Sorcerer Rework

[Kryx]

Hi,

After my long support of the Sorcerer needing some small buffs I decided to take it a step further and better define the flavor of the Sorcerer class. In the playtest stages the Sorcerer was cut and brought back by WotC which seemingly left it with little playtesting. The Sorcerer doesn't have much of a niche beyond metamagic and is often outclassed by a Wizard.
With that said I have no desire to discuss the merits of a Sorcerer buff/rework as we've had many of those threads since 5e released. I would instead like to discuss the direction that I'm looking to go in.

I created Kryx's Sorcerer (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxGh_mU9ihaPcGV5ai1OZjJyWEk) with the following changes:

Spell list expanded to now include the Wizard's spell list as the normal list was rather lacking in many key spells.
Spells known expanded from 15 to 15+10 from a set list which is still far less than the prepared amount of other 9th level casters: Druid's 25+8, Cleric's 25+10, and Wizard's 44+ spells known and can prepare 25+2
Archetypes are more defined. Archetypes have been expanded from 4 abilities to 7 (capstone replaced so it's really just 6). The abilities are generally stronger and provide the vast majority of the flavor for the class. (see the last page for balance of these)
Metamagic extracted from the class in order to allow for more defined archetypes. It also makes it easier to present the metamagic options to all casting classes if they are not tied to one specific class. Metamagic options are now available as feats. See Balanced Metamagic Options as Feats if you'd like to see how that works.

Short rest minor spell recovery via Sorcerous Restoration which now gives a few points back on a short rest, but still pales in comparison to Wizard or Land Druid recovery.
6th level abilities make up for the lack of short rest recovery. They are effectively 1 specific extra 4th level spell per short rest.


Please read the document and let me know if you have any suggestions. The main questions I have about the current state:

Is it interesting and compelling to play?
Is it powerful enough? Is it better than the old version? Can it compete with a Wizard?
Is the general archetype plan a good mix of offensive, defensive, and flavorful options, or should it change before I expand it to add more archetypes?
Is it balanced? There is some math on the last page for the 6th level features. 20th level features are balanced around 3rd level spells (same as Frightening Presence)


I have included links to each Pathfinder bloodline that I used as a reference for ideas so feel free to look there as well.

Thanks so much for taking the time to look and for any feedback provided. Thanks Sharkforce for the feedback so far!

[SharkForce]

ok, so to answer a PM question:

sorcerous origin is on the second page, right column, near the top (just underneath spellcasting focus). it only lists the PHB origins, and doesn't reflect your updated version which gains subclass abilities at more levels.

for the record, your new sorcerer is still very much the master of metamagic, btw, because it can use spell points which are a much more abundant resource than metamagic points. this is a relatively minor concern for the low-cost, situational metamagic techniques (like careful spell or distant spell) since the feats you've made will likely give enough mmp for all expected uses in a day, but it makes a very major difference when we're talking about the more expensive ones like heighten or twin.

aberrant origin i still feel like acid damage isn't super thematic, and if your source material is what i think it is, warping the body (probably necrotic) or mind (psychic) would fit more.

i had mentioned i wasn't very excited about stormborn previously, and i'm having a hard time pinning down exactly what it is that makes it so "meh" to me. but i think it's a combination of some effects being somewhat underwhelming to me, with some of the abilities having anti-synergy. i have a hard time getting too excited about a 10 foot reposition that gets you out of a fight (and really, how useful is flying when it's only 10 feet in the first place?) and an ability that is only useful if you're *in* the fight in the first place to deal some added damage in an area around yourself. then you've got further anti-synergy when the 14th-level ability comes along (just how often are you expecting to be close enough for either ability to matter when you're flying all over the place). heart of the storm isn't superior damage or superior AoE, and comes with a pretty major limitation in where it can be used. maybe a range increase combined with just needing a high ceiling like call lightning could help. storm's fury... well, let's just say i think there are better ways to use your reaction for a class with the shield spell on the spell list that uses the spell points mechanic. hurricane is weaker than your newest versions of the level 18 abilities, which all now basically act as a pretty severe disable (though i'm relatively fine with that in the current incarnation, i'll come back to this later as i'd like to address the level 18 ability philosphy in general), while hurricane only lifts people above the ground and deals some very minor damage.

wild magic: i'd specifically call out that you removed "at the DM's discretion" type stuff.

living paradox: still not quite satisfied with the feel of the ability. you're going with immunities as your guideline, which is fine, but it just doesn't feel very wild to be immune to poison or disease or even crits. i guess my reaction ==> cause wild surge on attacker ability doesn't fit, but i just don't feel like there's much build-up to suddenly having galaxies instead of guts inside you. so i decided to look elsewhere for inspiration: slaadi, the embodiment of chaos. the most common abilities of various slaadi are magic resistance (not quite immunity), regeneration, shapechanger, and innate spellcasting. now, spellcasting is already covered by being a sorcerer, but those other 3 have some potential. shapechanger isn't an immunity, but it *does* mean you auto-save against polymorph. maybe give immunity to having their form changed against their will. magic resistance is also not immunity, but i feel like it's close enough to consider as a possibility. regeneration isn't an immunity per se, but it does act like one in a lot of ways. on the other hand, just handing out true regeneration might be too much. that said, i would like to make it clear that i'm not suggesting turning into a slaad, just using them for inspiration. another possible immunity would be to teleportation effects (against your will), representing that there's almost a field of chaotic energy around you that prevents such spells from getting a "lock". another good chaotic-feeling immunity might be charm effects and dominate spells. all of these together is too much i think, but i figure it's good to give you some options to pick from that would perhaps feel more "wild". you could also look to fey for inspiration, as they would be another typical "wild" and "chaotic" type of creature.

overall, i'd say this version of the sorcerer is a bit stronger than the default. i don't think it's massively stronger relative to other classes when taken into consideration along with metamagic feats being available to all, but i do think it packs a bit more punch than the PHB sorcerer, and i do feel like having more subclasses adds a bit more flavour.

[Kryx]

Fixed Sorcerous origin, thx.

Metamagic: Sorcerers are still good at metamagic and have points, but they don't get them by default. and if they do use more than their character level they're casting far less spells than other full casters so that case should be balanced. The only problem would be cases where GMs aren't using full adventuring days and Sorcerers can burn through all of their slots. If that happens a GM should adhere to that adventuring day or make some kind of alteration.
The same would be true for the spell point version of any class (I'm also planning on doing spell points for Warlock). I think the cost of less spells overall should be ok in a balanced game.

Aberrant: The source material is linked in the document. "Inspiration: Aberrant Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/aberrant-bloodline)". Aberrations vary wildly as it's a term used as a grab bag for everything weird. This isn't necessarily a mindflayer bloodline, but just weird. I included the (basic) fluff: "There is a taint in your blood, one that is alien and bizarre. You tend to think in odd ways, approaching problems from an angle that most would not expect. Over time, this taint manifests itself in your physical form." Aberrant mind and Thought Shield are directly from GOO Warlock. The other parts are mainly from the linked bloodline (Long Limbs, Acidic Rays, Aberrant Brain[ala Alien Resistance]) or my own idea (Aberrant Horror)
Psionics (ala mindflayer) should probably exist as it's own option. Potentially a bloodline.

Acidics rays is a bit weird, I'll give you that. Though Aberrations are very weird. Did you have a different idea in mind?


Storm Sorc: Flying 10 could be nice to fly over a small gap (though most could probably jump it). The real benefit is the OA avoidance. I think the fly is just there for flavor. Seems a bit weak in comparison to Armor for Dragon, telepathy for Aberrant, and Wild Magic Surge/Tides of Chaos for Wild Magic, I'll give you that. By 14th level I think you mean Storm's Fury (which is now 10th). There is indeed some weirdness here where there are a lot of melee options. Storm's Fury is basically a fire shield in lightning form. Costing a reaction could be a problem, but it seems like a good defensive option. Perhaps it just surrounds you any time you cast a spell? And to fix the melee issues perhaps change heart of the storm to be creatures equal to your Charisma modifier up to 30 feet away. In that case I think a flat amount would be better than Sorcerer level. It would be better at early levels and not equal to 75 damage at level 15 or 100 damage at level 20. Maybe Charisma + spell level?
Hurricane, unlike the others, does damage. It does 1d10 each round + 10d6 at the end. Though you're right that the CC isn't as hard as the others.

Living Paradox: I actually think the flavor of this fits the Wild Mage perfectly. Basically their body is not really a body, but is mechanical, or galaxies, or something else crazy. No body and no blood = no crits, no disease, and no poison. I think this makes perfect sense! But perhaps my inspiration of the Impossible bloodline is the wrong inspiration for a chaos mage. Relativity and Distracting Pattern don't scream Chaos to me.
I think I'll re-examine some other options to see if there is more of a chaos theme to go with.

Slightly stronger than the PHB Sorcerer is my goal as that is rather weak in comparison to other classes (primarily Wizard). It sounds like you like the direction so far. :)

[SharkForce]

aberrant: i think trying to use "all aberrations" as an inspiration is a bit of a problem. when you copy from the GOO lock it makes me assume you're drawing on the GOO lock's source of inspiration, which is not mind flayers or beholders or aboleths so much as the ctchulhu mythos (which admittedly many aberrations also draw on for inspiration, but usually only in part). psychic damage is just the closest thing i can think of to sanity damage ;)

storm sorc: when i referenced 14th level, i meant flight. most of the time, you're not going to be parked right next to enemies in aerial battles, which means you probably don't need a 10 foot reposition or a 10 foot radius damage aura.

living paradox: the entire theme of wild magic is basically chaos. uncontrollable, unpredictable events happening as a result of your casting, probability manipulation, luck alteration, etc. even the name suggests shades of chaos.

anyways, i promised i'd come back to the level 18 abilities, and now that i'm back i will address the issue i have there.

basically, here's my problem: the effects you're describing are very powerful. which is not in and of itself a problem at level 18, of course. the problem is that the resource cost is wildly inappropriate. an AoE incapacitate + immobilize with no escape condition is vastly more powerful than the hypnotic pattern effect you're drawing from, but costs the same. and not only is it very inexpensive, it completely bypasses the limtation on the number of high level spells you're getting. i'd say the effects are at least as compelling as many of the symbol effects, but symbol has a 1 minute casting time and an expensive (and consumed) material component as drawbacks (though the symbol does also enjoy much more variety). and is limited to 1 use per day until level 20, when you can finally get a second use.

so not only are you undercosting the abilities (which is bad, but not catastrophic in and of itself), you're also allowing the sorcerer to use what are, practically speaking, at *least* the equivalent of level 7 spells (quite possibly 8, though not quite 9 since wish gives the full power of symbol with no casting time or material components while these are much more in line with getting only a single option from symbol with no casting time or material components) in basically every single fight. and that is something the designers have been quite careful to prevent to the best of their ability.

[Kryx]

Wild Magic is more chaotic now as I've replaced many of the wild magic features I had before with options from the protean bloodline as well as my own ideas.


__________

Aberrant: My inspiration is linked on the document - it's the Aberrant bloodline. Aberrant just means something exceptionally weird. That could be the aberrant creatures or cthulu style mythos as well. In general it's up to the player to decide what makes them "alien and bizarre". Slaadi are known as proteans in Pathfinder. I use Proteans (beings of chaos) as inspiration for Wild Mage so Aberrant shouldn't use the same source.

Aberration is such a mixed bag that doing it first was probably not the best idea. I think there is a lot of flavor to the alien mindset though and I think what I have is pretty close, but the identity is missing a bit. I'm going to put it on the backburner for now in favor of a more concise identity.

Storm Sorcerer: Flight is just flight. There is nothing more to it. If you're saying that "Tempestuous Magic" becomes unvaluable as soon as you start flying I don't quite agree. It becomes less valuable as less creatures can reach you, but it still has value if you're being attacked by another flying creature. Do you have suggestions for how to improve/replace it?
I'm still looking to refactor some of the things to have more range as mentioned above.

18th level abilities: I've removed the wild magic distracting pattern, but the discussion is worth having anyways. Hypnotic pattern is 3rd level spell that costs 5 points. Distracting pattern emulated hypnotic pattern in every regard except the break mechanic and also costs 5 points. I'd encourage you to look at PHB 252 to see how strong Hypnotic Pattern (a 3rd level spell) can be.
Emulating a 3rd level spell for the exact same cost at level 18 isn't unbalanced. I think the only difference was the removal of the break condition. With the break condition still there it was a rather worthless feature as it was available 13 levels ago for the same cost.

But lets look at some current level 18 abilities:
Aberrant Horror: This is harder CC than Frightful Presence - more in line with Symbol. This is rather strong.
Frightful Presence: This is essentially a large radius (60 foot aura vs 30 foot cone) of fear. Fear forces them to dash away. Fear gives a saving throw if they're out of line of sight. This doesn't, but possibly could.
Overall this is a slightly stronger 3rd level spell.
Hurricane: This is currently softer CC (though hard CC for nearly the whole Monster Manual who has no ranged attacks) and a bit of damage. It appears as the weakest of the bunch, but due to lack of ranged weapons on monsters could be incredibly powerful. I'm unsure if this is really the way to go with this archetype though. I continually come back to "Ride the Lightning" as a fun idea.
Spatial Tear: This is an escape followed up by a 4th level spell that has mediocre damage and great CC.

18th level abilities should be worth using. For the most part I'd say only Aberrant Horror is too strong currently, but that's only because it lacks an escape/avoidance like the rest have. If I add some kind of escape to aberrant horror (perhaps similar to the "get out of the aoe" like Frightful Presence) then I think they're all decently balanced with eachother.

Though perhaps instead of costing points they should be usable once per short rest.

[SharkForce]

i have no problem with level 18 abilities being powerful.

i have a problem when the level 18 abilities that are roughly equivalent to level 7+ spells can be used indiscriminately, when the designers have put in roadblocks to specifically ensure that you can't just spam those very high level spells all over the place.

edit: and just to be clear, i'm not saying that wild mages are chaotic. i'm saying that wild magic is chaotic. a wild sorcerer could *hate* the disorder that surrounds them, and it could drive them crazy that their magic keeps doing all these weird things. it could drive them to only use magic when they're desperate and all other options have been exhausted. nevertheless, their magic is chaotic, whether they themselves are or not.

[Kryx]

Only Aberrant Horror is based on a 7th level spell. The rest are based on 3rd level spells.

Though as I mentioned they should probably be once per short rest.

[SharkForce]

they're based on 3rd level spells but without end conditions like the third level spells have. meteor swarm is probably "based on" fireball to a large extent (and delayed blast fireball is unquestionably based on fireball), but because they're stronger than the spell they were based on they're higher level.

we already have examples of spells that shut down multiple enemies in a large area without an escape condition built into the spell. none of them are level 3. when it comes to spells that completely 100% shut down enemies from being able to act meaningfully in combat, you go even higher level. completely denying enemies in a large area from being able to participate meaningfully in combat with no way to end the effect early is *not* a level 3 effect.

[Kryx]

Hurricane does not do what you describe. The creatures are still able to act.
Spatial Tear does not do what you describe. It is Evard's (4th level) + dimension door.
Frightful Presence potentially does.

Now, I challenge you to make an 18th level ability that fears people, is not too weak, and is not too strong.
Some references: Intimidating Presence (Berserker Barbarian), Fear, Eyebite, Symbol (fear), Menacing Attack (Fighter Battle Master), Abjure enemy (Oath of Vengeance - lasts for 1 minute or until damaged), Avenging Angel (Oath of Vengeance - lasts for 1 minute or until it takes any damage).
This can be used once per short rest.

As you said frightened isn't a very hard CC condition.

[SharkForce]

again, i don't mind the sorcerer having an 18th-level fear (or whatever) ability that is worthy of being used at level 18.

i mind it if they can use it over and over. things that are the equivalent of level 6-9 spells shouldn't be usable as often as level 3 spells. especially when we're talking about how often a spell-point caster can cast level 3 spells.

if these were "1/day things" i wouldn't mind from a power perspective. yeah, they're powerful, but ultimately it's like getting an extra level 7 or 8 spell per day... that's an awesome ability, and will allow the sorcerer to perform very well in one additional fight per day, but it shouldn't ruin the game.

(though on the flip side, if they were 1/day, they would do a lot less to define the subclass unfortunately).

oh, and uhhh... hurricane pretty nearly does shut many things down. in hurricane-force winds with as much water mixed in as you seem to be suggesting, they'll have disadvantage on perception (sight and sound) checks, disadvantage on ranged attacks that originate from their own space, and won't be able to fly under their own power unless they're using magical flight (and maybe not even then).

(spatial tear is a new ability that is much less of a problem)

[Kryx]

July 28th, 2016 updates:

Added Celestial, Infernal, Undead, and Verdant Bloodlines. Mothballed Aberration for now.
Level 6 features are the power of a 4th level spell (available at 7th level normally) available on a short rest. Effectively extra spells.
Level 18 Features are the power of a higher level spell available on a long rest.
Moved Sorcerous Restoration to 9th level as a result of 6th level abilities on a short rest cooldown. With that and the 6th level feature it should be equivalent to the Wizard recovery.
Metamagic items slightly adjusted to pick 1 greater and 1 lesser (or 2 lesser), but comments should go in that thread. Only relevant because sorcerer gets it once for free.

I think the 18th level features are generally balanced. Spatial Tear is less powerful, but it's 2 spells in 1 so I think that's ok. They have to be once a day or we're breaking the high level spells restriction. We're already doing it slightly with the high level feature, but Draconic Sorc does that and others do as well so that should be ok as long as we don't allow spell points to cast it again.

Let me know if you have any suggestions for these archetypes or any new ones.

[Kryx]

Added Shadow Sorcerer. Shadow Lord (18th) is very similar to the undead one. The flavor of the shadows fits it even better than the undead one. If anything I'd replace the undead one, but I think it's fine to have the slight duplication. Several other things are very similar as well.

[Ze_Azrael]

I will start by saying that I am a fan of many of your fixes and shamelessly stole or was inspired by several of your houserules. I also like the variety of origins and how chock full of flavor they are.

That said, I think they're on the 'too powerful' side. Before, there wasn't much incentive to play a Sorcerer. I feel with your changes, there wouldn't be much incentive to play a Wizard. As a quick example, I'll compare the Undead Bloodline Sorc to the Necromancy Wizard as they have a very similar role.

From Base class
Sorc gets Metamagic, Spellpoint Flexibility, Extra SPs, SPs back on Short Rest.
Wizard gets Ritual Caster, the ability to copy spells they find, Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery.
Arcane Recovery works out to be fairly similar to the bonus SPs Sorcs get from Font of Magic, so they could be slinging a similar number of spells per day. Arcane Recovery is also limited to 1/day whereas Sorcerous Restoration isn't.
They both have the same Spell list (at least that's what I understood. If you just gave the Wizard list to the Sorc in addition to their own list, then Sorcs actually have a bigger selection now) and they're not egregiously behind in number of Spells.
Ritual Caster plus being able to copy and prepare spells is great, it gives the Wizard a lot of utility and flexibility. Spell Points and Metamagic give the Sorc a different kind of utility and Flexibility... these are hard to compare.
Spell Mastery is just an amazing feature, nothing else to say.

From Archetype
They both get Grim Harvest and Undead Thralls, but the Sorc gets a free extra casting of Animate Dead every Short Rest.
They both have Resistance to Necrotic, the Wizard gets this at lvl 10, the Sorc at lvl 3. The Wizard gets the added benefit of their HP maximum not being able to be reduced, while the Sorc gets the added benefits of Poison Resistance, AoE damage and a heal.

So far the Sorc is WAY better than the Wizard.

Wizards can control a powerful wild undead they encounter.
Sorcerers get a way to impose Disadvantage on attacks against them for one encounter every Short Rest; Resistance to BPS weapons; an AoE Fear plus DoT and BA damage, another way to impose Disadvantage on attacks but this one potentially against the entire party 1/day; their Resistances are upgraded to Immunities and they get Immunity to Poisoned and Frightened.

Now as I said before, Spell Mastery is an amazing feature, but I don't think its THAT good to make up for all of the above...

All the other Archetypes are in a similar boat I'm afraid. I feel you give 'Ribbon' abilities too big of a mechanical benefit and this results in a power build up. Another example that jumped out at me is Verdants have a Thorny Barkskin, the Life Cleric's level 6 feature but applicable to all kind of spells (and potentially heal for more), don't need to eat, drink or sleep much if they're not in constructed areas, and they get all of this at level 3

I think you can keep a lot of the flavor and ribbons without them needing to be so mechanically impactful and overload the class.

--

With that out of the way, I had a couple other random comments before I have to leave.

For the Dragon and Infernal Claws you might want to add whether the Claws use Strength or Dex and add the relevant modifier to their damage, unless its intended for them to deal a flat 1d8.

The Breath Weapon interaction with the Dragonborn would read better something like "If you are a Dragonborn, whenever you use your racial breath weapon you may choose to replace its effects with those of this ability"

I don't like how the Undead and Shadow have basically the same level 10 and 18 abilites. I love the Shadow Lord Aura (you might want to state whether the Grapple uses your Spell Save DC or what) but the Undead just feels like a weak ripoff. I had a wacky idea for the Undead aura to raise Specters (or some other type of undead creature) out of any creature who dies inside the aura. It's fairly unique and I think does a good job in portraying the spirit of the Archetype. Perhaps something along these lines plus some DoT?
For the level 10 defensive feature you could bring back the Undead Fortitude, maybe following the Long Death Monk's method of having to spend some Spellpoints to remain at 1 HP instead of 0?

Verdant's level 10 ability you might want to restrict it to CR 2+ creatures. Not that I think it's like super exploitable or anything, but it would be more consistent.

The Verdant's level 20 feature gives them half of their level 14 feature and has a really cool name that doesn't match what the ability does. I don't have any suggestions though...

There are other minor things that would be improved with an editing pass. I could volunteer but I do think you should give it another balance pass first.

[Kryx]

Hi Ze_Azrael,

I'm glad to hear that you like some of the previous things that I've done and thanks for providing feedback on this project!

Firstly I'm glad that you like the flavor - that was my intention when creating this Sorcerer Rework. The mechanics and balance are still in progress, but it's getting closer. More on that later. I'll do the easy stuff first:
Dragon and Infernal Claws: The wording matches other cases like Aarakocra. Effectively you use strength. They're really more for flavor than raw DPR. I consider those parts ribbons.
Dragonborn Breath weapon wording changed to match what you have.
Undead/Shadow 18th level abilities: This comes from the Oathbreaker. Both versions are very close to the original (with the alterations in fuschia). I created shadow after undead and I agree that the flavor fits shadow far better than it does undead (or Oathbreaker). Raising undead out of dead in the area is something you'd do after the battle has already been won - not such a great combat option, but could be useful before a final boss fight by using his minions against him. If we want him to be about minionmancy then that would be the option to go. Not sure that's a great idea though.

Instead I added that it can use circle of death or finger of death once per long rest. I added a line about breaking the grapple for shadow.

Undead level 10: Ya, I think the shadow form fits the shadow sorcerer better than the incorporeal form fits the undead. I've replaced it with the monk of the long death's ability, but it costs 2 spell points as sorcerers have way more of those than monks.
Verdant level 10 ability: Polymorph isn't limited by the CR of creatures. If you are able to convince little forest creatures to help you then worst case you get 5 CR 2 creatures.... Hmm perhaps 3 awakened trees or 10 awakened shrubs. It's effectively a 5th level spell which puts it in the same power as Conjure elemental which gives us a CR 5. This way still lets you use it to disguise your party members, but it can also be used to get some fighting trees on your side.
Verdant level 20: level 20 abilities are fairly consistent across the board with most offering immunities of sorts (see the archetype template at the end). The level 14 ability requires that you not move. Level 14 could heal for crazy amount of hp: 10/rnd for up to 50 rounds = 500 healing max.
I've fixed that by making it 1/short rest to heal for 4d8 = 18 on average = ~54 on a whole day.
Verdant's Regrowth: Regrowth isn't a ribbon feature. It is decently powerful, but compares to heart of the storm. Heart of the storm damages enemies within 30 feet for spell level + charisma if you cast thunder or lightning. Regrowth heals you for spell level + con (lower than charisma) on all spells. The whole package is ok - barkskin instead of mage armor as 1st. Brambled skin is more ribbony as you hopefully will not be getting hit much in melee. The internal balance here is ok, but you may be right about external balance in comparison to other classes. Thoughts?

Regarding overall balance:
The goal is that the Sorcerer fills a niche of exuding magical power - nearly everything about the class is about casting spells. Their "effective spell points" per day ends up being higher than other classes and many of their abilities trigger off casting spells.
I created Caster Comparison (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJAnGX7qgsPqpXv3h76QGGn5vmPgjU1bCzU-7kgBjvw/edit?usp=sharing) to give a better view of the casters. It should help me balance better and help others see the balance.
On page 2 of that sheet I compare Dragon vs Evo and Undead vs Necro. I made some adjustments below.


Reduced sorcerous restoration to lower. I forgot that Arcane recovery was 1/long rest.
Metamagic removed from sorcerer entirely
"Undead Thralls" renamed to "Rotting Thralls" for sorcerer and removed the line about being able to get 1 more undead (kept the other improvements).

Wizards and Sorcs share the same list, ya. There are about 5 spells that would be added to the Wizard. I actually wouldn't mind the lists being separate, but the gap is too wide. Perhaps I should instead identify the differences and move about 1/3-1/2 of the differences over to the sorcerer list.

Level 10+ is pretty balanced imo. The early levels are in the Sorcerer's favor, but I wonder if that should really change much.
In the Evocation vs Dragon case
level 3 the Sorcerer has lost 2 metamagic options and the hp bonus on draconc resistance in exchange for charisma on spells of the dragon type, darkvision 60, and claws(these are a ribbon)
level 7 the Sorcerer has lost the above, but has gained the breath weapon.

I don't think that is too much of a boost, potentially not as good. The loss of Metamagic definitely hurts as careful spell is no longer an option without a feat. On the Wizard side it can now take Metamagic which were previously unavailable.

If we compare the whole package to the Wizard the difference in versatility is still there. Wizard can swap his spells every day. At 7 the wizard knows 18+ and can swap them out to prepare 11. Sorcerer has chosen 8 and has 8 chosen for 8 for a total of 16 prepared that he cannot change until he levels. Seems like a fair tradeoff in that regard.

What do you think? Should I reduce the power of the 6th level features a bit?

[Ze_Azrael]

I'll do the easy stuff first this time too. I agree with the Wizard's advantage of picking their spells. I don't think you really need to reduce a Sorc's number of spells and I'll comment on the overall power and how to differentiate it from the other casters so there's still incentive to pick either later.

First, the Caster Comparison you linked isn't public, dunno if intended or not.

Archetype Template You're missing Shadow Bloodline.

Divine level 6: The damage is lacking a type, I assume it's radiant?

Claws: You're right on the wording. However I just noticed that you state they give you proficiency. I believe the Errata clarified that everyone's proficient in unarmed strikes. Also if they're meant to be mostly a flavor ribbon, perhaps toning them down is a good idea. They don't do much for the Sorc as they are anyways but they're amazing for a dip (Monks would love this). Most features that increase your unarmed damage take it to 1d4. Alter Self takes it to 1d6 (+1 Magic weapons) but as a second level spell that requires concentration. If you really feel this needs to be more powerful than a first level Monk or an Aaracockra (sp?) then maybe 1d6 but I think 1d8 (best simple weapon die) is just too much for a flavor ribbon not central to the Archetype.

Undead level 18 ability: Yeah it was just an idea to differentiate it, basically I pictured something like Spirit Guardians that immediately raises Specters (or some other minion) under your control for the duration whenever a creature falls in the area. I like that you changed it to differentiate it though.

Undead level 10: Does fit the flavor a lot better, but it just occurred to me that a Sorc has ~70 SP when they get this and ~150 at level 20. This means they could be next to impossible to take down if they wanted to. Perhaps add a maximum number of times they can do this or progressively increase the cost? Maybe add the "unless radiant or crit" other Undead have? Not sure, but being able to chill for 7 minutes in the center of the Sun without breaking a sweat seems too much.

Verdant level 10: I get that this isn't meant to be a super powerful / offensive feature, but Polymorph does have a CR restriction. This one isn't a balance concern so much as a consistency one. I do like the new flexibility of doing Trees or Shrubs.
The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating)

Wild Magic level 3: First, you begin the sentence with "Also starting at 3rd..." but this is the only feature they get at 3rd level. Second, you state on the template that this provides them with more Tides of Chaos (did you mean Surges?), but the way the ability reads is it emulates a spell, not actually casts it. I would clarify what your intent is, my guess is you mean they can cast Alter Self without expending a spell slot X times/day and this means more chances on rolling for Surges (and thus getting back Tides of Chaos), right?

Dragon level 3: I never liked how Elemental Affinity was heavily unbalanced in the element choices, and your bonus spells help ameliorate this a little. What I did was allow a Dragon Sorc to change the element of any energy damage spell to match their Bloodline X times/day (something like CHA or 1+CHA). This greatly opens up spell lists while keeping it from being a 'free pick whatever you want and forget about it' ability. A White Dragon Sorc can cast Frostball but they're likely still going to take Ice Knife. I also think it adds a lot to of cinematic flavor.

--

Ok so I think defining what your intended niche for the class is helps a lot. With the removal of Metamagic (which I agree hurts) I think we can say the class' shtick is basically "being able to cast more than any of the other casters". If that's the case, I think Sorcerous Restoration comes too late, or just doesn't fit. I get that they get an increase in SPs that effectively works out to be similar to Arcane Recovery, and that Sorcerous Restoration isn't meant to be that big of a thing but here me out.
From a design perspective, I think all Sorcs should share a common framework, even if they're more deeply distinguished via their Archetype. If the theme is they're this big battery of magical power that needs no recharging and can just keep on casting when other classes are expended, then Sorcerous Restoration kinda goes against the theme, requiring the Sorc to take a break to keep on casting.
If the theme is more that they're somewhat similar to a Warlock in that they can take a breather to rapidly recharge part of their magical battery (since Sorcerous Restoration isn't restricted 1/day), then having to wait until level 9 for this isn't awesome.
Either way I think it would be a good idea to define their intended niche and tweak the base class slightly to clearly get this across.

I think if you settle on a core niche the Sorc should fulfill, you can use that as groundwork to differentiate the class enough from the versatile Wizard or the jack-of-all-trades Bard, etc. so that each class has its appeal and place in the game.

Onto my point of overall balance. I won't argue the nitty gritty mathematics with you since you're better at this than most, but I'll try to give a more broader look into things.

The way your class is built I think the most analogous existing class would be the Cleric. Both are full casters with bonus spells, and they both provide a fairly bare framework on their base class that gets most of their distinctive gameplay elements from their Archetypes. Cleric Domains are very mechanically packed and drastically change the way a Cleric looks, feels, and plays. Bloodlines do the same thing while reinforcing the 'well of magic cast, cast, cast' theme.

Cleric gets the most Archetype features at 5. One of these (level 8) is consistent across all domains and feels almost like a customized Base Class feature. Sorcerer gets 7. A few of these (most notably level 20 and 14) are fairly consistent across all domains but they're more diverse in application than the Cleric's.

Clerics get
- Bonus Spells; Bonus Proficiency and/or some other way to differentiate them from other domains
- 1 powerful bonus spell-like ability in their Channel Divinity
- either 1 moderate additional CD or a different moderate ability
- the Divine Strike/Potent Spellcasting feature
- a powerful capstone ability.

Sorcs get
- Bonus spells; Defensive feature (AC, Resistance or HP); Bonus Proficiency and/or some other fluff-heavy feature
- a mixed bag of mostly damage (AoE), survival, and fluff. Of note is that you've given half the Bloodlines a way to add their CHA to damage
- a free spell or spell-like power of ~4th level power (one level earlier)
- moderate to powerful defensive feature
- mobility increase
- a powerful free AoE spell or spell-like power
- powerful defensive feature, sometimes with a decent bonus

Clerics (along with Rogues) are probably the class that gives double features (two abilities at the same level) the most. Looking at the existing double features, they all follow a 'rule' of sorts. The most prominent double feature is Bonus Proficiency, which is the case with Clerics. Rogues tend to get an additional way to use their bonus action.
Some of your double features follow a similar pattern, but some are just two independent decent features. What's more, you sometimes give triple features. You seem to have made double features because you ran out of space to add in flavorful abilities, or because you tend to create smaller sized abilities. As a suggestion, a few of these double features could easily be packed into the same one (the new Grounded and Verdant Ground for example) to make for a more cleaner and consistent class.

Independently, I think most of your features are fairly well balanced and flavourful, and I think you did a great job balancing the class within itself (bloodline vs bloodline). My overall feeling however, is that the class is overloaded and this makes it unbalanced when compared to other classes. You have made some really cool features and while a lot of them aren't game-breaking by themselves, they quickly add up.
I get that when you're making homebrew you just have so many good ideas and everything you add makes whatever you're designing so much cooler; it happens to me often when designing magic items and it's really tough to decide what to cut but sometimes I take a step back and look at the whole picture and realize I've gone overboard.

My overall suggestions would be to cut down the number of features (casters generally get spells as a feature and have nothing at odd levels) and to merge in double features whenever possible, it just makes a class so much easier to read. A specific suggestion would be to make the 'AoE damage when casting a spell' ability into a feat, since I know you play more feat-heavy games and casters could use more cool feats.

I think giving a full caster class that already gets bonus spells, a feature that is literally just 'cast this spell' is a little underwhelming. You already give them bonus 4th level spells, I would avoid giving them a free casting of one as their level 6th feature. If you're keeping this to go with the 'cast, cast, cast' theme, I like the spell-like abilities of Divine and Wild, or things that augment their spells like Undead Thralls better. This also applies to some level 18 features, especially because other Bloodlines get really cool and different abilities than just a free spell, and because this is effectively your powerful capstone.

You also seem to shore-up some of the Sorcs innate weaknesses (like AC) a bit much. I personally think having to play around one's weaknesses is fun.
Somewhat related, level 20's immunities are probably fine (and I usually don't comment on level 20 features cuz honestly, who gets there) but I think as representative of becoming the ultimate sorcerer, they might not fit the concept too much. "I am ascended! I can alter the very fabric of reality with a mere thought! Bow down to me, mortals, for I no longer get sick or poisoned!" Honestly you can leave them and I don't really have any qualms about them, I just find it funny.

Lastly have you considered making one Bloodline into more of a gish? They're a very popular playstyle, it would provide more diversity, and with 8 Bloodlines I think 1 could easily be tweaked to better support this. It was also the second UA sorc released. My personal choice would be the Infernal due to their transformation mechanic (not many things are as scary as a demon up in your face clawing you to ash) and because it seems the easiest one. It might be too similar to the Fiend being the most optimal Bladelock patron but eh.

This is all of course just my opinion and I'm giving mostly 'critique' feedback in a constructive manner. I agree the Sorcerer needs an overhaul, I really like your take on it and would likely use it to replace the Sorc in my own games.

[Kryx]

Made that comparison public, sry!

Added Shadow to the list of comparisons
Added radiant to celestial bloodline
Claws: This, by itself, is on the power level of a cantrip (one of the worst - compare ray of frost for 1d8 at 60 feet and slow for 10 feet) and is meant to be used like a cantrip. I can make it an action to prevent any multiclass issues.

As an action you can make an unarmed strike with your claws (for which you are proficient) which deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit.

Undead level 10: agreed, that was my concern as well. Monks can use it for 20 rounds though so that's 2 minutes. I'm surprised there is no limit there. Not sure how to add a limit though... Charisma times per short rest?

Verdant level 10: Ah, you're right there is a minimum CR for polymorph. Reworded:

At 10th level, you can you can transform willing creatures within 60 feet as the *polymorph* spell. You can transform 3 willing creatures who have a challenge rating or level of 2 or higher each into an Awakened Tree, or any 10 willing creatures each into an Awakened Shrub. The transformation lasts for up to 1 hour or until you lose your concentration (as if you were casting a concentration spell).

Wild Magic level 3: Removed "also". The wording was when I had moved part of it to level 1. I fixed it. In general the comparison is just for me working through the archetypes. I'll probably remove it at the end - not sure.

Dragon level 3: I agree that the elemental balance is not the best - hence why I added some more spells of different damage types. However I don't think opening up every spell to every damage type is correct on a flavor level. I would instead find Pathfinder spells to port for the appropriate level. Otherwise they could take Elemental Spell (from metamagic feats (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Hy-vX84M_)) to swap them over.

Strategy: 5e is flawed in that only certain classes need short rests. This creates problems of balance. Every class should benefit from short rests. It is my intention to have Sorcerer benefit from both short and long rests. Each Sorcerer gets a 4th level spell (6 Spell Points worth) per short rest which is very substantial. I had Sorcerous Recovery at 5, but with the 6th level ability giving 6 Spell Points per short rest (for only that 1 spell) I think it was too much so 9 is a better starting point. If you see the numbers on the comparison I put above I think you'll see what I'm seeing here based on the numbers.


------------------------
I'm running out of time to reply tonight, so the rest will be a bit short winded, sorry!

Number of features: Lets compare the full classes:

Bard: Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, Song of rest, Expertise, Countercharm, Magical Secrets, Superior Inspiration, 3 archetype features = 7+3 = 10
Cleric: Domains (Spells Prepared), Channel divinity, Destroy Undead, Divine Intervention, 5 archetype features = 4+5=9
Druid: Wild Shape = 3 tiers, Beast Spells, Archdruid, = 3-5+5=8-10
Sorcerer: Spells known, Font of Magic, Sorcerous Restoration, 7 archetype features = 3+7=10
Wizard: Arcane Recovery, Arcane Tradition, Spell Mastery, Signature Spells = 4+5=9
See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJAnGX7qgsPqpXv3h76QGGn5vmPgjU1bCzU-7kgBjvw/edit#gid=0

Sorcerer is within the normal range of total features. I purposefully do not want to cut down on the number of features as reducing them greatly reduces the flavor.


Independently, I think most of your features are fairly well balanced and flavourful, and I think you did a great job balancing the class within itself (bloodline vs bloodline). My overall feeling however, is that the class is overloaded and this makes it unbalanced when compared to other classes. You have made some really cool features and while a lot of them aren't game-breaking by themselves, they quickly add up.
I think you're getting a bit of sticker shock. Compare the amount of features I put above and the spreadsheet I made public and I think you'll see a different side. Maybe not.

Also keep in mind the class doesn't have metamagic anymore. You can effectively weigh the PHB Sorc + 10 spells like they should've had + 3rd level archetype + 10th level archetype + 20th capstone of immunities vs 4 metamagic options.

Double Features: For clarity these were split. For example Verdant ground can be used a certain amount of times and the heal can be used a certain amount of times. Those being on the same feature makes it hard to describe which recovers when.
There are only a few double features:

Dragon sorc level 1 claws are ribbons so not really a feature.
Dragon level 3 darkvision is such a small feature that it isn't worth a whole feature. Perfectly fine balance wise to put it next to cha to spells.
Infernal level 1: I can move Dark One's Blessing to 3 to stack it with darkvision
Verdant 1 & 3: When I created this I actually thought that regrowth was rather weak. I wasn't even aware of life cleric. Photosynthesis is entirely ribbon. Brambled could be part of thickened skin and just called out as starting at 3rd and regrowth moved to 3rd.
Wild Magic Surge & Tides of Chaos: Was already on the same level. I boosted both though, but as written under "More Surges" that seems ok to me.



I think giving a full caster class that already gets bonus spells, a feature that is literally just 'cast this spell' is a little underwhelming. You already give them bonus 4th level spells, I would avoid giving them a free casting of one as their level 6th feature.
If you look at the other 18th level abilities they are basically high level spells. They are effectively the same as giving a spell to cast once per long rest. It's even better for spells that are not normally available (such as Wall of Thorns).

As I have it now 18th level abilities are like high level spells.
In the few cases where it makes sense to use a spell directly instead of duplicating wording it's easier to write it as I have. Both options are super flavorful for those builds.


You also seem to shore-up some of the Sorcs innate weaknesses (like AC) a bit much. I personally think having to play around one's weaknesses is fun.
I'm just giving the class flavorful options. Sorcerer already has perma-mage armor in draconic so applying similar to shadow should be fine. Verdant only gets barkskin for a 1 minute after casting a spell so that should be fine (that's based on the PF bloodlines). It's not purposefully to avoid weaknesses. And AC isn't really a weakness as Sorc and Wiz can already learn/cast 1 spell to negate it.


Somewhat related, level 20's immunities are probably fine (and I usually don't comment on level 20 features cuz honestly, who gets there) but I think as representative of becoming the ultimate sorcerer, they might not fit the concept too much. "I am ascended! I can alter the very fabric of reality with a mere thought! Bow down to me, mortals, for I no longer get sick or poisoned!" Honestly you can leave them and I don't really have any qualms about them, I just find it funny.
That feeling is what level 18 is for. 20 matches the Pathfinder progression of getting immunities then.


Lastly have you considered making one Bloodline into more of a gish? They're a very popular playstyle, it would provide more diversity, and with 8 Bloodlines I think 1 could easily be tweaked to better support this. It was also the second UA sorc released. My personal choice would be the Infernal due to their transformation mechanic (not many things are as scary as a demon up in your face clawing you to ash) and because it seems the easiest one. It might be too similar to the Fiend being the most optimal Bladelock patron but eh.
And we haven't seen anything of it in a long time for a reason while Storm became official. Gishes that are casters fail in concept alone imo. For example the Bladesinger is a caster with a tiny bit of melee - so much so that they are encouraged to stay caster 95% of the time by nearly every forum post.

Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, or custom classes like Swordsage make much better gishes. Melee with a bit of spells. Spells with a bit of melee just results in always using spells.

[gkathellar]

It looks very cool at a glance, but before I get in-depth, I just wanted to mention that there's a formatting issues with the Shadow, Storm, and Wild Bloodlines where they spill into a third column. That makes their capstones unreadable for me.

Also, I'm curious - how do you envision spell points for some but not all classes working with respect to multiclassing?

[gkathellar]

So, critique. This may come across as a bit terse, but that's because I'm going to run through everything.

Run a quick ctrl-f on your text at some point, you've got several cases of "or" being written as "ar." Moving right along.

You include some new spells. Who are they for, other than members of particular bloodlines? I know, the 5E header is bad in that it doesn't communicate that, so either you need to modify it, or indicate somewhere who's supposed to get these spells.

Also, a whole bunch of your bloodlines gain fly speeds at 14th level, but none of them have the same speed. This strikes me as odd.


At 1st level, you know three cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer spell list and an additional cantrip from your Sorcerous Origin which is included in the number of Cantrips Known column of the Sorcerer Table.

Emphasis mine. I think this is a bit confusing, especially given that the Spells Known column reads as X+Y. Maybe have the cantrip column on the table read 3+1, 4+1, and eventually 5+1?


Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Emphasis mine, this is arcane due to the addition of spell points. Replace with, "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which must also be of a level no greater than your max spell level."


which do not count against the number of Sorcerer spells you know and are included in the Spells Known column of the Sorcerer Table.

Emphasis mine. The problem with this language is that you clearly do count them, on the table, where you have the +Y number of spells known. Moreover, it contradicts your passage from before about Cantrips known. Not a huge issue, but it is a contradiction. The easiest fix would actually be to keep the bolded language, cut the non-bolded bit, and strike both the +Y and the bonus cantrip from the table.


Divine Shield

You should either name this "Unarmored Defense" or specifically note that the two don't stack.


At 3rd level, you gain resistance to poison damage and you have advantage on saving throws against poison. In addition, whenever you start casting a spell of 1st level or higher that deals fire or radiant damage, heavily rain falls from the sky around you.

Emphasis mine. I assume you mean "heavenly?" Given the ability's text and naming, "fiery" might be a better word choice.


Blinding / Healing Touch
Starting at 6th level, you can touch a creature. That creature must make a Constitution saving throw.If it fails, the target takes 3d8 radiant damage and is blinded for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Constitution saving throw, ending the effect on a success.
Alternative you can touch a creature. That creature magically regains hit points equal to 3d8 + your Charisma modifier. In addition you can end either one disease or one condition affecting the creature. The condition can be blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned.
Once you use this feature you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest unless you spend 6 spell points.

This doesn't list an action, and isn't consistent with how touch-type spells work elsewhere, where they require you to hit with a melee attack (see: Vampiric Touch). Your language also needs cleanup - among other things, "you can touch a creature" is not a good way of starting an ability, because yes, I knew that, thanks. Suggested replacement:


"At 6th level, you may call on your celestial heritage in either its compassionate or wrathful aspects to heal or harm with a touch. You can use this ability as an action on a creature adjacent to you to restore 3d8 + your Charisma modifier of its hit points, and cure it of either a single disease or one of the following conditions: blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned.
Alternately, invoking your celestial wrath, you can make a melee spell attack as an action that deals 3d8 radiant damage and causes the target to be blinded for 1 minute if it hits. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Constitution saving throw, ending the blinding effect on a success.
Once you use either of these abilities, you must spend 6 spell points to use either of them again until you complete a short or long rest."


Seraphim Wings

Obnoxious nitpick: "Seraphim" is plural, "Seraph" is singular. Also, depending on your source material, a seraph has six wings that are always folded around its body, so there's that. Maybe just go with "Angelic" for the sake of simplicity.


Holy Nimbus

I worry that the blinding affect on this one steps on Blinding Touch's toes. Blinding is appropriate here, so maybe that should be changed to another, functionally equivalent condition?


Also at 1st level, you can grow claws as a bonus action. As an action you can make an unarmed strike (for which you are proficient) which deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit.

This feature's damage increased by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8 slashing), 11th level (2d8 slashing + 1d8 of the type associated with your draconic ancestry), and 17th level (2d8 slashing + 2d8 of the type associated with your draconic ancestry).

Language is a bit awkward, and it probably shouldn't be considered an unarmed strike in the proper sense due to the potential weirdness with monk, Extra Attack, and other things that will treat unarmed strikes as weapons, not abilities or spells. Also, no mention of being able to put away your claws, so that should be in there.

Suggested: "You can grow claws as a bonus action, allowing you to make a single melee attack (with proficiency) as an action, that deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit. This damage increases to 2d8 slashing at 5th level, 2d8 slashing + 1d8 of your dragon ancestor's energy type at 11th level, and 2d8 slashing + 2d8 of that energy type at 17th level. You can cause your claws to disappear at any time as a free action.


Draconic Sight
Also at 3rd level, you gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision, it increases its range by 60 feet up to 120 feet.

Emphasis mine. Cut this bit - some races have 30-foot darkvision, and some already have 120-foot darkvision. In either case, they can figure out how to add 60.


If you are a Dragonborn, whenever you use your racial breath weapon you may choose to replace its effects with those of this ability.

Nice call.


Infernal Form

Doesn't list a duration, or an ability to turn it off. A few more particulars:


At 1st level, you can use a bonus action to unleash the infernal essence within you and assume a demonic form.

Nitpick: Should probably be "devilish," since you've gone specifically with infernal and devils up to this point. You could probably make the whole thing into Fiendish Bloodline instead, to be honest.


As an action you can make an unarmed strike with your claws (for which you are proficient) which deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit.

This feature's damage increased by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8 slashing), 11th level (2d8 slashing + 1d8 fire), and 17th level (2d8 slashing + 2d8 fire).

Same concerns as Draconic Bloodline's claws, above, with considering this an unarmed strike.

Fix: "As an action, you can make a single melee attack (for which you are proficient) that deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit. This damage increases to 2d8 slashing at 5th level, 2d8 slashing + 1d8 fire 11th level, and 2d8 slashing + 2d8 fire at 17th level."


Devil's Sight

See remarks about Draconic Sight, above.


Hellfire

Seems a bit strong for a short rest ability gained at 6th level. Not sure how I like it, either - granting Hellfire as an SLA to a bloodline that already gets the same ability as a bonus spell is ennnnh.


Mastery of Death
Starting at 10th level, you use your familiarity with death to escape its grasp. When you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can expend 2 spell points (no action required) to have 1 hit point instead.

With no limit on usage, that is crazy strong. Make it once per long rest, and maybe even drop the spell point cost.


Supernatural Resistance
At 14th level, you gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons.

I always feel the usefulness of this ability (in this case and in core cases alike) is questionable at the level it comes in. How many nonmagical weapons are you really going to come up against by level 14?


At 3rd level, a host of wooden thorns burst from your skin while it is transformed by the Barkskin feature.

Emphasis mine. Replace with "Brambled Skin."


Massmorph

This feels kinda lame. Maybe replace it with a proper summoning move?

Anyway, that's it for now. I'll look over Shadow, Storm and Wild when you fix the formatting issues.

[Kryx]

Hey gkathellar,

Thanks for joining in! Regarding formatting: As the site warns it's really only optimized for Chrome. The distribution will be made via PDF when it is complete, but during development it's easiest to have it on that site. So perhaps open chrome and view it that way. Sorry for the inconvenience.

As it stands the new spells are only used by the appropriate archetype. They are not added to the Sorcerer list. You're free to use them otherwise.

Fixed:

"ar" is because the PHB has terrible OCR. There were only 2 of them. :P
Flying: Storm and Infernal are 60 feet. Draconic has been modified to 60. Celestial is meant to be a bit quicker (90).
Cantrips changed to 5+1
Spell slots learning at higher levels reworded
heavily fixed to "heavenly"


Divine Shield: I renamed it, but two different AC formulas never stack. Unarmored defense is 10+dex+wis. This is 10+dex+cha.

Blinding / Healing Touch: Your mechanics are very different than what I desire. The saving throw (and not the melee attack) is purposeful. The wording for curing a condition also purposefully matches lesser restoration to the letter, which your mechanical version has removed. Bestow Curse has the mechanical wording I desire: "You touch a creature, and that creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become cursed for the duration of the spell".

Here is what I've modified it to be:


At 6th level, you can heal or harm with a touch. As an action you touch an adjacent creature and one of the following effects occurs (your choice):


The touched creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 3d8 radiant damage and be blinded for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, a blinded creature can make a Constitution saving throw, ending the effect on a success.
The touched creature regains hit points equal to 3d8 + your Charisma modifier. In addition you can end either one disease or one condition affecting the creature. The condition can be blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned.

Once you use this feature you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest unless you spend 6 spell points.

Seraphim replaced with Angelic

Holy Nimbus: You're worried about an 18th level ability that is usable for 1 minute per day making a 6th level ability that is usable 1/short rest (or at the cost of SP) unusable? I'm not seeing it.

Claws: Ya, the options here suck. If I make them just like Alter Self then they won't be used after level 5. If I make them like alter self and scale then monks will take them. If I make them like cantrips they have to be actual spells. If I make them as I have they basically ignore the normal rules on unarmed strikes. Your version is the same result as mine. Not sure what the best option is here.

Draconic Sight: This wording isn't showing players how to add. It's setting a maximum. A dragon has darkvision 120 feet. This ability shouldn't let you see more than 120 feet. Devil's sight is the same purpose.

Infernal Form: Fixed to "You can enter this form as a bonus action on your turn. It lasts until you dismiss it as a bonus action on your turn.". Also changed the "demonic form" to devilish. I considered making the whole thing fiendish, but abyssal and infernal are different. I wanted to create an abyssal bloodline as well (as PF does), but there really isn't a lot of great (powerful) source material. Most of the demons sans Balor are rather weak.

Hellfire: Spell balance is linked to compare. Quick and dirty comparison: level 4 fireball does 9d6 (31.5) damage to creatures within a 20 foot radius. A 20 foot radius is 44 squares. Likely around 3.8 creatures. Hellfire as the 6th level ability does 10d6 (35) damage to creatures within a 10 foot radius. That's 12 squares or 2.4 people. Sure, in extremely rare cases you may catch some flying creatures, but that is incredibly rare and fireball can be positioned to go off in the air and be 40x40 while Flame Strike (and Hellfire) are always 20x40.
That said I'm not 100% happy using a 5th level spell scaled down to 4th level. It works fine, but feels a bit dirty. The spell is given as well as the scaling of the 6th level ability doesn't happen until 11. Something should adjust here a bit, but not sure how to manage it.
EDIT: I've moved hellfire (and flame strike) to 4th level which gives it much better balance. That solves this issue.

Mastery of Death: Open SCAG to page 131. Monks can do it 11 times per short rest. I think removing the cost and allowing it a number of times equal to charisma is the best option. I'll make that change.

Supernatural Resistance: That would be my concern as well, but if you look at the MM very few creatures have magical weapons.

Brambled Skin: Replaced with "this feature"

Massmorph: This is more of a utility feature. If it were to be a summoning feature it would have to move to 6 or 18 and be adjusted accordingly. This feature primarily would be used for espionage via trees or shrubs.

[Kryx]

Made the claws do 1d4, upgrade to 1d8 at 6, and at 11 they are considered magical and do an additional 1d8 damage.

Should be ok. Still very ribbony and not meant to be anything more than flavor and incredibly minor utility.

[Kryx]

Refactored claws again:


At 1st level, you can grow claws as a bonus action. As an action while clawed, you can make a melee weapon attack with proficiency. On a hit your claws deal 1d8 slashing damage. They last until you dismiss them as a bonus action on your turn.

This feature's damage increased by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (2d8 + 1d8 of the type associated with your draconic ancestry), and 17th level (2d8 + 2d8 of the type associated with your draconic ancestry).

[JNAProductions]

Refactored claws again:

Is that Sorcerer level, or character level?

[Kryx]

As claws are now character level would be fine.

[JNAProductions]

As claws are now character level would be fine.

No... No they aren't.

Sorcerer 1/Fighter 11 deals 3d8 damage with each attack, and has three of them.

[Kryx]

Read the wording above. They are an action to use, just like a cantrip. They cannot be used as part of extra attack.

[Kryx]

Infernal form claws just set to 1d6:

While in this form you have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against fire and poison damage. Also while in this form your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 slashing damage, and you are proficient with your unarmed strikes.
At 6th level your claws are considered magical.

I think that's a better option than trying to make claws work in some cases but not others.


On 6th level features:
I'm changing the wording and auto scaling. For example:

At 6th level, you can command a stroke of lightning to strike down as the thunderbolt spell.

Once per short or long rest you can ignore 6 spell points from the spell point cost. You can use this spell at a higher level starting at level 9.

The wording could probably use some improvement if anyone has suggestions.


Overall changelog:

Claws as above
Removed claws from Draconic and restored draconic resilience to RAW (hp is included)
6th level wording as above
Thunderbolt is now a spell and does 3d8 electricity and 4d8 thunder instead of 5d10. It is also on the draconic spell list at 7th level for lightning dragon types.
Dragon's Breath is now a spell and does 6d6 and adds 1d6 per higher level. It was a spell in PF so this seems natural.
6th level abilities added to spell balance to show their power level.
Specified which spells are added to which class lists

[Master Elodin]

Hi, just wanted to say I love the work you've put in here, and I'll definitely be using this version in my games. If I see anything odd or unbalanced I'll be sure to let you know, but it's shaping up nicely imo.

[Kryx]

Thanks Elodin.

Let me know if you encounter anything. I'm pretty happy with how it stands currently.

[gkathellar]

My new work computer has Chrome, so I took a second look at the remaining origins.

Storm and Wild look great, all thumbs up there.

Shadow is solid, although I have a few nitpicks about Shadow Lord. The use of the word "Grappled" suggests the normal grapple rules, so you may want to involve those, and make the Str/Dex check into a Str (Athletics)/Dex (Acrobatics) check, as per grapple. In addition, you may want to explicitly count the area as darkness.

[Kryx]

I added Acrobatics and Athletics to grappled as suggested. All similar spells use Restrained, but that is too strong of a condition in addition to the rest of the feature.

The area is purposefully not darkness (see Oathbreaker for the source idea). If it were darkness it would inhibit your allies and defeat the whole purpose of using it for protection.

[Zman]

Hi,
I created Kryx's Sorcerer (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SJkLv-WO) with the following changes:
Spell points used instead of spell slots to allow for much greater flexibility

Out of all of it, this I like the least. Spell Points are fine as a variant system in their own right, but it feels too flexible. Sorcerer already had limited flexibility with Sorcery Points, and if they weren't required to be used for Metamagic, they could have been the flexibility that was needed. Personally I'd rather just see sorcery Points increased with your Metamagic removal. Plus, potential high level spell slot abide. How would this work with Multiclassing?


Spell list expanded to now include the Wizard's spell list

Solid improvement in that goes a long way to shoring up the Sorcerer.


Spells known expanded to 15+10 from a set list which is still far less than the prepared amount of other 9th level casters: Druid's 25+8, Cleric's 25+10, and Wizard's 44+ spells known and can prepare 25+2

Great, I find your implementation of the bloodlines and their corresponding spell list great.


Metamagic extracted from the class.. I'd prefer the the class to not be solely defined by metamagic. Metamagic options are now available as feats. See Balanced Metamagic Options as Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495517-Balanced-Metamagic-(as-feats)-and-more-options-(PEACH)) if you'd like to see/discuss how that works.

Not a huge fan of splitting them off and I haven't gotten a chance to look through it yet. In principle it is fine as you have added quite a bit to help define the class already, just not to my taste.


Short rest minor spell recovery via Sorcerous Restoration which now gives a few points back on a short rest, but still pales in comparison to Wizard or Land Druid recovery.
6th level abilities make up for the lack of short rest recovery. They are effectively 1 specific extra 4th level spell per short rest.

Solid, the flexibility of some recovery is good.


Archetypes (Bloodlines) expanded from 4 abilities to 7 (capstone replaced so it's really just 6). The abilities are generally stronger and provide the vast majority of the flavor for the class.


I didn't get a chance to read throu all of the bloodlines due to it being painful on my tablet, but I liked what I saw.
A few notes,
Conviction felt a bit strong, reroll five saves a day dwarfs a Fighter's Indomitable and has other uses.
I'd just add AC=10+Dex+Cha as default to the Sorcerer Chassis.
Magic Resistance for Infernal is awefully powerful and equivalent to a powerful magical item.
The Nimbus and Shadow Aura feel a bit strong, but that is probably just a gut overreaction.
Shadowwalk is often going to be a 120' teleport every round at night, in dungeons, etc. make it Cha Mod per day or at least Short Rest.


I love the bloodlines, though have some minor gripe with some of the features and think you should just give them Cha unarmored defense stock on the chassis. I understand why you ripped out Metamagic and think you've given them enough flavor to compensate. I'm not a fan of defaulting to spell points and feel Sorcery Points would have filled the niche with Metamagic removed. Opening up the Socerer list to the Wizard list is nice, as are the flavor bonus spells, they really define the subclass. From a balance perspective I think it is solid with exception to the above noted, and I'm not set on them being unbalanced without some math and thought.

[Kryx]

Hey Zman, thanks for taking a look.

I'm glad to see that you like a majority of the core idea.

Metamagic: I reworded the reasoning here.

Archetypes are more defined. Archetypes have been expanded from 4 abilities to 7 (capstone replaced so it's really just 6). The abilities are generally stronger and provide the vast majority of the flavor for the class. (see the last page for balance of these)
Metamagic extracted from the class in order to allow for more defined archetypes. It also makes it easier to present the metamagic options to all casting classes if they are not tied to one specific class. Metamagic options are now available as feats. See Balanced Metamagic Options as Feats if you'd like to see how that works.

Allowing it on all classes was one of my primary motivations. Making Sorcerer archetypes more defined was another. Metamagic and more powerful archetypes can't co-exist balance wise so it was removed.

Spell Points: Regarding high level slot "abide" (I think you meant abuse): It's limited to the same number as the spell slots system.

Multiclassing with classes that don't use spell points is a bit more tricky. In my own game I'd allow them to continue progressing with spell points if their main class is Sorcerer. For actual written text I'm not sure there is a simple way to handle it.

Spell points overall are likely a personal choice. Perhaps not needed with my other changes. The idea was to allow for more flexibility as the class was slightly weaker, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. I did some reading (Spell points in play (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?414714-Spell-Point-Variant-in-Play)) and I'm inclined to agree with the cautions in that thread. It sounds great, but can be potentially unbalancing and since I'm already at level 10 (11 soon) it seems like a bad option. Plus I'd like to save points for Psionics. I'm going to remove spell points.

Metamagic removal is accounted for in the expanded archetypes so the sorcerer shouldn't get more points for that.

Conviction: Conviction is rather different from Indomitable. Indomitable, like Draconic's Legendary Resistance, allows you to reroll a failed saving throw. Conviction allows you to reroll an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw before knowing the result. Indomitable can be used up to 3 times per day. Draconic's Legendary Resistance can be used up to 3 times per day (reset on a short rest). Conviction can be used up to 5 times a day.
It functions similarly to lucky and Bardic Inspiration, but instead of granting a d6, d8, d10, or d12 it allows a reroll.
Bardic Inspiration can be used up to Charisma times per long rest. Perhaps Conviction should be once per short rest? Seems weaker than Legendary Resistance, but I guess it applies on multiple rolls. Thoughts?

AC = 10+dex+cha: Out of all the archetypes (8) only Celestial, Draconic, Shadow, and Verdant have some kind of armor boost with 3 different options. Sorcerer is not a Monk and providing it with a better option than monk isn't the best choice imo. Charisma is the Sorcerer's main ability score while it's the Monk's secondary.

Magic Resistance: So this is given as all devils have magic resistance - that's the reasoning. It's similar to Gnome Cunning (which is the same benefit starting at 1st level, but only applies on Int/Wis/Cha). Here is the rationale for balance:
This only works on spells. Based on my list of saving throws (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=0) that's 18 strength saves, 58 dex saves, and 43 con saves. Conviction and Indomitable work on all saving throws which is a longer list for str/dex/con and about equivalent for int/wis.

Enemy spell casters are won't be encountered as much as you'd expect. 9/20 from Curse of Strahd, 8/15 from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, 2/5 from Lost Mine of Phandelver, 94/454 from Monster Manual, 18/35 from Out of the Abyss, 26/42 from Princes of the Apocalypse, 1/7 from The Rise of Tiamat. Total of 158/578 = ~27% of enemy monsters can cast spells.

I'd be more wary of the idea if Gnome didn't exist, but the existence of gnome tells me that the designers didn't think having advantage against spells is too powerful. This is a step above, but is given at 10 and doesn't apply to many situations like Conviction/Indomitable/Legendary Resistance. Thoughts?

Nimbus: This is directly from Oath of Devotion besides the damage changes from 10 to 2d8 + charisma (averages ~14) and the blinded condition being added. The reason I added blinded to this (and grappled to Shadow) is because Sorcerer is a full caster while a Paladin is a half caster. I would expect their top ability to be a bit more powerful as a result.
Shadow Lord: Same as above. It's the same as the Oathbreaker, but with the grappled part.
Overall I think these two abilities are internally balance against the other 18th level abilities. Are there any that you think are weak?

Shadow Walk: Shadow Step (60 ft) is given to the Shadow Monk at level 6 with no restrictions and gives advantage to the first attack. This is given at level 14 (120 ft) without the advantage. So it is given much later, without a nice benefit (less nice for Sorcerer which is why it was removed), and can move twice as far. Seems ok to be based on Shadow Step.

Thanks again for taking a look. I underlined some parts above where I'd appreciate some feedback, though feel free to reply to the other parts as well as I may have missed something.

[Kryx]

Removed spell points - back to spell slots and sorcery points as RAW.
Moved Sorcerous Restoration back to 5th level instead of 9th. Adding some scaling to go from 2,3,4,5,6
Undead Mastery of death updated back to 1 sorcery point (Same as monk)
Conviction changed to 1/short rest from charisma mod uses



Rewrote the 6th level features cost:

Starting at 6th level, you can raise undead thralls as the animate dead spell without expending any spell slots.

Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest unless you expend a 4th level or higher spell slot.

[Zman]

Hey Zman, thanks for taking a look.

I'm glad to see that you like a majority of the core idea.


No problem, I was happy too.

I do like quite a bit of it, and Spell Points was my biggest point of disagreement.



Metamagic: I reworded the reasoning here.

Allowing it on all classes was one of my primary motivations. Making Sorcerer archetypes more defined was another. Metamagic and more powerful archetypes can't co-exist balance wise so it was removed.


Given your other changes and goal it is appropriate and balanced. I agree with this change in the scope of this class rewrite.



Spell Points: Regarding high level slot "abide" (I think you meant abuse): It's limited to the same number as the spell slots system.

Multiclassing with classes that don't use spell points is a bit more tricky. In my own game I'd allow them to continue progressing with spell points if their main class is Sorcerer. For actual written text I'm not sure there is a simple way to handle it.

Spell points overall are likely a personal choice. Perhaps not needed with my other changes. The idea was to allow for more flexibility as the class was slightly weaker, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. I did some reading (Spell points in play (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?414714-Spell-Point-Variant-in-Play)) and I'm inclined to agree with the cautions in that thread. It sounds great, but can be potentially unbalancing and since I'm already at level 10 (11 soon) it seems like a bad option. Plus I'd like to save points for Psionics. I'm going to remove spell points.


I agree with what you said here. Sorry about any typos, much of my early morning and evening responses are done from a tablet and I'm notoriously bad at typing on them as my brain is moving far faster than my fingers.

They definitely are more of a personal choice and including them is likely to turn some people away from the class as it is such a fundamental change in approach to spellcasting, requires more book keeping, and is an abrupt change right out of the gate. With your other changes it don't think the class is weaker anymore. I think this is a good change that will benefit your overall project.



Metamagic removal is accounted for in the expanded archetypes so the sorcerer shouldn't get more points for that.

Are you keeping the remaining Sorcery Points for flexible spellcasting and the ability to create slots? Or are you nixing Sorcery Points for the Sorcerer. If left, Sorcerer has a niche by being the best at Metamagic even though it is available to all casters. Nevermind, I see you already changed it, quick work!




Conviction: Conviction is rather different from Indomitable. Indomitable, like Draconic's Legendary Resistance, allows you to reroll a failed saving throw. Conviction allows you to reroll an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw before knowing the result. Indomitable can be used up to 3 times per day. Draconic's Legendary Resistance can be used up to 3 times per day (reset on a short rest). Conviction can be used up to 5 times a day.
It functions similarly to lucky and Bardic Inspiration, but instead of granting a d6, d8, d10, or d12 it allows a reroll.
Bardic Inspiration can be used up to Charisma times per long rest. Perhaps Conviction should be once per short rest? Seems weaker than Legendary Resistance, but I guess it applies on multiple rolls. Thoughts?



But, in practice there is a much narrower difference between Indomitable than Conviction. For many of the results and rolls you will have a strong indication or will outright know if you failed the save. Rolled a 4, well you know you failed that save, reroll it. It also benefits from being usable on multiple types of rolls. I think the once per short or long rest is fine and it is essentially balanced with Legendary Resistance.



AC = 10+dex+cha: Out of all the archetypes (8) only Celestial, Draconic, Shadow, and Verdant have some kind of armor boost with 3 different options. Sorcerer is not a Monk and providing it with a better option than monk isn't the best choice imo. Charisma is the Sorcerer's main ability score while it's the Monk's secondary.


I didn't get to Undead, Verdant, or Wild on my tablet. I don't see it as a better option than a monk, not at all. Yes, Charisma is the main attribute for Sorcerer and Wisdom is the Secondary Attribute for a Monk, but the main attribute for a Monk is Dex and that does affect AC. So, in effect, both Monk and Sorcerer can pump their primary Attribute for more AC, and the Monk pumps its Wisdom as its Secondary where the Sorcerer pumps either Dex for more AC or Con for better concentration saves and HP. I think at the least these are comparable features and does not naturally favor the Sorcerer. At game start with AC13+Dex it is equivalent until Cha is pumped at 4th and 8th, and even then you are looking at AC 17 or 18 unless additional Dex is pumped for the Sorcerer.



Magic Resistance: So this is given as all devils have magic resistance - that's the reasoning. It's similar to Gnome Cunning (which is the same benefit starting at 1st level, but only applies on Int/Wis/Cha). Here is the rationale for balance:
This only works on spells. Based on my list of saving throws (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=0) that's 18 strength saves, 58 dex saves, and 43 con saves. Conviction and Indomitable work on all saving throws which is a longer list for str/dex/con and about equivalent for int/wis.

Enemy spell casters are won't be encountered as much as you'd expect. 9/20 from Curse of Strahd, 8/15 from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, 2/5 from Lost Mine of Phandelver, 94/454 from Monster Manual, 18/35 from Out of the Abyss, 26/42 from Princes of the Apocalypse, 1/7 from The Rise of Tiamat. Total of 158/578 = ~27% of enemy monsters can cast spells.

I'd be more wary of the idea if Gnome didn't exist, but the existence of gnome tells me that the designers didn't think having advantage against spells is too powerful. This is a step above, but is given at 10 and doesn't apply to many situations like Conviction/Indomitable/Legendary Resistance. Thoughts?


Gahh, I forgot about Gnome's Cunning.... that makes me think it is more reasonable, but I still feel it is a bit strong. Your argument is compelling though, and I don't think it is too imbalanced as is.



Nimbus: This is directly from Oath of Devotion besides the damage changes from 10 to 2d8 + charisma (averages ~14) and the blinded condition being added. The reason I added blinded to this (and grappled to Shadow) is because Sorcerer is a full caster while a Paladin is a half caster. I would expect their top ability to be a bit more powerful as a result.
Shadow Lord: Same as above. It's the same as the Oathbreaker, but with the grappled part.
Overall I think these two abilities are internally balance against the other 18th level abilities. Are there any that you think are weak?


I don't have a problem with the damage, but the rider effects are awfully good. Shadow Lord.... you have a massive 60' radius, and always on Dex or be Grappled and lose have Move 0, you have an auto grapple target on each of your turns, and they have to spend their actions freeing themselves. Using your bonus action you auto shut down any single target of your choice, no save, nothing. Use bonus action to Grapple, creature must use its action to escape, if it does all it can do is move. Rinse, wash, repeat unless the creature leaves the aura, and you'll just follow on your turn. This thing is a once per day nuke that is often going to outshine even some 9th level spells in play.

Yes, the Paladin is only a half caster and the Sorcerer is a full caster, but that doesn't mean the Capstone should be orders of magnitude better and come two levels earlier to boot. I strongly feel that this is too strong. It is essentially a massive area control spell, area damage spell, and targeted lockdown for suck save for suck less. And it doesn't require concentration. What I would suggest is remove the Dex Save or Grapple and make it damage only, keep the draped in shadows, and make the active bonus action be a Dex save or be grappled, if they succeed you can't attempt to do it to them again. That seems far more appropriate to me.

Nimbus is fine if you make it a once they succeed they are immune for the duration. Save or get Adv/DisAdv hit every turn is pretty nasty. If all they have to do is save once it is still great, just not on the same level.



Shadow Walk: Shadow Step (60 ft) is given to the Shadow Monk at level 6 with no restrictions and gives advantage to the first attack. This is given at level 14 (120 ft) without the advantage. So it is given much later, without a nice benefit (less nice for Sorcerer which is why it was removed), and can move twice as far. Seems ok to be based on Shadow Step.


Sure, and if the Sorcerer was a monk Shadow Walk is balanced with Shadow Step, but a Sorcerer is a different animal than a Monk. Shadowstep is balanced on a Monk because the Monk is a skirmisher and needs to get close to deal damage or lock down a character, this makes Shadow Step movement for skirmishing or attacking and is balanced as such. But, for a Sorcerer you have a class that outside of a few niche builds does not want to be in melee and has a free unlimited use get of jail free card in many environments. The sorcerer becomes impossible to lock down with no resource expenditure, every turn it can simple get away from any melee enemy outside of their movement range and keep attacking. So long as you are in two of the most common fight scenarios, underground, indoors, or at night you kite everything. I don't see that as an enjoyable or balanced mechanic. I'd make it a once per short/long rest ability or Cha mod times per day.



Thanks again for taking a look. I underlined some parts above where I'd appreciate some feedback, though feel free to reply to the other parts as well as I may have missed something.

No problem, I didn't get a chance to dig through all the subclass abilities, but made sure to take the time to respond to all of this.

[gkathellar]

The area is purposefully not darkness (see Oathbreaker for the source idea). If it were darkness it would inhibit your allies and defeat the whole purpose of using it for protection.

Fair enough. Anyway, everything looks good. I give it my Seal of Approval (which is totally a thing, for reals).

[Kryx]

I didn't get to Undead, Verdant, or Wild on my tablet. I don't see it as a better option than a monk, not at all. Yes, Charisma is the main attribute for Sorcerer and Wisdom is the Secondary Attribute for a Monk, but the main attribute for a Monk is Dex and that does affect AC. So, in effect, both Monk and Sorcerer can pump their primary Attribute for more AC, and the Monk pumps its Wisdom as its Secondary where the Sorcerer pumps either Dex for more AC or Con for better concentration saves and HP. I think at the least these are comparable features and does not naturally favor the Sorcerer. At game start with AC13+Dex it is equivalent until Cha is pumped at 4th and 8th, and even then you are looking at AC 17 or 18 unless additional Dex is pumped for the Sorcerer.
I see your point and you're right about monk vs sorcerer AC, but as mentioned AC is only on 4/8 of the archetypes and in a few different flavorful forms. I don't want to make it part of the core class as it doesn't make so much sense on every archetype.


Gahh, I forgot about Gnome's Cunning.... that makes me think it is more reasonable, but I still feel it is a bit strong. Your argument is compelling though, and I don't think it is too imbalanced as is.
Overall I think it looks strong, but in actual play it'll be slightly more powerful than Gnome Cunning. In encounters with casters it will be very very strong. In encounters without casters it'll be worthless.


I don't have a problem with the damage, but the rider effects are awfully good. Shadow Lord.... you have a massive 60' radius, and always on Dex or be Grappled and lose have Move 0, you have an auto grapple target on each of your turns, and they have to spend their actions freeing themselves. Using your bonus action you auto shut down any single target of your choice, no save, nothing. Use bonus action to Grapple, creature must use its action to escape, if it does all it can do is move. Rinse, wash, repeat unless the creature leaves the aura, and you'll just follow on your turn. This thing is a once per day nuke that is often going to outshine even some 9th level spells in play.

Yes, the Paladin is only a half caster and the Sorcerer is a full caster, but that doesn't mean the Capstone should be orders of magnitude better and come two levels earlier to boot. I strongly feel that this is too strong. It is essentially a massive area control spell, area damage spell, and targeted lockdown for suck save for suck less. And it doesn't require concentration. What I would suggest is remove the Dex Save or Grapple and make it damage only, keep the draped in shadows, and make the active bonus action be a Dex save or be grappled, if they succeed you can't attempt to do it to them again. That seems far more appropriate to me.

Nimbus is fine if you make it a once they succeed they are immune for the duration. Save or get Adv/DisAdv hit every turn is pretty nasty. If all they have to do is save once it is still great, just not on the same level.
I don't quite agree with your claim here. Let's look at my updated comparison:


Celestial Continual AoE Light for light damage + blinded for 1 round. Somewhat similar to Holy aura. AoE CC lasts 1 round.
Dragon Similar to an 8th level spell with concentration (Antipathy), but it lasts for 1 minute instead of 10 days. Similar to Fear (3rd) and Eyebite (6th). AoE 60 frighten
Infernal Equivalent to a 7th level spell (Fire Storm) AoE damage
Shadow 60 ft AoE darker + grappled + small damage + enemies have dis on attacks + bonus action attack.
Storm Hurricane (AoE 30 hard CC and damage at end)
Undead Equivalent to a 6th/7th level spell (circle/finger of death) upgraded to 7th.
Verdant Equivalent to a 6th level spell (Wall of Thorns) upgraded to 7th. Enemy is cut off, or trapped, or can take a lot of damage to get through
Wild Magic Equivalent to 2 4th level spells Dimension Door & Evard's Black Tentacles as a 6th level spell


Nimbus: In that comparison I'm not seeing how celestial (Nimbus) stands out at all. The creature can still attack at disadvantage while Frightened forces them to move. Additionally the effect only lasts 1 round instead of 1 minute if they fail. AoE Save or suck for 1 round in this aura is perfectly balanced as a 7th level spell.

Shadow Lord: Grappled is one of the lightest CC options possible. The creature can still cast spells, make ranged attacks, or do any other action besides move. That is problematic, but not the end of the world for many creatures. This is a worse CC option of evard's black tentacles. The aura is 60 feet to be comparable to Frightful Presence.
If I were to add concentration then it should be stronger and give full restrained.

If we compare this to mass suggestion (a 6th level spell) for example then that is much harder CC.



Sure, and if the Sorcerer was a monk Shadow Walk is balanced with Shadow Step, but a Sorcerer is a different animal than a Monk. Shadowstep is balanced on a Monk because the Monk is a skirmisher and needs to get close to deal damage or lock down a character, this makes Shadow Step movement for skirmishing or attacking and is balanced as such. But, for a Sorcerer you have a class that outside of a few niche builds does not want to be in melee and has a free unlimited use get of jail free card in many environments. The sorcerer becomes impossible to lock down with no resource expenditure, every turn it can simple get away from any melee enemy outside of their movement range and keep attacking. So long as you are in two of the most common fight scenarios, underground, indoors, or at night you kite everything. I don't see that as an enjoyable or balanced mechanic. I'd make it a once per short/long rest ability or Cha mod times per day.
You do have a point that Monk doesn't have melee options and the Sorcerer would use this to escape. I'll adjust it to Charisma times per long rest.

[Kryx]

Storm Sorcerer switched Hurricane to Tsunami.

[Cognomore]

Thank you Kryx! This is awesome.

What do you think about "multi-classing" with different origins? Part of me thinks that it doesn't make sense b/c it is an origin ... and one can only come from one place. OTOH, I can see building a story where a character was born with dragon blood, but for some reason a devil takes interest in him/her and somehow shares it's powers with the character ... almost like MCing to a Warlock.

Do you think this could work?

I found a thread at stackexchange which suggested it wouldn't and a thread here that suggested it could, but might not be optimal (can't link to them b/c I have fewer than 10 posts).

If it were to work, how would you handle level advancement? Perhaps those features common to all sorcerers could continue to advance as they had been, but those associated with the new origin would restart?

[Kryx]

Hi Cognomore,

Sorry for the late reply - I've been on vacation.

Regarding taking multiple archetypes: I'm afraid I'm going to take the same stance as Crawford: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/23/can-i-multiclass-into-same-class/

I don't think it'd be easy from a balance perspective and questionable from a fluff perspective. Though you're free to use this however you'd like. :)

[Cognomore]

Gotcha. Makes sense. I'll need to figure out another way to try a couple of the archetypes you've created ... maybe twins who were each "empowered" in different ways? :)

Thanks!

[Master Elodin]

Hey Krix, I'll probably be starting a new game this autumn, and I'm putting your Sorc as the replacement for the Vanilla one so hopefully one of my players will try it out, so thanks for that!

One thing I wanted clarification on was your Metamagic Feat. When you take it for the second time, do you also get an additional 5 Metamagic Points? So, if you took it three times you'd have 15? Seems quite powerful that way, but equally a little underwhelming if you're stuck with 5 for the whole playthrough. Maybe there's a happy medium to be had here?

Anyway, thanks again for all the work you've put into this, you're one hell of a 'brewer!

- Elodin

[Kryx]

I've added a Fey Bloodline. Pretty happy with it overall. Let me know if you have any thoughts.

Master Elodin, I'm glad to hear you like the project that I created. :)
Regarding the metamagic feats I'd prefer to keep that topic separate. See Balanced Metamagic (as feats) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495517-Balanced-Metamagic-(as-feats)-and-more-options-(PEACH)). At post #18 I discuss the valuation:


The feat now gives 5 points. It would take 4/5 of a character's feats to get as many points as a Sorcerer had, so it should be ok. This valuation allows for a fair amount of uses (outlined below).

So for valuation:

For 1 feat a Sorcerer could either have +1 DC and +1 to attack and several other effects from higher Charisma or it can heighten 1 spell to have the target have a 30.3% chance to succeed instead of a 55% chance to succeed. They would have 2 points left over for lesser options like subtle, careful, or empowered.
For 1 feat a Wizard could either have +1 DC and +1 to attack and several other effects from higher Intelligence or it can enlarge 1 spell, and empower 3 others.

Empower would result in ~10% more damage. Enlarge maybe an additional creature so 5 instead of 4, so 25% more damage. Seems like a fair cost for a feat.

Feel free to reply there if you think this valuation is problematic.

[Cognomore]

Hi Kryx. Another Q for you.

When a 6th lvl Draconic bloodline sorcerer uses his Dragon's Breath ability, you mention that it doesn't require the use of a spell slot. Does the ability require a 50gp dragon scale as a material component?

I'm thinking no, but wanted to ask.

Thanks

[Kryx]

It's in the next line: "You can use the type based on your draconic ancestry without providing a material component." :)

Btw moved spells to a different sheet. http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJUmV-6I

[Cognomore]

Doh! Reading too fast. Sorry. :)

The link in the Spell Damage Modified section goes to your class based DPR spreadsheet. In there I found a link to Wiz vs. Sorc spreadsheet (that I can't link to yet).

Is there another spreadsheet that covers all your modified damage spells?


Do you think it would be very unbalanced if I used your reworked Sorc but didn't allow access to all Wiz spells? I kind of like the idea that the years of study a Wiz puts into magic yields mastery of more spells.

Thanks!

[Kryx]

I have Spells (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJUmV-6I) for the spells, but that does not include the ones with their damage modified. Spell Balance (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216) is best for that.

Regarding spell list: You're free to do what you'd like. In my opinion and the opinion of others the lack of spells on the Sorcerer list vs the Wizard list is a rather large problem. The Sorcerer is already limited by the number of spells known while a Wizard can change any of his 44+ spells known on a daily basis to better prepare for scenarios. Sorcerer has 164 spells, a Wizard has 257. That's rather ridiculous imo.

Here are some examples from spells A-C:

Absorb Elements
Alarm
Animate Dead
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Arcane Eye
Arcane Lock
Astral Projection
Beast Bond
Bestow Curse
Bigby's Hand
Clone
Conjure Elemental
Conjure Minor Elementals
Contact Other Plane
Contingency
Continual Flame
Control Water
Control Weather
Create Undead


Control Winds is on the Sorcerer list, but not control weather? Sorcerers, who can specialize in elements, can't summon elementals or absorb them? Sorcerers, who are more of a nature class than a Wizard, can't bond with beasts? There are many more on that list as well. The Sorcerer will likely not learn spells like Continual flame and some other options, but their list is far too restricted as it stands.

The Wizard already masters more spells via their class feature of spell mastery as well as being able to learn far far more. The spell list doesn't need to be restricted as well.

[Cognomore]

Wow. Spell Balance is amazing. You've quantified so many of the qualitative factors that go into the efficacy of spells.

I was at first surprised by the relative strength of some of the spells (e.g., Witch Bolt vs. Burning Hands), but after digging into the formulas it makes sense. How did you come up with the values in Spell Settings (in particular those related to AoE spells and Conditions)?

Thanks for sharing more about your reasoning for allowing Sorcs to learn Wiz spells. It makes a lot of sense.

[Kryx]

Spell Balance has been a process. You can see an older version in a tab as well - it was more rudimentary.

I think the spreadsheet does a great job for the most part, but it can't account for some things. For example Witch Bolt would be a pretty good option if cantrips didn't exist, but they do so it's a terrible spell once you hit level 11. Even potentially before that unless you're really trying to conserve resources. That's why I added the grapple bit - to make it actually somewhat useful.

Spell Settings is full of lots of values so I'll try to give a general response: For AoE for example I looked at fireball which is a 20 foot radius AoE and I then fiddled with some exponential multipliers until I got a number close to what I would expect as a result. The result in this case expects about 3.8 enemies on average in a Fireball which seems pretty accurate overall. I setup a fireball and then laid out typical scenarios and that number rang true. I did the same for lines and those can be targeted to not hit allies much easier - hence the higher multiplier. I did similar scenarios with Lightning Bolt to see how many would be hit commonly. Point blank AoEs will typically hit less than AoEs due to range and targeting. Cones are a bit like lines, but can hit allies easier and typically aren't as long. Walls are like ranged lines so they're the best.

Failure rates are pure math based on MM math. Same with hits.

Action, Duration, Repeat was all experimentation. The result is options that don't move like cloud of daggers will typically hit 1.5 types (or 1.35 times if concentration impacts it). Seems fairly accurate as creatures will typically avoid those kind of zones. For repeat actions it uses the same math as being stationary and then adds on more value for being able to be used again. See Melf's Minute Meteors or Flaming Sphere for examples.

For Conditions I made them pure multipliers. Effectively this just piggy-backs on the current math without me having to recalculate the number of people hit and the save chance, etc. This again was an experimentation process, but I barely adjusted the multiplier values at all to get the current result.


It's not perfect, but it's pretty accurate in most cases imo.

[Grey Watcher]

I haven't had a chance to finish the document, but one little typo jumped out at me that no one else seems to have pointed out:


Starting at 1st level, you can use a bonus action on your turn to turn invisible, immediately after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. The invisibility lasts until the end of your turn or until you attack or cast a spell.

You can use this feature before you cast a spell of 1st level or higher a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (a minimum of once). You regain any expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Emphasis mine

Just a little confusing because, as worded, it's unclear if the caster gets to go invisible just before they cast the spell, just after, or if it's their choice upon casting.

[Kryx]

Just a little confusing because, as worded, it's unclear if the caster gets to go invisible just before they cast the spell, just after, or if it's their choice upon casting.
I cleaned up the wording:


Starting at 1st level, you can use a bonus action on your turn to turn invisible, immediately after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. The invisibility lasts until the end of your turn or until you attack or cast a spell.

You can also use this feature immediately before you cast a spell of 1st level or higher, but once you use this feature before the spell is cast, you can't use it before the spell is cast again until you finish a short or long rest.

[Strill]

Spell list expanded to now include the Wizard's spell list as the normal list was rather lacking in many key spells.I don't agree, because this contradicts lore. A Sorcerer's magic is inherent, and is mastered through force of will, not intricate construction. It makes no sense that they would be able to cast highly contrived spells like Magic Circle, which is useless on its own, or Glyph of Warding, which relies on inscribing an intricate symbol. When you give them these spells, you damage class identity.

[Kryx]

I don't agree, because this contradicts lore. A Sorcerer's magic is inherent, and it makes no sense that they would be able to cast highly contrived spells like Magic Circle, which is useless on its own, or Glyph of Warding, which relies on inscribing an intricate symbol. When you give them these spells, you damage class identity.
The class identity is exactly the same now as it was in 3.X: a variant Wizard. In 3.X Sorcerers and Wizards shared the same spell list.


But if we ignore the old and look at it from a fresh please see the post above:

I have Spells (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJUmV-6I) for the spells, but that does not include the ones with their damage modified. Spell Balance (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216) is best for that.

Regarding spell list: You're free to do what you'd like. In my opinion and the opinion of others the lack of spells on the Sorcerer list vs the Wizard list is a rather large problem. The Sorcerer is already limited by the number of spells known while a Wizard can change any of his 44+ spells known on a daily basis to better prepare for scenarios. Sorcerer has 164 spells, a Wizard has 257. That's rather ridiculous imo.

Here are some examples from spells A-C:

Absorb Elements
Alarm
Animate Dead
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Arcane Eye
Arcane Lock
Astral Projection
Beast Bond
Bestow Curse
Bigby's Hand
Clone
Conjure Elemental
Conjure Minor Elementals
Contact Other Plane
Contingency
Continual Flame
Control Water
Control Weather
Create Undead


Control Winds is on the Sorcerer list, but not control weather? Sorcerers, who can specialize in elements, can't summon elementals or absorb them? Sorcerers, who are more of a nature class than a Wizard, can't bond with beasts? There are many more on that list as well. The Sorcerer will likely not learn spells like Continual flame and some other options, but their list is far too restricted as it stands.

The Wizard already masters more spells via their class feature of spell mastery as well as being able to learn far far more. The spell list doesn't need to be restricted as well.

[Strill]

I don't see any contradictions. The spells you mention are consistent with what I said. A Sorcerer's magic is powered by force of will, not complex study. That's why Sorcerer spells have simple effects, and none of the nuanced, intricate, or multi-stage spells that Wizards have like Contingency or Glyph of Warding.

Pushing water around is much simpler than changing complex weather patterns.

Making an explosion with Fireball is much simpler than conjuring an elemental from another plane and binding it to your will.

Sorcerers have no particular affinity with nature, so I don't see why Beast Bond is relevant.

I agree Sorcerers need a buff but I think that giving them the same spell list as the Wizard not only makes no sense from a fluff perspective, but is defeating the point of having them as a separate class in the first place, since at that point there's nothing to make them unique.


The class identity is exactly the same now as it was in 3.X: a variant Wizard. In 3.X Sorcerers and Wizards shared the same spell list.Mechanically sorcerers were a variant wizard, but this contradicted the fluff and premise of the sorcerer, which is why it was changed in 5e.

[Kryx]

I don't see any contradictions. The spells you mention are consistent with what I said. A Sorcerer's magic is powered by force of will, not complex study. That's why Sorcerer spells have simple effects, and none of the nuanced, intricate, or multi-stage spells that Wizards have like Contingency or Glyph of Warding.
You've chosen to label Sorcerers as the "basic" caster, much like WotC did in 5e. I soundly reject that characterization as I do not subscribe to the idea that the Sorcerer is unable to cast more complex spells because of the way they learn them. By that argument you should make them 5th level casters as their simple minds cannot comprehend complex magic. That view of a Sorcerer is not the Sorcerer I know and love.

Beyond that - a Bard knows Glyph of Warding. You can't tell me that a Sorcerer is too simple minded, but a Bard is smart enough to figure out how that works..


Pushing water around is much simpler than changing complex weather patterns.

Making an explosion with Fireball is much simpler than conjuring an elemental from another plane and binding it to your will.
The sorcerer literally has an archetype for storms and yet doesn't know the basic spells to deal with storms (Control Weather, Control Water, etc). The wizard has no connection with them other than "I'm a Wizard, of course I know nearly every spell".
One could argue that neither class should have those options, but that's simply not the case.


Sorcerers have no particular affinity with nature, so I don't see why Beast Bond is relevant.
And the Wizard does? Sorcerers have far more affinity with nature, historically. They live in cities and wilderness while a Wizard lives in a tower.

Beast Bond is relevant because it's an example of a spell that is on the Wizard list (unjustifiably, most likely), but isn't on the Sorcerer list (far more justifiable than the Wizard). There are many examples of this.


I agree Sorcerers need a buff but I think that giving them the same spell list as the Wizard not only makes no sense from a fluff perspective, but is defeating the point of having them as a separate class in the first place, since at that point there's nothing to make them unique.
Then take the parts you like and leave the parts you don't. I agree that it would be nice to have different lists, but the result would be adding half or more of the missing Wizard spells to the Sorcerer list anyways.

257 to 164 = 93 spells. That's far too many


There are some examples where this makes sense - Leomund's Secret Chest for example. But Grease for example is well within a Sorcerer's wheelhouse. As are all the named spells like Melf's Acid Arrow or Melf's Minute Meteors. The Sorcerer has been pidgeonholed into a blaster role in 4e and some of that carries over into 5e, and yet it doesn't even have access to several good blasting spells.
Sure, a guy named Melf may have "discovered" the spell, but a character that inherently learns magic wouldn't know that - they would just manifest the spells inherently. Perhaps Melf learned it from a Sorcerer!

[Strill]

You've chosen to label Sorcerers as the "basic" caster, much like WotC did in 5e. I soundly reject that characterization as I do not subscribe to the idea that the Sorcerer is unable to cast more complex spells because of the way they learn them. By that argument you should make them 5th level casters as their simple minds cannot comprehend complex magic. That view of a Sorcerer is not the Sorcerer I know and love.This is what I'm talking about. A Sorcerer's magic has nothing to do with their ability to comprehend anything. Wizards are the ones who comprehend magic. Sorcerers ARE magic. A Sorcerer's magic is intuitive, not something studied.

If you want a niche for sorcerers that fits the concept, then they should have an emphasis on self-buffs. Stuff like the Investiture spells. Maybe even expand on the passive buffs they get, like the scales and wings Dragon sorcerers get. Focus on the fact that they're made of magic and are magical creatures.


Beyond that - a Bard knows Glyph of Warding. You can't tell me that a Sorcerer is too simple minded, but a Bard is smart enough to figure out how that works..It's nothing to do with being simple-minded. The way each of them approaches magic is fundamentally different. A Wizard's formulae and experiments are completely different from a Bard's primeval music of creation, which in turn is completely different from a Sorcerer's inborn power which they control like a part of their body. The Sorcerer's method of using magic is less intricate because it's a part of themselves, not some mechanism they can just tinker with and replace on a whim.


The sorcerer literally has an archetype for storms and yet doesn't know the basic spells to deal with storms (Control Weather, Control Water, etc). The wizard has no connection with them other than "I'm a Wizard, of course I know nearly every spell".
One could argue that neither class should have those options, but that's simply not the case.I think a lot of archetypes deserve expanded spell lists in general. Take the Light Cleric, who can't cast Sunbeam or Sunburst for some reason.


And the Wizard does? Sorcerers have far more affinity with nature, historically. They live in cities and wilderness while a Wizard lives in a tower.

Beast Bond is relevant because it's an example of a spell that is on the Wizard list (unjustifiably, most likely), but isn't on the Sorcerer list (far more justifiable than the Wizard). There are many examples of this.
Wizards have a negative affinity to nature. Sorcerers have no affinity to nature. That doesn't mean that Sorcerers have a positive affinity to nature.

Also, I don't see Beast Bond anywhere on the Wizard list.


Then take the parts you like and leave the parts you don't. I agree that it would be nice to have different lists, but the result would be adding half or more of the missing Wizard spells to the Sorcerer list anyways.

257 to 164 = 93 spells. That's far too many


There are some examples where this makes sense - Leomund's Secret Chest for example. But Grease for example is well within a Sorcerer's wheelhouse. As are all the named spells like Melf's Acid Arrow or Melf's Minute Meteors. The Sorcerer has been pidgeonholed into a blaster role in 4e and some of that carries over into 5e, and yet it doesn't even have access to several good blasting spells.
Sure, a guy named Melf may have "discovered" the spell, but a character that inherently learns magic wouldn't know that - they would just manifest the spells inherently. Perhaps Melf learned it from a Sorcerer!

I'll concede Grease. I'll also concede the Sorcerers deserve some exclusive spells of their own, but I think keeping the named spells for Wizards only makes sense. Sorcerers shouldn't spontaneously develop a spell that's exactly like some other famous spell.

[Kryx]

If you want a niche for sorcerers that fits the concept, then they should have an emphasis on self-buffs. Stuff like the Investiture spells. Maybe even expand on the passive buffs they get, like the scales and wings Dragon sorcerers get. Focus on the fact that they're made of magic and are magical creatures..
You're welcome to build that Sorcerer. This is the version I use and suggest others do so as well.


It's nothing to do with being simple-minded. The way each of them approaches magic is fundamentally different. A Wizard's formulae and experiments are completely different from a Bard's primeval music of creation, which in turn is completely different from a Sorcerer's inborn power which they control like a part of their body. The Sorcerer's method of using magic is less intricate because it's a part of themselves, not some mechanism they can just tinker with and replace on a whim.
A different approach to magic does not mean they cannot handle complex spells. I soundly reject that view that WotC has used in 4e/5e. Different lists, sure, but they can handle complexity better than a Warlock or Bard can. Both of those classes get plenty of complex spells.


Also, I don't see Beast Bond anywhere on the Wizard list.
Entirely my mistake in this regard. It's a bit difficult to see the different lists side by side and my data had one item incorrect (Beast Bond).


I'll concede Grease. I'll also concede the Sorcerers deserve some exclusive spells of their own, but I think keeping the named spells for Wizards only makes sense. Sorcerers shouldn't spontaneously develop a spell that's exactly like some other famous spell.
This issue is about mechanical balance, not flavor. Mechanically Sorcerers were pushed to be a blaster in 4e while a Wizard remained a controller. In 5e a lot of that belief still exists - you see it in most Sorcerer builds. But Sorcerers don't even have access to some of the best blasting spells (Melf's Minute Meteors for example). I can't get behind mechanical imbalance, which is why I created this whole rework in the first place. As mentioned above you could easily have these name spells be studied from a Sorcerer who inherently manifested the spell - that makes total flavor sense.

I'd be fine meeting at a midway point between what it is now (164) and what Wizard is (256), but I doubt my choices would make you happy there either.
In practice giving the whole spell list will very rarely result in a Sorcerer taking an esoteric spell as they have far fewer slots and cannot change them very much.

[Cognomore]

Jumping back a few posts.



I think the spreadsheet does a great job for the most part, but it can't account for some things. For example Witch Bolt would be a pretty good option if cantrips didn't exist, but they do so it's a terrible spell once you hit level 11. Even potentially before that unless you're really trying to conserve resources. That's why I added the grapple bit - to make it actually somewhat useful.

Spell Settings is full of lots of values so I'll try to give a general response:

Failure rates are pure math based on MM math. Same with hits.

It's not perfect, but it's pretty accurate in most cases imo.

Gotcha. Very helpful. Thank you.

What's "MM math"?


On the topic of available spells, I think I'll work with my DM to find the right balance for us. I see both sides of this argument and think it might come down to a spell by spell discussion. What's most important to me is that your recasting of a sorcerer opened the door to this discussion.

[Kryx]

MM Math = Monster Manual math.

On the topic of spell selection: All the named spells published in Elemental Evil are available to Sorcerer. Aganazzar's scorcher, Maximilian's earthen grasp, Snilloc's snowball swarm, Melf's minute meteors, and Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting are all available to the Sorcerer.
So the named argument doesn't have full backing - and possibly since EE is published later it is the direction they meant all along.

[Laserlight]

Heavenly Rain
In addition, whenever you start casting a spell of 1st level or higher that deals fire or radiant damage, heavenly rain falls from the sky around you. This rain causes a number of creatures of your choice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature) that you can see within 30 feet of you to take fire or radiant damage (choose each time this ability activates) equal to the spell's level + your Charisma Modifier.

As written, it looks to me as if you must do damage to an ally if you don't have an enemy handy.

[Kryx]

As written? As intended!!! :P

I removed the "minimum of 1" part. Thanks!

[TheConflicted]

This is pretty dang cool, as I mentioned on Reddit. All your stuff is. The only thing I have to add is, is there a typo on the Sorcery points? Because at 5th level, it still shows it having four points. SHouldn't in be five? Anyway, thanks. I've had loads of fun with this, and my players have too.

[Kryx]

Thanks for the kind words. 5th level should correctly have 5 sorcery points now.
Thanks for pointing it out!

[Arkhios]

May I suggest star bloodline? Something related to the Great Old Ones. 4th edition, if I recall correctly, had that one.

You could have a origin feature: Star-Lord :smalltongue:

[Kryx]

May I suggest star bloodline? Something related to the Great Old Ones. 4th edition, if I recall correctly, had that one.

You could have a origin feature: Star-Lord :smalltongue:
Hi Arkhios, sorry for the delay in responding.

I considered doing a star type of sorcerer based on 4e's star sorcerer. I may do it in the future, but right now I'm a bit too busy to focus on that.

[Arkhios]

Hi Arkhios, sorry for the delay in responding.

I considered doing a star type of sorcerer based on 4e's star sorcerer. I may do it in the future, but right now I'm a bit too busy to focus on that.

Aren't we all sometimes. No rush, just a half-humorous thought, is all. :smallbiggrin:

[TheConflicted]

I only just now realized this, but under spellcasting, it says a sorcerer learns 2 first level spells. But the class progression box shows you learn 4. I assume the former is correct because other comparisons on the Psion show a smaller number. Although my players and I have enjoyed the extra few spells.

[TheConflicted]

I only just now realized this, but under spellcasting, it says a sorcerer learns 2 first level spells. But the class progression box shows you learn 4. I assume the former is correct because other comparisons on the Psion show a smaller number. Although my players and I have enjoyed the extra few spells.

Nevermind, I seem to be using an older version with some typos.

[Kryx]

Kryx's Spell Points Sorcerer (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxGh_mU9ihaPcGV5ai1OZjJyWEk) is the main version that I maintain now.

I removed the extra spells known to maintain balance as part of my caster comparison spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJAnGX7qgsPqpXv3h76QGGn5vmPgjU1bCzU-7kgBjvw/edit#gid=2077828504). Primarily for the balance of effective spells prepared.

[MrLockie]

Hello, I just came across this and so far I love it!

but just a question, Don't you think the spell thunderbolt is a bit OP for a 4th level spell that can be cast at level 6?

I'm not an expert on D&D and 5e is my first edition but I think convincing my DM that 12d6 damage is reasonable at that level might be a bit difficult.

and also with using sorcery points is there no limit to how many spells of the same level you can cast (below 6th) assuming you dont run out of spell points? so for example at level 5 you can cast 5 3rd level spells where as with spell slots you can only cast 2. is that how its meant to be?

[Kryx]

Hi MrLockie,

I'm going to break down your post into 3 questions that I believe are utimately what you're asking

#1 Is Thunderbolt abnormally powerful for my rework's archetypes?
All archetypes receive the equivalent of a 4th level spell as their 6th level feature (see the Archetype Template at the end) so this is consistent with the other archetypes

#2 Is Thunderbolt too powerful for a 4th level spell?
By my Spell Balance calculations (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216) Thunderbolt is doing equivalent level spell damage. The AoE is only a 10 foot radius so that's quite small.

Seeing 12d6 and saying "that's too strong" too limited of a view to properly determine the balance of a spell.

Some RAW spells:
Vitriolic Sphere does 10d4 (25) damage on its initial, and 5d4 (12.5) on its secondary. That's 37.5 damage in an AoE 20 which I estimate to be about 3.8 creatures on average.
Wall of Fire does 5d8 (22.5) damage on its initial and lasts for 1 minutee on a huge wall. For large combats this spell is far more effective.

Now, all of that said, the RAW burst of Thunderbolt is probably too high (42 on a failed save, 21 on a successful one). I had the same problems with Flame Strike in that the AoE was so small that the damage had to be higher - so I adjusted the AoE of that spell.

Increasing the AoE to 15 is probably a better balance point. That will allow for less burst. 10d6 is 35 on a failed save, or 17.5 on a successful one.

I'll adjust Thunderbolt to be AoE 15 and 10d6.

#3 Should Sorcerers have access to one 4th level spell at 6th level (1 level earlier than normal)?
4th level spells were the most flavorful options for the archetypes I used. One level early is nice, but honestly won't break much, if at all as it is once per long rest.



and also with using sorcery points is there no limit to how many spells of the same level you can cast (below 6th) assuming you dont run out of spell points? so for example at level 5 you can cast 5 3rd level spells where as with spell slots you can only cast 2. is that how its meant to be?
Using the Spell Point variant on DMG 288 (which is what I now recommend for the Sorcerer) gives the Sorcerer full control over where they allocate their magical resources. Spell Points, unlike slots, are not limited to casting a prescribed amount of each level.

There is definitely increased power with the increased versatility. I believe this is within the balance of other classes though. If your group is not fond of this choice then feel free to use the class without spell points.

Thanks for checking out my homebrew and let me know if you have any further suggestions or comments.

[MrLockie]

Thanks for the super fast reply! and yes I do agree that the burst might be a little high for thunderbolt. but increasing the radius to 15 and lowering the damage to 10d6 should fix that up perfectly.

after reading the spell point system I really love it, so much versatility and I think it makes sense for a sorcerer.

I am very excited to give your sorcerer a try (assuming I can convince my DM to let me).

If me or my DM have any further questions we will be sure to come back!

[MrLockie]

Hello again! So after reading further and speaking to my DM we both agree that this is a fantastic rework. but one thing he did mention to me since I was thinking of going the infernal bloodline is that : you gain melee claws indicating you should spend SOME time in melee but then you lack any sort of armour or health regen that some bloodlines have (ie fiendish armour, or regen HP when you kill something)

maybe the infernal tiefling could get the Dark one's blessing from the warlock fiend pact? or maybe give them fiendish armour based on the draconic armour (13+dex) that way they aren't some squishy low HP low AC sorcerer with a melee form if that makes sense

not sure if that is balanced but just thought I would mention it

[Kryx]

Infernal Form has several strong benefits:


Advantage on saving throws against poison
Resistance to poison damage
Resistance to fire damage


Unarmed attacks are a fluff feature more than anything else - they are not meant to be used as a primary option. The three options above are quite comparable to other 1st level features:


Unarmored Defense
Unarmored Defense + 1 hp
Invisibility for the turn after casting a spell, or before casting spell once per short rest.
Mage Armor equivalent
Avoid opportunity attacks (Similar to Fey)
Regain hit points when you kill creatures
Barkskin equivalent when casting a spell
Wild magic surges


An Unarmored Defense equivalent would be too strong in combination with the other benefits. Many Sorcerer archetypes (like Wizard archetypes) assume the character uses defensive spells like Mage Armor. About half above have some kind of AC strategy while others have other defensive options (hp regain, avoid opportunity attacks, resistances to elemental damage as Infernal does)

[MrLockie]

you make some good points! totally forgot about mage armour still being accessible.

[Kryx]

Changes:

Wrote out a full spell list
It is expanded from RAW, but doesn't have the full Wizard list.

Reworked Shadow Sorcerery

Moved shadow guide to 3rd level and removed the darkness for 1 sorcerery point. Darkness added to the spell list - replacing pass without trace.
Moved Shadow Walk to 6th level instead of Grasping Shadows. Grasping Shadows moved to the spell list - replacing Phantasmal Killer
Added Cloak of Shadows as a 14th level ability which mirrors the shadow monk's ability of the same name. It allows you to turn invisible while within shadows.

This should allow the archetype to feel more thematic without increasing its power.

[MrLockie]

Changes:

Wrote out a full spell list
It is expanded from RAW, but doesn't have the full Wizard list.

Reworked Shadow Sorcerery

Moved shadow guide to 3rd level and removed the darkness for 1 sorcerery point. Darkness added to the spell list - replacing pass without trace.
Moved Shadow Walk to 6th level instead of Grasping Shadows. Grasping Shadows moved to the spell list - replacing Phantasmal Killer
Added Cloak of Shadows as a 14th level ability which mirrors the shadow monk's ability of the same name. It allows you to turn invisible while within shadows.

This should allow the archetype to feel more thematic without increasing its power.

the Shadow Sorcerer page has glitched, the entire right side of the page is squashed at the bottom. might just be mine though.

[Kryx]

Should be fixed now.

[Terra Reveene]

The Sorcery Points seem to be doing very little with all the changes you've made. Have you thought about just combining them with spell points? I don't think it'd make much of a difference at this point. Or would that be unbalanced in your opinion? In my mind it just saves you from some record keeping and simplifies it all.

[Kryx]

The Sorcerery points were kept separate for 2 reasons:

To keep the total points consistent with the DMG format
To limit the amount of metamagic that can be used


#2 could be fixed by adding a note under metamagic and #1 isn't so important probably. I'll make this change soon.

[Kryx]

I have updated it to merge sorcery points into spell points as you suggested.

[Jorgumander]

WOW! This is amazing! It's exactly what I needed to resurrect an old 3.5 character I used to run who was a Sorcerer/Shadow Dragon Disciple who made it to epic levels. He's the contact in the campaign I'm running with my kiddos. And THIS is what I'm referencing to bring him into 5E. Thank you!

[LeonBH]

The Sorcerers now have a feat tax, meaning they miss out on ASIs and other useful feats to get more metamagic. Furthermore, their Sorcery Points by default have no use to them as they're already using Spell Points, not unless they take the metamagic feats. I feel the class design is quite wonky because of this. What if you were playing in a no feats campaign? What's the use of Sorcery Points without the metamagic feats?

Merging Sorcery Points and Spell Points might be a little tricky as well. Note that converting Spell Points to Sorcery Points come out to a loss:

* To create 3 Sorcery Points, you need to burn a 3rd level spell slot
* To create a 3rd level spell slot, you need to spend 5 Spell Points
* So 5 Spell Points becomes 3 Sorcery Points

These two pools are not equivalent, and merging them removes the lossy conversion that still takes place under this system.

[Kryx]

The Sorcerers now have a feat tax
Are you refering to metamagic? One of the goals of the rework was to extract metamagic from the class to make it available to all classes. Any class can take metamagic now.

Regarding the Sorcerer changes that I've made: It now has an identity that make it a worthwhile pick. The changes bring it in line with other spellcasters.


Sorcery Points by default have no use to them as they're already using Spell Points
Sorcerery points were merged into spell points as the post 2 above states. The reasons it was separated is also listed there.


These two pools are not equivalent, and merging them removes the lossy conversion that still takes place under this system.
There are no slots on this rework so "3rd level spell slot" is not relevant. The spell point cost for 3rd level spells is no different from the DMG where the cost is 5 points. There is no exchanging. In the version previously posted before the change just above there was also no exchanging. It sounds like you're talking about the PHB version - though it doesn't work like you describe either.

[LeonBH]

Yes, I'm referencing metamagic. Good effort on trying to extract that from them... it does result in a class design that is incomplete though. The Sorcerer cannot stand on its own now without a feat or two.

Also, I know you merged those points in the above two posts. I am commenting on how that removes the lossiness of the conversion, and how both pools aren't equivalent for the standard Sorcerer from the PHB, if he used Spell Points instead of spell slots.


though it doesn't work like you describe either

Just curious here: what did I describe and how didn't it work that way? I feel like I know what I said about conversion rules is correct, and so I feel like you may not have understood my point or perhaps I wasn't able to get it across correctly.

I laud your efforts for giving love to the Sorcerer, a class I love to play myself. How has this playtested for you?

[Kryx]

Firstly let me say: Homebrew isn't for everyone. It seems like you don't like mine. If this is just a matter of arguing over the whole concept of a spell point Sorcerer who doesn't have its chasis built around metamagic then this thread isn't for you.


Yes, I'm referencing metamagic. Good effort on trying to extract that from them... it does result in a class design that is incomplete though. The Sorcerer cannot stand on its own now without a feat or two.
That's quite an unsupported claim you've put forward. What are you making this claim based on? I've provided an abundance of comparisons to other classes. If you're going to make such a claim please provide evidence compared to mine.

This version of the Sorcerer is quite comparable to other casters (primarily Wizard). Its flavor and niche are both significantly different while its mechanics are very comparable.


I am commenting on how that removes the lossiness of the conversion, and how both pools aren't equivalent for the standard Sorcerer from the PHB, if he used Spell Points instead of spell slots.?
Ah, I see what you're saying now. Yes, RAW creating points from slots is a poor conversion - that's likely by design to prevent mass metamagic. Per RAW creating slots is the normal conversion (3rd level = 5 points) which my system maintains when the class converted the slots to points.

The PHB version does allow for more than 20 points to be spent on metamagic using the poor conversion. Mine doesn't. The choice is probably a trap option so it shouldn't be missed. Additionally this class isn't built around metamagic - they have a possibility to burn some points on it (if they spend the feat), but they could instead just cast more spells during the day as well.

[LeonBH]

this thread isn't for you

Great way to receive critique.

[Kryx]

Great way to receive critique.
Perhaps if you read this thread you'll see how I've responded to critiques on alterations. I've made several changes and adjustments based on community feedback.

You've taken what I've said out of context. The point I'm conveying is that not everyone will like every Homebrew. If he is against the core concept of my rework then there really isn't much to discuss. Especially since his opinions have been unsubstantiated by any comparisons to substantiate his harsh claims.

[Kryx]

I've added Phoenix Sorcerer in as a rough draft - I think it's pretty decently balanced.

Favored Soul is largely covered by my celestial bloodline (besides the cleric spells part, but I'd rather make an oracle archetype for cleric or something to cover that).

Sea and Stone I'll look into, though imo sea is a bit covered by storm already and stone's niche is probably covered well by the EK, magus homebrew, or bladelock (I have a revamped version on my warlock homebrew) so we'll see if I do those.

[Hypersmith]

I love you dude. I really like sea sorcerer being separate from storm because sea feels more focused on being fluid and impossible to hit, while storm brings the thunder - but I can see them being similar

[Israffle]

As a dungeon master i really love this rework for several reasons

1. The extraction of metamagic to allow other classes to partake
2. The emphasis on archetypes

Me and my fellow Dungeon Master DM sat down and discussed for nearly three hours the merits and problems associated with it and these were the biggest concerns.

1. You've extracted metamagic and compensated by adding more archetype features to replace them, however the amount of sorcery points converted to spell points seems (at least to my friend) ridiculously excessive, it seems that while every other caster will be running out of steam (spell slots) the sorcerer will be only just beginning to sweat.

2. The disparity between wizard and sorcerer, just to quote my friend "if you instituted this i wouldn't consider ever playing a wizard again", part of the reason a wizard has so many dashes on its level progression table is that its assumed its spellcasting is compensating for it. With the addition of so many extra spells to choose from as well as cast i worry that it has surpassed with wizard.

3. Alot of the wording was tripping us up, particularly "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest unless you expend 6 spell points." my friend thought it ment that once you'd spend that amount (continuing to cast spells) you eventually recharge it naturally.

4. Many of the 18th level abilities seem overly excessive to the point of ridiculous, their AURA's are insanely large and contain devastating effects not matched by any other ability in the PHB. Particularly form the phoenix which does 8d8 fire damage EVERY ROUND! in addition to flying and casting spells simultaneously!

5. Shadow sorcery's shadow guide seems extremely weirdly abusable. "Create a 5-foot square of dim light or darkness for 1 minute. The area increases by another 5-foot square for
each spell level above 1st. The area is considered magical and non-magical light can't illuminate it." So does this mean that in an unlimited range as a bonus action i can blind someone whenever i cast a 1st level spell? As placing this in the space of a small/medium creature means their now suffering from the blinded condition? or conversely if i up-cast a spell and target myself, are all creatures now attacking me effectively blinded to attack me? I feel this features need clearer language and maybe some defined ranges.

Thank you and keep up the good work

[Kryx]

Hi Israffle,

Thanks for taking a look.


1. You've extracted metamagic and compensated by adding more archetype features to replace them, however the amount of sorcery points converted to spell points seems (at least to my friend) ridiculously excessive, it seems that while every other caster will be running out of steam (spell slots) the sorcerer will be only just beginning to sweat.
The amount of spell points directly correlates to the DMG spell points system + sorcerery points. If you look at my Caster Comparison (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJAnGX7qgsPqpXv3h76QGGn5vmPgjU1bCzU-7kgBjvw/edit#gid=2077828504) speadsheet you can see how the RAW Sorcerer compared to my Sorcerer and the Wizard. Assuming 1.75 short rests per day on average here are some break points:

3rd level:
RAW Sorcerer: 17 effective spell points
Kryx's Sorcerer: 17 effective spell points
Wizard: 17 effective spell points

5th level:
RAW Sorcerer: 32 effective spell points
Kryx's Sorcerer: 36 effective spell points
Wizard: 32 effective spell points

8th level:
RAW Sorcerer: 52 effective spell points
Kryx's Sorcerer: 57 effective spell points
Wizard: 51 effective spell points

11th level:
RAW Sorcerer: 84 effective spell points
Kryx's Sorcerer: 91 effective spell points
Wizard: 83 effective spell points

14th level:
RAW Sorcerer: 97 effective spell points
Kryx's Sorcerer: 106 effective spell points
Wizard: 94 effective spell points

17th level:
RAW Sorcerer: 124 effective spell points
Kryx's Sorcerer: 135 effective spell points
Wizard: 121 effective spell points

Keep in mind these numbers do not include metamagic for the RAW sorcerer. Assuming the RAW Sorcerer actually uses his sorcery points for metamagic (it should) than the Wizard is far ahead in effective spell points. My sorcerer could also use those points for metamagic if it chooses.

The theme of a Wizard is versatility as they know 44+ spells and can switch which spells they prepare every day. The theme of a RAW Sorcerer less versatility, but metamagic. The theme of my Sorcerer is less versatility, no metamagic, but very slightly more spells.

If you look at that spreadsheet you can see how I've compared the differences of spellcasters across multiple categories. If you think any of that information is incorrect or is unbalanced please mention it.


2. The disparity between wizard and sorcerer, just to quote my friend "if you instituted this i wouldn't consider ever playing a wizard again", part of the reason a wizard has so many dashes on its level progression table is that its assumed its spellcasting is compensating for it. With the addition of so many extra spells to choose from as well as cast i worry that it has surpassed with wizard.
I expect this is an unfairly evaluated gut reaction. The Wizard's role is versatility and that has not diminished at all. If you think there are specific build comparisons to be made that outline this imbalance please let me know.


3. Alot of the wording was tripping us up, particularly "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest unless you expend 6 spell points." my friend thought it ment that once you'd spend that amount (continuing to cast spells) you eventually recharge it naturally.
If you're confused by wording please point out each specific example so I can address them. I'll address your one example:

"Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest unless you expend 6 spell points." The bolded part is word for word from other Player's Handbook examples. So we're really looking at "unless you expend 6 spell points". This should be reworded to "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest unless you expend a 6 spell points to use it again."



4. Many of the 18th level abilities seem overly excessive to the point of ridiculous, their AURA's are insanely large and contain devastating effects not matched by any other ability in the PHB. Particularly form the phoenix which does 8d8 fire damage EVERY ROUND! in addition to flying and casting spells simultaneously!
18th level features, as pointed out in the "Archetype Template" at the end of the document are "High level spell equivalent ability that is usable 1/long rest (effectively an extra high level spell)".
This document is full of documentation for sources and references - use it! Since you mentioned aura I can guess you're maybe talking about some of the 18th level features that are incredibly similar to the 20th level paladin features?
Since you mention the phoenix ability: There are many archetypes that can fly and cast spells at 14th level. The 18th level ability has nothing to do with this. Aarcokra can fly and shoot arrows or cast cleric/druid spells at 1st level. Having the ability to fly and cast concentration spells at 14th level is not game breaking.
Phoenix is one of my newer archetypes and as such hasn't recieved much community feedback. The ability is meant to mimic a 7th level spell. Compare this feature to Fire Storm which creatures 10 10 foot AoEs that do 7d10 (38.5) each and I think your view of 8d8 (36) each turn for 10 turns can change. Fire Storm only hitting 1 creature per AoE does 385 damage in 1 turn while this, assuming it only hits 1 creature per turn, would do 360 damage over 10 turns. They have different uses, but I don't think that damage is beyond the normal limit for 7th level spells. Additionally I think you're not considering the "when it comes within 20 feet of you for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there" line. That means that the creature must willingly enter the area (no forced movement) and it must willingly end its turn there. So the damage is very much avoidable.


5. Shadow sorcery's shadow guide seems extremely weirdly abusable. "Create a 5-foot square of dim light or darkness for 1 minute. The area increases by another 5-foot square for
each spell level above 1st. The area is considered magical and non-magical light can't illuminate it." So does this mean that in an unlimited range as a bonus action i can blind someone whenever i cast a 1st level spell? As placing this in the space of a small/medium creature means their now suffering from the blinded condition? or conversely if i up-cast a spell and target myself, are all creatures now attacking me effectively blinded to attack me? I feel this features need clearer language and maybe some defined ranges.
I will define a range where the shadow can be created. Likely within 60 feet, same as shadow walk.
"Blind someone" is an incredibly strong statement. They're effectively blind until they move a few feet, but any enemies trying to hit them are also hindered so this is nothing like outright blinding someone. Sorcerers has very few offensive attack spells so effectively blinding an enemy has very little benefit for them directly.
I'll reword the area of shadow to limit the amount of shadow creates (maybe 5ft cube for 1st-2nd spells, 10 feet for 3rd-5th, 15 feet for 6th-7th spells, and 20 feet for 8th-9th spells).

Thanks for your feedback. Hopefully my responses are clear and we can continue this dialogue.

[Israffle]

Thank you for addressing our concerns and I'm really hoping you'll find the time to continue building this sorcerer as it is genuinely interesting. Keep doing awesome stuff, here are a few extra thoughts from me and my friend:

If a sorcerer takes the metamagic feat, the fact they would have three distinct resources in Metamagic points, spell points equal to their level reserved in a purgatory for metamagic, and their spell points used for spell casting leads to extra book keeping that could slow down play. And allowing sorcerers to use their spell points without a level cap for metamagic options, while obliviously stronger than having a cap wouldnt be far from how RAW they can create points out of spell slots and simplify the point keeping process. Allowing sorcerers to go ham with their spell points and blow their load on metamagic and then sit in the corner like a potato when they run out of points doesnt sound too bad to me.

Also Font of Magic seems to be a bit buggy as it infers the sorcery points of RAW without really explaining where they came from as well as referring to the Cantrips know column which doesn't contain the relevant information as it lists cantrips, maybe a typo?

We also felt that Dark ones rebuke is an incredibly weak ability in that its only a single 1st level spell. When looking at the spellcasting comparison it seems like you envisioned something entirely different since it reads "heal when killing enemies".

Do you multiclass in your game because this sorcerer is unmulticlassable due to the incompatibility between spell points and spell slots when trying to combine spell levels.

Ps. Do you have any suggestions to make it possible for tables that do allow multiclassing.

PPS. lots of the abilites are front loaded so in the event that is was possible to multiclass this class could become super popular to dip into. Eg. Phoenix Level 1 gives CHA to damage, which isnt reliant on sorcerer level so would incentivse multiclassing

[Kryx]

I do not think I sufficient divorced the Sorcerer from metamagic. I will fully remove metamagic. I'll need to do some more math on the effective spell points granted by the 6th level feature and how that stacks up against the Wizard features (don't forget their hidden features of 1. spells known, 2. spells prepared, 3. spells list!!!). If that math shows that the Sorcerer is too strong I could remove the extra spell points from Font of Magic.

"Cantrips Known" is a typo. It's meant to be "Spell Points"

Dark One's rebuke is definitely weak in comparison to the other 3rd level features. Thanks for pointing that out.

I do multiclass. You can read other forums for how people multiclass with Spell Points. Some people turn everything into spell points, some people let them exist side by side. My Warlock also uses Spell Points so the common multiclass wouldn't be a problem there. I'm not sure entirely how I'd multiclass a points and slots character tbh. I'm sure someone has a good solution.

Regarding the ability to dip: The "when you cast a spell of 1st level or higher" features in RAW are not restricted to only Sorcerer. Do you have a compelling reason to think one of these options is a must have? These require 3 levels of a dip so that's quite costly.

TODO:

Entirely remove the reference to metamagic from the base class. Font of Magic's extra spell points won't be usable for metamagic.
Investigate the balance of effective spell points. If it's ok then clarify the wording of Font of Magic. If not then remove Font of Magic.
Clarify the wording of "unless you expend X spell points" abilities.
Refactor Shadow's "Shadow Guide" feature to clarify the amount of shadow created. Possibly add the ability to wrap yourself in shadow, granting disadvantage on the first attack against you until the start of your next turn. Should it scale? Other 3rd level abilities don't.

[Kryx]

Changelog 24th April 2017:


Removed metamagic from font of magic and fixed the Cantrips Known typo.
Sorcerous Restoration moved to 2nd level and its progression has been slowed
Clarified the wording of abilities that can be used at the cost of spell points beyond their limit: "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest unless you expend 6 spell points to use it again."
Fey Ancestry buffed to be similar to Gnome Cunning: "At 3rd level, you have advantage on all Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws against spells and other magical effects."
Buffed Dark One's Rebuke: "You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (a minimum of once). You regain any expended uses when you finish a short or long rest." The Infernal bloodline has no defensive mechanic so this should act as a sufficient deterrant. It can be used commonly to be competitive with the 3rd level features that damage on spell casts.
Adjusted Heavenly Rain/Mantle of Flame/Heart of the storm to be creatures within 20 feet and do damage based on spell's level + your Charisma modifier
Removed "Magical darkness doesn't impede your darkvision." from the Shadow Sorcerer
Refactored Shadow Guide:
Also at 3rd level, you gain the ability to subtly control the shadows around you. Immediately before or after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher you can create a 5-foot cube of dim light or darkness which lasts for 1 minute. The area is considered magical and non-magical light can't illuminate it. If you are in dim light or darkness you can use a bonus action to wrap yourself in shadows, gaining one of the following benefits:

* Take the Hide action (no action required).
* The next attack roll against you before the start of your next turn made by a creature that relies on sight is made with disadvantage.

[Terra Reveene]

Hi Israffle,

If you're confused by wording please point out each specific example so I can address them. I'll address your one example:

"Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest unless you expend 6 spell points." The bolded part is word for word from other Player's Handbook examples. So we're really looking at "unless you expend 6 spell points". This should be reworded to "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest unless you expend a 6 spell points to use it again."



I'd reword it to "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest. Alternatively, you can expend 6 spell points to use it again.". Makes it less wonky in terms of wording imo.

[Kryx]

I'd reword it to "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest. Alternatively, you can expend 6 spell points to use it again.". Makes it less wonky in terms of wording imo.
The new version is in the changelog above: "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest unless you expend 6 spell points to use it again."

[Cognomore]

Hi Kryx! I haven't followed this for a while, but we're about to start a campaign where I'm a sorcerer based off your rework from around Aug '16.

Do you by chance have a copy of your reworked sorcerer from back then?

I'm actually planning to update my character per your latest version, but I'm not sure my DM will approve it, so also want to be able to move forward with the version he's already approved.

Thanks!

P.S. - I really like the latest version. The switch to spell points ... as well as the additional origins ... differentiates and adds richness to this class.

[Kryx]

Hi Cognomore, thanks for the appreciation!

If you'd like to not use spell points you can simply just replacing the casting part of the table with the slots from the PHB instead. Same if you'd like to allow sorcery points with metamagic - just take those from the PHB table and allow them to be used on metamagic feats.

[Kryx]

I've added a Stone Sorcerer. It pulls some inspiration from the UA Stone Sorcerer, but like my other archetypes focuses on spellcasting instead of the martial theme for the UA stone sorcerer. I think the feature set is very thematic and it'd be quite fun to play.

I think the Sea Sorcery is mostly covered by storm in its thematics, but it is more of a defensive style than storm so I could see it being adapated in the future, but I'd probably do a cold sorcerer first.

[Kryx]

I've added the Boreal Bloodline which focuses on ice based spells. I've also fixed some minor things with the Stone Sorcerer.

My Sorcerer now has 12 subclasses!

[Cognomore]

Hi Cognomore, thanks for the appreciation!

If you'd like to not use spell points you can simply just replacing the casting part of the table with the slots from the PHB instead. Same if you'd like to allow sorcery points with metamagic - just take those from the PHB table and allow them to be used on metamagic feats.

That definitely helps, but I think you've made other changes since then (e.g., Draconic Resistance AC is now 13 + Con mod, but it was 13 + Dex mod).

I don't suppose you kept a copy of the older rules?

WRT the current Draconic Resistance AC rules, is the idea that the scales slow the Sorcerer down ... so they lose the AC benefit that's typically associated with one's Dex mod?

Thanks much!

[Kryx]

I had changed the Dragon scales to Constitution to align with the stone sorcerer. If that feature was altering its skin to be tougher and using consitution then the draconic feature which has tougher skin should also match. That would also align with Dragons not having much dexterity in flavor.
But I decided against that now and have made stone's feature use Dexterity. This was is more balanced.

It sounds like you don't like much of my changes though. If you only want parts of it then you'll have to pick and choose which parts.

[Cognomore]

I had changed the Dragon scales to Constitution to align with the stone sorcerer. If that feature was altering its skin to be tougher and using consitution then the draconic feature which has tougher skin should also match. That would also align with Dragons not having much dexterity in flavor.
But I decided against that now and have made stone's feature use Dexterity. This was is more balanced.

Gotcha. That makes sense.

Do you think Dragon scales using Dex would be more balanced?



It sounds like you don't like much of my changes though. If you only want parts of it then you'll have to pick and choose which parts.

Apologies if I came across sounding critical. That wasn't my intent. I really just like knowing the reasoning behind changes. Given how thoughtfully you approach this stuff, I knew you'd have a reason.

[Kryx]

Gotcha. That makes sense.

Do you think Dragon scales using Dex would be more balanced?
Having all of the armor features use Dex (and not Con in the case of stone) is more balanced I believe. Allowing Con in the place that is traditionally Dex allows a Sorc to focus more on 2 abilities instead of 3. There are some tradeoffs (Dex saves, Initiative, Dex skills), but I expect they aren't entirely fair.



Apologies if I came across sounding critical. That wasn't my intent. I really just like knowing the reasoning behind changes. Given how thoughtfully you approach this stuff, I knew you'd have a reason.
No worries and I don't mean to sound defensive - as I say you're free to pick and choose what you like from my homebrew - that's the beauty of D&D. :)
Feel free to ask away!

[InspectorCM]

Hey, Kryx, got a question for you.

A few weeks ago, I had one of my players start using this rework for his Sorcerer, and he really enjoyed the spell point system you assigned to it. I noticed that when you brought everything into one document, it no longer uses spell points. Why is that?

[Kryx]

I changed the Sorcerer back to a slots based class for 2 reasons:

Balance
Flavor


Balance: If you look at my Caster Comparison sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJAnGX7qgsPqpXv3h76QGGn5vmPgjU1bCzU-7kgBjvw/edit#gid=2077828504) you can see that the houserules Sorcerer is in a much better place in regards to spell list (198 vs 137 RAW vs 230 for Wizard), spells known (16+10 vs 15 RAW vs 44 for Wizard), and effective spells prepared (similar to spells known). If you look at the 3rd and 6th level features of a Sorcerer they are quite competitive in terms of effectiveness now. I determined that the Sorcerer is quite a good class as it stands and it doesn't need the power boost that comes along with spell points. Spell points allowing the caster to choose which level to cast a spell offers a fair amount of versatility and would probably make the Sorcerer overtuned.
Flavor: I believe the spell points paradigm fits much better in the world of Psionics unless every class were to use spell points, but that change would drastically increase the power of all spellcasters. My Warlock has spell points primarily for balance reasons (though you could also argue that spell points gives it the power a class bargaining with a devil deserves).

Overall I think Spell Points are an ok "quick fix", but they feel like the wrong choice for a class that can stand on its own in comparison to other classes.

Now that you mention it though I realize that many people could've been using the old spell points. I expect most downloaded the file so it's probably not much of a problem though. Hopefully..

[Israffle]

I feel a bit disheartened at the return to spell slots, i can understand your reasoning but i found the way they bridged sorcery points and spell slots very elegant. The only problem i had was it felt like they had too many on the class table, while i understood that it was compensatory for the sorcerer points being absorbed, it still felt a little excessive. I thinkthe increase to action economy not having to swap spells around together with the extra archetype features more than made up for it.

If i was going to have my own crack at a sorcerer rework for my table, do you have any advice for creating one? Id still like to use the biggest things I liked about your rework, sorcery points and metamagic removal (then placed into a feat)

[SharkForce]

I feel a bit disheartened at the return to spell slots, i can understand your reasoning but i found the way they bridged sorcery points and spell slots very elegant. The only problem i had was it felt like they had too many on the class table, while i understood that it was compensatory for the sorcerer points being absorbed, it still felt a little excessive. I thinkthe increase to action economy not having to swap spells around together with the extra archetype features more than made up for it.

If i was going to have my own crack at a sorcerer rework for my table, do you have any advice for creating one? Id still like to use the biggest things I liked about your rework, sorcery points and metamagic removal (then placed into a feat)

good news, spell points are a standard variant rule in the DMG.

[Kryx]

good news, spell points are a standard variant rule in the DMG.
Yup, this is the best method. Use DMG spell points and convert Sorcerous Restoration to spell points recovered (level, points): 2nd: 2, 3rd/4th: 4, 5th/6th: 5, 7th/8th: 7, 9th/10th: 8, 11th/12th: 10, 13th/14th: 12, 15th/16th: 13, 17th/18th: 15, 19th/20th: 17.

This allows me to maintain 1 version and people who want spell points can accomplish it quite easily.