Whirling Frenzy or Lion Totem

[WesleyVos]

So, I am in a game where the DM is only allowing one ACF per character. I am playing a barbarian, intending to go Frenzied Berserker. Most of the build is set, except the ACF. I'll either run Whirling Frenzy or Lion Totem (to get pounce). Not sure which to run. Any advice?

[ComaVision]

Pounce is the much better option, unless you have something else planned to get full attacks.

[Cerefel]

Pounce scales noticeably better into late levels once you start getting multiple types of rages or BAB of 11 or higher, so you should probably go with lion spirit totem. It is worth noting that Whirling Frenzy is stronger before level 6 or so, which may be worth considering depending on your campaign.

[AnimeTheCat]

I second what ComaVision said. That being said, I see options for either.

Spirit Lion Totem:
Build in to the ubercharger and use all the juicy resources on the various sites to build out.

Whirling Frenzy:
Take a level of C-Cleric and Travel devotion if for no other reason than to fuel Travel Devotion. (Or go full fondue and take knowledge devotion for extra damage)

Either build will work and will be powerful (For martial/non-casting characters). Both have merit.

[WesleyVos]

Unfortunately, Cloistered Cleric isn't an option. We're restricted to a total of three classes (base plus prestige) and I've already used two of mine (Barbarian 4/Fighter 1), with Frenzied Berserker being the third. That would be a good build, though.

As background, our party is a generalist wizard (who looks sort-of like he knows what he's doing, though his feats concern me - Fiery Burst, Explosive Spell, Energy Substitution (Acid), Point Blank Shot, and Alertness), a Goliath Ranger/Druid who is actually preparing CLW in a spell slot, a bard who does know what he's doing, a Paladin of Freedom/Knight of the Raven (and fairly unoptimized at that), and a Changeling Barbarian/Warshaper. Most of them are fairly unoptimized, which concerns me - there's no dedicated controller to keep enemies from surrounding me and keeping me from charging.

[Necroticplague]

Lion Totem. Whirling Frenzy states that it doesn't stack with similar things, so you can't Frenzy and Whirling Frenzy.

[WesleyVos]

Hadn't caught that. I think the DM would rule that you can, but I think the weight of opinion is on Pounce rather than Whirling Frenzy anyway.

[Metahuman1]

Is the fighter dip for a feat?


If so, what feat? And how concerned are you about 1 level were you advance will save in place of Frot save and have a D6 hit die and no BAB improvement in the build?


Reason: Depending on the feat, there may be a domain that grants it. Grab CC, get the domain in question, and it gives you the bonus feat as the domain power. Leaving you two other slots to play with. Sure, knowledge domain is next to useless for you cause you don't have the added room to get knowledge devotion now, but you get turn undead uses and can snag Travel Domain and swap that out for Travel devotion.

[WesleyVos]

Yeah, the dip is to pick up the prerequisite feats for Frenzied Berserker. She needed Power Attack, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage, and Cleave to get the PrC. I could use her level 6 feat for one of them, but that gives me no leeway in picking feats.

The other problem with running her as a cleric is going to be her wisdom score. Right now I have her stats spread as follows:

STR 16 (+1 from level increase)
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 12 (needed to get enough skill points to boost intimidate, spot, listen, and survival - we are sans scout, so it falls to me to make sure we're not getting surprised)
WIS 10
CHA 8

So unless I pull from DEX (bad idea, as any damage she takes sends her into a Frenzy as soon as I take the class), or CON (always a bad idea), her wisdom score won't be high enough to cast even 1st level buff spells.

On the plus side, the DM has agreed to allow up the three ACFs now, and has ruled that Whirling Frenzy and Frenzy stack. So her current build is Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, and Trapkiller from Dungeonscape.

[Red Fel]

So unless I pull from DEX (bad idea, as any damage she takes sends her into a Frenzy as soon as I take the class), or CON (always a bad idea), her wisdom score won't be high enough to cast even 1st level buff spells.

You don't necessarily want CC for spells, particularly if you're only dipping it. CC dip is about domain powers or domain feats. The Cloistered Cleric gains two domains, plus Knowledge domain. That means a total of three domains, any of which you can exchange for the appropriate Devotion feat.

Knowledge Devotion is quite potent, although you can't use it during a Rage. You can, however, use it before a Rage, which will give you an insight bonus on attack and damage rolls for the remainder of combat, even once you start Raging.

And there are other useful ones. The Travel Domain gives you a Freedom of Movement effect for one round per day per Cleric level, perfect for getting out of nasty messes and getting to things you need to squish. Or take Travel Devotion, and move up to your speed as a swift action (of course, having Pounce makes this less valuable). Strength Devotion lets you ignore hardness for one minute, and grants you a slam attack. The Luck Domain gives you a free reroll. Destruction Devotion lets you reduce your enemy's armor or natural armor bonus to AC. Fire Devotion causes your enemies to catch on fire!

There are a lot of options, is the point. You wouldn't be dipping a Cleric variant for the spells.

But yeah. If you're tight for feats, you're better off with the Fighter dip.

[WesleyVos]

One problem with CC is that the character is written as a worshiper of Tempus. I don't think the DM would allow a Tempus worshiper to become a Cloistered Cleric (though I could always ask!!!).

However, picking up the Strength and/or War and/or Protection domains as a Cleric isn't necessarily a bad idea. It'd be giving up +1 BAB (meaning I'm delaying entry into Frenzied Berserker for one level) and giving up the extra feat, though.

[Metahuman1]

Depending on the domains you pick, it's power might BE the feat you were gonna grab anyway.



If not, you could always break open the PHB 2's retraining rules and retrain a devotion feat you don't actually much care for for the feat you were gonna get on the fighter dip, leaving you the 2 extra devotion feats/Domain powers.

[weckar]

Ummm pretty sure that's not how retraining works. DCFS, sure, but...

[lord_khaine]

Your not worried about that picking Frenzied berserker is unlikely to win you friends in the rest of the party?
They do know what they are getting into?

[WesleyVos]

They know, and are fine with it. They're preparing some spells to drop me if I don't make my save. The levels of cleric should help, though - Conviction and Resistance are nice spells to have. And since the DM has ruled that we have unlimited orisons, I'll probably keep Resistance up all day anyway.