Arcane fusion help

[Nosta]

i'm picking out spells and i cam across AF and i love it, problem is i'm not sure what would be some cool 1st and 4th level spells to combine
and i get some ideas?

[Bobby Baratheon]

Well, that depends on what you want to do, really. Do you want to level a battlefied? Debuff an enemy into the ground? Buff yourself/your allies? It really depends on playstyle.

One rather boring-but-practical combination is true strike + touch spell. If you absolutely need a spell to connect, that's an efficient way to do it.

That said, it is very boring and definitely on the low end of what you can do with Arcane Fusion. You could do worse, however, than what is essentially a basically-guaranteed-to-hit 4th level spell in a 5th level slot.

[Nosta]

Well, that depends on what you want to do, really. Do you want to level a battlefied? Debuff an enemy into the ground? Buff yourself/your allies? It really depends on playstyle.

One rather boring-but-practical combination is true strike + touch spell. If you absolutely need a spell to connect, that's an efficient way to do it.

That said, it is very boring and definitely on the low end of what you can do with Arcane Fusion. You could do worse, however, than what is essentially a basically-guaranteed-to-hit 4th level spell in a 5th level slot.

i like both to buff my self
as well as to do massive damage to my foes

i am gish so self buffing is my thing

[torrasque666]

I've gotten great mileage out of using Sanctum Spell and Searing Spell on Lesser Orb of Fire (keeps it as a first level spell) and Sanctum Spell on Arcane Fusion. The trick requires the Rapid Metamagic feat to work though. And there are some debates as to whether or not Sanctum Spell actually works for this purpose. Do note that this may cause flying DMGs.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I've gotten great mileage out of using Sanctum Spell and Searing Spell on Lesser Orb of Fire (keeps it as a first level spell) and Sanctum Spell on Arcane Fusion. The trick requires the Rapid Metamagic feat to work though. And there are some debates as to whether or not Sanctum Spell actually works for this purpose. Do note that this may cause flying DMGs.

I don't know if that's worthy of book flying :smalltongue: It's not all that insane, after all. The true insanity is when you start applying metamagic (twinning/repeating, for example) to Arcane Fusion itself and churning out absurd amounts of spells per turn. Especially in conjunction with metamagic on the base spells. Imagine, if you will, a twinned/repeated arcane fusion on the humble scorching ray (split rayed, searing spelled and empowered) + whatever first level spell you want. It's not quite as hard to do as it sounds, and is a great way of annihilating everything around you and making the rest of the party hate you.

For the OP - Enervation is always a fun spell to play with. Debuffing your enemies helps you as much as buffing yourself does (if not more), and enervation gives a pretty much across the board debuff. Combine it with a ray of enfeeblement for lulz and watch the bad guy beatstick become a lot less intimidating.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

Enlarge person and extended haste is a pretty good combo for buffing. True strike/touch has already been mentioned. Shield + any good 4th level spell is pretty nice combo, allowing you to get a top spell off as well as grabbing some protection for yourself. If you have lots of immediate action 4th level spells, it can be a good way to circumvent that - your turn one could be shield/ruin delver's fortune from arcane fusion, and then greater mirror image as your swift, and then another 4th level as your immediate. For a gish, I look at arcane fusion as a way to get two spells I need to get out turn 1 of combat out in turn 1. So pick a first level spell - shield, enlarge, magic missile, etc, that you really want to cast turn 1, and a spell that equals 4th level. That is a really powerful option, btw. If you have some form of metamagic reduction + metamagic specialist + heroics + repeat spell, for example, you can have just about any two feat combo you want, ready for use on turn 2.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Enlarge person and extended haste is a pretty good combo for buffing. True strike/touch has already been mentioned. Shield + any good 4th level spell is pretty nice combo, allowing you to get a top spell off as well as grabbing some protection for yourself. If you have lots of immediate action 4th level spells, it can be a good way to circumvent that - your turn one could be shield/ruin delver's fortune from arcane fusion, and then greater mirror image as your swift, and then another 4th level as your immediate. For a gish, I look at arcane fusion as a way to get two spells I need to get out turn 1 of combat out in turn 1. So pick a first level spell - shield, enlarge, magic missile, etc, that you really want to cast turn 1, and a spell that equals 4th level. That is a really powerful option, btw. If you have some form of metamagic reduction + metamagic specialist + heroics + repeat spell, for example, you can have just about any two feat combo you want, ready for use on turn 2.

I don't think you can use a swift action and an immediate action in the same turn, IIRC.

[daremetoidareyo]

true casting on yourself and grim revenge (BOVD) on them?

if you have sanctum spell, arcane fusioning fuse arms (2nd down to 1st) with grim revenge leaves your humanoid opponents handless.

[torrasque666]

I don't know if that's worthy of book flying :smalltongue: It's not all that insane, after all. The true insanity is when you start applying metamagic (twinning/repeating, for example) to Arcane Fusion itself and churning out absurd amounts of spells per turn. Especially in conjunction with metamagic on the base spells. Imagine, if you will, a twinned/repeated arcane fusion on the humble scorching ray (split rayed, searing spelled and empowered) + whatever first level spell you want. It's not quite as hard to do as it sounds, and is a great way of annihilating everything around you and making the rest of the party hate you.

For the OP - Enervation is always a fun spell to play with. Debuffing your enemies helps you as much as buffing yourself does (if not more), and enervation gives a pretty much across the board debuff. Combine it with a ray of enfeeblement for lulz and watch the bad guy beatstick become a lot less intimidating.
You are aware that my method basically means that anything that isn't immune to death by HP damage is dead right? Which also means that even most physical obstacles are no more. Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion is essentially as many 1st level spells as you want as a standard action.

[tyckspoon]

I don't think you can use a swift action and an immediate action in the same turn, IIRC.

Technically, no, but you can usually use an immediate to interrupt another turn, so you do Swift - end turn - Immediate (borrowing your next turn's Swift.) It pre-uses your next Swift, but if you need/want that immediate effect up, you can. (Ruin Delver's Fortune is about the only thing I can think of where this might be a good choice, tho.)

[Big Fau]

I don't think you can use a swift action and an immediate action in the same turn, IIRC.

You can. Using an immediate action during a round when you used your swift consumes your next turn's swift.

[Bobby Baratheon]

You are aware that my method basically means that anything that isn't immune to death by HP damage is dead right? Which also means that even most physical obstacles are no more. Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion is essentially as many 1st level spells as you want as a standard action.

I may or may not have not read your post all that thoroughly :smallredface:

[Anthrowhale]

.. Sanctum Spell on Arcane Fusion. ... And there are some debates as to whether or not Sanctum Spell actually works for this purpose.

I'm not aware of any plausible interpretation of the rules under which this works. Arcane Fusion has errata saying that the adjusted level of metamagic spells should be used. Sanctum Arcane Fusion takes a fifth level slot so it's ineligible for Arcane Fusion.

[torrasque666]

I'm not aware of any plausible interpretation of the rules under which this works. Arcane Fusion has errata saying that the adjusted level of metamagic spells should be used. Sanctum Arcane Fusion takes a fifth level slot so it's ineligible for Arcane Fusion.
If you are not in your Sanctum, it's adjucated as a level lower.
A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. So it's modified level is 4 rather than 5. There's no way in hell it was intended to be used as a -1 metamagic, but on PCs its the only way it can really be used. Not adjusted spell slot, but adjusted spell level. While cast out of a 5th level slot its effectively a 4th level spell if cast outside of your sanctum.

[Anthrowhale]

... While cast out of a 5th level slot ...

This is why it does not work. You need a 5th level slot for Sanctum Arcane Fusion. Arcane Fusion can only cast something fitting into a 4th level slot so it cannot cast Sanctum Arcane Fusion.

While the final level of the cast spell may be 4th, that isn't the relevant test. If it was, you could freely cast an Extended Persistent Ocular Charm Monster which is a 4th level spell needing a 13th level slot.

With Acorn of Far Travel (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) it is possible for a PC to benefit from Sanctum Spell due to the clause:


As long as you carry the acorn ..., you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy

[torrasque666]

This is why it does not work. You need a 5th level slot for Sanctum Arcane Fusion. Arcane Fusion can only cast something fitting into a 4th level slot so it cannot cast Sanctum Arcane Fusion.

While the final level of the cast spell may be 4th, that isn't the relevant test. If it was, you could freely cast an Extended Persistent Ocular Charm Monster which is a 4th level spell needing a 13th level slot.

With Acorn of Far Travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) it is possible for a PC to benefit from Sanctum Spell due to the clause:
The relevant clause of Arcane Fusion is Adjusted Spell Level. For all intents and purposes its a 4th level spell. Just like a Heightened Spell is actually a spell of Xth level, but if you used Practical Metamagic it would be cast out of an X-1 spell slot. But it'd still be a Xth level spell. Once again, Arcane Fusion doesn't give two squints about actual spell level, just the modified one. Of which Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion's is 4th.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A sensible basic use of arcane fusion is true strike + orb of force, which is nearly guaranteed to hit, on pretty much every target.

[Anthrowhale]

The relevant clause of Arcane Fusion is Adjusted Spell Level. For all intents and purposes its a 4th level spell.

Sanctum Spell never changes the level of a spell because it talks about "effective spell level" rather than actual spell level. Sanctum Spell changes the effects of a spell.


... effective spell level ... effective spell level ... All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.


So, Sanctum Arcane Fusion is a 5th level spell which has an effective level of either 4 or 6 depending on circumstances.

Eligibility for Arcane Fusion is dependent on the actual level, not the effective level. Furthermore, Sanctum Spell only alters the effects of the spell. Eligibility for Arcane Fusion must be decided before casting the spell, hence changes to the effects are irrelevant for eligibility.

A separate argument relates to Extended Persistent Ocular Charm Monster. The SRD says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats)

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
So Extended Persistent Ocular Charm Monster operates as a 4th level spell but is prepared and cast as a 13th level spell. Can Arcane Fusion cast it?

The relevant errata is here (https://www.scribd.com/document/72512652/D-D-3-5-Complete-Mage-Errata) which states:


If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level ... for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.

In this context, "adjusted spell level" applies to the spell level that you cast at, not the spell level that the spell operates at since every metamagic feat states an adjustment for the purpose of casting. Consequently, Extended Persistent Ocular Charm Monster is ineligible for Arcane Fusion.

To recap: Eligibility for Arcane Fusion is determined by the adjustment to the spell level a metamagic spell is cast at, not the original or effective spell level. In the case of Sanctum Arcane Fusion that is level 5.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Sanctum Spell never changes the level of a spell because it talks about "effective spell level" rather than actual spell level. Sanctum Spell changes the effects of a spell.But Sanctum spells fit in lower level slots. So where do you draw the line on what is an "effect"? Why is an adjusted spell level for AF not able to "see" the lower spell level, when a wizard preparing a sanctum metamagicked spell is?

Also concerning the AF errata: this seems to indicate that free metamagic keeps the adjusted spell level the same as the normal spell level. Since all decent casters use free metamagic anyway, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

[Anthrowhale]

But Sanctum spells fit in lower level slots.
Definitely not.

A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.