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Frywick
2016-07-24, 05:55 PM
Is an acre to big of a sum of land to give to the party even if most of the land is mountainous and hilly save for a few spots thus making building more of a hassle? I wanted to give my party land as a reward for completing a long and difficult quest but I'm unsure if its too much. The land is also tainted so the party would have to do more in order to grow anything in the spots where the soil isn't just rocky but actual dirt

The Glyphstone
2016-07-24, 05:59 PM
One acre would be a tiny parcel of land, and practically unusable if it's also mountainous terrain. If you want the reward to have meaning, a forty-acre parcel (and a mule) would be more substantial while still not being excessive.

If you're not sure how much that is specifically, one acre is roughly 75% of a football field. Plenty of land to build a house and a small subsistence farm, but beyond irrelevance for an adventuring party.

Red Fel
2016-07-24, 06:02 PM
Is an acre to big of a sum of land to give to the party even if most of the land is mountainous and hilly save for a few spots thus making building more of a hassle? I wanted to give my party land as a reward for completing a long and difficult quest but I'm unsure if its too much. The land is also tainted so the party would have to do more in order to grow anything in the spots where the soil isn't just rocky but actual dirt

First off, context. Is this a combat-oriented game like D&D, where the PCs would rather be out adventuring than clearing brush? Or is it a more medieval style game, where land ownership is a huge deal? Without that, it's hard to say whether a gift of land - any amount of land - is too much.

That said, did you really want to give them land? I mean, it doesn't actually sound like it. Consider the following.

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would probably have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

At that point, I don't think anyone would want the pancakes even if you paid them to eat them. It sounds like you decided to give the PCs some land, immediately regretted the idea, and then decided to make the land so undesirable that the party would reject it.

It's a simple question. If you want the party to have land, give them land. If you want the land to be part of some sort of quest (e.g. clear the gremlins away to secure it, or till the soil and discover the hidden labyrinth below) then it's fine to make the land a bit more complicated, but otherwise just make it a simple transaction.

As a rule, I try to avoid rewards with strings attached, unless those strings lead to additional plot or rewards. If it's just a reward, just give them the land; if you're uncomfortable with the amount, give them less, or more, until you feel better. But don't tack on all of these problems unless you really want them to reject the reward altogether, in which case, why give it to them in the first place?

The Glyphstone
2016-07-24, 06:04 PM
Consider the following.

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would probably have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

At that point, I don't think anyone would want the pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Can I sig this?

Winter_Wolf
2016-07-24, 06:06 PM
An acre isn't much land even if it's all arable. Like, really not much. 660x66 feet, according to quick googling.

Keepin mind I'm from the US, and Alaska in particular. I grew up on ten acres, for a point of reference. Our place now is on about 0.23-0.25 of an acre, and it feels claustrophobic even though it's pretty much all useable to some extent.

Tiktakkat
2016-07-24, 06:17 PM
Too big for what purpose?

To put up a personal residence?
No, that should be sufficient.

To put up an estate, with room for followers, training halls, labs, libraries, and such?
Barely, particularly since you describe the area as mountainous and difficult to build on.
On its own it would qualify as a garden plot for a family that would provide vegetables, but that is on decent land.

For a farm sufficient to feed the PCs?
Not even close.
120 acres was expected to support a family, but again, that is on reasonably good land.
Up in rough terrain you would need 3-5 times that at least, even more if the land is tainted.

So how much do you expect the PCs to be doing with this land?

goto124
2016-07-24, 06:17 PM
Why are you giving them land in the first place? What is the context? What sort of game is this?

Fiery Diamond
2016-07-24, 06:27 PM
I get the feeling that you don't actually know how big an acre is and that you grew up in a tiny city apartment. Hopefully the others' explanations are sufficient - the pancake thing isn't an exaggeration; it's pretty accurate.

bulbaquil
2016-07-24, 06:38 PM
An acre is smaller than a football field (either type of football).

Giving them an acre of poor-quality land is, if anything, a back-handed insult rather than a reward, unless it's to build a house or something rather than to start a farm (let alone a barony). If you want to give them a farm, especially on poor-quality land, start thinking in terms of hundreds of acres. If you want to give them a barony or fiefdom, start thinking in terms of, at the very least, dozens of square miles.

ExLibrisMortis
2016-07-24, 06:39 PM
http://www.christybuckley.com/bweeng_country_cottage/cottage_one_acre.jpg (http://christybuckley.com/bweeng_country_cottage/one_acre_cottage.html)

That's apparently a one-acre plot. Small for a farm (especially in intensive western agriculture), but a nice garden (especially in densely-populated western cities).

Gnoman
2016-07-24, 06:44 PM
I get the feeling that you don't actually know how big an acre is and that you grew up in a tiny city apartment. Hopefully the others' explanations are sufficient - the pancake thing isn't an exaggeration; it's pretty accurate.

The pancake metaphpor seriously underscores just how small an acre is. When square, an acre is roughly 205 feet by 205 feet. Using standard D&D notation, this is 41 squares on a side. 4 Meteor Swarm spells would be enough to cover the entire thing. A running horse can cross it in a single round. A longbow is barely penalized for the distance. Acres are tiny plots of land unless you're in a crowded city.

Red Fel
2016-07-24, 06:56 PM
Can I sig this?

Do it, Rockapella.

But yeah. An acre of land is more symbolic than functional. Great for building a house, or perhaps a smithy or kennel or somesuch. And a necessary prerequisite to being considered one of the landed gentry. But not some monumental gift, at least not in the middle of a fantastic wilderness, and certainly not if laced with blowfish poison rendered mostly unusable by geography and contamination.

RickAllison
2016-07-24, 06:56 PM
On the other hand, this would be plenty of land for an estate on stilts. Really, all you need to make it a long-lasting structure is a wizard. Move Earth to dig out large post-holes for the foundation, fill those with stones, Fabricate to merge those loose stones into solid stone pillars, Wall of Stone to create the floors, then build it up from there. What's more is they don't even have to worry about ground-based vermin by that method!

Vinyadan
2016-07-24, 07:20 PM
If you're into gardening, an acre is a lot. If you're into surviving on the land or making a business out of it, then it's nothing. If you're in a city and possess an acre of building area, you are quite wealthy. If you are in Paris, either you are an Arab prince, or I have no idea. Remember that a parcel of land can acquire a much higher value if certain conditions are met, like cities expanding, roads being built, administration changing its seat, water channels being made available, and so on. If your players were to work hard, given what adventurers can do, they could end up creating a metropolis around their plot, which would actually be pretty cool, if they are into admin games. Then you can play Monopoly instead of D&D ;)

goto124
2016-07-24, 07:26 PM
Also, OP didn't say it's DnD. This is a system-agnostic section. Also, please don't dismiss any game that isn't DnD.

The Glyphstone
2016-07-24, 07:40 PM
Also, OP didn't say it's DnD. This is a system-agnostic section. Also, please don't dismiss any game that isn't DnD.

I don't think that it was a dismissal, just pointing out that D&D is not a game about urban property management, but Monopoly is.

Blackhawk748
2016-07-24, 07:51 PM
As others have said, 1 acre aint a lot. I mean, you can have a decent sized house on it, but thats about it. And again, mimicing others, what game is this, as thats important.

For scale i grew up on an 80 acre farm, which is fairly roomy, but at no point would i call it huge. Hell id say you could barely fit a Thorp on there once you add in the space needed for agriculture, especially if they have livestock. Animals take up a fair amount of room.

Jay R
2016-07-24, 07:54 PM
Until you tell us location, purpose, character level, and character goals, it's a tough question to answer.

It's certainly not enough land to build a farm to support even one person, if that helps.

veti
2016-07-24, 08:07 PM
I believe that the reason an acre is the size it is, is because it was originally supposed to be the amount of land that one farmer and one ox could plough in a day.

Approximately, of course. And bearing in mind that the actual answer to that would vary enormously based on soil type, soil quality, elevation, temperature, and how fit and well fed both the ox and the farmer were to begin with.

So in farming terms, it's tiny. One day's work.

In building terms, it's a fair-sized plot. You could build a very nice home on that, plus outbuildings, and possibly have enough room left over for a tennis court. Within a city it would be a lot of land. In the middle of nowhere? - it's nothing. You can buy land in Texas - right now, today - for $100 an acre or less.

Necroticplague
2016-07-24, 08:16 PM
For what purposes? How many people are in the party? For the purposes of making any kind of living or farming, that's basically nothing. It's enough to build a house for an extended family with a workshop or two, but not much more. Considering the land is stated to be of incredibly low quality (mountainous, rocky, and tainted), and it doesn't seem too much by any stretch. Heck, depending on context, this can be downright insulting, the kind of thing a landed noble might use to ensure its obvious which of their vassals was liked the least.

Milo v3
2016-07-24, 08:37 PM
I've had players will whole countries and ownership of things like a quarter of a plane of existence, depends on how it's handled.

Tiktakkat
2016-07-24, 09:49 PM
I believe that the reason an acre is the size it is, is because it was originally supposed to be the amount of land that one farmer and one ox could plough in a day.

Approximately, of course. And bearing in mind that the actual answer to that would vary enormously based on soil type, soil quality, elevation, temperature, and how fit and well fed both the ox and the farmer were to begin with.

So in farming terms, it's tiny. One day's work.[/

Yep.
Including the qualifications.
Only note to add is that a farmer can have more than one ox, and thus be able to plow more than one acre in a day.
(And there are archaic measures for that if people want to look them up.)


I've had players will whole countries and ownership of things like a quarter of a plane of existence, depends on how it's handled.

As it happens, my current campaign is about owning a kingdom.
So yes, D&D can be about owning land.
And yes, it depends a lot on how it's handled, as it can easily devolve into bookkeeping with no adventuring.

Hytheter
2016-07-24, 09:50 PM
You can buy land in Texas - right now, today - for $100 an acre or less.

Wait seriously? I'm almost tempted to buy an acre or two just for the sake of saying I own land in Texas.

Vitruviansquid
2016-07-24, 09:54 PM
What are you afraid that a party will use land for to break the game?

If we're talking about "is a +20 longsword too much pluses for one longsword to give to the party?" then we're thinking they'll take the longsword and trivialize at-level enemies' defenses or make the wielder of the sword take too much spotlight, and so on.

But if you're talking about giving the players land that they will then have to un-taint, it almost seems like the more land the better. Give them one thousand acres of tainted, mountainous land. They can have an adventure to find what's responsible for tainting the land and cleansing it, and then when they're done with the quest, let them build their homes on the land. Considering they'll normally be out adventuring, it really doesn't matter how huge the rogue wants to make his mansion, it won't really come up in the campaign. And if it does, it's almost like the bigger his mansion, the better, because then you could have entire scenes play out in it when the players are defending it from attackers. If the players want to have people work the land and collect the revenue from it, you can arbitrarily set how much revenue they get from it by making vague statements about how much of the land is unfit for agriculture, or how much of it is still messed up from the after-effects of the taint.

I really can't think of how this land-as-quest-reward scheme can backfire.

veti
2016-07-24, 10:34 PM
Wait seriously? I'm almost tempted to buy an acre or two just for the sake of saying I own land in Texas.

Oops, sorry - the best I can find right now is 10 acres for $2000 (http://www.landwatch.com/Hudspeth-County-Texas-Land-for-sale/pid/25010854) (including fees), which is double what saw a few days ago.

Still pretty affordable, I reckon. If you don't mind the fact that it's (presumably) completely useless for most anything, and probably opens up more liabilities than opportunities.

khadgar567
2016-07-25, 04:40 AM
living in turkey if you have a land in good location you can make huge profit just by renting few houses in apartment and from were I look at it 1 acre is enough area to put one apartment complex and maybe a pool so its up to players with profession tycoon class skill hell they might found oil(or any major resource) in there to sell for decent profit so we need info of the land and party mate

Xefas
2016-07-25, 05:27 AM
One acre of desolate, rocky wilderness would make an excellent political insult for a noble to gift somebody they don't like so that the other gentry can laugh discreetly at them.

I think one of my Exalted had an acre-sized palanquin. I seem to recall forbidding my slaves to put wheels on it to make hauling it around easier. Because then it would be a wagon, and only peasants get carried around in a wagon.

Altair_the_Vexed
2016-07-25, 08:30 AM
In BECM D&D, which had a whole set of rules on land ownership and dominion resources, a 24 mile hex is considered to be a normal starting land grant for a single PC.

An acre of land is a pathetically small amount - even speaking as someone in the crowded middle of England.
An acre of spoiled land is worse - it's an offence. I'd only take it if I believed I could make it so awesome through my skills and powers to be an insult right back at the a-holes who offered it.

Of course, it may be that the land is the only thing the PCs' patrons have, in which case I'd humbly help them restore it and gift it back to them.

Jay R
2016-07-25, 09:10 AM
If you are trying to "raise" them to the social level of peasant farmers who own their own family farms, forty acres of moderately good land each is the bare minimum.

Of course, giving them a farm would end their wandering days, unless they ignored it.

mikeejimbo
2016-07-25, 09:19 AM
An acre of mountainous terrain... once I cleared the taint I'd build an underground stronghold. With plenty of traps for defense, maybe hire some tough types as guards. Store my treasures there - wait... I'm just building a dungeon at this rate.

Are we the baddies?

Telonius
2016-07-25, 09:26 AM
In the mountains, not worth very much.

If it were between the salt water and the sea strand, it could be priceless to the right buyer.

Amphetryon
2016-07-25, 09:27 AM
In the mountains, not worth very much.

If it were between the salt water and the sea strand, it could be priceless to the right buyer.

*golf clap*

Segev
2016-07-25, 09:57 AM
Given the description as being rocky, mountainous, etc., I can only assume this land is out in the wilderness. At which point, I almost wonder who has the right to "give" that acre. That kind of terrain in most game settings will tend to be unowned and open to simply being CLAIMED.

But assuming it really is parceled out and owned, one acre is practically nothing in the kind of terrain described; it sounds like wilderness surrounded by wilderness. An acre of that is negligible. You could literally squat on it and people might not realize for decades.


Wait seriously? I'm almost tempted to buy an acre or two just for the sake of saying I own land in Texas.Be aware that Texas has no income tax, and makes up for it by having some of the higher property tax in the country.


I think one of my Exalted had an acre-sized palanquin. I seem to recall forbidding my slaves to put wheels on it to make hauling it around easier. Because then it would be a wagon, and only peasants get carried around in a wagon.Bah. You're not a REAL Exalt unless you have demon-slaves carrying your acre-sized palanquin. If you can get Octavian to do it by himself, you're actually living up to your potential!



If it were between the salt water and the sea strand, it could be priceless to the right buyer.Mostly, true lovers of mines.

kyoryu
2016-07-25, 10:29 AM
As a point of comparison, an acre is roughly the size of a football field.



If it were between the salt water and the sea strand, it could be priceless to the right buyer.

I've got a shirt without any seams or needlework, too!



Mostly, true lovers of mines.

I think the implication is she wasn't ;)

Mastikator
2016-07-25, 10:47 AM
An alternative is to just give them money with the option to buy land. I like playing house but I can see some players not liking that and preferring adventuring so they'd just see land as a burden, even if it was a lot of good land.

Elvenoutrider
2016-07-25, 10:50 AM
A gift of land that would not be useful or even reachable was actually not necessarily an insult as it actually raises the pcs to the status of landowners which would allow them to appear in court and discuss political issues with the noble's. For hundreds of years the English and French would actually grant allies lands in the other country that they would theoretically hold of either country were taken by the reigning monarch. This would lead to all sorts of complications years later when wars did break out, noble's would switch sides and then two families could end up legally owning the same plot of land

LibraryOgre
2016-07-25, 12:01 PM
A couple other old units of land measurement for reference.

A virgate, which was notionally 30 acres, was considered the amount a single team of oxen could plow in a season.

A hide, which was notionally about 120 acres, was considered enough to support a household.

These two varied according to land quality... low quality land would require a far larger space to support a household.

In short? The acre probably isn't bad for an inn or personal residence, but is not much for anything else.

VoxRationis
2016-07-25, 12:28 PM
Tiny parcels of land give you an 'in' to the nobility. Who knows, maybe your PCs' children will be fostered with the daughters of a Lord Paramount, and they'll develop romantic attachments which will lead to the children plotting to spark a civil war, manipulating the royal court to give them land after land and title after title.

The Glyphstone
2016-07-25, 12:31 PM
A gift of land that would not be useful or even reachable was actually not necessarily an insult as it actually raises the pcs to the status of landowners which would allow them to appear in court and discuss political issues with the noble's. For hundreds of years the English and French would actually grant allies lands in the other country that they would theoretically hold of either country were taken by the reigning monarch. This would lead to all sorts of complications years later when wars did break out, noble's would switch sides and then two families could end up legally owning the same plot of land

It does depend on the specifics of the land, though. An acre of prime farmland in the middle of the enemy kingdom's heartland is practically useless, but in theory it's quite valuable and symbolically it is an excellent gift. An acre of muddy silt at the bottom of a lakebed is the same quantity of land, but worthless no matter which way you look at it, and thus of far less value symbolically to the point of being a backhanded insult if it's a "gift". In this case, an acre of mountainous/hilly terrain with a magically poisonous taint on it is far closer to the 'bottom of the lakebed' end of the spectrum in land quality.

Beleriphon
2016-07-25, 12:59 PM
For comparison purposes a plot of lad provided in Upper Canada to settlers was upwards of 100 acres as their personal farm.

Elvenoutrider
2016-07-25, 03:50 PM
It really depends on who is getting the useless land. If you gift the useless land to an existing landowner it is definitely a snub. If you gift it to someone who does not have land, it gives them political power and the right to marry into other noble houses. It is actually a great gift for a rich merchant that would cost the gifting party essentially nothing.

bulbaquil
2016-07-25, 05:54 PM
Right. I'll amend my previous comment:

If the party doesn't own land already, then gifting them even bad land elevates them to the gentry, which is a big deal in and of itself.

If the party does own land already, it's an insult of the "backhanded compliment" variety.

CharonsHelper
2016-07-25, 06:01 PM
While others have said the actual size - I don't think that anyone has put it in context. Traditionally an acre was the amount of land which a farmer could plow in one day.

Traab
2016-07-25, 06:01 PM
It really depends on who is getting the useless land. If you gift the useless land to an existing landowner it is definitely a snub. If you gift it to someone who does not have land, it gives them political power and the right to marry into other noble houses. It is actually a great gift for a rich merchant that would cost the gifting party essentially nothing.

I was actually just thinking this. In and of itself its worthless land. What matters is the implication. You are now a landowner. That puts you up at least a rank or two on most social orders. Yes those with thousands of acres and entire towns to their name will snigger and scoff at your tiny parcel, but you are still moving on up, to the east side. To a deluxe apartment, in the sky (if you have the right spells handy) Which makes you better than a landless vagabond, or a bloody peasant bound to his lords land having to deal with the violence inherent in the system.

Now, if that was the goal of the reward then mission accomplished, it counts as a reward. If the goal was to basically unload some worthless garbage and the heroes were dumb enough to accept it, then not so much. If they are going to either ignore its existence as not worth dealing with then it is a meaningless reward, you might as well declared them to be supreme mugwumps and high muckety mucks of the loyal order of the water buffalo. Its more of a meta game insult because you are "giving" them something that doesnt exist, has no benefit, and is utterly meaningless.

Pugwampy
2016-07-25, 06:20 PM
Wow thats so cute . A whole acre of land .

I am gonna give my players an underground dwarf fortress at the end of a basic game mod .

Do i believe they will sell it ? No they will not , they will move into it and pick their own rooms and decorate it and play house . Players like owning club houses . In the big picture of leveling up , killing monsters and.... repeat , this sort of reward is nothing .
Lets assume the worst and a capitalist PC group wants to sell it well ....who says anyone is interested or can even afford that ?

I am far more nervous about coughing up a Frostbrand to a capable fighter player .

SethoMarkus
2016-07-25, 06:53 PM
It also depends on the politcal-economic structure of the setting. If this is a feudal society of fiefdom, then owning land grants a title and allows entry into the realm of the nobility. If it is a more frontier, colonialist setting, that land is now technically owned by the PCs, which is nice, but isn't really enough to do anything with and its condition is squarely in the backhanded compliment zone (unless the gift-giver wasn't aware of the condition). If it is set up like a more modern capitalist society where land ownership is common enough to not warrant any special status or privileges, it is certainly an insult and is more a punishment than a gift, especially if there are taxes to pay on it. That isn't saying that resourceful players won't polish that dirt into a diamond, and any amount of land can be a great boon or a non-gift depending on how the players decide to run with it, but under no circumstance would I say one acre is too much.

Koo Rehtorb
2016-07-25, 07:14 PM
Guys what if we're looking at this the wrong way? What if this is an ant game and all the PCs are ants? An acre is probably too much to grant to an all-ant party, yes.

khadgar567
2016-07-25, 07:55 PM
Guys what if we're looking at this the wrong way? What if this is an ant game and all the PCs are ants? An acre is probably too much to grant to an all-ant party, yes.
I dont think ant can be an adventurer

Kid Jake
2016-07-25, 08:03 PM
I dont think ant can be an adventurer

That's racist.

LooseCannoneer
2016-07-25, 08:09 PM
I dont think ant can be an adventurer

But they qualify for the antventurer prestige class. That has to count for something.

Traab
2016-07-25, 08:44 PM
I dont think ant can be an adventurer

So they take a con penalty due to their small size, big deal, they are a race with natural bonuses to tracking and stealth, and they can and will sneak attack you before you even know they are around. They are born thieves, carrying off anything they can find, and are masters of the art of war from invading other tribes of antmen and the dreaded termitus clan.

The Glyphstone
2016-07-25, 09:17 PM
A part of Ant Rogues with the Swarm Fighting feat will mulch any level-appropriate counter in a single round with surprise.

RickAllison
2016-07-25, 10:31 PM
Another way to look at it is a test. Maybe the noble who gave it to them (or a friend) wants to see what the party does with it. Will they simply let it rot or sell it (shows they lack responsibility and/or will not settle down)? Turn it into a stronghold to raid goblin villages (maybe these PCs could make great officers of a border fort...)? Turn it into a thriving location through mining, a way post, or some other attraction (they have ambition and initiative, maybe I should appoint them stewards of some lackluster portions of my estate and see how they turn it around)? Fail in their attempts, but persevere (lots of endurance, don't give up in the face of adversity)? There are lots of things a noble can learn from how they treat that little parcel of land...

The Glyphstone
2016-07-25, 10:33 PM
The problem being that the parcel in question is tiny, as we've noted already. There was a picture posted for actual visual scale above - it's big enough for a comfortable one-family house with a large front yard and that's it. Not enough to actually build anything useful on.

RickAllison
2016-07-25, 11:31 PM
The problem being that the parcel in question is tiny, as we've noted already. There was a picture posted for actual visual scale above - it's big enough for a comfortable one-family house with a large front yard and that's it. Not enough to actually build anything useful on.

That's where the challenge comes from!

BayardSPSR
2016-07-25, 11:34 PM
Acre's more than five square miles, according to Google, so it seems like a pretty generous offer. Are you planning on giving them just the old town, or the modern sprawl as well?

RickAllison
2016-07-25, 11:40 PM
Acre's more than five square miles, according to Google, so it seems like a pretty generous offer. Are you planning on giving them just the old town, or the modern sprawl as well?

Ummmmm, no... More like 1/640th of a square mile.

BRC
2016-07-25, 11:41 PM
Ummmmm, no... More like 1/640th of a square mile.

Nah, the math checks out. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre,_Israel)

RickAllison
2016-07-26, 12:04 AM
Nah, the math checks out. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre,_Israel)

Oh wow....

TheYell
2016-07-26, 01:11 AM
I think it would be more realistic to grant them the whole tainted mountainside and let them worry about making some profitable use of it -- and keeping off neighboring nobles if they succeed.

Estate management is one thing that separates aristos from everyone else so they have some character development ahead. Settle down and become gentry or cash out and keep adventuring with better gear?

Agrippa
2016-07-26, 01:30 AM
Think of it this way, you're giving the party land to build their base on. Sort of like the New Avengers Facility in the MCU (http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/New_Avengers_Facility). So I'd honestly say if anything it needs more acreage for it to really be useful.

RickAllison
2016-07-26, 02:25 AM
Think of it this way, you're giving the party land to build their base on. Sort of like the New Avengers Facility in the MCU (http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/New_Avengers_Facility). So I'd honestly say if anything it needs more acreage for it to really be useful.

Even an acre can work for that, depending on the laws of the land. England, for example, didn't start officially stating that a landowner also owned the air and subsurface rights until 1587. Before that, a wizard could simply grow his fortress out over his neighbor's land or under it.

BayardSPSR
2016-07-26, 04:05 AM
England, for example, didn't start officially stating that a landowner also owned the air and subsurface rights until 1587. Before that, a wizard could simply grow his fortress out over his neighbor's land or under it.

I'd heard this was a problem in 1580's England.

RickAllison
2016-07-26, 07:45 AM
I'd heard this was a problem in 1580's England.

England would have been a very interesting place if it did... Instead, the particular case was more whether someone could build a house that blocks out a neighbor's windows.

Segev
2016-07-26, 10:28 AM
I dont think ant can be an adventurer


That's racist.

Sounds more sexist, to me. Bet he never objected to the idea of uncles being adventurers!

Draken
2016-07-26, 12:22 PM
Nah, the math checks out. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre,_Israel)

You are thinking too small. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre_(state))

khadgar567
2016-07-26, 12:27 PM
Sounds more sexist, to me. Bet he never objected to the idea of uncles being adventurers!
guys I mean all the f ing nest work while queen bickering on your neck they have enough problems as it its don't talk about their speed 5ft per turn tanks to size difference even with sneak attack build this is to easy to roadkill

Barstro
2016-07-26, 12:30 PM
As others have said, 1 acre aint a lot. I mean, you can have a decent sized house on it, but thats about it.
Why is everyone so two-dimensional? Mineral rights, people;

Hearing nothing to the contrary, and despite no evidence to support it, I have decided that the acre plot is one foot of topsoil and then pure gold all the way down to the turtle's back.

EDIT: Didn't see that this thread was three pages long and now I don't feel like reading through it all. I'll just assume someone else pointed out this possibility.

Telonius
2016-07-26, 12:39 PM
EDIT: Sliced to death by ninjas...

Vinyadan
2016-07-26, 12:49 PM
On the mountains, in an inhospitable area.

Time to found a dojo.

Tvtyrant
2016-07-26, 01:09 PM
An adventurer can get an acre of land whenever they want by displacing some monstrous creatures, seems like a bad gift. Why not spice it up and have them get the entrance of a dungeon or mine as a gift? Then they have to deal with monsters as well as getting something.

cobaltstarfire
2016-07-26, 01:24 PM
Why is everyone so two-dimensional? Mineral rights, people;

Hearing nothing to the contrary, and despite no evidence to support it, I have decided that the acre plot is one foot of topsoil and then pure gold all the way down to the turtle's back.

EDIT: Didn't see that this thread was three pages long and now I don't feel like reading through it all. I'll just assume someone else pointed out this possibility.

Well is the GM giving the party mineral rights?

In some places ownership of the land does not entitle you to the mineral rights.

Red Fel
2016-07-26, 01:26 PM
Well is the GM giving the party mineral rights?

In some places ownership of the land does not entitle you to the mineral rights.

And in some places, being a murderous adventurer with a big sword, spell component pouch, and flexible moral compass entitles you to quite a lot, thank you.

So, about those mineral rights...

Segev
2016-07-26, 01:26 PM
At this point, I'm mostly interested in what the OP is thinking, based on what's been written here. Did he over-estimate how big an acre was, or is there a reason he wants it to be that small?

CharonsHelper
2016-07-26, 02:25 PM
On the mountains, in an inhospitable area.

Time to found a dojo.

Or a high level Pokémon Gym.

RickAllison
2016-07-26, 08:11 PM
Or a high level Pokémon Gym.

You don't know what terrors you have wrought. You are a bad person.

Thank you.

Red Fel
2016-07-27, 08:22 AM
Or a high level Pokémon Gym.

*shows up at 3 am*

*looks around, sees nobody*

*claims for Team Valor*

Segev
2016-07-27, 09:51 AM
Gengar, possess Charizard.

Dark Charizard, Hellfire attack.

cobaltstarfire
2016-07-27, 09:52 AM
And in some places, being a murderous adventurer with a big sword, spell component pouch, and flexible moral compass entitles you to quite a lot, thank you.

So, about those mineral rights...

Don't forget to "encourage" them to give the party more acreage while you're at it.

gkathellar
2016-07-27, 10:08 AM
On the mountains, in an inhospitable area.

Time to found a dojo.

Hopefully the magical taint comes from a demon living beneath the land's surface. I know I wouldn't study at a dojo unless it was built on top of at least one supernatural horror monster.

Strigon
2016-07-27, 10:33 AM
And in some places, being a murderous adventurer with a big sword, spell component pouch, and flexible moral compass entitles you to quite a lot, thank you.

I've always thought your moral compass was akin to Jack Sparrow's; that is, it points to whatever you want most while holding it.

khadgar567
2016-07-27, 10:34 AM
Hopefully the magical taint comes from a demon living beneath the land's surface. I know I wouldn't study at a dojo unless it was built on top of at least one supernatural horror monster.
is soulnado works as major plot device

Beleriphon
2016-07-27, 12:24 PM
I think it would be more realistic to grant them the whole tainted mountainside and let them worry about making some profitable use of it -- and keeping off neighboring nobles if they succeed.

Estate management is one thing that separates aristos from everyone else so they have some character development ahead. Settle down and become gentry or cash out and keep adventuring with better gear?

Or hire a majordomo and keep on keeping on?

RickAllison
2016-07-27, 01:43 PM
Or hire a majordomo and keep on keeping on?

Even then, estate management can become an adventure all on its own. Conquering/being awarded more territory, eliminating threats, and expanding the influence of your holdings.

LibraryOgre
2016-07-27, 05:44 PM
Hopefully the magical taint comes from a demon living beneath the land's surface. I know I wouldn't study at a dojo unless it was built on top of at least one supernatural horror monster.

It comes from enchanted toilet paper.


....what?

VoxRationis
2016-07-27, 06:34 PM
Even then, estate management can become an adventure all on its own. Conquering/being awarded more territory, eliminating threats, and expanding the influence of your holdings.

D&D actually stands for "Donjons and Demesnes."

Garimeth
2016-07-28, 07:05 AM
This thread is awesome.

Kind of wonder if the OP is ever coming back, lol.

mikeejimbo
2016-07-28, 08:49 AM
I've actually always wanted a game about ants.

veti
2016-07-28, 09:00 AM
I've actually always wanted a game about ants.

Here you go (http://www.myabandonware.com/game/simant-the-electronic-ant-colony-197).

Knaight
2016-07-28, 09:09 AM
D&D actually stands for "Donjons and Demesnes."

For which one acre might maybe be enough for the actual main building, and nothing else.

comk59
2016-07-28, 09:25 AM
I've actually always wanted a game about ants.

Actually, there's an insect TTRPG on /tg I believe. Or maybe that's just the setting...

mikeejimbo
2016-07-28, 11:49 AM
Here you go (http://www.myabandonware.com/game/simant-the-electronic-ant-colony-197).

Ha. I mean a TTRPG. It's SimAnt's fault in the first place.


Actually, there's an insect TTRPG on /tg I believe. Or maybe that's just the setting...

Now that piques my interest.

Segev
2016-07-28, 01:09 PM
Ha. I mean a TTRPG. It's SimAnt's fault in the first place.


Now you're just arguing SimAnt-ics.

comk59
2016-07-28, 02:17 PM
Now that piques my interest.

yoooo.

http://arthropocalypse.forum-motion.com/t17-starter-thread-new-to-arthropocalypse

keep in mind that it's in /tg/ post form, so it may be hard to parse. There could be a pdf of the rules floating around somewhere though.

*edit*

Well shut my mouth and call me a lower thorax, there are TWO insect rpgs on /tg/

https://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocume nt%2Fd%2F1pAduIU7TDaKHvvaUfzRbgYj44TX_hApLeNeVu2d5 bbM%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing

mikeejimbo
2016-07-28, 03:05 PM
Now you're just arguing SimAnt-ics.

Hahaha that's awesome.


yoooo.

http://arthropocalypse.forum-motion.com/t17-starter-thread-new-to-arthropocalypse

keep in mind that it's in /tg/ post form, so it may be hard to parse. There could be a pdf of the rules floating around somewhere though.

*edit*

Well shut my mouth and call me a lower thorax, there are TWO insect rpgs on /tg/

https://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocume nt%2Fd%2F1pAduIU7TDaKHvvaUfzRbgYj44TX_hApLeNeVu2d5 bbM%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing

As is that! Thank you!!

RickAllison
2016-07-29, 09:20 AM
For which one acre might maybe be enough for the actual main building, and nothing else.

Well that is kind of the point. It is only enough for the one area, so how are you going to expand? How will you finance this expansion? How will you manage your estate while you are procuring these funds and lands?

It is like Civilization. You use the property you have to produce the capital you need to expand, to use the expanded property to generate further capital, as nauseum.

DRD1812
2016-07-29, 04:04 PM
So now I'm wondering how we can abuse an acre of land. I think the best way is to claim (as some others have said) that it makes them gentry. Build a big enough keep on the property and who could argue? Ride out from there, begin annexing more land from the neighbors, and carve out a fiefdom. Of course, there's nothing stopping the PCs from doing that anyway.

If it were me, I'd just give them a ranch. A quick realty search puts the smallest at about 60 acres.

landwatch.com/Colorado_farms_ranches_for_sale

That's enough to make it interesting. Other critters might be squatting on their land. It might be right in the middle of a mega-fauna migration path. They can't watch all corners of it at once. In other words, if you're looking to make it a challenge you should go bigger, not smaller.

PersonMan
2016-07-29, 04:44 PM
I'd shy away from making keeping / maintaining the land a challenge unless the players and PCs are all interested in the benefits. I know I'd be quick to give up land I was given if it ended up just being something I have to keep going off to defend against some new threat with most of my characters.

ExLibrisMortis
2016-07-29, 05:34 PM
So now I'm wondering how we can abuse an acre of land.
Well, the classic way is to start a garden shop and rob the bank across the road.

RickAllison
2016-07-29, 05:37 PM
I'd shy away from making keeping / maintaining the land a challenge unless the players and PCs are all interested in the benefits. I know I'd be quick to give up land I was given if it ended up just being something I have to keep going off to defend against some new threat with most of my characters.

Exactly. Defending the land should either be a big event (a rival noble's forces gather against the horizon, bringing war), or it should be something resolved by allocating resources to henchmen.

Example: Varioud kobold tribes have been cast out by the Orc wars, and have been making scavenging raids against the PCs' keep. A sufficient guard should be handling these encounters without much trouble, but it might take a more organized effort (or one led by the PCs) to fully dispatch the threat. PC involvement should not be to keep the land safe, it should be to make it more profitable or useful.

RickAllison
2016-07-29, 05:50 PM
Well, the classic way is to start a garden shop and rob the bank across the road.

No, you start up a luggage shop with that intent, then you find out that you are making a respectable profit, are considered a stable and model member of the community, and genuinely like where you are in life.

Honest Tiefling
2016-07-29, 09:35 PM
If the players aren't so interested in land management, it could be an acre in a city, that's quite a bit of real estate. And has been mentioned before, being a landlord might be a good way to go about things. Presumably, there is a good chance the city won't go up in flames the moment the characters turn their back on the property.

It could just be a symbolic thing. As in, there, you have land, you are now a knight, enjoy the benefits. So what if the land is not enough to make a profit? The point is they get elevated to a new social class and get the perks regardless of the amount of land. I believe Poland had a system where they wound up with a lot of nobles who were (supposedly) equal to one another, even if one just owned a small bit of land. Getting elevated to nobility was still a big deal.

Does anyone know how much land you could put a decent mill on? That could be another option, and like the city, usually defended well enough to not be an issue and will generate money over time.

SethoMarkus
2016-07-30, 12:10 AM
No, you start up a luggage shop with that intent, then you find out that you are making a respectable profit, are considered a stable and model member of the community, and genuinely like where you are in life.

No, you open a florist shop and only employ friars. Just watch out for guys named Hugh.

Vinyadan
2016-07-30, 03:47 PM
You can also drill a hole towards Hell, build a big gate over it and blackmail the world powers to get paid to keep it closed.

tomandtish
2016-07-31, 10:57 AM
Ummmmm, no... More like 1/640th of a square mile.


Nah, the math checks out. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre,_Israel)

...Did you mean to link to the city in Israel? Or am I missing sarcasm?


Oh wow....

If done as a perfect square, an acre is 208.71 * 208.71 feet or or 43,560 square feet.

For reference, I live in a typical suburban neighborhood. The lots are 120 feet by 50 feet. 7 of them pretty much equal an acre (minus about 1560 square feet), so chunk in half of another back yard.

Saying 5 square miles sounds impressive, but is incorrect. You can find the conversion chart here (http://www.asknumbers.com/square-mile-to-square-feet.aspx) (at least for all modern usage). Or the Wiki (always correct, of course) here.

PersonMan
2016-07-31, 11:02 AM
...Did you mean to link to the city in Israel? Or am I missing sarcasm?

They did - it's either a continuation/explanation of the joke the former poster made, or making a joke out of the mistake/correction.

RickAllison
2016-07-31, 11:26 AM
...Did you mean to link to the city in Israel? Or am I missing sarcasm?



If done as a perfect square, an acre is 208.71 * 208.71 feet or or 43,560 square feet.

For reference, I live in a typical suburban neighborhood. The lots are 120 feet by 50 feet. 7 of them pretty much equal an acre (minus about 1560 square feet), so chunk in half of another back yard.

Saying 5 square miles sounds impressive, but is incorrect. You can find the conversion chart here (http://www.asknumbers.com/square-mile-to-square-feet.aspx) (at least for all modern usage). Or the Wiki (always correct, of course) here.

You do realize I was saying "Wow" in response to the joke that I had missed beforehand, right? I live in a ranching and farming community, measuring in square feet or miles is much rarer than using acres here.

Jay R
2016-07-31, 01:52 PM
I've actually always wanted a game about ants.

They tried to fluff it as science fiction, but Chitin I (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2194/chitin-i) was pretty much two colonies of ants fighting over a picnic table.

tomandtish
2016-08-01, 04:56 PM
You do realize I was saying "Wow" in response to the joke that I had missed beforehand, right? I live in a ranching and farming community, measuring in square feet or miles is much rarer than using acres here.

Yeah, I completely missed the earlier joke. :eek:

Lvl 2 Expert
2019-04-20, 02:29 AM
Whenever you're confused about how large an acre is think about the Hundred Acre Wood from Winnie the Pooh. It sounds like a huge place full of adventure, but it's actually a very reasonable size for a bunch of trees between some farmlands where you might let your kid play. It's so small that the real world place it was based on is closer to 500 acres, 100 acres is the scaled down extra child friendly version. It's a bit under one half by a whole kilometer or one third by two third miles.

CharonsHelper
2019-04-20, 08:48 AM
Whenever you're confused about how large an acre is think about the Hundred Acre Wood from Winnie the Pooh. It sounds like a huge place full of adventure, but it's actually a very reasonable size for a bunch of trees between some farmlands where you might let your kid play. It's so small that the real world place it was based on is closer to 500 acres, 100 acres is the scaled down extra child friendly version. It's a bit under one half by a whole kilometer or one third by two third miles.

An acre is the size of land needed to perform thread necromancy?

LibraryOgre
2019-04-20, 08:56 AM
The Mod Wonder: An acre is enough land to bury a thread on.