Items/Locations that grant feats - prereqs?

[schreier]

If the item/location does not address the prereq issue, must you fulfill it?

I'm looking at the Nether Scroll that grants Craft Construct - which normally requires Craft Arms and Armor ...

"The nether scrolls are divided into five chapters, each covering a different aspect of the Art. A character who manages to read all ten scrolls that make up a chapter gains an additional benefit whose nature depends on the topic studied. The chapters of the nether scrolls and the benefits they provide are detailed below.

"Maior Creare (Major Creations): Craft Construct as a bonus feat; any golem or other construct created has maximum hit points."

Based on RAW - I think you get it without prereqs?

[Troacctid]

If it doesn't say you can ignore the prerequisites, then you can't ignore the prerequisites. You will gain the feat, but be unable to use it.

[Necroticplague]

No, you don't have to meet the prerequisites, because it's a bonus feat. Generally, you don't have to meet the prerequisites for bonus feats. The fighter needing to qualify for it's bonus feat is an exception. Here's what the MM has to say on bonus feats:

Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. So you can still use a bonus feat you don't have the prerequisites for.

[Khedrac]

No, you don't have to meet the prerequisites, because it's a bonus feat. Generally, you don't have to meet the prerequisites for bonus feats. The fighter needing to qualify for it's bonus feat is an exception. Here's what the MM has to say on bonus feats:
So you can still use a bonus feat you don't have the prerequisites for.

On the contrary, by RAW unless it specifies that you don't need to meet the pre-requistes to use it then you have to. The fact that the Monster Manual specifically exempts creature bonus feats from this is a strong indicator that said exemption is necessary; see also rangers (who get the exemption) and rogues (who don't).
One of the more frequently listed RAW disfunctions is that monks do not get the pre-requisite waiver for their bonus feats.

However, do I think location-granted feats are meant to ignore pre-requisites? - Yes I do (that said I don't particularly like location-feats - on the boards they seem to be mainly used to abuse them rather than to be interesting places) so I would think that RAI is ignore, but RAW they do not allow use without pre-requisites.

[Necroticplague]

On the contrary, by RAW unless it specifies that you don't need to meet the pre-requistes to use it then you have to. The fact that the Monster Manual specifically exempts creature bonus feats from this is a strong indicator that said exemption is necessary; see also rangers (who get the exemption) and rogues (who don't). That's the general rule for feats. The specific rule for bonus feats, as quoted above, indicates that they can be used without prerequisites. Specific of 'bonus feat' trumps general of 'feat'. This is relevant because the material OP is asking about explicitly gives a bonus feat. The relevant rule in MM isn't just for racial bonus feats, it's for all bonus feats.

Reading the relevant section more fully also gives even more on the subject, at leat by implication.

The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites. (Bold for emphasis section)
The implication being that you can have a feat without it's prerequisites if it is a bonus feat.


One of the more frequently listed RAW disfunctions is that monks do not get the pre-requisite waiver for their bonus feats.

Er, then maybe I'm reading Monk wrong, but they seem to have that waiver already

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Unless you want to get into pedantics of saying "yes, they can select the feat, but they can't actually use it." In which case, you're still wrong, because my earlier quoted section of the MM means you can use bonus feats you don't qualify for.

[Troacctid]

In context, the passage you're quoting is instructing us on how to read a monster entry, and defines the bonus feats it's referring to as the ones marked with a superscript B in a monster's statblock. Bonus feats that are not marked with a B—like those of the example lich, ghost, aboleth wizard, or half-dragon, whose bonus feats all lack the mark—are not subject to that rule.

[Necroticplague]

In context, the passage you're quoting is instructing us on how to read a monster entry, and defines the bonus feats it's referring to as the ones marked with a superscript B in a monster's statblock. Bonus feats that are not marked with a B—like those of the example lich, ghost, aboleth wizard, or half-dragon, whose bonus feats all lack the mark—are not subject to that rule.

Not sure how you're getting that from the text. Yes, it says bonus feats are sometimes marked with a B (unless you believe that section to be an appositive statement). But the following rules never say "these bonus feats", "those bonus feats", "marked bonus feats", or anything else that would indicate they aren't talking about bonus feat in general.

[Troacctid]

Context is important. You probably wouldn't argue that a player character can reassign their feats, but that's what the rule you quoted says, right before the part you highlighted.

Book and topic precedence are also relevant. The chapter on feats in the Player's Handbook is the more relevant source for a player character's feats than the chapter on reading monster entries in the Monster Manual.

[schreier]

It seems like it is not clearly covered ... that there are rules in general for bonus feats, and feats - but not specific to items that grant feats.

I believe that it might be appropriate to rule that, in situations where prereqs are not specifically mentioend:

If the item/location has a generic list (such as "select a luck feat" or "select an item creation feat" - you must have the prereqs

If the item/location has a specific list ("Skill Focus (Climbing) or Agile Climber) - you may select the feat without the prereqs

If the item/location lists just a single feat ("Craft Construct") - you may select the feat without the prereqs

Does that seem reasonable? It feels like they would say "You must have the prereqs" if that was the case, when there are specific feats listed.

This seems to be reinforced by the fact that some feat granting locations mention prereqs (Otuyugh Hole says "The character must still meet the normal prerequisite for the feat chosen") Granted - different books may have inconsistent phrasings.

[Duke of Urrel]

There are some locations that grant special temporary feats. I am thinking of the planar touchstones, which are discussed on pages 153 to 186 of the Planar Handbook v. 3.5 (2004). None of these special feats have any prerequisites listed, except of course that you must visit the appropriate site and perform the appropriate actions.

[animewatcha]

Without such cheese things as dark chaos shuffle, there any way to get the planar touchstone base ability besides the Planar Touchstone Feat?

[Troacctid]

Without such things as dark chaos shuffle, there any way to get the planar touchstone base ability besides the Planar Touchstone Feat?

Yes, the Touchstone feat from Sandstorm.

[animewatcha]

Okay, aside from that one which is almost essentially the same thing?

[SangoProduction]

Yes, the Touchstone feat from Sandstorm.

I admit....I laughed out loud.

[Troacctid]

Hey, no joke! It's a different feat with different prerequisites.