Mage Hand - Help Action

[Corpus]

I have looked around and didn't see any threads that brought this up specifically.

Starting a new campaign from 1st level with a player that would like to use non-damaging spells only. At low levels this will leave few options during combat. We had an idea and of course as the DM I can rule how I like, though I wanted to get others opinion on what they thought.

The thought is to use Mage Hand and the Help Action to give Advantage to an ally.


Mage Hand
A spectral, floating hand appears at a point you choose within range. The hand lasts for the duration or until you dismiss it as an action. The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you or if you cast this spell again.

You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it.

The hand can’t attack, activate magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds..


Help Action
You can lend your aid to another creature in the completion of a task. When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn.

Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.

Now specifically speaking (raw) you have to be within 5' to help an ally this way.
Though in 5e the Help Action to distract a foe does not require an attack roll, it just works.
Fluff wise, a hand buzzing around a persons head, throwing (dropping) dirt in their eyes, poking their ear, moving in their hair, etc is pretty distracting.
Think of anyone you know that loses their mind when a bug flies in their face or hair.

Since the Wizard still has to use their Action to direct the hand the only benefit is being able to "Help" from 30' away as opposed to 5' away.
The draw back, he also has to spend a round casting the Mage hand. As he can't Cast and Help in the same round (2 actions).
So while a "normal" Wizard could have dropped 2 enemies with Fire Bolt or Chill Touch already, this Wizard has taken 2 rounds to Help an ally and you still have to wait for the allies turn for the benefit.

Long story short, would you allow Mage Hand to perform the Help Action to give an ally Advantage?

[Calen]

If it was my game I would allow it. The Mastermind archetype lets you do the same thing with the help action (plus makes it a bonus action IIRC)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sure, seems reasonable. I wouldn't even make you wait a turn.

[RickAllison]

RAW: I didn't see anything in the text to prohibit it.

RAI: I don't see too much that conflicts. Does anyone have the text handy for Mage Hand Legerdemain? If it doesn't step on that ability, I don't think it devalues it any. Definitely doesn't step on the Mastermind's toes enough to care (he doesn't need to have the spell on, can do it as a bonus action, etc.).

RAF: Passes fine.

RAL (Rules as Logic): You have a hand that can exert up to 10 pounds of force. That is more than enough to slow someone's leg or arm (not enough to prevent it, but enough to provide an opening in their guard). I say being able to Help makes sense.

So in every form of the rules I can think of, it passes.

[Tanarii]

Clearly not RAW or RAI, since that's already specifically a 13th level class feature for the Arcane Trickster.

[Corpus]

Clearly not RAW or RAI, since that's already specifically a 13th level class feature for the Arcane Trickster.

I don't believe it falls under RAW.
As for the 13th level class feature.
That allows you to do it as a Bonus Action, and to give yourself Advantage.
This use would not allow either of those. There by not stepping on the toes of any existing class abilities or making them useless.

I do however appreciate your opinion on the subject, and will take it into consideration.

[Tanarii]

Well considering that opinion was wrong ... :smallredface: /grumble /grumble

Yeah, AT 13 ability is a different (and more powerful) thing. My mistake.

[ClintACK]

I think this should work -- especially since it costs the Player his first round action to help in the second and third rounds.

If I were advising the Player, I'd point to Minor Illusion, though. Throwing a 5' inky-black cloud over the enemy's head should work as a "help" action as well. (Or the sound of someone in plate mail charging and screaming?)

Minor Illusion has the potential to be more interesting/more flavorful than a more mechanical "I use the Mage Hand to provide advantage to the Rogue this turn."

[Tanarii]

If I were advising the Player, I'd point to Minor Illusion, though. Throwing a 5' inky-black cloud over the enemy's head should work as a "help" action as well. (Or the sound of someone in plate mail charging and screaming?) Doesnt work. Minor Illusion can only create visuals of objects. This one I'm sure of, as it was just backed up by he latest Sage Advice.

Edit: besides, putting any illusionary object around an opponents head would automatically make them interact with it, allowing them to instantly see through it.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Doesnt work. Minor Illusion can only create visuals of objects. This one I'm sure of, as it was just backed up by he latest Sage Advice.

I haven't seen the sage advice, but the opening sentence of Minor Illusion in the PHB is "You create a sound or an image of an object within range that lasts for the duration." Since there's no Ghost Sound in the RAW, this is the only spell short of Major Image that can create illusory sounds.

[Tanarii]

I meant the only visuals it can create are of objects. Poorly worded for the loss.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I meant the only visuals it can create are of objects. Poorly worded for the loss.

Ah, yeah I can see what you were going for now.

For what it's worth, I once had a DM rule that I couldn't use Mage Hand to Help as a bonus action (via Mage Hand Legerdemain; I was a 4th-leve arcane trickster at the time) on the grounds that that would be my 13th-level feature. I think that's fair, even if it's not strictly RAW.

[ClintACK]

True. So make it a blindfold or a hood -- that's an object.

I'd agree that the will save should be advantaged or at a decreased DC (or even auto-succeeds), but those address the question of whether the target is *blinded* by a cantrip.

The question for the purpose of this thread is whether the illusion of a blindfold, for the split-second in which the target notices it before disbelieving, is enough to give advantage to one attack by the caster's ally.

[Tanarii]

it's revealed to be an illusion as soon as it's interacted with. There's no point in casting it directly on an enemy.

Creating illusionary cover for your allies is a different matter, so long as they are careful not to interact with it while using it. Edit: IMO it would functionally be concealment in that case. Of course, if you get a strict DM (or are one), it might just rule it cover that provides no benefit. It still might cause the enemy to change their tactics though. Move to a different position for a better attack, or choose a different target.

[lord4571]

For what it's worth, I once had a DM rule that I couldn't use Mage Hand to Help as a bonus action (via Mage Hand Legerdemain; I was a 4th-leve arcane trickster at the time) on the grounds that that would be my 13th-level feature. I think that's fair, even if it's not strictly RAW.

I would agree depending on what you were doing
the arcane trickster 13th ability allows you to take a bonus action to give you advantage (which gives you more control on when you sneak attack). it doesn't do the help action.

the help action with RAW would allow you to use mage hand to help others though. i would say your gm ruled this correctly if you tried to help yourself with you own mage hand.

example: what if you were a 3 armed creature? could you use the help action on yourself to then get advantage on your next attack? no and that's how mage hand works for everyone except a 13th level rouge arcane trickster. he says f the rules i got jazz hands.

[RSP]

I would agree depending on what you were doing
the arcane trickster 13th ability allows you to take a bonus action to give you advantage (which gives you more control on when you sneak attack). it doesn't do the help action.

the help action with RAW would allow you to use mage hand to help others though. i would say your gm ruled this correctly if you tried to help yourself with you own mage hand.

example: what if you were a 3 armed creature? could you use the help action on yourself to then get advantage on your next attack? no and that's how mage hand works for everyone except a 13th level rouge arcane trickster. he says f the rules i got jazz hands.

The issue with the AT, I believe, is they get to use MH as a BA already. So if MH can do the Help Action, the AT can do that as a BA starting at level 3. This would appear to invalidate the level 13 AT ability which specifically allows Advantage on Attack rolls with MHL BA.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: I use my Bonus Action to Turn Unthread.