May have royally screwed over my first character...

[GriffinSanders]

First time posting, but after my group's latest DnD session (Lost Mines of Phandelver, 5e), I've been put in a rather difficult position as a result of some extremely committed roleplaying.

To get to the nitty gritty: I modelled my player character on the Anglo-Saxon huscarls, who carries himself with the idealism and honor of the Germanic heroes of old. This is helpful for a number of reasons- in his homeland, whilst carrying his sword, he commands a good degree of respect from the common folk, he was able to secure a membership in the Lord's Alliance due to his consistent character and commitment to preserving the peace, etc.

It wasn't very helpful today.

To briefly elucidate, my character, a level 5 Human Battlemaster named Wistan, had previously defended Phandalin from a mass-scale offensive lead by the Redbrand Leader, Glasstaff, and in the process, he had slain an Orc war chief named Orog. Didn't think too much of it- after we dealt with the rest of his forces and captured Glasstaff, I'd nearly forgotten about the entire thing.

We were at the Wyvern Tor a week or so later, stealthily making our way through the peripheries of an Orcish encampment. My fighter and our ranger alternated roles of dealing with the guards, and after we'd mopped up the defenders, we entered one of the larger tents- to discover an array of caged human slaves, and, conversing with them, a half-orc wielding a halberd.

DM rolled his perception roll, and after he got a 17, he declared that the half-orc recognized my character as his father's murderer.

Wistan, honourable as he was, decided against piling his party members onto the boy and ordered the other characters to stand aside. Wistan essentially recognized the boy's right to wergild, and offered terms: as he was the inheritor to his father's position as chief, he was to cease all attacks on human settlements, in particular Phandalin, if he lost in a duel- if he was victorious, Wistan's life was his.

Rolled a 19 on persuasion. The half-orc agrees.

Thing is, DM intended for us to take the bastard on as a party- his character sheet, which the DM showed me after this whole debacle, put him at 5 Fighter Levels and 3 Barbarian Levels- a whole three levels above Wistan. I, of course, was unaware of this- and it would be OOC for Wistan to yield, so we fought.

Polearm mastery + Sentinel + Rage damage reduction + Consistently high rolls meant that even with an AC of 20, I was taking a beating. Wistan was knocked unconscious. :smalleek:

I'll spare the details, but after a brief scuffle where the other party members ignored Wistan's direct orders and ended up joining the fight anyway despite his protests, Wistan regained consciousness thanks to the cleric and roared at everyone else to stand down.

Wistan basically ended up asking the half-orc how old he was (he was 19), and promised him that, two summers from the present day, he would appear at Phandalin to settle this score- this time without the presence of his party mates. It took some persuading, but after the parley, the half-orc permitted Wistan and the party safe passage out of the orc encampments.

TL;DR: Have made a sworn enemy that I am incapable of damaging due to the sheer potency of his build, as well as level advantage. Is it possible to defeat this enemy fairly with an appropriate combination of maneuvers, magic items, and tactics? I have two in-game years to prepare and I really don't want to lose this character. :smallfrown:

[hymer]

It shouldn't be hard to gain four levels in two years, and so have the upper hand, should it?
Otherwise, have your PC realize that you don't want to pay weregilt for someone you fought in an open and honest fight.
Or have your PC friends dig up the dirt on this guy, showing he has little to no honour, and so should not be trusted to act honourably himself.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Dude, you've got two years. If you train hard, you could be level 20 before you meet again. Anything is possible!

Regardless of what level you are though, the DM determines how much XP the NPC gains in that period, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect them to 'fudge' it so that the NPC is a fair one-to-one challenge by the time you next meet.

[Gastronomie]

First of all, this is more of a DM problem, because the right thing for the DM to do was to either:

1) Have the half-orc bellow that since it's the "party" who killed the orcs, he will fight them all at once
2) Scribble out a new monster sheet for the half-orc at the last second, altering his encounter difficulty to match your character

And to be honest it's not really your fault, because no one would expect a really random, young half-orc NPC to be level 8. This matter is vastly different from when, say, you've bumped into a Adult Red Dragon or something, because it's impossible for the players to really judge that it wasn't a fair fight.

On the bright side, two years is quite long. I doubt your DM will be much of a d*** to actually kill your character just because of this, and most likely you will be given enough time to level up and prepare. If not... you know, changing the DM is always an option.

[MrStabby]

You need to find a way to force a wis/int/cha save. Two years might let you take a good few levels - any that give you hold person will help. Plenty of useful spells.

Otherwise ranged attacks and mobility might help.

Just don't go up against an opponent optimized for melee vs melee combat with a pure melee character.

[TheMightyPotato]

I would say find the guy ambush him in his sleep while he is alone and then you should be able to defeat him ass a party. So unless your dm tries to interfere here you should be fine.

Maybe hard to justify for your character to do though...

[Ninja_Prawn]

Just don't go up against an opponent optimized for melee vs melee combat with a pure melee character.

Ooh, ooh! You could get a crazy necromancer to transplant your brain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20947538&postcount=79) into the body of high-CR monster! They'll never see it coming!

[GriffinSanders]

First of all, this is more of a DM problem, because the right thing for the DM to do was to either:

1) Have the half-orc bellow that since it's the "party" who killed the orcs, he will fight them all at once
2) Scribble out a new monster sheet for the half-orc at the last second, altering his encounter difficulty to match your character

And to be honest it's not really your fault, because no one would expect a really random, young half-orc NPC to be level 8. This matter is vastly different from when, say, you've bumped into a Adult Red Dragon or something, because it's impossible for the players to really judge that it wasn't a fair fight.

On the bright side, two years is quite long. I doubt your DM will be much of a d*** to actually kill your character just because of this, and most likely you will be given enough time to level up and prepare. If not... you know, changing the DM is always an option.

I think it's more on part of the DM wanting to induce tension, but also a lack of preparedness on his part. He himself told me after the session that he'd had a sneaking suspicion that Wistan would pull something like that, but had dismissed the possibility as too unlikely to pull out a new character sheet on the fly. He's fudged stuff before, but seeing how Wistan has been consistently kicking ass more or less since Level 1, perhaps he'd tried to introduce a character who equally emphasized martial perfection as a temporary adversary, or something.

I'm more or less hoping that Ninja_Prawn is right and the DM will stall his development and enable a fairer fight in the years to come.


You need to find a way to force a wis/int/cha save. Two years might let you take a good few levels - any that give you hold person will help. Plenty of useful spells.

Otherwise ranged attacks and mobility might help.

Just don't go up against an opponent optimized for melee vs melee combat with a pure melee character.

DID manage to put the frightened condition on him with Menacing Attack. Capitalized on it with a few good hits of my own, but it's more of a damage issue than anything else. Halving all oncoming damage with Rage is pretty potent... I'm wondering if there's feasible method of countering that, perhaps with a magical item, if such a thing is even possible.

[GriffinSanders]

I would say find the guy ambush him in his sleep while he is alone and then you should be able to defeat him ass a party. So unless your dm tries to interfere here you should be fine.

Maybe hard to justify for your character to do though...

Ugh. As a player, I couldn't help but groan inwardly as Wistan insisted on dueling the half-orc. I'd have no qualms with subduing the orcish tribes if it meant peace for the inhabitants of Phandalin- even if it involved attacking a 19 year old en-masse- but Wistan's damned honor makes it difficult to take the most efficient route, at times.

[Addaran]

When playing an honorable or heroic character, there's always a risk. If it was easy and totally safe, there would be nothing remarkable about acting this way. There will be times when it's a hard decision between life and death or success and failure in your mission to fallow your code of honor/do the right thing.

It is a bit weird that the half-orc son was more powerful then his father the Orog, but in a way, humans, half-orcs and PC races are known to sometime reach high lvl very quickly. =P

All in all, two years of in-game time is a lot (unless you fast-foward travel a lot) so you should be a lot stronger when you see him again. Probably have time to think of a strategy against him, with your maneuvers, the fighting style or magic items. Also, the campaign might not even last two more in-game years. There's a chance you finish the module/beat the big bad, that the group TPK/you die or that the game get cancelled sadly. So i'd enjoy the moment instead of thinking about too far in the future. Something could also happen to the half-orc (a plague, another army wins against his, his second in command kill him in his sleep)

Not sure how your character would react to the solution, but there's also the possibility of ressurection/reincarnate after he kills you. Or to ressurect/reincarnate the Orog to erase the debt.

[GriffinSanders]

When playing an honorable or heroic character, there's always a risk. If it was easy and totally safe, there would be nothing remarkable about acting this way. There will be times when it's a hard decision between life and death or success and failure in your mission to fallow your code of honor/do the right thing.

It is a bit weird that the half-orc son was more powerful then his father the Orog, but in a way, humans, half-orcs and PC races are known to sometime reach high lvl very quickly. =P

All in all, two years of in-game time is a lot (unless you fast-foward travel a lot) so you should be a lot stronger when you see him again. Probably have time to think of a strategy against him, with your maneuvers, the fighting style or magic items. Also, the campaign might not even last two more in-game years. There's a chance you finish the module/beat the big bad, that the group TPK/you die or that the game get cancelled sadly. So i'd enjoy the moment instead of thinking about too far in the future. Something could also happen to the half-orc (a plague, another army wins against his, his second in command kill him in his sleep)

Not sure how your character would react to the solution, but there's also the possibility of ressurection/reincarnate after he kills you. Or to ressurect/reincarnate the Orog to erase the debt.

To quote my DM, Azerag, (Orog's son), bore every bit of his father's ferocity and brutish cunning melded with the intellect and adaptability of his human mother- which is how, despite being something of a pariah early in his life, he managed to retain his position of his superiority after his father's death.

But, yeah... as much as I liked seeing Wistan stick to his principles, I was conflicted as a player because I didn't want him to die. Now I'm just looking for ways to circumvent the effects of Rage.

[MrStabby]

I think it's more on part of the DM wanting to induce tension, but also a lack of preparedness on his part. He himself told me after the session that he'd had a sneaking suspicion that Wistan would pull something like that, but had dismissed the possibility as too unlikely to pull out a new character sheet on the fly. He's fudged stuff before, but seeing how Wistan has been consistently kicking ass more or less since Level 1, perhaps he'd tried to introduce a character who equally emphasized martial perfection as a temporary adversary, or something.

I'm more or less hoping that Ninja_Prawn is right and the DM will stall his development and enable a fairer fight in the years to come.



DID manage to put the frightened condition on him with Menacing Attack. Capitalized on it with a few good hits of my own, but it's more of a damage issue than anything else. Halving all oncoming damage with Rage is pretty potent... I'm wondering if there's feasible method of countering that, perhaps with a magical item, if such a thing is even possible.
So if frightened he can't move towards you. Sounds like you should be able to eat away at his rages and use some javalins at this stage?

[hymer]

Now I'm just looking for ways to circumvent the effects of Rage.

Mainly, you can end rage by not fighting for one round. If the barbarian takes no damage and makes no attacks in a round, the rage ends. So if you can get away from him for just a moment, maybe a few times until he runs out of rages...
So movement speed increases for you and breaking it for your enemy are things you could look into.

Edit:
So if frightened he can't move towards you.

Yes, this!

[GriffinSanders]

You guys might be onto something. Thanks for the advice!

[JellyPooga]

Now I'm just looking for ways to circumvent the effects of Rage.

Don't deal bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage? Go on a quest for a lightsaber Sun Blade; two years is plenty of time to seek out such a relic and train yourself up to a higher level.

Hell, if you really want to commit to the whole "I've got two years to fight this guy and it's all I care about", take a level or four of Ranger; Favoured Enemy (Orc), Natural Explorer (Whatever terrain your nemesis lives in), Colossus Slayer and Hunters Mark all sound appropriate for A) a character prone to challenging people to duals and B) someone who is dedicating himself to fighting this one orc.

[Temperjoke]

First, I have to agree with the others. You did nothing wrong. You played your character beautifully. I know this because you made a choice to do what your character would do, regardless of how stupid it was to the player. Now, you have added to your character's story. You have given him a personal challenge, a personal enemy beyond the BBEG of the week. This is how you see development happen, and in the long run, I think it will be more satisfactory than if you and the party had dogpiled him from the outset.

Secondly, 2 years can be plenty of time, in-game. Your character has a purpose now, so between small adventures, him constantly training to improve himself physically is not out of the question. So even if you have small timeskips, now there is justification why your character(s) might continue to level a little outside of conflict, because they're practicing their skills.

Thirdly, I don't know if you've considered multi-classing, but I think your character would be an ideal candidate to become an "Oath of the Crown" paladin. It's in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, and it's a paladin who is sworn to civilization, honor, sometimes a king, sometimes to a country; in any case, your character is my idea of the definition of that sort of paladin.

TENETS OF THE CROWN
The tenets of the Oath of the Crown are often set by the sovereign to which their oath is sworn, but generally emphasize the following tenets.

Law. The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.

Loyalty. Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.

Courage. You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming
odds. If you don't act, then who will?

Responsibility. You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.

EDIT: Fourthly, 2 years is a long time for NPCs too. However, instead of improving himself, your enemy is probably facing challenges from other orcs on a semi-regular basis. It wouldn't be unusual for him to have changed his fighting approach during that time, based on his encounters, or have received an injury that affects his stamina or movement during that time. In any case, your DM has options to make the fight a more even match when you next encounter him.

[NecroDancer]

Luckily, your an adventurer so in two years time you should have progresses to a pretty high level or at least found some magic items. Worst case scenario you need to break your promise and cheat to win (because would your character risk the lives of the villagers just to maintain his honor?).

[sumg]

Rage is easily dealt with, if you are going full martial. I'm assuming you are going with sword and board since you mentioned huscarls. Before the match, declare that the fight is manoamano, meaning no ranged weapons.

I assume you have trip attack (one of THE best maneuvers as a battlemaster, so you should have it anyways). Land your hit, make him prone, take the disadvantage AoO from him and RUN for one round to forcefully end his rage. The beauty of this is that once you land a hit, he's gonna go prone no matter what, so have something ready to stack your attack roll or something.
Save your superiority dice until all his rage runs out. You can also do the same with menacing attack as mentioned above.

Alternatively

Get the Shield Master feat, shove, shove, shove until he's on the ground, then run. You probably won't need all 3 tries, but you never know how his athletic roll match up against yours. Run and wait until his rage ends.

This is the literal meaning of tactical retreat, if argued otherwise, just remember that a knight don't walk up to a dragon to have a brawl with it.


If you are going magic, well, there's there's just too many spells to deal with him depending on which multiclass and how many levels you gain in that 2 years ig time, so kinda pointless to list them all.

[MrStabby]

I am not sure opposed strength checks is the way to go vs a barbarian.

[Mr Adventurer]

This guy sounds like he was built with PC levels. This is not how things are done in 5e. No wonder the fight was awkward.

[DracoKnight]

This guy sounds like he was built with PC levels. This is not how things are done in 5e. No wonder the fight was awkward.

That is not true. If it was, there wouldn't be a section of the DMG for giving Monsters class levels.

Aside from that, I think that the DM, actually built out this NPC as a character. Or, at least that's the impression I got.

[SharkForce]

yeah, 2 years is a long time for an adventurer. you may not even be alive by the time you're supposed to duel him anyways.

but the advice to force out the rages and then make him unable to attack you is pretty solid. you can throw hand axes (or whatever) at him and still use menacing strike, by the way.

[Larpus]

As others have mentioned, your character is fine.

In fact, more than fine, he's his own character, proof of this is that he's now going to some trouble due to his own decisions based on his conviction, instead of simply going with the flow.

2 years in-game is plenty of time, unless you have your character stay at the inn eating pork and drinking beer you'll likely have at least those 3 levels under your belt by then.

And now that your DM knows you'll be going one-on-one, he'll likely match the NPC's level to yours (in case you out-leveled him and he still wants you to have a challenge) when it comes time to the bout and have the winner take the potatoes.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

TL;DR: Have made a sworn enemy

That too. But what you've mostly made is a plot hook, and an awesome one at that. The GM could make him turn up in a bar, there could be whispered rumors about him, he could attack the villages again. Or maybe your bands will be forced to work together to take down the armies of the dragon king almost two years from now. Will there still be a final confrontation after that? I sure hope so. After the victory has been celebrated and all the warriors have left the two of you stand alone in a foggy clearing, circling each other like wolves, weapons at the ready, both with a whole bag of tricks up your sleeves thought up with only one goal in mind: winning this fight. I'm getting chilld just thinking about it. By that point you're probably at the end of the campaign anyway. The only thing left to do is to write the final chapter in your characters story, the one that turns a man into a legend, no matter what happens.

TLDR: This is not a problem.

[Kane0]

As a player this is pretty much the best problem you could have.

Two years is plenty of time for interesting things to happen. If the DM wants to play it straight 2 years is more than enough for the two of you to equalize in order to have the fair fight you intend.
If he's feeling inspired there will be some twists and turns that force you two to encounter each other before then, either for better or worse.

Don't sweat it.

[rexx1888]

side note to multiclassing paladin, though you lose your extra attacks, at second level you can pick up a smite spell with psychic damage, which is the single dam type no barbarian can ignore. so, 2 levels of paladin would likely have put you on par with rageaholic orc brain :P

course you lose alot of the goodies by multiclassing paladin but what ya gon do yo

[the secret fire]

Dude, you've got two years. If you train hard, you could be level 20 before you meet again. Anything is possible!

He's gonna need a montage...montage!

And perhaps some boars...and hot pockets. Bathroom breaks optional.

[Ninja_Prawn]

He's gonna need a montage...montage!

#Even Rocky had a montage#

[Sjappo]

Two years of game-time is a long time. By that time you should have finished LMoP handily and you might be ready to retire Wistan

So, in two years time Wistan does the honorable thing, seeks out Azerag, bows his knee and offers him his life. Bards will sing, maidens will weep, legends are made.