How to Guide: Protecting yourself from Ice Assassin

[Emperor Tippy]

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to tell me how to rules legally make yourself immune to Simulacrum and Ice Assassin.

There is a method to ensure that any such spells cast on your without special preparations will result in nothing but a dead corpse. So what it it?

I will provide my solution to this problem in a week or so but I'm curious to see what others come up with.

[asnys]

Kill yourself?

Other than that, both the simulacrum and ice assassin have at least some of the original's class levels, and the corresponding special abilities and feats. So I'm guessing there's some obscure feat or prestige class you can take that will kill you if you don't have an item that protects you from it. This also fits with the "special preparations" comment - namely, get hold of a copy of the item.

[Hamste]

Kill yourself?

Other than that, both the simulacrum and ice assassin have at least some of the original's class levels, and the corresponding special abilities and feats. So I'm guessing there's some obscure feat or prestige class you can take that will kill you if you don't have an item that protects you from it. This also fits with the "special preparations" comment - namely, get hold of a copy of the item.

If I had to guess it is a risen martyr. The capstone just takes your "spiritual body". If there is an item that works any distance that allows you to function without your body when you level up your soul can continue with out the body. If anyone copies your body with out the item the body immediately rises to the celestial planes and is essentially lost. Not sure what item would allow that though.


Though wouldn't a ghost work? They need a piece of you for the spells so if there is no piece of you left for them to use they can't replicate you.

[Jowgen]

If I had to guess it is a risen martyr. The capstone just takes your "spiritual body". If there is an item that works any distance that allows you to function without your body when you level up your soul can continue with out the body. If anyone copies your body with out the item the body immediately rises to the celestial planes and is essentially lost. Not sure what item would allow that though.


Though wouldn't a ghost work? They need a piece of you for the spells so if there is no piece of you left for them to use they can't replicate you.

Perhaps Fang of Lolth might work in this regard, depending on how you read the degree to which being one leaves you dependent on having the Fang Scarab attached to your neck?

[Cosi]

Assuming you're not natively immune to damage, you can do it with self-resetting Contingent Spells.

Use SLA/Supernatural wish to create the following Contingent Spells (items per Complete Arcane):

1. Contingent Twinned wish. Triggers when any of the Contingencies aren't active, with the effect of creating whichever non-active Contingency appears first on this list.
2. Contingent mindrape. Triggers when an ice assassin or simulacrum of you exists, with the effect of making you fall in love with it.
3. Contingent love's pain. Triggers when someone you love is alive, targeting you and damaging them.

The effect of this is that whenever an ice assassin or simulacrum of you is created, it is repeatedly hit with the damage from love's pain until it dies. There are some potential problems with this:

1. "An item from this list" might not be a safe or legal wish. wish for an item is, but the "intelligence" involved might not be within the scope of wish. Solvable with a way to arbitrarily reduce the levels of spells, which allows you to replace each Contingent Spell with Contingent greater arcane fusion for wish for the Contingency and the other spell.
2. The current set up involves the assumption that Contingent Spells can trigger based on information you don't have. Solvable by adding divinations to find the existence of ice assasssins or simulacra. Start with commune to ask "does an ice assassin or simulacrum of me exist". This can also be done with Contingencies.
3. Depending on your interpretation of how XP costs work when they are not being paid, you may run out of XP in your wish Contingency. Solvable by adding Contingent time stop for when your wish runs out of XP so you can cast a new one.

A weaker solution exists that simply mitigates the value of ice assassins of you by using a similar Contingency net to repeatedly mindrape or programmed amnesia away your memories when you don't need them so an ice assassin doesn't have any information that can be used against you. Yes, it's still a high level caster, but you can make those out of Great Wyrm Dragons or whatever.

If there's some way to create a permanent backlash effect (a la Epic Spellcasting) that is copied by ice assassin but you are immune to because of something it does not copy (hide life, shapechange tricks, or massive fast healing seem like a start), that would kill instantly if the damage pile was big enough.

[Aquillion]

I think there should be basic requirements for a defense to be considered reasonable:

1. It shouldn't create a vulnerability more serious than Ice Assassin itself. This is debatable, since Ice Assassin itself is so nasty (and some of it depends on how rare you think the spell is in your setting), but I'd argue that leaving yourself open to instant death if a particular item is stolen, disenchanted, etc. is unacceptable.

2. It shouldn't require overwhelming investment. If you were planning to be a full caster and have to give up full casting for it, it's obviously not a good trade-off (I mean, you're protecting yourself from Ice Assassin at the cost of making yourself cease to be someone who requires tactics on par with Ice Assassin to kill.) Even if you preserve full casting, taking a specific level of a particular class is a pretty big sacrifice to protect against one specific spell. For that matter, even just taking a feat to protect against a particular spell (even one as nasty as Ice Assassin) seems like a pretty bad plan to me unless you're absolutely certain your DM is going to be going after you with that particular spell constantly. The only spell I'd really consider that degree of investment to protect against specifically is Dispel Magic (and only if it covers variations on it.) Of course, if you can argue that the build as a whole is fun, cool, or powerful and only incidentally protects against Ice Assassin, that's a different story, but generally an ideal protection wouldn't require a dedicated, unusual build.

That doesn't mean that we can't discuss "unreasonable" protections (they're often amusing), but ideally, we're looking for a defense that requires only spells, items, tactics, and other "expendable" things, rather than requiring that you invest limited parts of your character build in it.

Anyway, let's consider the ways the Ice Assassin differs from the original. The main things are:

1. Made of ice (although it is unclear if this adds any weaknesses.)
2. Has the cold subtype.
3. Cannot become more powerful.
4. Burning desire to kill the original.
5. Under control of caster.

...I'd say that if you can somehow negate the final two points, that would be sufficient to count as "immunity" (since without that, the Ice Assassin would be on your side, probably.)

[Cosi]

1. It shouldn't create a vulnerability more serious than Ice Assassin itself. This is debatable, since Ice Assassin itself is so nasty (and some of it depends on how rare you think the spell is in your setting), but I'd argue that leaving yourself open to instant death if a particular item is stolen, disenchanted, etc. is unacceptable.

One thing to remember is that even if you're immune to ice assassin, that's only protecting you from people using it to get information about you. If they just want super-soldiers, they can close high level Outsiders or Dragons, which have plenty of casting and other resources with which to kill people. As such, any method which can prevent ice assassins from spilling the beans on your plans is probably "good enough".


Anyway, let's consider the ways the Ice Assassin differs from the original. The main things are:

1. Made of ice (although it is unclear if this adds any weaknesses.)
2. Has the cold subtype.
3. Cannot become more powerful.
4. Burning desire to kill the original.
5. Under control of caster.

You're forgetting two of the most important points. It doesn't have any items you have, and it doesn't have any active spells you have.

[Segev]

Be incorporeal? Without substance to your body, there's nothing to use as the material component.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Be incorporeal? Without substance to your body, there's nothing to use as the material component.
Incorporeal beings still have 'substance', just incorporeal. Any incorporeal being could use your incorporeal hair on an incorporeal block of ice... hey, wait, don't run away now, Physics! This is no time to cry!


I don't have any fruitful ideas yet, but I'll be watching this thread with interest.

[khadgar567]

contingency death thrones or anything that deals your total hp amount damage like sanctum spelling fireball
then contingency resurrect with following chain
1.when I die blast everything to similderiens
2. resurrect myself via contingency

[Psyren]

Find a way to permanently be at 0 hit points; Any simulacra or ice assassins people try to make of you will melt to nothingness instantly upon creation.

[khadgar567]

Find a way to permanently be at 0 hit points; Any simulacra or ice assassins people try to make of you will melt to nothingness instantly upon creation.
but you are also near to get one shoted by common cat

[Hamste]

but you are also near to get one shoted by common cat

Not if you make yourself immune to damage.

[Psyren]

but you are also near to get one shoted by common cat

There's plenty of ways to make yourself unattackable, immune to damage etc. When I'm not at work I'll have time to dig more deeply.

[Crake]

Incorporeal beings still have 'substance', just incorporeal. Any incorporeal being could use your incorporeal hair on an incorporeal block of ice... hey, wait, don't run away now, Physics! This is no time to cry!


I don't have any fruitful ideas yet, but I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Not having a physical body makes it really hard to make a sculpture of you out of ice though. Also beings that exist as pure energy and literally have no physical form, ethereal, incorporeal or otherwise, cannot have their non existent form taken. Examples include eladrin in their ball of light form, or potentially lantern archons.

[Jormengand]

To stop the spell working, we should look at everything in the spell and ask "How can we mess with that?"

The material component is obvious, but the feat Ignore Material Components allows a creature to, well, ignore material components.

The hit points thing would also work, except that it only explodes if reduced to 0 hit points by damage, so that's a no-fly.

The spell creates a "Living, breathing creature" which is otherwise your exact duplicate. Therefore, play as a lich, which need I remind you has no lungs, and then watch your "Living, breathing" duplicate suffocate. I can't see a good way to get around this except giving it a Ring of Water Elemental Command or Ring of Water Breathing and giving it a fresh breath of water, in a sort of fishbowl-over-the-head kind of way.

[Psyren]

The hit points thing would also work, except that it only explodes if reduced to 0 hit points by damage, so that's a no-fly.

I don't see a damage requirement in the spell text. It just says "if reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed." And since it's duplicating you, whatever method you used to reduce your own hit points to zero will automatically apply to it as well, with no time to counter or react.

[Jormengand]

I don't see a damage requirement in the spell text. It just says "if reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed." And since it's duplicating you, whatever method you used to reduce your own hit points to zero will automatically apply to it as well, with no time to counter or react.

You're reading Simulacrum, not Ice Assassin.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Not having a physical body makes it really hard to make a sculpture of you out of ice though. Also beings that exist as pure energy and literally have no physical form, ethereal, incorporeal or otherwise, cannot have their non existent form taken. Examples include eladrin in their ball of light form, or potentially lantern archons.
Ethereal creatures definitely have physical form, just on a plane coterminous with the Material.

You can easily sculpt an incorporeal block of ice into an incorporeal statue of an incorporeal creature, however, that is, strictly speaking, not required. You don't need to carve an ice statue that has the type, subtype and abilities of the creature you wish to emulate. Ice assassins of incorporeal creatures don't have to be incorporeal, either.


You're reading Simulacrum, not Ice Assassin.
The thread is about both, simulacrum is just not in the title. Not that your comment is irrelevant, just making sure we're all aware of this, since the thread has gone towards ice assassin immediately.

[Jormengand]

The thread is about both, simulacrum is just not in the title. Not that your comment is irrelevant, just making sure we're all aware of this, since the thread has gone towards ice assassin immediately.

Yes, but I'm only looking at these methods as being methods which protect against both (because that's what Tippy's after), unless someone uses two methods, one for each.

[Renen]

I'd agree that a method that allows you to stay at 0 hp should work.

And technically, since Tippy asked about the clone being a dead body on creation, id assume even if you do find some way to truly have no body, it wouldn't fit, since then you wouldn't be able to have even a dead clone.

[Psyren]

You're reading Simulacrum, not Ice Assassin.

Ice Assassin doesn't say that either. It says if you reduce it to zero via damage, it explodes into shrapnel. It doesn't say that it doesn't function like simulacrum when reduced to zero in any other respect. So I stand by my answer.

[Jormengand]

Ice Assassin doesn't say that either. It says if you reduce it to zero via damage, it explodes into shrapnel. It doesn't say that it doesn't function like simulacrum when reduced to zero in any other respect. So I stand by my answer.

Nor does it say that it works like simulacrum at all, only that it is "In many ways an improved version of" it, hence inheriting nothing whatsoever from simulacrum. If it did inherit from simulacrum, it would not bother specifying the effect, duration, saving throw or spell resistance, as per spells such as summon monster II which doesn't specify components, casting time, range, duration, saving throw or spell resistance as it inherits them from the lesser spell, and also actually has the grace to tell you that it "functions like summon monster I". Ice Assassin does not include any indication that it inherits from simulacrum at all, only that it is in many ways an improved version.

In any case, simulacra must be reduced to 0 hit points to destroy them, not start off at 0, so it still wouldn't work even if you were right.

[Werephilosopher]

Find a way to permanently be at 0 hit points; Any simulacra or ice assassins people try to make of you will melt to nothingness instantly upon creation.

Hide life seems to be the best way to sustain yourself. Be an evil dragon and take permanent hit point loss from a Vassal of Bahamut while your hide life is on.

[smasher0404]

Be a commoner with the corpse flaw from that one dragon magazine issue. (The same one as chicken infested) As it inherits all your abilities, it inherits your corpse flaw and dies.

[Crake]

Ethereal creatures definitely have physical form, just on a plane coterminous with the Material.

You can easily sculpt an incorporeal block of ice into an incorporeal statue of an incorporeal creature, however, that is, strictly speaking, not required. You don't need to carve an ice statue that has the type, subtype and abilities of the creature you wish to emulate. Ice assassins of incorporeal creatures don't have to be incorporeal, either.


The thread is about both, simulacrum is just not in the title. Not that your comment is irrelevant, just making sure we're all aware of this, since the thread has gone towards ice assassin immediately.

As I said though, if you are a creature that exists as pure energy, none of that applies, you have no form. How does one make a ball of light out of ice? Even Incorporeal Ice

[Emperor Tippy]

As I said though, if you are a creature that exists as pure energy, none of that applies, you have no form. How does one make a ball of light out of ice? Even Incorporeal Ice

They just make a ball out of Ice. Nothing in the spell requires that the Ice sculpture be a good likeness.

[Crake]

They just make a ball out of Ice. Nothing in the spell requires that the Ice sculpture be a good likeness.

Well, looking at Ice assassin it does say "near perfect", though i suppose the simulacrum is just a rough form. So i suppose it helps at least vs ice assassin?

[Heliomance]

What's the result of attempting to make an ice assassin of someone that's done the psionic sammich trick?

[ExLibrisMortis]

What's the result of attempting to make an ice assassin of someone that's done the psionic sammich trick?
A living, breathing sandwich of ice. It's a near-perfect duplicate, really only missing the non-living non-breathing character of the sandwich, but otherwise exactly matching it.

(I really don't know for sure, but this seems to match)

[Heliomance]

Hang on - is there any way to survive with 0 Con? Because, assuming that your survival method was a buff or item, that would do it.

EDIT: Gotcha. Hide Life, from Tome and Blood. Isolate your life force into your heart, remove it, and store it somewhere safe, with standard Tippyverse level protections on it. Now you can't die so long as your heart is intact. An Ice Assassin made of you will not be under the effects of Hide Life, however it will still be missing its heart as it's a near-perfect duplicate of you. As it, unlike you, cannot survive without its heart, the conjurer simply gets a corpse.

Of course, Hide Life does have the rather major downside that if you would otherwise be dead, you are permanently staggered and cannot benefit from healing.

[Inevitability]

Magical life support:

1. Play any +0 constitution race (I prefer wizards) with 8 base constitution and the quick trait.
2. Take levels in wizard.
3. Put on a +6 Amulet of Health.
4. Wait for aging to reduce your base constitution to 7. You remain comfortably at 13 constitution due to your amulet.
5. Avoid HP-boosting feats, templates, prestige classes or otherwise permanent aspects of your character as you level.
6. Get to level 20.
7. Do whatever a 20th-level wizard likes to do.

If an ice assassin of you is created, it'll inherit your constitution modifier of -3 because it's a living creature that uses your stats. It now has a -3 HP penalty on every of its d4 HD that can reduce its HP below zero. Assuming your DM doesn't roll for monster health, the assassin will have his HP reduced by one point for every two levels. Your 20 wizard levels put it at exactly -10 HP: the point where any living creature dies.

Downsides: an +constitution item placed on the statue before it is brought to live may keep it alive, and you yourself will need to take precautions against dispels or antimagic fields.

[Jack_Simth]

Magical life support:

1. Play an elf (gray elf works best) with 8 base constitution. This get lowered to 6.
2. Take levels in wizard.
3. Put on a +6 Amulet of Health.
4. Wait for aging to reduce your base constitution to 5. You remain comfortably at 11 constitution due to your amulet.
5. Avoid HP-boosting feats, templates, prestige classes or otherwise permanent aspects of your character like the plague as you level.
6. Get to level 20.
7. Do whatever a 20th-level wizard likes to do.

If an ice assassin of you is created, it'll inherit your constitution modifier of -3 because it's a living creature that uses your stats. It now has a -3 HP penalty on every of its d4 HD. Assuming your DM doesn't roll for monster health, the assassin will have his HP reduced by one point for every two levels. Your 20 wizard levels put it at exactly -10 HP: the point where any living creature dies.

Downsides: an +constitution item placed on the statue before it is brought to live may keep it alive, and you yourself will need to take precautions against dispels or antimagic fields.

Problem: Under the Constitution (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#constitutionCon) entry, you have "Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level)."

You'll need more than that. The Quick trait, maybe.

[Inevitability]

Problem: Under the Constitution (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#constitutionCon) entry, you have "Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level)."

You'll need more than that. The Quick trait, maybe.

Changed human to elf, added the quick trait. Done and done.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hang on - is there any way to survive with 0 Con? Because, assuming that your survival method was a buff or item, that would do it.

EDIT: Gotcha. Hide Life, from Tome and Blood. Isolate your life force into your heart, remove it, and store it somewhere safe, with standard Tippyverse level protections on it. Now you can't die so long as your heart is intact. An Ice Assassin made of you will not be under the effects of Hide Life, however it will still be missing its heart as it's a near-perfect duplicate of you. As it, unlike you, cannot survive without its heart, the conjurer simply gets a corpse.
Doesn't work. Hide Life is an Instantaneous spell, your Ice Assassin should have the same benefit as it isn't a spell effect but instead an ability that you now have.

At least that would be my ruling


Of course, Hide Life does have the rather major downside that if you would otherwise be dead, you are permanently staggered and cannot benefit from healing.
That's not actually how that line parses out.

"If you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing and simply fall down dead if the spell is ended."

How that parses is that if the spell is ended then, if you are at -10 or lower HP then you can't benefit from any healing and are just dead.

So long as Hide Life is still functioning then you can benefit from healing.

[Heliomance]

What, if anything, does this do?


Be a Necropolitan
Cast Magic Jar
Kill your original body
Haunt Shift yourself
Possess your old body as a haunting presence

[khadgar567]

What, if anything, does this do?


Be a Necropolitan
Cast Magic Jar
Kill your original body
Haunt Shift yourself
Possess your old body as a haunting presence


find puchbag and haunt him instead bastard has enough immunities to survive end of universe so he can deffinetly survive this

[Emperor Tippy]

What, if anything, does this do?


Be a Necropolitan
Cast Magic Jar
Kill your original body
Haunt Shift yourself
Possess your old body as a haunting presence


Can't Haunt Shift if you have more than 9 HD.

[Inevitability]

Can't Haunt Shift if you have more than 9 HD.

Then use UMD + Guidance of the Avatar to activate a scroll of Magic Jar before you have 9 HD.

[Pippin]

I will provide my solution to this problem in a week or so but I'm curious to see what others come up with.
In which plane are you measuring time? Because I've been waiting for months since you started this thread D:

Anyway, I sort of submitted this challenge earlier this year (click (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482142-Countering-Ice-Assassin)), but it seems that there was no solution that didn't impact the character's class progression.

[Gildedragon]

Can't Haunt Shift if you have more than 9 HD.

Could always get negative levels to drain HD to <10 and then restoration them bavk


Contingent spell: DCS or PsiReform to change a flaw into PigBonded
Ice assassin won't have the pig
Therefore Orcus

[Inevitability]

In which plane are you measuring time? Because I've been waiting for months since you started this thread D:

It's Tippy, so obviously fast time a timeless plane where the notion of 'week' is meaningless.


Could always get negative levels to drain HD to <10 and then restoration them bavk


Contingent spell: DCS or PsiReform to change a flaw into PigBonded
Ice assassin won't have the pig
Therefore Orcus

That forces you to keep your power level somewhere where Orcus could reasonably defeat you in one-on-one combat, though. Not sure if I want to stoop that low. :smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

Magical life support:

1. Play any +0 constitution race (I prefer wizards) with 8 base constitution and the quick trait.
2. Take levels in wizard.
3. Put on a +6 Amulet of Health.
4. Wait for aging to reduce your base constitution to 7. You remain comfortably at 13 constitution due to your amulet.
5. Avoid HP-boosting feats, templates, prestige classes or otherwise permanent aspects of your character as you level.
6. Get to level 20.
7. Do whatever a 20th-level wizard likes to do.

If an ice assassin of you is created, it'll inherit your constitution modifier of -3 because it's a living creature that uses your stats. It now has a -3 HP penalty on every of its d4 HD that can reduce its HP below zero. Assuming your DM doesn't roll for monster health, the assassin will have his HP reduced by one point for every two levels. Your 20 wizard levels put it at exactly -10 HP: the point where any living creature dies.

Downsides: an +constitution item placed on the statue before it is brought to live may keep it alive, and you yourself will need to take precautions against dispels or antimagic fields.

My own plan for this was actually based around the similar idea, but a bit more extreme. Instead of just being a race without any CON boni, have one that actively has a penalty, at least -2, but preferably -4. Keep a +6 item of constitution on you, bringing you up to (at most) CON 12. When you age to Venerable, your CON without the stat booster drops 0,while your CON stays at a measely 6. So if an ice assassin of you was to be created, it would have CON0, and thus be dead. Putting an Amulet of Health or similar on the statue ahead of time wouldn't stop it, because only characters can use magic items, not objects. Thus, the statue has to be a creature before the item could take effect. And the moment it's a creature, it dies.

[Emperor Tippy]

My own plan for this was actually based around the similar idea, but a bit more extreme. Instead of just being a race without any CON boni, have one that actively has a penalty, at least -2, but preferably -4. Keep a +6 item of constitution on you, bringing you up to (at most) CON 12. When you age to Venerable, your CON without the stat booster drops 0,while your CON stays at a measely 6. So if an ice assassin of you was to be created, it would have CON0, and thus be dead. Putting an Amulet of Health or similar on the statue ahead of time wouldn't stop it, because only characters can use magic items, not objects. Thus, the statue has to be a creature before the item could take effect. And the moment it's a creature, it dies.

That one works but does leave you quite vulnerable to anything that negates your item. Such as an AMF, Dead magic plane, Disjunction, Dispel, etc.

[Gildedragon]

It's Tippy, so obviously fast time a timeless plane where the notion of 'week' is meaningless.



That forces you to keep your power level somewhere where Orcus could reasonably defeat you in one-on-one combat, though. Not sure if I want to stoop that low. :smalltongue:

Orcus skinning you is an instantaneous effect. Though it only probably kills the ice assassin

[Renen]

That one works but does leave you quite vulnerable to anything that negates your item. Such as an AMF, Dead magic plane, Disjunction, Dispel, etc.

But as long as it works, he has fulfilled the original request :P

[Psyren]

Well, looking at Ice assassin it does say "near perfect", though i suppose the simulacrum is just a rough form. So i suppose it helps at least vs ice assassin?

So have no body and 0 HP and you defeat both, problem solved.

[Shiva asori]

Think the dry lich from sandstorm would work since in the process of becoming one, alot of your internal organs (including your heart) are removed from your body and placed into jars that become your phylactery?

[Necroticplague]

That one works but does leave you quite vulnerable to anything that negates your item. Such as an AMF, Dead magic plane, Disjunction, Dispel, etc.

Hmmmm....I could have sworn there was a feat that lets you make what are basically wands, except they're extraordinary instead of magical. Craft Device, I think it was? One could craft a Device of Persisted Bear's Endurance as a last contingency in case of such events.

[ShurikVch]

Just start the game as a Sharn: they are immune to simulacrum and ice assassin via the Archetypal Shape

[Inevitability]

That one works but does leave you quite vulnerable to anything that negates your item. Such as an AMF, Dead magic plane, Disjunction, Dispel, etc.

You of all people should know there's ways to protect against those.

[Psyren]

Think the dry lich from sandstorm would work since in the process of becoming one, alot of your internal organs (including your heart) are removed from your body and placed into jars that become your phylactery?

This would stop Ice Assassin ("living, breathing") but not Simulacrum, which would simply show up as a copy of you without that clause.

[Shiva asori]

would walker of the wastes capstone feature work then? it says you MUST undergo the transformation into a dry lich, but the simulacrum spell says "It cannot increase its level or abilities." so would there be a paradox or what?

[Jack_Simth]

My own plan for this was actually based around the similar idea, but a bit more extreme. Instead of just being a race without any CON boni, have one that actively has a penalty, at least -2, but preferably -4. Keep a +6 item of constitution on you, bringing you up to (at most) CON 12. When you age to Venerable, your CON without the stat booster drops 0,while your CON stays at a measely 6. So if an ice assassin of you was to be created, it would have CON0, and thus be dead. Putting an Amulet of Health or similar on the statue ahead of time wouldn't stop it, because only characters can use magic items, not objects. Thus, the statue has to be a creature before the item could take effect. And the moment it's a creature, it dies.

Aging penalties can't drop an ability score below 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age):
With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative. However, none of a character’s ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way. (emphasis added)

Now, if you also find a PrC that reduces your Con score or something....

[Necroticplague]

Aging penalties can't drop an ability score below 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age): (emphasis added)

Now, if you also find a PrC that reduces your Con score or something....

The aging isn't reducing you to 0. It's reducing you to 6.

[Jack_Simth]

The aging isn't reducing you to 0. It's reducing you to 6.

The Ice Assasin wouldn't have Con 0. It'd have Con-1. Race comes before age, generally speaking.

[Andezzar]

would walker of the wastes capstone feature work then? it says you MUST undergo the transformation into a dry lich, but the simulacrum spell says "It cannot increase its level or abilities." so would there be a paradox or what?If that were a problem, simply leveling up would cause the same paradox.

[Pippin]

Please no more waiting. I just turned venerable.

[Jack_Simth]

That forces you to keep your power level somewhere where Orcus could reasonably defeat you in one-on-one combat, though. Not sure if I want to stoop that low. :smalltongue:Ah, but that's an "unbuffed, unequipped, possibly no spells prepared" version of you - which is what immediately happens when the Ice Assassin first wakes up. Different kettle of fish.

[Metahuman1]

Kill yourself?

Other than that, both the simulacrum and ice assassin have at least some of the original's class levels, and the corresponding special abilities and feats. So I'm guessing there's some obscure feat or prestige class you can take that will kill you if you don't have an item that protects you from it. This also fits with the "special preparations" comment - namely, get hold of a copy of the item.

Curiosity, is there a way to make a Simulacrum of yourself that has equal too your ability's?

[GnomishPride]

1) Craft an item of continuous Energy Immunity: Fire (Draconomicon)
2) Wish for an instantaneous effect of continually taking (your maximum hit points+10) in fire damage, which I'm sure is within the limits of the spell.
3) The Ice Assassin is created, is reduced to deep negatives with its fire vulnerability (cold subtype)
3a) The Simalcrum is created, is reduced to deep negatives because it has half your hit points.
4) Do standard anti-Dispel Magic/Disjunction/etc. protections.

[GnomishPride]

Hopeful bump - tell us the secret!

[Aquillion]

1) Craft an item of continuous Energy Immunity: Fire (Draconomicon)
2) Wish for an instantaneous effect of continually taking (your maximum hit points+10) in fire damage, which I'm sure is within the limits of the spell.
3) The Ice Assassin is created, is reduced to deep negatives with its fire vulnerability (cold subtype)
3a) The Simalcrum is created, is reduced to deep negatives because it has half your hit points.
4) Do standard anti-Dispel Magic/Disjunction/etc. protections.There are a few issues with this.

First, dispel magic / disjunction protections are rarely perfect, and caster wars are often about choosing where to spend your resources. Making it so a dispel / disjunction kills you instead of costing you your defenses is a major drawback because you no longer have the option of allowing that item to fail.

I'm also not convinced that your wish is within the limits of the spell - you're handwaving it by saying "oh, it's a disadvantage, so it has to be", but I'm not convinced that that's true, especially since you're immediately trying to turn that disadvantage into an advantage. You certainly couldn't wish for someone else to be subject to that effect without breaking the Wish guidelines - why yourself?

But maybe most importantly, you're wasting an item slot (unless you can convince your DM to let you make a slotless item, and if you can create arbitrary slotless items the game is already so broken that Ice Assassin is the last thing you need to worry about.) I'm not sure Ice Assassin is worth wasting an item slot defending against, especially since you're not just devoting a slot to it temporarily - you will need to have that item worn every moment for the rest of your life. That's a pretty nasty drawback.

[MisterKaws]

Get some permanent immolation(needs to be damn high to melt Blue Ice fast enough). According to CustServ, all abilities work on removed body parts, so the ice would melt before finishing the statue, since the body part must be inside it.

[Jack_Simth]

caster wars are often about choosing where to spend your resources.Hmm... this got me thinking about resource usage, and that led to:
Given that it's been a full two weeks since Emperor Tippy said:
I will provide my solution to this problem in a week or so but I'm curious to see what others come up with.What do you think the odds are that ET was actually crowdsourcing a solution to the problem, but not calling it that?

[Andezzar]

What do you think the odds are that ET was actually crowdsourcing a solution to the problem, but not calling it that?Very low IMHO.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could use a device from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood for a contingencied plane shift to send you to a demiplane made of quintessence should you ever find yourself to be any sort of unauthorized clone of yourself.

I'd also suggest a device'd bestow curse on yourself, such that any part of your body (including your own body) which is separated from you by more than 5' instantaneously rots into useless sludge. So even if someone manages to create an ice assassin from you using Eschew Materials, the moment it appears, it turns into inert goo.

You could also instantaneously turn your type to animal (there are ways, such as the rituals from Savage Species), take the hive mind ability of the vermin lord, use shapechange to become an ooze with the split ability, split a whole bunch of times, and turn yourself into a hive mind with all of your cloned selves. All of those selves also have a cloned device-created acorn of far travel (using this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse), so they can go do whatever, wherever, whenever, and still remain part of the hive mind (because they're all considered standing under the same oak tree), with you in charge. Make the acorn permanent (preferably via being from a tree from a timeless demiplane) and surgically insert the acorn into your body, as well as the bodies of all of your clones, so it's a permanent part of you and them. Now, even if you're not technically immune, any clone made from you should become part of your hive mind, as soon as it's created, with you controlling it. This might require the acorn to be grafted to you, however.

Also, ice assassin aleax of yourself, combined with fusion and astral seed. So your clone just can't hurt you no matter what it does, though since it also has you as its weakness, the reverse just isn't true.

[nedz]

Be a Changeling or Doppleganger and never be in your true form.

This breaks the ability of the spell to create an exact copy since what does that look like ?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Given that it's been a full two weeks since Emperor Tippy said:What do you think the odds are that ET was actually crowdsourcing a solution to the problem, but not calling it that?You're saying ET phoned home it in?

[jindra34]

Is there a way to conditional Bestow Greater Curse? Because thinking back on what was said on the previous page, and the fact that Bestow Greater Curse can just drop an ability score to 1, combined with the frail flaw, you would have a pretty good trap mechanism set up as long as your HP per level/hd can't exceed 6. And because its magic bringing you down instead of propping you up, antimagic shenanigans won't cause sudden instant death syndrome. So much more safe on your end. But still the primary question.

[Jormengand]

Is there a way to conditional Bestow Greater Curse? Because thinking back on what was said on the previous page, and the fact that Bestow Greater Curse can just drop an ability score to 1, combined with the frail flaw, you would have a pretty good trap mechanism set up as long as your HP per level/hd can't exceed 6. And because its magic bringing you down instead of propping you up, antimagic shenanigans won't cause sudden instant death syndrome. So much more safe on your end. But still the primary question.

A normal Bestow Curse delivered by way of Mark of Justice could probably work too. Set the trigger condition to "If I start as a copy" and the effect to "Reduce my CON by 6". A pity there's no greater version of MoJ.

[jindra34]

A normal Bestow Curse delivered by way of Mark of Justice could probably work too. Set the trigger condition to "If I start as a copy" and the effect to "Reduce my CON by 6". A pity there's no greater version of MoJ.

Thats only really good enough if you have a base Con of 11 or less for a d4 hitdie, or 7 or less for a d6 and no other HP boosters, because we don't want good luck to screw the plan over. Which leaves you fairly vulnerable to fort based SoDs.

[Jormengand]

Thats only really good enough if you have a base Con of 11 or less for a d4 hitdie, or 7 or less for a d6 and no other HP boosters, because we don't want good luck to screw the plan over. Which leaves you fairly vulnerable to fort based SoDs.

Fort-based SoDs? You should already be immune to those. Like, very immune to them.

[ryu]

This plan will not result in your enemies getting a corpse, but it will result in them getting a useless shell as compared to literally any other full caster.

Step 1: Have vecna-blooded template, use any of a number of methods to lose and regain it on a daily basis. This is important because whenever the template is gained all knowledge of you is wiped from history and the memory of everyone that isn't you. This should make it effectively impossible to get ice assassin knowledge from anyone but you, and similarly immune to divination as a bonus.

Step 2: Have both spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster. Never have to prepare spells again.

Step 3: Either go eidetic to never need a spellbook or protect the best one you can make to the fullest extent of your capabilities. I would suggest making your spellbook a sentient, vecna blooded, animated magic item and store it shrunken in your bloodstream when not in use. Make it an aleax if you can. Learn all wizard spells and as many from other classes as you can.

Step 4: Use craft contingent spell and ice assassin together with your crafting XP farm method of choice to craft the most deadly arsenal of spells you can. It will also be key to the final step.

Step 5: Mind rape self into forgetting all knowledge of spells, contingent spells, and plans beyond general directives. Keep contingent mind-rapes to restore the knowledge in the event of a fight, or other obstacle to your longterm goals.

The result? No one knows about you to oppose you. Even if they do you can't be divinationed at all. Even if they find a way to read your prepared spells list it's useless because you don't have one. They can't read your spellbook because it either doesn't exist or is as untouchable as a thing can be. You can do virtually everything spontaneously and anything commonly good or worthwhile hundreds of thousands of times per turn.

Most importantly? An ice assassin of you knows NOTHING. It doesn't know any spells. It has no spellbook. It doesn't have your contingencies. It knows absolutely nothing about you save the most general of knowledge about your goals. All told literally any other high level mage in existence is now a more productive target for ice assassin unless someone actually manages the corpse trick.

[khadgar567]

This plan will not result in your enemies getting a corpse, but it will result in them getting a useless shell as compared to literally any other full caster.

Step 1: Have vecna-blooded template, use any of a number of methods to lose and regain it on a daily basis. This is important because whenever the template is gained all knowledge of you is wiped from history and the memory of everyone that isn't you. This should make it effectively impossible to get ice assassin knowledge from anyone but you, and similarly immune to divination as a bonus.

Step 2: Have both spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster. Never have to prepare spells again.

Step 3: Either go eidetic to never need a spellbook or protect the best one you can make to the fullest extent of your capabilities. I would suggest making your spellbook a sentient, vecna blooded, animated magic item and store it shrunken in your bloodstream when not in use. Make it an aleax if you can. Learn all wizard spells and as many from other classes as you can.

Step 4: Use craft contingent spell and ice assassin together with your crafting XP farm method of choice to craft the most deadly arsenal of spells you can. It will also be key to the final step.

Step 5: Mind rape self into forgetting all knowledge of spells, contingent spells, and plans beyond general directives. Keep contingent mind-rapes to restore the knowledge in the event of a fight, or other obstacle to your longterm goals.

The result? No one knows about you to oppose you. Even if they do you can't be divinationed at all. Even if they find a way to read your prepared spells list it's useless because you don't have one. They can't read your spellbook because it either doesn't exist or is as untouchable as a thing can be. You can do virtually everything spontaneously and anything commonly good or worthwhile hundreds of thousands of times per turn.

Most importantly? An ice assassin of you knows NOTHING. It doesn't know any spells. It has no spellbook. It doesn't have your contingencies. It knows absolutely nothing about you save the most general of knowledge about your goals. All told literally any other high level mage in existence is now a more productive target for ice assassin unless someone actually manages the corpse trick.
ladies and gentleman here is your answer of tippyverse ice assassin problem

[MaxiDuRaritry]

ladies and gentleman here is your answer of tippyverse ice assassin problemI dunno, it seems kinda limiting and annoying for the person doing it. I'd rather have a hive mind with lots of bodies to do all the stuff I want than self-inflicted amnesia.

[ryu]

I dunno, it seems kinda limiting and annoying for the person doing it. I'd rather have a hive mind with lots of bodies to do all the stuff I want than self-inflicted amnesia.

It's actually both. Remember the ice assassins? Naturally they also get the same treatment, but you TOTALLY have effectively a hivemind. I mean I suppose we could get deeper into it with that swarms intelligence trick build that created the most dagnasty powerful thing I've ever seen outside of pun-pun, I'm solving the challenge with what I see as the minimum investment.

[Malroth]

So Basicaly Yagami Light yourself on a daily basis,

[ryu]

So Basicaly Yagami Light yourself on a daily basis,

Yep. Beings can be created that have all of your knowledge and a desire to destroy you. You cannot trust them with knowledge. Therefor the inevitable conclusion is that you cannot trust yourself with knowledge.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yep. Beings can be created that have all of your knowledge and a desire to destroy you. You cannot trust them with knowledge. Therefor the inevitable conclusion is that you cannot trust yourself with knowledge.
You could encrypt your memories, instead. You still need to keep your keys safe (=outside your memories), but that still reduces the amount of mindraping required, increasing the viability of the technique.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I still like my way better. Anyone creating an ice assassin of you is actually unwittingly increasing your power, as well as giving you a way to attack them that's right there.

"Oh, you just made me another body. Thank you. And in return, I shall give you a nice, tasty Twin Ray'd disintegrate to eat."

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm... this got me thinking about resource usage, and that led to:
Given that it's been a full two weeks since Emperor Tippy said:What do you think the odds are that ET was actually crowdsourcing a solution to the problem, but not calling it that?
Nah, got a few new ideas though.

My solution is the following:

Step 1: Be a species with a listed maximum age.
Step 2: Go to the Astral Plane and hang out there until you have reached the maximum possible age of your species plus one year.
Step 3: Have Kissed By The Ages cast on yourself.
Step 4: Go about your business like you normally would.

Any Ice Assassin of you will be created at the same age that you are. Without the KbtA item in contact with the IA, the IA continues to age. Per the Astral Plane, any ageing strikes you suddenly and completely once you leave. So your Ice Assassin dies of old age immediately upon being created.

This can be gotten around be creating the Ice Assassin on the Astral Plane.

That can be countered by having the feat Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble set to the material plane (or any non timeless plane in fact). The IA would then come into existence with the feat active and thus instantly keel over dead.

Since it is dead via Old Age, True Resurrection can't return the IA to life (unlike with the various methods of carrying damage over to the IA).

[ryu]

You could encrypt your memories, instead. You still need to keep your keys safe (=outside your memories), but that still reduces the amount of mindraping required, increasing the viability of the technique.

It also adds more things that could go wrong. Having things you NEED to protect means that you've introduced a fail-state where none need exist.

Tippy: Couldn't you reincarnate the ice assassin to pass that?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That can be countered by having the feat Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble set to the material plane (or any non timeless plane in fact). The IA would then come into existence with the feat active and thus instantly keel over dead.You're better off recreating yourself a body using a device of polymorph any object from base matter on a custom demiplane. Make a new body from a demiplane with dead magic that emulates the area at the base of The Spire, in the Outlands.

Want to cast spells? Make sure you have a device of acorn of far travel, and plant yourself a nice oak tree on your fast time demiplane that's timeless with respect to magic, magic-like effects (specifically, device effects), food, and aging, with enhanced magic (all useful metamagic feats, chosen as needed) and 1:10 flowing time, and subjective directional gravity for at-will flight. You're now emitting a field that can negate abilities from everything up to and including overdeities (as well as those of your ice assassin clone) while you're completely unaffected by it yourself.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It also adds more things that could go wrong. Having things you NEED to protect means that you've introduced a fail-state where none need exist.
Contingent spells are also things that can go wrong, especially when you're talking about disjunction (or reciprocal gyre), and manually casting miracle inside a time stop every time you want to solve a puzzle can get annoying. Encrypting your memories means you can decrypt them with less effort than full-blown miracling them back into your head.

Incidentally, you need miracle or wish, not mindrape, to restore memories. Same difference for the purposes of this discussion, but worth noting. Mindrape can add memories, but grants no knowledge of what you forgot, so it's useless for restoring things forgotten.

[Emperor Tippy]

It also adds more things that could go wrong. Having things you NEED to protect means that you've introduced a fail-state where none need exist.

Tippy: Couldn't you reincarnate the ice assassin to pass that?

"The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age."

That line is in reincarnate, and every other resurrection spell in the game.

Getting around death by old age is about the hardest thing to do in the entire game. Even the various Divine Powers don't prevent the resurrected creature from falling over dead immediately afterwords thanks to old age.

So to res someone from death via old age you need a deity with one of the resurrection divine powers (such as Gift of Life) to resurrect the creature on the Astral Plane. Then you use KbtA to stop old age death. Then you travel to the material plane on the night of a full moon and use Steal Life to drain off enough years that you now are under your maximum age.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age."

That line is in reincarnate, and every other resurrection spell in the game.

Getting around death by old age is about the hardest thing to do in the entire game. Even the various Divine Powers don't prevent the resurrected creature from falling over dead immediately afterwords thanks to old age.

So to res someone from death via old age you need a deity with one of the resurrection divine powers (such as Gift of Life) to resurrect the creature on the Astral Plane. Then you use KbtA to stop old age death. Then you travel to the material plane on the night of a full moon and use Steal Life to drain off enough years that you now are under your maximum age.You can also go back in time using one of various means and cast clone on the person's younger self. Then, before he dies, have him upload his XP total and memories into a thought bottle. Then when the person is about to die of old age, slay him via a crafted contingency. He will come back via the clone at the level he was back when you cast the spell, whereupon he can re-download his XP total via the thought bottle.

Though I suppose reincarnate would work as well, assuming you don't mind the race and gender changes.

[ryu]

"The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age."

That line is in reincarnate, and every other resurrection spell in the game.

Getting around death by old age is about the hardest thing to do in the entire game. Even the various Divine Powers don't prevent the resurrected creature from falling over dead immediately afterwords thanks to old age.

So to res someone from death via old age you need a deity with one of the resurrection divine powers (such as Gift of Life) to resurrect the creature on the Astral Plane. Then you use KbtA to stop old age death. Then you travel to the material plane on the night of a full moon and use Steal Life to drain off enough years that you now are under your maximum age.

Simpler process.

Step 1: Create your ice assassin on any of the previously mentioned planes that prevent aging.

Step 2: Kill it in a manner that has nothing to do with age. Specifics don't really matter.

Step 3: reincarnate.

Result? The creature is now automatically young. You can do this because it didn't die of old age. Simple ne?

[Emperor Tippy]

Simpler process.

Step 1: Create your ice assassin on any of the previously mentioned planes that prevent aging.

Step 2: Kill it in a manner that has nothing to do with age. Specifics don't really matter.

Step 3: reincarnate.

Result? The creature is now automatically young. You can do this because it didn't die of old age. Simple ne?

If you are creating the creature in a manner that doesn't result in it immediately dying (i.e. on a timeless plane) then it doesn't matter. You can use any number of methods to prevent a living creature from dying via old age.

[ryu]

If you are creating the creature in a manner that doesn't result in it immediately dying (i.e. on a timeless plane) then it doesn't matter. You can use any number of methods to prevent a living creature from dying via old age.

I'm not saying they aren't all possible. I just prefer the solution with the fewest number of easily explained steps that meets the goal.

[Mato]

Step 2: Go to the Astral Plane and hang out there until you have reached the maximum possible age of your species plus one year.Aging is relative and you don't age while on the astral plane, your time spent must be on another plane.

And while I could point out that no where in ice assassin's text does it say it copies your age or how the DM rolls your maximum age after the ice assassin hits the venerable age and then the DM kills you sometime over the next year opposed to instantly slain like you are thinking, or how animate dread warrior is a great way to raise people that died of old age. You provided your own counter example in your post, the entire age mechanic does not function while on the astral plane and that allows you to live past any due date marked on the calendar.

I would have just used true mind switch on an Aleax and capture the original (if needed). Only a deity can bring those into existence and no one can harm an Aleax other than original. Other creatures, even duplicates like an ice assassin, are not included so even if another deity were to use his godly powers to create an Aleax-Ice assassin of you, you would benefit from an immunity against it.

[Calthropstu]

Scry it, usurp control, send it back at caster.

[Jack_Simth]

Aging is relative and you don't age while on the astral plane, your time spent must be on another plane.You sort-of do. It's part of the definition of a Timeless Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#timeless):
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait can affect certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane.

The danger of a timeless plane is that once one leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging do occur retroactively. (Emphasis and Emphasis added)

[Mato]

You sort-of do. It's part of the definition of a Timeless Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#timeless):(Emphasis and Emphasis added)I looked at the atrial plane entry it's self which simply says it resumes. But where you age your self is simply a tiny detail since you could do it anywhere and your ice assassin can acquire it's own immorality before it leaves as well.

And killing your ice assassin is pretty easy, if you acquire an aura that affects every creature in range but the creature's ability to ignore it is based off another ability, and there are several fire/cold creatures that have this, you can use manipulate form to obtain the ability but use a magical item to protect your self against it. It's pretty easy to tank your hit points, the quick trait even allows you to gain +0 hp at each level, so your clone will kill it's self on it's first turn and there are probably a lot more ways to invoke that event than auras or age.

Also you can even obtain a mild form of protection by using the half-celestial template and savage species to add the incorporeal subtype. No material component of you can be obtained and even your blood is worth twenty gold pieces preventing eschew materials from working. You'd need something like a dweomerkeeper or deity to overcome that.

The Aleax just provides the greatest amount of protection with the least amount of effort and it prevents anyone from copying you and the actual ice assassin from killing you. But you can still become trapped, total immunity in a game like D&D is next to impossible to obtain and it's something even Pun-Pun technically has to fear until he can prevent another kobold from ascending.

[Jowgen]

Not a practical solution, but just out of curiosity, would being a "Force of Nature" (MMII) work?

Their state of being is a good notch above simple incorporeality or shapelessness.

[Zweisteine]

your ice assassin can acquire it's own immorality before it leaves as well.
That's what the planar bubble is for. It's granted by a feat, so the ice assassin would have it, and it effectively puts you on the plane of your choice. So if you have Permanent Emanation (planar bubble (material plane)), the assassin would die instantly even on timeless planes.

Perhaps if it could somehow be created in a vat of quintessence...



an aura that affects every creature in range but the creature's ability to ignore it is based off another ability
I'm not quite sure I follow...


you can use manipulate form to obtain the ability but use a magical item to protect your self against it.
But you could also use Manipulate Form to make yourself immune to ice assassin.


It's pretty easy to tank your hit points, the quick trait even allows you to gain +0 hp at each level, so your clone will kill it's self on it's first turn and there are probably a lot more ways to invoke that event than auras or age.
But then you'd also have incredibly low hit points. I mean, it works, but now you're vulnerable to other things (power word kill, maybe?).


Also you can even obtain a mild form of protection by using the half-celestial template and savage species to add the incorporeal subtype. No material component of you can be obtained and even your blood is worth twenty gold pieces preventing eschew materials from working. You'd need something like a dweomerkeeper or deity to overcome that.
Or a wish/miracle, probably.


even Pun-Pun technically has to fear until he can prevent another kobold from ascending.
Pun-Pun literally fears nothing at the moment of ascension. He makes himself into an Aleax of himself, and he can not be harmed, even by an Aleax.

[VisitingDaGulag]

The real answer is: play a balanced 3e game. The rule fixes are public. In the last year or two, some heafty optimization resources have been made public (encyclopedia draconis, dndtools, spell spreadsheets,etc).

If you can make more of yourself (similacrum, body outside body, ice assassin, fission, etc) then just get the splitting ability and fill up the multiverse with copies of yourself. By allowing clones you've turned superman into multiple-man. Have more clones of yourself than the other guy. Win.

[ryu]

The real answer is: play a balanced 3e game. The rule fixes are public. In the last year or two, some heafty optimization resources have been made public (encyclopedia draconis, dndtools, spell spreadsheets,etc).

If you can make more of yourself (similacrum, body outside body, ice assassin, fission, etc) then just get the splitting ability and fill up the multiverse with copies of yourself. By allowing clones you've turned superman into multiple-man. Have more clones of yourself than the other guy. Win.

The real danger of ice assassin isn't multiple spellcaster bodies. Level 20 casters have been able to do that for ages. The real danger is that the ice assassin knows all that the subject knows at time of creation and information gathering that isn't divination is powerful.

[Inevitability]

The real danger of ice assassin isn't multiple spellcaster bodies. Level 20 casters have been able to do that for ages. The real danger is that the ice assassin knows all that the subject knows at time of creation and information gathering that isn't divination is powerful.

It's not like it's hard to suppress your memories and only regain them when you need them.

[ryu]

It's not like it's hard to suppress your memories and only regain them when you need them.

Hey man, that's level 20 caster life. We didn't survive this long with weak traits like sanity holding us back.

[Inevitability]

By the way, I think I found another way to prevent anyone from making ice assassins of you.

Drop a sphere of annihilation in a WoMW, use divinations to determine the number of minutes the universe will last, then use Time Hop a few rounds before that happens. Wherever you end up, it's unlikely to have people who can cast Ice Assassin.

[ryu]

By the way, I think I found another way to prevent anyone from making ice assassins of you.

Drop a sphere of annihilation in a WoMW, use divinations to determine the number of minutes the universe will last, then use Time Hop a few rounds before that happens. Wherever you end up, it's unlikely to have people who can cast Ice Assassin.

Into a what now? It's entirely too late for acronyms. Still early enough for the time war I'm fighting in another thread though.

[Zanos]

I am guessing a Well of Many Worlds?

[ryu]

I am guessing a Well of Many Worlds?

I'm slightly worried about the possibility of horrible backfire due to periods of not existing possibly leading to sabotage and death.

[nedz]

By the way, I think I found another way to prevent anyone from making ice assassins of you.

Drop a sphere of annihilation in a WoMW, use divinations to determine the number of minutes the universe will last, then use Time Hop a few rounds before that happens. Wherever you end up, it's unlikely to have people who can cast Ice Assassin.

Destroying the Multi-verse would also work - but it's also a tad phryic.

[Jack_Simth]

By the way, I think I found another way to prevent anyone from making ice assassins of you.

Drop a sphere of annihilation in a WoMW, use divinations to determine the number of minutes the universe will last, then use Time Hop a few rounds before that happens. Wherever you end up, it's unlikely to have people who can cast Ice Assassin.Why would that help? The space between the planes is the astral (and is likely where you'd end up after destroying a plane), and that's got all kinds of things in it that might try to do you harm, and have decent amounts of resources at their disposal. Oh yes, and lots of people go through it on the way to elsewhere.

Of course, the astral is timeless, so your Time Hop might never expire....

[Inevitability]

Why would that help? The space between the planes is the astral (and is likely where you'd end up after destroying a plane), and that's got all kinds of things in it that might try to do you harm, and have decent amounts of resources at their disposal. Oh yes, and lots of people go through it on the way to elsewhere.

Of course, the astral is timeless, so your Time Hop might never expire....

1. The specific wording on what happens when a SoA and WoMW meet implies that the astral plane will be gone too. It is the space between the planes, yes, but that doesn't make it invincible.

2. Timeless doesn't work like that. On a timeless plane, time still passes normally, it's just that bodily functions, such as age, hunger, thirst and dying horribly from poison are suppressed there, then take effect retroactively. A Time Hop would be no different than on the material plane.

Even if you were on an actually timeless plane, such as Xoriat, Time Hop would still expire. In fact, because the speed of time on Xoriat is essentially infinite, absolutely no time at all would pass on the material plane. The only way to do what you're implying is by finding a plane where for every second that passes, infinite seconds pass on the material. Even then, that plane would be destroyed as well, so there's no point in going there.

[Jack_Simth]

1. The specific wording on what happens when a SoA and WoMW meet implies that the astral plane will be gone too. It is the space between the planes, yes, but that doesn't make it invincible.
Checking... specific text both uses "all of existence" but also references the material plane, and a black hole. Additionally, there's specific notes in the source text (Elder Evils, pages 142-143) that suggest a deity both would and could fix it provided Kyuss isn't in play.

You seem to be assuming that the entire multiverse dies. While that is definitely one reading of the text, it's also not the only one. If it were that easy to truly destroy the planes (many of which are noted as infinite), then it would have already happened (basically a variation on infinite monkeys logic).

2. Timeless doesn't work like that. On a timeless plane, time still passes normally, it's just that bodily functions, such as age, hunger, thirst and dying horribly from poison are suppressed there, then take effect retroactively. A Time Hop would be no different than on the material plane.
It does when it affects magic... although re-reading the entry, magic and psionics aren't listed as one of the things that's timeless on the Astral. So you're right on this one.

Even if you were on an actually timeless plane, such as Xoriat, Time Hop would still expire. In fact, because the speed of time on Xoriat is essentially infinite, absolutely no time at all would pass on the material plane. The only way to do what you're implying is by finding a plane where for every second that passes, infinite seconds pass on the material. Even then, that plane would be destroyed as well, so there's no point in going there.Again: You're assuming that you successfully destroy all the planes utterly in the same moment, which isn't actually a given. The vast majority of the books are written from the perspective of the material plane, and black holes in reality don't appear to have gotten rid of all reality yet, so it's quite reasonable to consider the possibility that only the material plane goes away.

And, of course, even if you're right... Ice Assassins may be the least of your worries, considering you just destroyed the DM's campaign setting and are specifically off the books for what happens to you, at which point it's DM's call.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If it were that easy to truly destroy the planes (many of which are noted as infinite), then it would have already happened (basically a variation on infinite monkeys logic).
There are probably at least as many monkeys capable of stopping the sphere/well intersection event, based on the fact that the universe is still there. Infinite monkey logic doesn't really apply when there are infinite monkeys working in multiple mutually exclusive directions. It doesn't really apply in other cases, either. It's just a roundabout and humorous way of saying that all internally consistent universes, however hypothetical and made-up, are open to reasonable discussion, even to the point of absurdly rare series of events occuring, such as the aforementioned monkeys producing the collected works of Shakespeare.

For example, by the same logic, an event which has rendered all spheres of annihilation inert, with regards to the well of many worlds, will already have occured, as well.

[nedz]

There are probably at least as many monkeys capable of stopping the sphere/well intersection event, based on the fact that the universe is still there. Infinite monkey logic doesn't really apply when there are infinite monkeys working in multiple mutually exclusive directions. It doesn't really apply in other cases, either. It's just a roundabout and humorous way of saying that all internally consistent universes, however hypothetical and made-up, are open to reasonable discussion, even to the point of absurdly rare series of events occuring, such as the aforementioned monkeys producing the collected works of Shakespeare.

For example, by the same logic, an event which has rendered all spheres of annihilation inert, with regards to the well of many worlds, will already have occured, as well.
The argument is: If you could destroy the multiverse this way, then someone would already have done it.


Checking... specific text both uses "all of existence" but also references the material plane, and a black hole. Additionally, there's specific notes in the source text (Elder Evils, pages 142-143) that suggest a deity both would and could fix it provided Kyuss isn't in play.

You seem to be assuming that the entire multiverse dies. While that is definitely one reading of the text, it's also not the only one. If it were that easy to truly destroy the planes (many of which are noted as infinite), then it would have already happened (basically a variation on infinite monkeys logic).

It does when it affects magic... although re-reading the entry, magic and psionics aren't listed as one of the things that's timeless on the Astral. So you're right on this one.
Again: You're assuming that you successfully destroy all the planes utterly in the same moment, which isn't actually a given. The vast majority of the books are written from the perspective of the material plane, and black holes in reality don't appear to have gotten rid of all reality yet, so it's quite reasonable to consider the possibility that only the material plane goes away.

And, of course, even if you're right... Ice Assassins may be the least of your worries, considering you just destroyed the DM's campaign setting and are specifically off the books for what happens to you, at which point it's DM's call.
Attempting to destroy the multiverse leads to Divine Intervention - No Exceptions.

[ryu]

There are probably at least as many monkeys capable of stopping the sphere/well intersection event, based on the fact that the universe is still there. Infinite monkey logic doesn't really apply when there are infinite monkeys working in multiple mutually exclusive directions. It doesn't really apply in other cases, either. It's just a roundabout and humorous way of saying that all internally consistent universes, however hypothetical and made-up, are open to reasonable discussion, even to the point of absurdly rare series of events occuring, such as the aforementioned monkeys producing the collected works of Shakespeare.

For example, by the same logic, an event which has rendered all spheres of annihilation inert, with regards to the well of many worlds, will already have occured, as well.

Besides those monkey's will never produce shakespeare due to being incapable of truly random output. Try the experiment and you'll get nothing but pages upon pages of a single character.

[Jack_Simth]

Besides those monkey's will never produce shakespeare due to being incapable of truly random output. Try the experiment and you'll get nothing but pages upon pages of a single character.Good luck finding infinite monkeys, or an infinite amount of time to run the experiment with a non-infinite number of monkeys. It's a thought experiment. The monkeys at typewriters are just a stand-in for 'random output generator' that was easier for a layman to understand at the time it was first made (most people here will know a rather lot about random output).

[Aquillion]

It's also a statement on how big "infinite" is.

Case in point: With infinite monkeys, there are only two possibilities for any potential outcome. Either it is guaranteed to happen, or it is totally impossible.

Saying "oh, the monkeys are not perfectly random, so you're gonna get a lot of just the same character repeat it" doesn't cut it. If you have infinite monkeys on typewriters, you will get every output that has any possibility of appearing, no matter how remote. The only way you can argue that they'll fail to produce Shakespeare is if it is literally physically impossible for them to do so.

[Name1]

I have a question: If we go the Kissed by the Ages route, then what prevents the maker of the Ice Assassin to give the Ice-Copy an item with cont. Kissed by the Ages before bringing it to life? Would the feat be faster than the spell effect?

[Deophaun]

That can be countered by having the feat Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble set to the material plane (or any non timeless plane in fact). The IA would then come into existence with the feat active and thus instantly keel over dead.
Which can be countered by a suppressing sphere. Then it can turn off the emanation and use steal life to eventually become young enough to leave the plane.

[Emperor Tippy]

Which can be countered by a suppressing sphere. Then it can turn off the emanation and use steal life to eventually become young enough to leave the plane.

It's a feat. And technically the effect isn't even spell like or supernatural. The only way to remove it is to strip the feat. And that can't be done via a static environmental effect.

And the spell I believe you are thinking of is named Impressing Field, not Suppressing Sphere.

[ryu]

It's a feat. And technically the effect isn't even spell like or supernatural. The only way to remove it is to strip the feat. And that can't be done via a static environmental effect.

And the spell I believe you are thinking of is named Impressing Field, not Suppressing Sphere.

And besides we already came up with counters earlier. Outside of everything proof shields like aleax or similar there really is no total immunity. Only increasingly ridiculous thresholds of resistance.

[Heliomance]

By the way, I think I found another way to prevent anyone from making ice assassins of you.

Drop a sphere of annihilation in a WoMW, use divinations to determine the number of minutes the universe will last, then use Time Hop a few rounds before that happens. Wherever you end up, it's unlikely to have people who can cast Ice Assassin.

I'm pretty sure this is how you become a Vestige.

[khadgar567]

I'm pretty sure this is how you become a Vestige.
which fulfills initial goal of surviving ice assassin/ simulacra

[Deophaun]

It's a feat. And technically the effect isn't even spell like or supernatural.
You're right. It's not spell-like or supernatural, because it's a spell. The feat only ever refers to it as a spell. There is no justification for treating it otherwise.

And the spell I believe you are thinking of is named Impressing Field, not Suppressing Sphere.
Actually, suppressing field.

[martixy]

This thread reminds me of Planescape Torment.

Also, isn't the item required by Kissed by the Ages as much a liability as any of the other item-based solutions? Like for example the one where you're naturally 0 con or below.

[Emperor Tippy]

You're right. It's not spell-like or supernatural, because it's a spell. The feat only ever refers to it as a spell. There is no justification for treating it otherwise.
"This spell’s effect is permanent (though you can dismiss or restart it as a free action). Effects that would normally dispel this spell instead suppress it for 2d4 rounds."

Nope, Permanent Emanation isn't making a spell permanent. It is making a spell's effect an inherent part of an individual. If the line about dispel wasn't specifically in there then it would be flat out immune to that.

You could maybe, if you squint real hard, argue that it could possibly apply but that just makes it at a straight up caster level check.


Actually, suppressing field.
It's Otiluke's Impressing Field, Complete Mage page 112.

[ShurikVch]

Things which are, probably, weren't mentioned yet:

To have Code of Conduct for Good alignment
Ice Assassin is Evil, thus will fall from the get-go

To be incorporeal.
Ice Assassin is a "living, breathing creature".
Being incorporeal, he will be incapable to interact with air, thus promptly die from asphyxiation

Turn your body into antimatter.
Whoever would try to make Ice Assassin of you will get one nasty surprise... :smallbiggrin:

[Andezzar]

Things which are, probably, weren't mentioned yet:

To have Code of Conduct for Good alignment
Ice Assassin is Evil, thus will fall from the get-go

To be incorporeal.
Ice Assassin is a "living, breathing creature".
Being incorporeal, he will be incapable to interact with air, thus promptly die from asphyxiationThose are interesting.


Turn your body into antimatter.
Whoever would try to make Ice Assassin of you will get one nasty surprise... :smallbiggrin:Is there even antimatter in D&D?

[Name1]

I have another question: What happens if the spellcaster making the Ice Assassin has a similar feat, but attuned to a timeless plane? As in, what happens if they overlap? Do they both just cancel each other or would they interact differently? Also, what if you use a contingency to disjunct (as in, dispel) the Ice Assassin as soon as it becomes active? The Ice Assassin is instaneous, so it would't be affected, but the field would be, right?

Just how instant does that "death" occur, and can you squeeze an immediate action between that?

Edit: Wait, what if... Can you IHS the effect? I think you can...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

To be incorporeal.
Ice Assassin is a "living, breathing creature".
Being incorporeal, he will be incapable to interact with air, thus promptly die from asphyxiationThis one wouldn't work, because turning incorporeal does not prevent you from breathing (else it would be mentioned somewhere, I'd think). There are numerous abilities that turn you incorporeal, and none (to my knowledge) bring this up as a point of interest.

[Psyren]

Also there are several creatures (e.g. Unbodied, Joystealers, Trillochs etc.) that are living, breathing and incorporeal all at the same time.

[ShurikVch]

Is there even antimatter in D&D?Dungeon Master's Guide, Futuristic Weapons, Antimatter Rifle

This one wouldn't work, because turning incorporeal does not prevent you from breathing (else it would be mentioned somewhere, I'd think). There are numerous abilities that turn you incorporeal, and none (to my knowledge) bring this up as a point of interest.Look there (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a):
An incorporeal creature has no physical body.
No matter what the creature looks like, it has no flesh, bones, protoplasm, or any other substance that makes up a corporeal creature's body. In effect, an incorporeal creature is a disembodied intellect or spirit.

Because it lacks a physical body, it has no Strength score. Theoretically, an incorporeal creature may have a Constitution score, but such a creature would be strange indeed. In any case, incorporeal creatures don't need to eat, drink, or breathe. In fact, they cannot do these things because they have no Strength scores and they can't affect physical objects (or even air).(And, if you don't trust to the Rules of the Game, then Rules Compendium have similar wording)
Thus, normally, incorporeal creatures are don't need any air, but Ice Assassin overrode it by saying it create "breathing creature"

[Calthropstu]

By the way, I think I found another way to prevent anyone from making ice assassins of you.

Drop a sphere of annihilation in a WoMW, use divinations to determine the number of minutes the universe will last, then use Time Hop a few rounds before that happens. Wherever you end up, it's unlikely to have people who can cast Ice Assassin.

...

If you destroy everything, you destroy the source of magic. With no magic your ring of sustenance and all spells no longer work.

You are no longer immune to suffocation. Which means you die.

You are essentially saying "I commit suicide and take everything else out with me."
This would, indeed, prevent the ice assassin from kiling you, but you still die.

[icefractal]

I think I have a variant on the “hide your memories in contingencies” tactic that would allow you to live a more normal life, as opposed to brief flashes of lucidity that you don’t (consciously) control. Also a little sturdier - you won’t be perma-gone from an unblocked Disjunction.
1) Get a symbiote, or other creature that can live internally within your body.
2) Give it divination blocking, a way to share your senses, and a way to erase memories.
3) Transfer all your secrets to it and erase them from yourself. Also erase the knowledge of its name or precisely what kind of creature it is.

You go about things as normal, except that whenever you need to know secret information you can ask it. Then it tells you what you need to know, for only as long as you need to know, and erases it afterwards. Also, since it shares your senses, it can recognize situations where the secret info is relevant, even if you yourself don’t. Sometimes it wouldn’t need to give you the full secrets even momentarily, it could just offer advice based on them.

If someone makes an Ice Assassin, all the IA knows is that “I have a voice in my head that tells me things, and I trust it.” But it doesn’t know enough info about said creature to make an Ice Assassin of it. And nobody ever has LoE to it (or even knows that it's inside your body to begin with).

Like other methods, it does mean you can’t come back from complete destruction - the fact that you don’t know enough to Ice Assassin it means you also don’t know enough to True Resurrect it. Although this could be mitigated if it has some self-regeneration method like a Lich or Ghost.

[ryu]

I think I have a variant on the “hide your memories in contingencies” tactic that would allow you to live a more normal life, as opposed to brief flashes of lucidity that you don’t (consciously) control. Also a little sturdier - you won’t be perma-gone from an unblocked Disjunction.
1) Get a symbiote, or other creature that can live internally within your body.
2) Give it divination blocking, a way to share your senses, and a way to erase memories.
3) Transfer all your secrets to it and erase them from yourself. Also erase the knowledge of its name or precisely what kind of creature it is.

You go about things as normal, except that whenever you need to know secret information you can ask it. Then it tells you what you need to know, for only as long as you need to know, and erases it afterwards. Also, since it shares your senses, it can recognize situations where the secret info is relevant, even if you yourself don’t. Sometimes it wouldn’t need to give you the full secrets even momentarily, it could just offer advice based on them.

If someone makes an Ice Assassin, all the IA knows is that “I have a voice in my head that tells me things, and I trust it.” But it doesn’t know enough info about said creature to make an Ice Assassin of it. And nobody ever has LoE to it (or even knows that it's inside your body to begin with).

Like other methods, it does mean you can’t come back from complete destruction - the fact that you don’t know enough to Ice Assassin it means you also don’t know enough to True Resurrect it. Although this could be mitigated if it has some self-regeneration method like a Lich or Ghost.

Oh there's still ways to rebuild. For example scores upon scores of ice assassins, none of which know everything, all know a tiny tiny bit. Like minuscule. Like using 10^90 individual critters hidden excessively and spread over a wide area.

[Psyren]

Dungeon Master's Guide, Futuristic Weapons, Antimatter Rifle
Look there (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a):(And, if you don't trust to the Rules of the Game, then Rules Compendium have similar wording)
Thus, normally, incorporeal creatures are don't need any air, but Ice Assassin overrode it by saying it create "breathing creature"

But if the copy comes with the incorporeal subtype, then by your own rule quote they don't need to breathe. Thus they suffer no penalties from trying to breathe and failing.

[icefractal]

Oh there's still ways to rebuild. For example scores upon scores of ice assassins, none of which know everything, all know a tiny tiny bit. Like minuscule. Like using 10^90 individual critters hidden excessively and spread over a wide area.Does that have any advantage over a single backup that has all the knowledge? Either way, it/they has to be self-mobilizing, because if you know where they're hidden then so does the IA. And either way, it/they have to be completely hidden, else an enemy just collects them all and puts the info together.

[ShurikVch]

But if the copy comes with the incorporeal subtype, then by your own rule quote they don't need to breathe. Thus they suffer no penalties from trying to breathe and failing.Ice Assassin need to breath because spell says it need; while it may keep Incorporeal subtype, it will lose ability to not breath

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But if the copy comes with the incorporeal subtype, then by your own rule quote they don't need to breathe. Thus they suffer no penalties from trying to breathe and failing.That, and incorporeal creatures have to interact with the air, because they can make noise of they want. Sound is a function of moving air around, so to make noise they would have to be able to interact with the air, albeit in a limited capacity.

[ryu]

Does that have any advantage over a single backup that has all the knowledge? Either way, it/they has to be self-mobilizing, because if you know where they're hidden then so does the IA. And either way, it/they have to be completely hidden, else an enemy just collects them all and puts the info together.

Plenty. A single backup can be found and ruin your entire plan. 10^90 ice assassins with crafted contingencies set to trigger on your death or disjunction each fully capable of wish travel, reviving you and working together to reprogram you? Good luck intercepting ALL of them. Keep in mind 10^90 isn't 900. It's 1 with 90 zeroes after it. As a matter of fact good luck intercepting some amount that can be reasonably expressed as a significant fraction of them.

[Psyren]

Ice Assassin need to breath because spell says it need; while it may keep Incorporeal subtype, it will lose ability to not breath

Nah, it just says "breathing." It doesn't say what happens if that breathing fails or doesn't do anything, but that is covered by your own rules quote - i.e. nothing.

[ShurikVch]

That, and incorporeal creatures have to interact with the air, because they can make noise of they want. Sound is a function of moving air around, so to make noise they would have to be able to interact with the air, albeit in a limited capacity.Those sounds are all totally supernatural - you aren't hearing usual air vibrations, you hearing spooky ghostly magic!

[ShurikVch]

Nah, it just says "breathing." It doesn't say what happens if that breathing fails or doesn't do anything, but that is covered by your own rules quote - i.e. nothing.It doesn't need to say something - suffocation is a general rule

[Psyren]

It doesn't need to say something - suffocation is a general rule

Right - which is overridden by your own Rules Compendium quote :smalltongue:

[ShurikVch]

Right - which is overridden by your own Rules Compendium quote :smalltongue:Sorry, but in this case specific rule of Ice Assassin trumps general rule of Incorporeal subtype
It doesn't matter if common incorporeal creatures doesn't need to breath - incorporeal Ice Assassin still must breath or die from suffocation

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sorry, but in this case specific rule of Ice Assassin trumps general rule of Incorporeal subtype
It doesn't matter if common incorporeal creatures doesn't need to breath - incorporeal Ice Assassin still must breath or die from suffocation
It pretty obviously means "breathes, but doesn't need to - just for the hell of it".

[icefractal]

Plenty. A single backup can be found and ruin your entire plan. 10^90 ice assassins with crafted contingencies set to trigger on your death or disjunction each fully capable of wish travel, reviving you and working together to reprogram you? Good luck intercepting ALL of them. Keep in mind 10^90 isn't 900. It's 1 with 90 zeroes after it. As a matter of fact good luck intercepting some amount that can be reasonably expressed as a significant fraction of them.Yeah, but ... if you have the ability to make 10^90 IAs (meaning presumably NI loops are enabled), then so do your foes. Unless they're hidden in 10^90 different ways that require different strategies to discover, their NI cancels out yours.

Also, I prefer not to invoke NI territory, since it means we can't fully resolve things without handwaving, but YMMV.

[ShurikVch]

It pretty obviously means "breathes, but doesn't need to - just for the hell of it".:smallconfused: Where?

[ryu]

Yeah, but ... if you have the ability to make 10^90 IAs (meaning presumably NI loops are enabled), then so do your foes. Unless they're hidden in 10^90 different ways that require different strategies to discover, their NI cancels out yours.

Also, I prefer not to invoke NI territory, since it means we can't fully resolve things without handwaving, but YMMV.

The strategy for finding them is that no strategy for finding them was ever devised. Self mobilizing. They're all hidden to the fullest extent of my capabilities and activate immediately upon either death or disjunction.

[icefractal]

Technically, it says "breathing" not "air breathing". :smalltongue:
And in fact, I would expect an IA of an aquatic creature to still breathe water, not air. Arguably, an incorporeal creature might breath "void" or "ethereal energy".

Also, for info-gathering purposes, it doesn't save you. The IA can hold its breath for [Con] rounds, that's plenty of time to turn it corporeal, or even to ask (telepathically) the relevant questions.


The strategy for finding them is that no strategy for finding them was ever devised. Self mobilizing. They're all hidden to the fullest extent of my capabilities and activate immediately upon either death or disjunction. Sure, but in that case you don't need 10^90 - you only need, like, 10. Or even one, if it has the capability to make a backup of itself before mobilizing.

So I may have been pessimistic; it looks like coming back from complete destruction is fairly possible. This does rely on one uncertain point - that it's easier to conceal (from divinations/etc) a creature that does nothing but wait for a signal than it is to conceal yourself. That seems pretty likely to me, but I haven't exactly gone through every info-getting method to check.

[ryu]

Technically, it says "breathing" not "air breathing". :smalltongue:
And in fact, I would expect an IA of an aquatic creature to still breathe water, not air. Arguably, an incorporeal creature might breath "void" or "ethereal energy".

Also, for info-gathering purposes, it doesn't save you. The IA can hold its breath for [Con] rounds, that's plenty of time to turn it corporeal, or even to ask (telepathically) the relevant questions.

Sure, but in that case you don't need 10^90 - you only need, like, 10. Or even one, if it has the capability to make a backup of itself before mobilizing.

So I may have been pessimistic; it looks like coming back from complete destruction is fairly possible. This does rely on one uncertain point - that it's easier to conceal (from divinations/etc) a creature that does nothing but wait for a signal than it is to conceal yourself. That seems pretty likely to me, but I haven't exactly gone through every info-getting method to check.

I do not believe in small numbers of contingencies. Also you totally need a large number for my plan to work. The whole point is that your plan isn't ruined if one gets found or intercepted. It also isn't ruined if 1000 meet the same fate. The only way to stop the plan is to successfully murder/disjunction the user while also preventing the army of ice assassins from coming into play in a matter of seconds if that. Kill the user the ice assassins will undo your work. Find a way to kill the ice assassins in their entirety the user will also undo your work if you haven't also dealt with him. You also don't have a margin for error.

[icefractal]

I could see having several of them for redundancy, just to deal with cases of random bad luck. But at the point you're talking "thousands", then that's enemy action by someone who can reliably find them. And at that point either:
A) Your enemies can also make 10^90 (or 10^10^90, for that matter) minions and send them against your minions.
B) Your enemies can't make NI minions. In that case, you have access to a much simpler defense:
. 1) Take over the world with your unstoppable minion army.
. 2) Eradicate all knowledge of Ice Assassin so you're the only one who knows it.

[Anthrowhale]

I'd like to say that Tippy's trick is clever.

Reading through permanent emanation, it clearly says "this spell", implying that it remains a spell and (hence) suppressable by either suppressing field + sufficient caster level or antimagic field + Initiate of Mystra.

There is another nondeific approach which I think works. After the ice assassin has died of old age, cast Reanimation (the wu-jen L7 spell) then deage using the BoVD spell. Reanimation has no old age limit so the only question is whether the creature that you deage is the same as the one that you want. I'd argue yes---it's not undead, and it clearly has the same body and most of the same memories (all with greater restoration).

(side note: Reanimation + Revivify or Revenance + Revivify = cheap True Resurrection)

[ryu]

I could see having several of them for redundancy, just to deal with cases of random bad luck. But at the point you're talking "thousands", then that's enemy action by someone who can reliably find them. And at that point either:
A) Your enemies can also make 10^90 (or 10^10^90, for that matter) minions and send them against your minions.
B) Your enemies can't make NI minions. In that case, you have access to a much simpler defense:
. 1) Take over the world with your unstoppable minion army.
. 2) Eradicate all knowledge of Ice Assassin so you're the only one who knows it.

Alternative reasoning is absolute defense against coincidental unlucky happenings, enemy caused or not. In order to solve this you need a reliable method of finding the ice assassins. The ability to get to every single one of them at the same time. The ability to enact this plan in its entirety within the course of a single day, and finally the ability to do all of this while also dealing with the even more heavily defended original.

Further B is in no way simpler to pull off. It relies on making a chain of events occur and in so doing requires you to draw attention to yourself in a world where any other mage before you very well could've become exactly this kind of powerful before. It guarantees that you'll have to deal with the entirety of every fight the world can throw at you many of which may be actual threats. At least the memory plan allows the possibility space to exist wherein opponents that could otherwise threaten you either don't notice you or have no motivation to risk themselves in a high level caster fight.

In short it's the difference between relying on making things happen versus relying on a specific and unlikely chain of events happening.

[Bucky]

If I got immunity to the Ice Assassin spell, would it prevent others from making Ice Assassins of me?

[ryu]

If I got immunity to the Ice Assassin spell, would it prevent others from making Ice Assassins of me?

From people directly casting ice assassin rather than using wish or miracle to mimic it yes. It's not an easy spell to defend against.

[ShurikVch]

Start your character as a Commoner with Corpse flaw, then go adventuring under the effect of persisted Revenance spell.
Any Ice Assassin made from that character will be dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) from the get-go, and explode into a burst of icy shrapnel