Help me make a tank build?

[Douche]

Hello everyone,

I remember reading a topic about AC/HP not being the primary tanking feature a while ago, and that you need something spicy & special if you want to effectively capture the attention of your enemies and give your allies a bonus to attacking that creature. The one thing I really remember out of it is the use of the grappler feat to lock down the biggest threat of the group.

So basically, I was thinking of making a Bear-Barb/Rogue multiclass vuman with the grappler feat. (only 1 or 2 levels in rogue for expertise (in athletics, obviously) & cunning action if I feel like it - perhaps to get a free dash when murderhobo-ing and needing to chase down some innocent shmuck. We'll see)

Other than that, are there any other good tanking builds y'all can produce? Have you guys played a grappler build before, and how did you feel about it? Is it effective in helping your allies and being a good tank?

And one question: I don't have the book right now... Does the "restrained" condition as part of the pin for grappling mean that I can attack while my opponent is pinned by me?

[MightyDog16]

Here's the thing about tanks, once the DM figures out that it's a waste of time trying to kill you, he won't try anymore. I've seen it time and again.

[Oramac]

I've not played a Grappler yet (though I want to), so I can't really comment on that.

As for tanking, other than AC/HP you need some way to make the enemy focus on you rather than your squishy friends. Grappling should do it, though as I said, I've not played that so I'm not 100% sure. The Barbarian's Reckless Attack is one way to do it, if your enemies are smart enough to take advantage of it. Another way is the 14th level Bear Totem feature.

If you don't mind homebrew, the Oath of the Undying Death Knight in my sig was specifically designed to be very tanky.

[Douche]

Here's the thing about tanks, once the DM figures out that it's a waste of time trying to kill you, he won't try anymore. I've seen it time and again.

Precisely, that's why I began the topic by saying that AC/HP aren't the only thing that matters. I am looking for a good gimmick.

Grappler is good because it locks down one target & makes your allies attacks on it have advantage.

[Toofey]

Here's the thing about tanks, once the DM figures out that it's a waste of time trying to kill you, he won't try anymore. I've seen it time and again.


UGH, clearly doing it wrong, as DM I always target these characters more because they can take the hits you need to sustain suspense.

EDIT: forgot point, If you take sentinel it can be a good way to keep the big damage dealing enemies close to you.

[gfishfunk]

Rogue is not necessary for the build, although it is helpful.

I imagine that you want to gain expertise on athletics for grappling. While raging, you have advantage on strength checks (including Grappling), so during rages you can grapple a bit more easily. Grapple *MIGHT end Rage early depending on how you read Rage: if you do not attack an enemy or take damage, your rage ends. Grapple uses the attack action, but is not an attack (it replaced ONE attack). Tavern Brawler might be a better fit, but force you to go unarmed, because you can still attack (and then immediately grapple) during your rages.

The nice thing about grappling is that it depends a little less on DM fiat, as you lock down 1 v 1 on one opponent.

Alternatively, the shield master feat might be a better fit for you: while raging, you can use your bonus action after an attack to shield bast, using athletics (with advantage during the rate) to knock an enemy prone. This makes it less easy to tie up an enemy, but works better with rage.

[Zman]

Here's the thing about tanks, once the DM figures out that it's a waste of time trying to kill you, he won't try anymore. I've seen it time and again.

Not all DMs will do this and IMO only a DM that is using Metaknowledge improperly will. Now, if an enemy attacks you and can't hit you, it may break off for a different target, but if the DM purposefully avoids having anyone attack your tank because they are a tank and that is done without any relevant information to point to that available, then the DM is using knowledge they shouldn't have.

[the secret fire]

Not all DMs will do this and IMO only a DM that is using Metaknowledge improperly will. Now, if an enemy attacks you and can't hit you, it may break off for a different target, but if the DM purposefully avoids having anyone attack your tank because they are a tank and that is done without any relevant information to point to that available, then the DM is using knowledge they shouldn't have.

It's always a fine line as a DM. Ideally, enemies should behave according to their intelligence, meaning some will avoid an obvious tank (the guy in the plate mail) or even learn over time who is who if they are recurring villains. On the other hand, run-of-the mill mooks should "fall for it" most of the time.

Regarding tanking, it is at any rate critical to any tanky build that the character have something quite dangerous to do offensively. I mean...real tanks have big cannons, don't they?

Paladins, especially those with pole arm master, are generally the easiest "tanks that can hurt you" to build because of their obvious nova potential through divine smite, though there are many path that lead to Rome.

[R.Shackleford]

The best way to tank is reckless attack and liberal use of the free talking on your turn.

Reckless Attack makes you a target, there isn't much reason to not target you (go bear or wolf).

Liberal use of talking on tour turn? Put creatures on blast. Absolutely give them some sick burns. The DM won'the have much of a choice but target the person who called the Hobgoblin the son of a woman... Well, I don't want to get kicked off giantitp but you get the picture.

[Specter]

Instead of Rogue, I'd go Battlemaster for this build. If you're tanking, it's possible your Sneak Attack won't apply in many situations. A mandatory maneuver would be Goading Attack. Plus, Fighting Style and extra healing.

[R.Shackleford]

Instead of Rogue, I'd go Battlemaster for this build. If you're tanking, it's possible your Sneak Attack won't apply in many situations. A mandatory maneuver would be Goading Attack. Plus, Fighting Style and extra healing.

Sneak attack happens a lot, maneuver dice are 4/short rest?

Nah, Rogue (or even bard) is the better choice.

[gfishfunk]

Instead of Rogue, I'd go Battlemaster for this build. If you're tanking, it's possible your Sneak Attack won't apply in many situations. A mandatory maneuver would be Goading Attack. Plus, Fighting Style and extra healing.

With Grappler active, sneak attack will go off repeatedly because he has advantage on attacks against the grapplee. However, that also nerfs his weapon from the normal barbarian fare of big and smashy.

I think Battlemaster Fighter, Grappler, and Rogue work together better than Barbarian, Grappler, and Rogue because grapple tends to end a rage.

[Douche]

The best way to tank is reckless attack and liberal use of the free talking on your turn.

Reckless Attack makes you a target, there isn't much reason to not target you (go bear or wolf).

Liberal use of talking on tour turn? Put creatures on blast. Absolutely give them some sick burns. The DM won'the have much of a choice but target the person who called the Hobgoblin the son of a woman... Well, I don't want to get kicked off giantitp but you get the picture.

Indubitably, I plan on roleplaying with a nordic accent, as an obnoxious pro wrestler-esque character (think The Rock or Stone Cold Steve Austin, only raised in Skyrim). He will be using every chance he gets to trash talk his opponents and talk about how he is the greatest grappler in all the lands.

Will probably take folk-hero as a background, or something like that. Maybe Noble, as it would explain how he has such great training (having been provided with the best opportunities and such, from birth) but I don't particularly need the proficiency that Noble gives you.


Instead of Rogue, I'd go Battlemaster for this build. If you're tanking, it's possible your Sneak Attack won't apply in many situations. A mandatory maneuver would be Goading Attack. Plus, Fighting Style and extra healing.

Grappler gives me advantage on my attacks to my grappled target, so if I don't bother pinning them, I get a sneak attack every turn. Alternatively, if I do pin him, I'll just have an ally stand next to me.

Anyway, I'm not too worried about getting sneak attack or doing damage. I just need 1 level in rogue to gain expertise. Maybe 2 if I want cunning action later on.



With Grappler active, sneak attack will go off repeatedly because he has advantage on attacks against the grapplee. However, that also nerfs his weapon from the normal barbarian fare of big and smashy.

I think Battlemaster Fighter, Grappler, and Rogue work together better than Barbarian, Grappler, and Rogue because grapple tends to end a rage.


I've read other posts on the grappler feat that would debate this. I tend to agree, but I asked my DM and he said he would allow grapple to keep rage up.

Again, I'm not too concerned with dealing damage, so I don't need a great weapon or anything... but I do wonder, what weapon would make sense for a wrestler to use? I said pro-wrestler earlier, but in context he'd probably be closer to a greco-roman wrestler. I figure a club would make the most sense, right? Something with bludgeoning damage, no doubt.

[HoarsHalberd]

With Grappler active, sneak attack will go off repeatedly because he has advantage on attacks against the grapplee. However, that also nerfs his weapon from the normal barbarian fare of big and smashy.

I think Battlemaster Fighter, Grappler, and Rogue work together better than Barbarian, Grappler, and Rogue because grapple tends to end a rage.

However barbarian big and smashy doesn't work with one of your hands being used to grapple.

[gfishfunk]

I've read other posts on the grappler feat that would debate this. I tend to agree, but I asked my DM and he said he would allow grapple to keep rage up.

Again, I'm not too concerned with dealing damage, so I don't need a great weapon or anything... but I do wonder, what weapon would make sense for a wrestler to use? I said pro-wrestler earlier, but in context he'd probably be closer to a greco-roman wrestler. I figure a club would make the most sense, right? Something with bludgeoning damage, no doubt.

As long as your DM is on board, you are golden.

Weapon-wise, I would stick with something with finesse for sneak attack damage. For reference: dagger, short sword, rapier, scimitar, whip.....sooooooo WHIP. That is probably the best, imo.

[gfishfunk]

However barbarian big and smashy doesn't work with one of your hands being used to grapple.

A 1-H warhammer is nice and smashy.

[Biggstick]

Something that no one has mentioned yet here is the Spirit Guardians Spell. This is a spell that is doing damage per turn, creates difficult terrain out to a 15' radius, and is friendly for your allies. It lasts for 10 minutes, which is plenty of time to do some work. It works against any enemy that steps within range, or creates an area that enemies will attempt to avoid. You'll also definitely draw enemy focus fire if you manage to get next to them.

There are a few ways you can gain the spell and take advantage of it.

Any Cleric: 5
Lore Bard: 6
Oath of the Crown Paladin: 9

With just a little spitballing, you could easily go Fighter level 1 and then pick up the requisite levels in Bard or Cleric and have access to the spell. Once you have access to Spirit Guardians, you can either continue with the Bard/Cleric or come back to Fighter. An upcast Spirit Guardians though is nothing to sneeze at, and could potentially draw even more fire from an enemy (effectively tanking)

[sumg]

Fighter - Defense Style
15 14 15 8 10 8
Or
15 10 15 8 14 8

These are the grapplers builds I toyed with

Depending on which route you are going.

15 10 15 8 14 8 heavy armor, single target route
Vuman - 16 10 16 8 14 8
Start with Chainmail, Shield, Tavern Brawler
Starting AC is 19, 13hp

Straight to 5

Action surge - yum
Second wind - more tanky

Battlemaster
Tripping Attack - absolutely needed

Good to have depending on your game
Disarming Attack - Disarm and kick (depends on your DM if he allows it as a free interaction or bonus action, even as a bonus, it call be deadly - kick the weapon away)
Menacing Attack - get in front and keep one away, or even better, grapple one, attack second one and keep second mob away.
Pushing Attack - combined with grapple (1/2 speed dragging), you can really send someone flying if there's good terrains to use, shoving someone into a pit or off a cliff = taking away one of their turns.
Goading Attack - make it attack up or it gets disadv, on attack.

ASI - STR or take feats as needed for your game
Shield Master - Optional grapple and prone on the same turn, general utilitarian, depends if you have another frontliner
Alert - initiative
Mobile - To get around
Heavy Armour Master - for the extra tankage
Lucky - A luxury
Resilient - Wis or Dex
Mage Slayer - Casters will hate you

Extra attack on 5, you can shove - grapple - attack on the same turn.

Now it's up to you, you can dip into any of the spellcasters that has enhance ability or enlarge/reduce. Bard 3 is good since it gives you expertise in athletics AND give you enhance ability.

Go back to Fighter for the ASI

Up to you after this point.



Barbarian Battlerager -
16 14 16 8 10 8
Start with 15ac 15hp

straight to 3, battlerager route
Spiked armor is 14+dex, cap or two, which is perfect at 14 dex capping at 16ac. When you are wearing spiked armour, you can melee att with 1d4+str as a bonus action (so this is like the inverse of the tavern brawler). And for each successful grapple, it's a flat 3 dmg to them.

Up to you at this point, you can go to 6 for reckless abandon, you get temp.hp = con mod each time you use reckless attack while raging.

The reason why you are going rager instead of bear is that you can attack with bonus action while both your hands are used and deal more dmg (those grapples add up)

Recommend using ASI for STR ASAP since you are two hand grappling and you want to succeed every time. Dip into rogue for expertise and sneak attack bonuses.

This route is feat light since everything is a luxury.



War/Nature/Light Cleric - Different kinds of tanks and depends on how your DM rule spike growth

Light is all about intercepting, so positioning yourself and your flaming sphere and start sending off that warding flare, you can't use heavy armour though, so don't go str.

Nature gets spike growth that you can just keep sending the mob into it and let them kill themselves or make them take a long route to get to your squishies. Intercept them and make them cry, this gets worse when you've a choke point and have someone constantly pushing them back (hello EB locks). And if your DM is generous, you can start dragging a hapless monster through the thorn for dmg.

War you just go nuts once you get spirit guardian, two hand grapples might become a thing for you at this point

Both Nature and War builds tend to favour melee (thus str), so grapple isn't an issue. Cleric is flexible since you can go shield or no shield, and if you add in UA feats, it gets silly.

[R.Shackleford]

However barbarian big and smashy doesn't work with one of your hands being used to grapple.

It only takes one hand to grapple.

[HoarsHalberd]

It only takes one hand to grapple.

Yeah I was focusing on the big. You can have one handed and smashy and grapple. Or you can go scorpion king and scimitar it up for grapple, sneak attack.

[djreynolds]

A tank draws the enemy's attention. And really any raging barbarian works. Or someone in plate.

But teamwork and positioning is also important. Knowing your roll in combat, and others knowing theirs.

A barbarian has damage reduction and the speed to get to where he needs to be and initiative bonuses as well. Blitzkrieg of sorts.

Almost the perfect tank.

[nolas85]

I think the best tank is a human barb totem bear. Human means you can take PAM + Sentinel once you hit 4th and you lock down an opponent at 10 feet. Bear allows you to function as 1.5 characters due to HP and resistance to the daily rigors of life. I have my personal issues with most of the things I've stated making this an awkward conversation but per RAW I don't think it gets much better (min/max wise).

That being said, I've had a ridiculous amount of fun playing a defensive paladin. Took the protection fighting style which I've found makes most enemies target me since they're at disadvantage as soon as they target someone else. I have the ability to deal rouge like damage with smite. I can heal about as well as our life cleric with LOH + spells. I can also make or break a combat with bless (one of the most amazing spells I've found). If you manage to get your hands on a ring of spell storing things become stupid really quick (as I've found).

[JumboWheat01]

Oath of the Crown Paladin is a very good "agro management" tank, what with Compelled Duel on tap, along with Champion's Challenge on their Channel Divinity.

Plus you can even sacrifice your own HP for a friendly's if their within 5 feet of you. And being a Paladin, you can heal it back up later.

I'd dare say the Oath of the Crown is the closest thing this edition to the Defender sub-set of 4e.

[nolas85]

I asked my DM and he said he would allow grapple to keep rage up.

Rage specifies that it ends if you don't attack a creature or take damage then it ends. If you've grappled someone, they're likely attacking you meaning that may meet the requirement. If not, grapple is an attack action meaning it should qualify as an attack. If all else fails, you can unarmed attack the opponent to maintain rage dealing 1+str+2 damage (at a minimum) since the erata specifies that it can represent a headbut, kick, elbow, etc.

[Sigreid]

I think tank is more a state of mind than abilities. To tank properly you need to be really aggressive. Every action you take should convey in clear terms to your opponents that "the guy in his nightie in the back may be easier to kill, but this steel clad psychopath is going to murder us all, and I just wet myself!" Of course that only works if the DM can put himself in the situation of being right in front of this maniac.

[nolas85]

I think tank is more a state of mind than abilities. To tank properly you need to be really aggressive.

By that logic, any striker should be a tank. I think tanks are more about being able to control the battlefield. In that regard, casters can be a sort of tank in that they can lock down opponents and set up circumstances for other characters to take advantage of. The limitation is that many of the control abilities of casters are indiscriminate meaning they will likely also hamper your own party. Thus, martial lock-down characters tend to make the best overall tanks.....again IMHO.

[Toofey]

The best way to tank is reckless attack and liberal use of the free talking on your turn.

Reckless Attack makes you a target, there isn't much reason to not target you (go bear or wolf).

Liberal use of talking on tour turn? Put creatures on blast. Absolutely give them some sick burns. The DM won'the have much of a choice but target the person who called the Hobgoblin the son of a woman... Well, I don't want to get kicked off giantitp but you get the picture.

YES, people forget free talking so much of the time, I try as much as possible to have all my characters talk scat as much as possible.

[Sigreid]

By that logic, any striker should be a tank. I think tanks are more about being able to control the battlefield. In that regard, casters can be a sort of tank in that they can lock down opponents and set up circumstances for other characters to take advantage of. The limitation is that many of the control abilities of casters are indiscriminate meaning they will likely also hamper your own party. Thus, martial lock-down characters tend to make the best overall tanks.....again IMHO.

Anyone can tank to the extent their hitpoints and armor class allow. My point was that in a game without taunts the tank can't just plant their feet and look menacing. Anyone tanking has to make themselves the obvious choice for a target. You do this by rushing people, screaming your battle cry, and generally not showing any restraint at all in your combat enthusiasm. The reason it works for the fighter and the barb is you should be able to put in their heads that other targets may be able to go down easier, but this is the guy that must be stopped, and we have to do it as quick as possible because we can't afford to waste energy on the others and not be able to finish with this guy.

[Aldarin]

If you get a Mirror of Life Trapping and a Manual of X, you can get either infinite AC or infinite HP. It's impractical, but very possible.

[ES Curse]

Tank require 2 functions:
1) Force enemies to focus their attention and fire on you
2) Have the HP, AC, and other defenses to survive said focus fire

I've always been more partial to Battlemaster than Barbarian for this myself. Plus, it synergizes really well with multiclasses.

[Slipperychicken]

Here's the thing about tanks, once the DM figures out that it's a waste of time trying to kill you, he won't try anymore. I've seen it time and again.

This is why a tank needs to make reasons for enemies to hit him. One way is to be a big threat himself. Ideally you want to stand between enemies and allies so that bad guys have a hard time getting around you, and this can take some thought to pull off.

Perhaps more importantly, you also want your "squishies" to make themselves less appealing targets: Staying out of harm's way (i.e. 40+ feet away from enemy melee, disengaging away if they get close), building to keep their AC and hit points at respectable levels, and taking cover, especially three-quarters cover whenever possible. Any idiot knows to target down the unarmored pencil-neck guy casting heal spells before hitting the burly gigantic warrior clad head-to-toe in metal armor. But if all the PCs are clad in hard-looking armor, none of them seem like easy prey, and they're all doing things that are bad for you, then aside from "geek the mage", it's not so easy to favor one over the others. Or at least, the difference isn't necessarily obvious enough that you'd waste an action running past a powerful warrior for it.



Liberal use of talking on tour turn? Put creatures on blast. Absolutely give them some sick burns. The DM won'the have much of a choice but target the person who called the Hobgoblin the son of a woman... Well, I don't want to get kicked off giantitp but you get the picture.

This also helps. Many DMs will have enemies target you if you can do a good job taunting or annoying them.

[NotADragonYet]

I like the Hill Dwarf/Dragon sorcerer combo. Makes you a nice HP tank with spellcasting, even though other classes may have better HD, you still get +2 HP per level

[James_the_Giant]

In my current weekend game I play a very capable "tank" character. The amount of punishment that he can take is really incredible. I play a Skilled Human Variant Life Domain Cleric. He wears heavy armor and a shield and took the Healer feat at lvl1. He started with a 14 CON so a decent, but not extremely high CON score. Since he has access to so much effective healing, a decent amount of HP, a high AC, and access to Bane he can tank very capably. He is also the group healer, but as the tank each time he a monster swings at him and misses that's healing he doesn't need to use. Also, as a bonus, between the cantrip Sacred Flame and the bonus action attacks from Spiritual Weapon, he can put out a decent amount of damage per round to help finish opponents either from melee or range. Granted this is a healer build, but he does function well as a party's tank. He would be even better if the party had some off heals from a bard or druid in the party.

[Seppo87]

He would be even better if the party had some off heals from a bard or druid in the party.No, you need to clearly be the healer, that's what gives the monster a reason to attack you even if your AC is so good.

[krunchyfrogg]

This is why a tank needs to make reasons for enemies to hit him. One way is to be a big threat himself. Ideally you want to stand between enemies and allies so that bad guys have a hard time getting around you, and this can take some thought to pull off.

Perhaps more importantly, you also want your "squishies" to make themselves less appealing targets: Staying out of harm's way (i.e. 40+ feet away from enemy melee, disengaging away if they get close), building to keep their AC and hit points at respectable levels, and taking cover, especially three-quarters cover whenever possible. Any idiot knows to target down the unarmored pencil-neck guy casting heal spells before hitting the burly gigantic warrior clad head-to-toe in metal armor. But if all the PCs are clad in hard-looking armor, none of them seem like easy prey, and they're all doing things that are bad for you, then aside from "geek the mage", it's not so easy to favor one over the others. Or at least, the difference isn't necessarily obvious enough that you'd waste an action running past a powerful warrior for it.



This also helps. Many DMs will have enemies target you if you can do a good job taunting or annoying them.
paladins have compelled duel. it helps

[Sigreid]

Here's the thing about tanks, once the DM figures out that it's a waste of time trying to kill you, he won't try anymore. I've seen it time and again.

That is questionable DMing. Mobs should be evaluating the situation in front of them with what they know. Not what the DM knows about what the party did to the last 10 battle groups.

[Talionis]

Barb x/Rogue 1 is very good. Don't forget that you can move your opponent in a grapple. This means anything that adds speed to you is helpful. If you have two free hands you can grapple two creatures, at once. Often times two creatures makes a big difference. Tavern Brawler maybe a good feat for you, since you can attack and initiate a grapple, and you may want to attack with one hand. I use a Battle Axe on my grappler because its versatile I can swing with two hands and then grapple with one when I want to.

Don't forget to have your Wizards use their Battlefield control to help funnel creatures to and through you.

[Sir cryosin]

This will be a one trick pony.A monk barbarian with Sentinel feat and the cantrip shocking grasped. This is how it works your using shocking grasped to do some damage and to take away his reaction. Monk lvs for bonus action dodge and bear-Barian for half damage if hit. Sentinel to keep them from leaving you all alone and feeling not wanted.


Edited: just a straight up monk is good to just for stunning strike.

[Mandragola]

If I was making a pure tank build then it would be a variant human with sentinel. Then pure barbarian or fighter up to at least 5th. Going with sword and board.

Sentinel is the thing that makes a tank a tank, because it gives the mooks a reason to attack him and not someone else.

Then either rage for toughness or a fighter with very high AC and battlemaster manoeuvres (notably reposte and menacing strike) to keep you alive.

A high constitution kind of goes without saying. Good strength too. A fighter can have a better will save, which will help keep them from running off. Various fighting styles might work, though I'd go for +1 AC.