PDA

View Full Version : Trip / Disarm / Etc. on an AoO?



Tyger
2007-07-03, 02:15 PM
Can you attempt a trip / disarm / sunder etc on an attack of opportunity? I can't find anything in RAW that says no, but at the same time, I can't find anything that says yes. :smallsmile:

Can anyone point a confirmation one way or the other, out to me?

EDIT: Specifically looking for a RULE, FAQ ENTRY or ERRATA ENTRY that specifically speaks to this question. Really looking for an anwer per RAW here.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-03, 02:24 PM
Generally, everything you can do with a normal attack (not a standard action) you can also do with an AoO.

SolkaTruesilver
2007-07-03, 02:28 PM
IF you threaten. You can't make an AoO with a bow, or a spell. Nor can you trip if you haven't a trip-weapon, or you do not have Improved Unarmed Strike.

and if you don't have the proper feat, you still provoke an attack of opportunity fromthe one you try these things. which means he will get his AoO before yours.

Tyger
2007-07-03, 02:33 PM
Thanks Solka, I do understand how AoOs work though. Though I would point out that there are times when you can make an AoO (perhaps tripping) without a weapon or the feat, but that's not the question here.

Lord_Silvanos, can you point to a rule, errata or FAQ entry that states this, or is this just your interpretation? I'm easy either way. I have a character that uses trip in one campaign, and DM in another with a character that wants to do this. So if it works by RAW, we're golden. If its doesn't, then that's fine as well. Just hoping to find an actual rule anywhere that decides the issue for us without having to go to Rule 0.

horseboy
2007-07-03, 02:37 PM
Yeah, if you're oh, a 2nd level human fighter with a good dex, hold the line, improve trip, combat reflexes and combat expertise and equipped with a gusarme you can trip attack the entire first wave of the kobolds charging the party a square away from you.

Tyger
2007-07-03, 02:40 PM
Yeah, if you're oh, a 2nd level human fighter with a good dex, hold the line, improve trip, combat reflexes and combat expertise and equipped with a gusarme you can trip attack the entire first wave of the kobolds charging the party a square away from you.

Again, can you point to a rule/errata or FAQ entry that specifically states this? Or is this interpretation?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-03, 02:43 PM
You will see that an AoO is just described as a melee attack:


An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack...

Many special attacks are described the same way:


DISARM

As a melee attack,...

This is of course just my RAW interpretation (as always), but the FAQ happens to agree.


Can you make a trip attack (or other special attack) as an attack of opportunity?

Yes, as long as you make the trip attack (or other special attack) with a weapon with which you threaten the target. For example, unless you wield a weapon that allows you to make a trip attack, trip attacks are unarmed attacks; a character who doesn’t threaten while unarmed couldn’t make an unarmed trip attack as an attack of opportunity.

(There are other FAQ entries that explicitly or implicitly say the same thing)

Jasdoif
2007-07-03, 02:47 PM
Again, can you point to a rule/errata or FAQ entry that specifically states this? Or is this interpretation?Disarm, Sunder and Trip say right there in their descriptions that can you do them as a "melee attack".


Disarm

As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent.

Sunder

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.
Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.

So any time you can make a melee attack, you can use of them instead of a normal attack. This includes Attacks of Opportunity and iterative attacks, among other things.


EDIT: I should have known I would be ninja'd by the Popcorn Tyrant. But I have more (SRD) quotes, so ha!

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-03, 02:49 PM
...

Looks like you have a chance of actually tasting some popcorn today Jasdoif. :smallamused:

FireSpark
2007-07-03, 02:51 PM
and if you don't have the proper feat, you still provoke an attack of opportunity fromthe one you try these things. which means he will get his AoO before yours.

Not true. While prone (and until you have completed your move action to stand up again) you don't threaten any spaces, and therefore attacking said person standing up, would not provoke any AoOs. (at least from the guy standing up)

Tyger
2007-07-03, 02:51 PM
This is of course just my RAW interpretation (as always), but the FAQ happens to agree.



Originally Posted by FAQ
Can you make a trip attack (or other special attack) as an attack of opportunity?

Yes, as long as you make the trip attack (or other special attack) with a weapon with which you threaten the target. For example, unless you wield a weapon that allows you to make a trip attack, trip attacks are unarmed attacks; a character who doesn’t threaten while unarmed couldn’t make an unarmed trip attack as an attack of opportunity.

(There are other FAQ entries that explicitly or implicitly say the same thing)


Lord-Silvanos, you are, not to put it too lightly, quite simply, the man.

Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for. Gracias, muchos gracias.

Spiryt
2007-07-03, 02:57 PM
EDIT: I should have known I would be ninja'd by the Popcorn Tyrant.



http://wiecek.biz/pliki/popcorn/12_popcorn_na_talerzu.jpg

OK, I can sponsor popcorn, if you explain what are you talking about :smallamused:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-03, 03:01 PM
Not true. While prone (and until you have completed your move action to stand up again) you don't threaten any spaces, and therefore attacking said person standing up, would not provoke any AoOs. (at least from the guy standing up)

There is a few things you could nitpick in SolkaTruesilver's post (like holding the charge of a spell to make an AoO with it or using a natural weapon to trip), but this part about being prone is not correct.

You still threaten, even while being prone. (you have -4 on attack rolls though)

Jasdoif
2007-07-03, 03:02 PM
Here's a FAQ entry that covers them all.
Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table, but the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder a melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with a melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack?

Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive text for the Manyshot feat says).

If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once, or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking and sundering.

Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8–2: Actions in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder feat).

You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or attack of opportunity).




Looks like you have a chance of actually tasting some popcorn today Jasdoif. :smallamused:Ooh ooh, do I get on the popcorn list?!




OK, I can sponsor popcorn, if you explain what are you talking about :smallamused:While Lord_Silvanos' user title says "Bugbear in the Playground" and not "The Popcorn Tyrant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43039), Floating Master of All Things Crunchy and Often Buttery (And Predominately RAW-legal)", I assure you that it's simply an administrative oversight. :smalltongue:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-03, 03:28 PM
Tyger: Always glad if we can help :smallsmile: (especially while ninja'ing :smalltongue: )

Spiryt: Thanks for the popcorn. It will not be forgotten. :smallwink:



Ooh ooh, do I get on the popcorn list?!

We will see how it goes.
I was just ninja'ed in the Q&A thread again again again :smallfurious: :smallyuk: :smalltongue:

Tyger
2007-07-03, 08:44 PM
And after all that, there's the answer, straight from the PHB on page 141, note 7. Jeez... thanks guys.

Now, tangental question. If you trip someone with a reach weapon, say glaive or spiked chain, when then attempt to move from 10' to 5' away, and you are successful. Where do they land? In the square 10' away or the one next to you, i.e. 5'?

It would seem to me, based on the rules, that they would fall in the 10' square, as the AoO interrupts their movement from the 10 to the 5, so...

Damned rules. Always getting in the way of my sleep! :)

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-03, 08:58 PM
Exactly. We had a pretty long discussion about this recently, but I'm sick of digging through the forums now.

Tyger
2007-07-03, 09:01 PM
OK, then that's seriously messed up. :smallannoyed:

In other words, so long as the tripper manages to trip each round, the poor bloke trying to get close to him is screwed, i.e. will never successfully close the gap, and will die a horrible, and ignoble death. That's just cruel. Now I am starting to see why people don't like the spiked chain.

Joltz
2007-07-03, 09:04 PM
Yes, AoOs resolve before the action that provoked them so they'd fall in the space 10' away.

I don't remember where it says that in the rules but I remember that one of the special effects of Robilar's Gambit is that the granted AoOs resolve after the action that provoked them instead of before.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-03, 09:07 PM
OK, then that's seriously messed up. :smallannoyed:

In other words, so long as the tripper manages to trip each round, the poor bloke trying to get close to him is screwed, i.e. will never successfully close the gap, and will die a horrible, and ignoble death. That's just cruel. Now I am starting to see why people don't like the spiked chain.

Not really. The AoO provoked when standing happens before he stands, thus he can't be tripped since he's already prone. So then he finishes standing up and has an action he can take.

It's bad, but not THAT bad...

Tyger
2007-07-03, 09:13 PM
Not really. The AoO provoked when standing happens before he stands, thus he can't be tripped since he's already prone. So then he finishes standing up and has an action he can take.

It's bad, but not THAT bad...

Except, if you have multiple attacks per round, you trip the poor bugger when he tries to close, then hit him with your remaining attack(s). Now free 5 back 5 feet. He stands up, and has to move again through your threatened areas, taking another AoO trip. Rinse, cycle, repeat, die.

Nasty.

EDIT: Of course, if he had another move action after you tripped him, yes, he could stand up. Though he's still 10' away, and can't close with you, as he's used up both move actions. He should just run back and draw a crossbow. :)

horseboy
2007-07-03, 09:17 PM
Not really. The AoO provoked when standing happens before he stands, thus he can't be tripped since he's already prone. So then he finishes standing up and has an action he can take.

It's bad, but not THAT bad...

No, if he's in the process of standing up, and you give him the "Props are dangerous" and pull his arm out from under him again, he stays down.

It's even worse if the 1st level mage has ray of enfeeblement. Then you can take an orge down.

horseboy
2007-07-03, 09:20 PM
Except, if you have multiple attacks per round, you trip the poor bugger when he tries to close, then hit him with your remaining attack(s). Now free 5 back 5 feet. He stands up, and has to move again through your threatened areas, taking another AoO trip. Rinse, cycle, repeat, die.

Nasty.

EDIT: Of course, if he had another move action after you tripped him, yes, he could stand up. Though he's still 10' away, and can't close with you, as he's used up both move actions. He should just run back and draw a crossbow. :)

With improved trip you trip him, knock him down, attack him, then take your normal attack, hitting him twice in one round even at first level

Damionte
2007-07-03, 09:23 PM
Not true. While prone (and until you have completed your move action to stand up again) you don't threaten any spaces, and therefore attacking said person standing up, would not provoke any AoOs. (at least from the guy standing up)

You still threaten when prone. You simply take numerical penalties to the things you can do. And can't use a bow, or move around properly. Other than that you fight the same.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-03, 09:43 PM
With improved trip you trip him, knock him down, attack him, then take your normal attack, hitting him twice in one round even at first level

Wouldn't you already have used your one "normal attack" to do the Trip in the first place?

Arbitrarity
2007-07-03, 09:51 PM
Knockdown FTW.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-03, 10:30 PM
Wouldn't you already have used your one "normal attack" to do the Trip in the first place?

I think he means using the AoO to trip, then Improved Trip to get a free attack, then your regularly scheduled attack.

And there's a simple solution... it's called a 5' step, which doesn't provoke an AoO. If you're 10' away from him, stand up, take the hit, take a 5' step closer, then wail away at him.

If you back up, you beg him to use the Power Attack/Shock Trooper combo to charge you, stopping at 10' distant to slam you with his charge so as to avoid AoO himself, and drop 2-3 times your BAB in damage down upon you without a penalty to attack. This hurts.

horseboy
2007-07-04, 12:16 AM
Wouldn't you already have used your one "normal attack" to do the Trip in the first place?

I was using "Hold the line" so I could get an AoO from the mob's charge, tripped him, hit him for free, then hit him for my regular attack.

Next turn he gets up, provoking AoO, trip him again, hit him again. Then regular attack again.

The trip fighter really isn't there to damage though, he's there to mitigate the mobs so they can't hurt the party.

Fishies
2007-07-04, 12:24 AM
It's even worse if the 1st level mage has ray of enfeeblement. Then you can take an orge down.

Wait, you mean there's 1st level mages that DON'T have ray of enfeeblement?

horseboy
2007-07-04, 12:41 AM
I think he means using the AoO to trip, then Improved Trip to get a free attack, then your regularly scheduled attack.

And there's a simple solution... it's called a 5' step, which doesn't provoke an AoO. If you're 10' away from him, stand up, take the hit, take a 5' step closer, then wail away at him.

If you back up, you beg him to use the Power Attack/Shock Trooper combo to charge you, stopping at 10' distant to slam you with his charge so as to avoid AoO himself, and drop 2-3 times your BAB in damage down upon you without a penalty to attack. This hurts.

Nah, don't have power attack.

I'll talk to the DM Saturday. He's been talking with the triad to get back his N cleric of Fharlanghn back to player control. Since switching to LE for sundering a rock is rather excessive. I'll have him ask about this whole can you stand up after a trip attack thing.

horseboy
2007-07-04, 12:44 AM
Wait, you mean there's 1st level mages that DON'T have ray of enfeeblement?

Don't have? Or don't have memmorized? :smallamused:

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-04, 01:52 AM
I was using "Hold the line" so I could get an AoO from the mob's charge, tripped him, hit him for free, then hit him for my regular attack.

Next turn he gets up, provoking AoO, trip him again, hit him again. Then regular attack again.

The trip fighter really isn't there to damage though, he's there to mitigate the mobs so they can't hurt the party.

Close, but no cigar...

you can't trip him when he provokes an AoO by standing up, because he is still prone at that point, and you cannot trip a prone person. Of course, once he stands up, you get your regular attack, whch can be a trip, but he gets his action first.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-04, 04:31 AM
While he's getting up from prone, you disarm him.:smallbiggrin:

Tyger
2007-07-04, 07:54 AM
I think he means using the AoO to trip, then Improved Trip to get a free attack, then your regularly scheduled attack.

And there's a simple solution... it's called a 5' step, which doesn't provoke an AoO. If you're 10' away from him, stand up, take the hit, take a 5' step closer, then wail away at him.

If you back up, you beg him to use the Power Attack/Shock Trooper combo to charge you, stopping at 10' distant to slam you with his charge so as to avoid AoO himself, and drop 2-3 times your BAB in damage down upon you without a penalty to attack. This hurts.

Except for two things... one, he's already used a move action (standing up) so he can't take a free 5. And two, after your attack, you take a free 5, so he now has 15' to cover, which he can't free 5 through.

As for his response, if he is using Shock Trooper, he's just that much easier to trip, with his AC in the tank. There are great responses, but this one seems a dangerous choice. Especially because it doesn't appear (to me) to get around the tripper's ability to stop you before you get to him.

I am starting to see why some people hate the "trip-monkey" fighters. Not sure if I do or not yet. Fighters need some love!

Callix
2007-07-04, 08:07 AM
Tyger: For more Shock Trooper irritation, take Elusive Target. +60 damage? No. -20 AC. For nothing.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-04, 08:10 AM
Except for two things... one, he's already used a move action (standing up) so he can't take a free 5. And two, after your attack, you take a free 5, so he now has 15' to cover, which he can't free 5 through.

As for his response, if he is using Shock Trooper, he's just that much easier to trip, with his AC in the tank. There are great responses, but this one seems a dangerous choice. Especially because it doesn't appear (to me) to get around the tripper's ability to stop you before you get to him.

I am starting to see why some people hate the "trip-monkey" fighters. Not sure if I do or not yet. Fighters need some love!

Ahh, perhaps I did not explain clearly...

I'm talking about using shock trooper to charge with a two-handed weapon of reach. That means your reach is equal to his, and thus you don't provoke an AoO getting too close. Then you lay the smack down with your 100+ damage a hit, and wipe the remains off of your weapon.

Also, who cares if you can hit with the touch attack. Go ahead. You still have to make the contested check. Depending on what you're trying to trip, this can be difficult indeed. This is where most people focus on, since touch attacks are rediculously easy to land on anything but a monk.

Also, trip-monkey fighters are less than optimal against four-footed and very large creatures. Try tossing him against a Giant, for instance. He'll hit, sure, but then he's gonna loose the contested roll since the giant has like twice his strength plus size modifiers to the trip attempt. And some things are immune to trip attacks. I'd love to see what he does when he's staring down a few Shadows, for instance...

Damionte
2007-07-04, 08:11 AM
Except for two things... one, he's already used a move action (standing up) so he can't take a free 5. And two, after your attack, you take a free 5, so he now has 15' to cover, which he can't free 5 through.

As for his response, if he is using Shock Trooper, he's just that much easier to trip, with his AC in the tank. There are great responses, but this one seems a dangerous choice. Especially because it doesn't appear (to me) to get around the tripper's ability to stop you before you get to him.

I am starting to see why some people hate the "trip-monkey" fighters. Not sure if I do or not yet. Fighters need some love!

Actually the 5 foot step can not be combined with actual movement. it doesn't say you can't combien a 5 foot step with a move action. It says you can't combine it with movement. Thus many will concede that he can still take a 5ver after getting up.

Assuming he's not in some kind of harsh terrain that's restricting his movement, or under some other effect that's doing the same.

Now some GM's may consider the move action to stand up as movement. Though it is literally movement it's not movement as far as the mechanics see it. I know it's not realyl a discusion for this thread though,

Just note that some folkd interpret the RAW differently on that point.

EDIT: The trip build is nasty, but don't be fooled into thinking it is unbeatable. Trip builds are clever and are very good at crowd control against humanoid sized opponents. It can be a bit light on damage though depending on what other feats you take or what weapon you chose.

It completely owns most two weapon fighter builds. But onyl draws even with two handed weapon power attack builds. Especially a build that also uses a reach weapon.

The build is also completely owned by many skirmishing spring attack builds.

Melee builds do have a bit of a rock paper scissors layout to them.

Two weapon fighters can put out the most damage per round, two handed weapon fiighters can do the most with a single shot. Both are also great against big monsters.

Crowd control fighters can hold ground well against humanoids but tend to be a little less useful against the big bad monsters. against medium and below sized creatures they're the only warrior type that can truly tank.

While skirmishers can whittle you down if you give them enough time.

SolkaTruesilver
2007-07-04, 09:22 AM
Also, trip-monkey fighters are less than optimal against four-footed and very large creatures. Try tossing him against a Giant, for instance. He'll hit, sure, but then he's gonna loose the contested roll since the giant has like twice his strength plus size modifiers to the trip attempt. And some things are immune to trip attacks. I'd love to see what he does when he's staring down a few Shadows, for instance...

QFT. HOWEVER, in our game, we have 2 main melee. A fighter and a Duskblade. The fighter has been oriented on a pure greatsword-damage build, and the Duskblade had taken quite a few trip-monkey build, and fight with a flail.

They compliment each other well, and the Duskblade isn't completely out of the loop against un-trippable opponent. Off course, I always have Enlarge Person ready to help him, so he can trip&disarm at a reach distance... mwahahaha!

+18 to his attack modifier when attempting to disarm.. at level 6.. hehe..

horseboy
2007-07-04, 10:44 AM
Ahh, perhaps I did not explain clearly...

I'm talking about using shock trooper to charge with a two-handed weapon of reach. That means your reach is equal to his, and thus you don't provoke an AoO getting too close. Then you lay the smack down with your 100+ damage a hit, and wipe the remains off of your weapon.

Also, who cares if you can hit with the touch attack. Go ahead. You still have to make the contested check. Depending on what you're trying to trip, this can be difficult indeed. This is where most people focus on, since touch attacks are rediculously easy to land on anything but a monk.

Also, trip-monkey fighters are less than optimal against four-footed and very large creatures. Try tossing him against a Giant, for instance. He'll hit, sure, but then he's gonna loose the contested roll since the giant has like twice his strength plus size modifiers to the trip attempt. And some things are immune to trip attacks. I'd love to see what he does when he's staring down a few Shadows, for instance...

Well, I've got a 20 str (16+4 belt of giant strength) giving me a +9 to the trip roll. A fire giant has +18 on me, so I'd need to roll 10 better than him. Yeah that's hard. That's where the rest of the party comes in. Sometimes I've got to wait a turn or two while the rage mage enfeebles the giant, giving me better odds.

Shadows aren't my department. That's the job of the Mystic Thruge of Wee Jass, he rebukes, sends them through the rest of the dungeon, killing everything else. We do the victory dance and then collect the loot.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-04, 06:31 PM
Well, I've got a 20 str (16+4 belt of giant strength) giving me a +9 to the trip roll. A fire giant has +18 on me, so I'd need to roll 10 better than him. Yeah that's hard. That's where the rest of the party comes in. Sometimes I've got to wait a turn or two while the rage mage enfeebles the giant, giving me better odds.

Shadows aren't my department. That's the job of the Mystic Thruge of Wee Jass, he rebukes, sends them through the rest of the dungeon, killing everything else. We do the victory dance and then collect the loot.

Ummm... almost...

That means you need to roll 10 MORE than he does. So if he rolls a 10, you need a natural 20 to beat him.

And the mystic theurge of wee jas won't be rebuking anything, since he turns as a 3rd level cleric since mystic theurges don't progress turning. And if you wait a turn or two while the rage mage enfeebles him, you're getting pelted by rocks for 4d6+10.

horseboy
2007-07-04, 06:47 PM
Ummm... almost...

That means you need to roll 10 MORE than he does. So if he rolls a 10, you need a natural 20 to beat him.

And the mystic theurge of wee jas won't be rebuking anything, since he turns as a 3rd level cleric since mystic theurges don't progress turning. And if you wait a turn or two while the rage mage enfeebles him, you're getting pelted by rocks for 4d6+10.

I thought I did say that.

We're around 9th. Yeah, he rebuked a greater either shade or shadow. I don't remember which. (I find that large amounts of alcohol help me tolerate d20)

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-04, 06:59 PM
I thought I did say that.

We're around 9th. Yeah, he rebuked a greater either shade or shadow. I don't remember which. (I find that large amounts of alcohol help me tolerate d20)

Horseturds. A greater shadow is 9 HD with a Turn Resistance of +2, for an effective HD of 11 for purposes of turning. There's no way in hell a 3rd level effective cleric is gonna rebuke it. Even with rolling a 22+ on his turn check, he won't be able to turn anything higher than 7 HD.

Heck, even a REGULAR shadow, which is just a CR3 critter and not even a threat for a level party high enough to have a MT, has 3 HD and a +2 turn resistance, which means he needs to roll a 16+ to be able to turn the thing.

Maybe your GM forgot that caster level /= turning level...

horseboy
2007-07-05, 03:16 PM
Horseturds. A greater shadow is 9 HD with a Turn Resistance of +2, for an effective HD of 11 for purposes of turning. There's no way in hell a 3rd level effective cleric is gonna rebuke it. Even with rolling a 22+ on his turn check, he won't be able to turn anything higher than 7 HD.

Heck, even a REGULAR shadow, which is just a CR3 critter and not even a threat for a level party high enough to have a MT, has 3 HD and a +2 turn resistance, which means he needs to roll a 16+ to be able to turn the thing.

Maybe your GM forgot that caster level /= turning level...

Called him up, he said he took cleric to 4th level. Also has improved turning, empowered turning, a Phylactery of Undead turning, and a mad charisma bonus. He's turning as a 9th level cleric. He also said that the LG faq clarified that you can chain trip. I'm looking for it now, will post link when I find it.