 vs. 2d6; total 12 both).

You'll want both Tavern Brawler and Grappler to become super effective at taking down people single-handedly, and it fits the street thug image.

Then, as you become a rogue, you can start shanking people into their guts.

Eventually, with Half-plate you'll definitely look intimidating in the back alley.